Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Doesn't really help your case when Nadal's RG 2014 was miles better than any other clay tournament he played that year. And lots of players win match points by double faults.
Was 2014-2016 a weaker span or is it a myth?
- Thread starter NoleFam
- Start date
duaneeo
Legend
But you compared 2014 with 2005, and there's no comparison between 2005 Nadal on clay and the 2014 version.
And, lots of players have not won championship point at a slam by a double fault.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Why specifically championship point?
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Ultimately competition in the big 4 era needs to be seen as how much threat did the top player face throughout the year.
2007, decent because both Roger and Rafa were at good levels for a lot of the year.
2008 was better with Nole turning in his first prime year, Nadal peaking, Roger starting to lose a bit of his earlier inhuman footwork and explosiveness but still playing a very good level.
2009 was one of the best years because it was Roger’s last prime year, Nadal was peak in the first half, Nole was very strong in patches and weak in others, Delpo exploded in a big way, and Soderling was playing at a great level. Murray was strong as well vs the field, and the decade’s gatekeeper type players were more or less all prime age.
2011 was pretty strong year with peak Nole, slightly below peak Nadal, and a pretty good Federer at some of the big tournaments.
2012 was great at the top. Probably the best for big 4 spread. Nadal adapted to Nole tactically a bit giving us that brutal AO final. Roger produced some vintage tennis in the later rounds of Wimbledon. Nadal bounced back a little bit confidence wise on Clay. Murray peaked for the Olympics and US open.
2010/13, weak probably. 13 still saw a pretty good Nole and Murray.
2014, was weak. Murray had undergone back surgery. Nadal was a shadow of himself after the AO. Terrible Nadal played literally vomiting Djokovic at RG. Federer was a shadow of himself but was pretty clearly the second best player for the y
2015 was even worse tbh. Nole was amazing but played a very declined Federer as his main rival. Nadal was basically out of it all year and Murray wasn’t back. Only Wawrinka randomly peaking prevented the farce from being completed a CGYS.
2016, true inflation era begins, after RG none of the big 3 are in their prime and yet big 4 players continue to win almost everything to this day. Gen Useless and Nextgen still missing. They’re too busy with their smartphone addictions to put in the work or develop the necessary mentality I gusss
2007, decent because both Roger and Rafa were at good levels for a lot of the year.
2008 was better with Nole turning in his first prime year, Nadal peaking, Roger starting to lose a bit of his earlier inhuman footwork and explosiveness but still playing a very good level.
2009 was one of the best years because it was Roger’s last prime year, Nadal was peak in the first half, Nole was very strong in patches and weak in others, Delpo exploded in a big way, and Soderling was playing at a great level. Murray was strong as well vs the field, and the decade’s gatekeeper type players were more or less all prime age.
2011 was pretty strong year with peak Nole, slightly below peak Nadal, and a pretty good Federer at some of the big tournaments.
2012 was great at the top. Probably the best for big 4 spread. Nadal adapted to Nole tactically a bit giving us that brutal AO final. Roger produced some vintage tennis in the later rounds of Wimbledon. Nadal bounced back a little bit confidence wise on Clay. Murray peaked for the Olympics and US open.
2010/13, weak probably. 13 still saw a pretty good Nole and Murray.
2014, was weak. Murray had undergone back surgery. Nadal was a shadow of himself after the AO. Terrible Nadal played literally vomiting Djokovic at RG. Federer was a shadow of himself but was pretty clearly the second best player for the y
2015 was even worse tbh. Nole was amazing but played a very declined Federer as his main rival. Nadal was basically out of it all year and Murray wasn’t back. Only Wawrinka randomly peaking prevented the farce from being completed a CGYS.
2016, true inflation era begins, after RG none of the big 3 are in their prime and yet big 4 players continue to win almost everything to this day. Gen Useless and Nextgen still missing. They’re too busy with their smartphone addictions to put in the work or develop the necessary mentality I gusss
duaneeo
Legend
You said to think of Rafa's 2014 Roland Garros. I don't think it was a strong Nadal who won the title that year. Djokovic double-faulting on championship point says more about how weak he (Nole) was in the final.
Calling 2013-2015 weak isn’t based on many facts. You have only basically touched on some players and ignored the rest. 2007 was certainly above decent as well.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Murray was back in 2015. He played at a very good level.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2014-2016 was on the same level as 2004-2006 more or less. I don't see what makes the former stronger than the latter besides personal bias.
A lot of people think 2004-06 was stronger as well. Read metsmans post.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
ForehandRF
Legend
Put 2007 out there too with 2008-2012/2013.The fact that Roger lost WB with 9-7 in the 5th doesn't make 2008 stronger than 2007.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
And neither should the loss to Novak at the AO. Otherwise 2005 has to be considered strong too.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Finals between Big3
2004 - 0
2005 - 1
2006 - 5
2007 - 8
2008 - 5
2009 - 6
2010 - 4
2011 - 8
2012 - 6
2013 - 5
2014 - 6
2015 - 9
2016 - 1
2017 - 3
2018 - 1
2019 - 3
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
That's better.
RS
Bionic Poster
Nadal was not in-form in 2015 until the indoor swing so it makes no sense to use the big 3 as a label that year.
And since when was tennis only about 3 players meeting in finals?
Your stats make 2007 and 2011 look the best since the big 3 were all playing well in those years.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
While that's also true, Big 3 stats are generally much better than Big 4 stats, which is what Lew was trying to improve on.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
What stat do you think is the best to define the strength of an year?
RS
Bionic Poster
Strength of field is a opinion it cannot be proven that is why people never stop debating it so no one stat can do it IMO .
I was only pointing out that you focus a lot on 3 players when in 2015 one of those 3 was not a huge factor for parts of the year.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
But Djokovic and Federer (and Murray) were damn good to make up for it.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe on hard and grass, but I feel like the clay competition was really lacking that year.
RS
Bionic Poster
Murray and Federer and even more so Djokovic were good/great in 2015 but Nadal was involved in that stat. Wawrinka was quite good too in 2015.
RS
Bionic Poster
RG 2015 was amazing maybe one of the best but the masters finals on clay you could be right.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Average Recent ELO rating of the best five players (since 2003):
2015 - 2,528
2012 - 2,512
2013 - 2,505
2011 - 2,490
2014 - 2,478
2009 - 2,472
2010 - 2,446
2016 - 2,441
2008 - 2,422
2019 - 2,414
2005 - 2,412
2018 - 2,405
2007 - 2,400
2017 - 2,384
2006 - 2,374
2004 - 2,353
2003 - 2,329
2015 - 2,528
2012 - 2,512
2013 - 2,505
2011 - 2,490
2014 - 2,478
2009 - 2,472
2010 - 2,446
2016 - 2,441
2008 - 2,422
2019 - 2,414
2005 - 2,412
2018 - 2,405
2007 - 2,400
2017 - 2,384
2006 - 2,374
2004 - 2,353
2003 - 2,329
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, Stan showed up big time that day.
RS
Bionic Poster
Do you think any year in history was better or can be argued to be better than 2015?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
2009, 2011, 2012 are among the best in this era too.
For other eras it's hard to compare.
Federer was good in BO3 but useless at slams, choking leads and BPs opportunities everywhere. Murray was equally useless. Neither could even make it to 5 sets.
Wawrinka saved it from being one of the weakest years in history for slam wins.
RS
Bionic Poster
Yes it is hard to compare eras. The late 1970s-mid 1990s was a great span though with lots of good years.
Of those years IMO 2007-2008 are in the mix with 2009/2011-2012.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
And 2013 imo, though it was definitely a drop down from 2012 with Federer not in the mix.
RS
Bionic Poster
2013 was far better for the individual competition the number 1/2 faced than as a whole. Still it was a good year.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Slam matches won by Big3:
2011 - 68
2008 - 66
2007 - 65
2010 / 2019 - 64
2012 / 2014 - 57
2009 / 2015 / 2018 - 56
2006 - 53
2013 - 51
2017 - 50
2005 - 42
2016 - 36
2004 - 25
2003 - 16
This should show that years like 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019 considered weak by Djokovic's haters were still stronger than 2003-06.
2011 - 68
2008 - 66
2007 - 65
2010 / 2019 - 64
2012 / 2014 - 57
2009 / 2015 / 2018 - 56
2006 - 53
2013 - 51
2017 - 50
2005 - 42
2016 - 36
2004 - 25
2003 - 16
This should show that years like 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019 considered weak by Djokovic's haters were still stronger than 2003-06.
No, big 3 didn’t exist in 2003-2006.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
That's why those years are weaker than 2014-19.
2017-2019 is in a class on its own along with 2000-02. Young talent is not performing well that is part of the reason the big 3 are as good as they are these days it is skewing the numbers and making them look better. 2014-2015 was not weak by any metric though. The big 3 would more problems if the young players were better like when Nadal and Djokovic pushed Federer out. I don’t think 2003-06 is worse than 2016-19 even though later years showed a clear improvement from 2003-06.
Blanket statement, not based on any facts at all.
ForehandRF
Legend
Tennis is much more than BIG3.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Big3 are quite important.
Meles
Bionic Poster
For the Big 4 it was. Murray under knife in late 2013 and not playing well at all in 2014, really until the end of 2015 perhaps. Backerer in 2013. Nadal awful 2015-2016. That was a step back at the very top from 2011-2013. Peak stats for Murray and Djoko during the most controversial part of this period 2015-2016, so it wasn't that weak. And most of the time 3 of the big 4 up and running. Late 2016 was certainly weak with Nole hitting the skids and Fedal out.For the last couple of years, I have been hearing on this site how weak 2014-2016 was. It seems to be a pattern where fans sound off that a certain group of years were weak when it is a player other than their favorite that is dominating and I have heard this from all sides, whether it is 2006, 2010 or 2015. Regarding the years in question, I wanted to delve further into this with more substantial evidence. It's easy to just say an era was weak without any proof to back up that claim and it's better to have numbers and stats at the very least to support your view. Numbers are more concrete and are not subjective like the "eye test" commonly is. So below is a compiled list of the most dominant years in the last decade as well as the years between 2014 and 2017, with the most important stats from the year end top 10 from each of those years. There is an average underneath which only includes the players not highlighted in yellow and the average does not include the most dominant player(s)' stats of that season, in order to give a more accurate view of the level of the rest of the field.
Looking at just these years, it appears that 2015 actually was the best serving of the top 10 and 2011 was the best returning. It appears that serving has improved as the years progressed which confirms the theory that players in later years have been serving better than ever before. Also, both 2014 and 2015 has strong stats overall for the top 10 and does not show any slip in the level of play for those years. Personally, I thought both 2014 and 2015 was rather high quality tennis and never did understand the complaints that the competition was so weak. Where the level begins to dip is in 2016 where service games won and return games won decreased. This probably has a lot to do with Federer being out most of the year and no longer in the top 10. Then, it is a more significant decrease in 2017 in basically every stat across the board with both the return and serving stats being at the lowest of any of the named years. This is really is not a surprise since 4 of the top 5 went AWOL and are MIA from the top 10 altogether, and left the field in somewhat disarray. So, in conclusion I see no evidence to call 2014 or 2015 weak years and only 2016 and especially 2017 qualify. This actually follows the ELO model which shows the dip happening in 2016 and a more noticeable dip in 2017. Now, this does not show the stats for the overall field beyond the top 10, because that would be too difficult to compile, but it does show enough to show trends within the top players. Feel free to chime in but let's be civil and have a real in depth discussion on this.
Meles
Bionic Poster
First year of Diamond Age so far for hard court points won the goatiest 
:
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Late 2016 was of course not up to par and the stats posted pretty much reflect 2016 hitting the skids. I thought 2014 was a pretty good year, and rather strong at points throughout, and 2015 was decent.
duaneeo
Legend
2006 is greatly underrated. It had two strong/consistent top guns, top players who were healthy, and a strong variety of contemporaries and young guns.
2014's top players were off (Djokovic), absent/injured (Nadal for the 2nd half of the year), erratic (Federer), or suffering (Murray, who didn't make a slam or Masters final). The AO finalist was injured, the RG finalist double-faulted on championship point, the Wimbledon finalist had slamidous, the USO finalists no comment, the WTF finalist didn't play, the LostGens were reaching their primes, and there were no strong showings by NextGens.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
In 2014 there were lots of good players, maybe even better than 2009.
The #7-12 of this year all set the record of the most ATP points for their position in a season (since 2009)
#7 Berdych 4,600
#8 Raonic 4,440
#9 Cilic 4,150
#10 Ferrer 4,045
#11 Dimitrov 3,645
#12 Tsonga 2,740
I'm sure @NatF will like this.
The #7-12 of this year all set the record of the most ATP points for their position in a season (since 2009)
#7 Berdych 4,600
#8 Raonic 4,440
#9 Cilic 4,150
#10 Ferrer 4,045
#11 Dimitrov 3,645
#12 Tsonga 2,740
I'm sure @NatF will like this.
It is scary how well the top opponents performed in the Djokovic era. Supposedly it was "weak". At least this thread is reasonable.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Don't know about better than 2009 but I do think it was a good year with lots of good/dangerous players in the wings
RS
Bionic Poster
2017 started off well with AO/IW/Miami then it went down after the clay season. It is not the most competitive year but not as bad as you are claiming. Shanghai was good in 2017 as well as was Madrid.
No year is **** IMO even 2002 which is probably the worst year of this era. Only relatively weaker and stronger years.
RS
Bionic Poster
2017 was a weaker year for sure but it started of well but I wouldn’t say it was **** still with the Fedal comeback. The field started to take big big drop in 2016 and a bigger one in 2017-2018. This year seems to be better IMO.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Good point. Nadal was obviously better at Roland Garros 2014 than at Roland Garros 2005, just as almost all 28 year olds are better than they were at 19.
