What happened to Djokovic between 2008 and 2011?

Sunny014

Legend
As usual, Roger wins all hypotheticals but in reality he lost key matches at his peak to Nadal and Safin and Del Potro and then in his later prime to Djokovic

What key matches ? dont talk nonsense, lol

Law of averages stopped him
Law of averages says no human can win 6 slams 6 years on trot, so del potro was sent by nature to stop him at the USO once
Law of averages says no human can win 6 slams 6 years on trot, so Nadal was sent by nature to stop him on Grass once
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah @RelentlessAttack I'm aware of that interview and Becker/Djokovic's subsequent comments. Very ironically Boris Becker actually got fined in the 90s for accusing his opponent of doping lol. I think he accused Muster. Tbh I always thought Murray was the most likely of all of them to be on something, with his insane fitness and cross-training escapades in his prime. Who knows?

I will say they do get tested at every big tournament. Think it's like 50 times a year in total, and that is a fact. However, there are masking agents and I'm almost certain the top guys know about their tests weeks in advance so they are able to schedule around that.

What so many people forget is that Nadal's first FO opponent Puerta actually was doping, lol, like confirmed. It's funny because the subsequent Operaction Puerto in cycling and the Spanish federation (one of the reasons I am pretty sure Nadal has at least been offered the opportunity to dope, whether he has done so or not is unclear) came after Puerta so most get the two confused.

The existence of Puerta confirms that this was in the game long before the Big 3. So I believe it is still in the game, to what degree who knows. There are many articles out there claiming that there are undetectable compounds only available to top players, I have never felt swayed either way.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Murray gave an interview about this topic at one point. Some quotes:

Boris Becker personally came out and criticized Andy for making these comments.

Bit rich coming from Boris given his accusation that Muster must have been doping when he saved several match points and turned things round against Boris in their 1995 Monte Carlo final. (Muster promptly took a dope test which came back clear).

Also, never forget that Cilic was known to be doping the year before he won the USO in the "form of his life"

Cilic actually blamed his mother saying he had sent her to a pharmacy to buy some painkillers and she came back with something that had a banned substance among its ingredients. I'm not kidding!
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
What key matches ? dont talk nonsense, lol

Law of averages stopped him
Law of averages says no human can win 6 slams 6 years on trot, so del potro was sent by nature to stop him at the USO once
Law of averages says no human can win 6 slams 6 years on trot, so Nadal was sent by nature to stop him on Grass once

Look dude, we went over this in the other thread already. If you sleep better at night believing that Federer is a mythical hero who wins all theoretical matchups then feel free to do so, I really don't care lol
 

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
I’m 100% certain that Djokovic, Federer and Nadal’s TUEs included use of illegal PEDs (as that is literally the point of a TUE, no testing) and played a role in their resurgence post TUE.

Djokovic and Nadal seemed to be superhuman at their peaks, as did Murray.. not sure what exactly they were on but it does seem to be a special sauce of some sort. Then when Sharapova got popped for Meldonium I figured that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

I really don’t want to get into who is doping and who is not doping debate as I don’t know specifics, I do want to say that a lot of what they are doing (I.e. the personal chef, the egg Djokovic has, hyperbaric chambers, all of that) is only available to the top guys in the sport due to financial constraints. So it’s not necessary illegal to have an uneven playing field without drugs involved at all.
Fair enough. The public are always told it's due to injuries or they are skipping certain tournaments to prolong their careers.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
One thing is for certain though, and that is that TUEs are, not even basically, they are categorically legalized 'dope for free' cards handed out willingly and knowingly by the ITF.

I figure if they have breached this gap already to allow it into the game, then why stop here?
 

Genie Of the Bank

Hall of Fame
Switched racquet from Wilson to Head in 2009, lost serve and his flat forehand.


Laurence Shanet

, Former College/Satellite Tennis Player, Tennis Coach, USRSA Certified Stringer
Updated 1 year ago · Author has 1.2K answers and 4.8M answer views

Novak Djokovic switched from Wilson to Head in 2009 for the same reason that he originally switched from Head to Wilson several years before in 2006: because they paid him to do so. His endorsement contract with Wilson was expiring at the end of 2008, and Head was (wisely) willing to pay him more money to switch back over.
 

pj80

Legend
I wouldn't just make that up. Too specific. I did hear it from someone else who is ATP-adjacent.

I even said I suspected ALL of them before hearing the rumor. Right?

I also used to have "huge fan of Roger DelPo and Djoker" in my signature here but Novak's behavior has changed my perception of him. So I'm not that guy that just hates Novak because he beats Fedal or bc he's Serb.

You haven't even read the book yet you're defending everything reflexively.
I don't care about the book. I know and believe in what an holistic approach can do to improve overall health...not just athletic performance. But maybe I will read it eventually...
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Switched racquet from Wilson to Head in 2009, lost serve and his flat forehand.
Laurence Shanet
, Former College/Satellite Tennis Player, Tennis Coach, USRSA Certified Stringer
Updated 1 year ago · Author has 1.2K answers and 4.8M answer views

Novak Djokovic switched from Wilson to Head in 2009 for the same reason that he originally switched from Head to Wilson several years before in 2006: because they paid him to do so. His endorsement contract with Wilson was expiring at the end of 2008, and Head was (wisely) willing to pay him more money to switch back over.
Fed switched rackets in 2002 as well (from 85'' to 90'') and said it took about a year to get fully comfortable and see improvements in his game. This was the change from his juniors racket that he used to beat Sampras. I definitely think the racket had something to do with it.
 

pj80

Legend
To the contrary, I'm an actual qualified MD who saw hundreds of people come in asking about the gluten free trend around that time and none of them ever experienced those kinds of life changes nor did any major studies confirm the existence of a syndrome that could explain the degree of symptoms and improvement that Djokovic claimed. Guess what, that food trend died and pretty much no one comes in to ask about it. After gluten free was paleo, then keto, now plant based. Like I told the other dude, if you want to find the studies that prove me wrong and post them here, I'm waiting. Remember, Djokovic himself is the one who said he didn't have celiac disease
well I'm talking about gluten....just overall holistic approach to health. You are less likely to be prescribed drugs from a holistic doctor. But it is what it is, only the athletes themselves know what worked for them.
I believe Djoker's holistic approach is what reflects in his good performances
 

wangs78

Legend
He won his first slam at the 2008 Australian Open. That year was seen as a change of the guard, with Djokovic and Nadal winning 3 slams between them and Federer lucky to win 1 slam against an inexperienced Murray in the USO final.

But then Djokovic didn't do much between that 2008 AO win and his next slam win at the AO in 2011, a whole 3 years later. He reached some QFs and SFs, just 1 final (2010 USO).

What happened to him during those 3 years?
Todd Martin happened.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
well I'm talking about gluten....just overall holistic approach to health. You are less likely to be prescribed drugs from a holistic doctor. But it is what it is, only the athletes themselves know what worked for them.
I believe Djoker's holistic approach is what reflects in his good performances

You believe whatever suits your fancy about your favorite player, sorry to say but it’s a meaningless opinion. I don’t care either way because if it is happening there’s no way the ATP doesn’t know about it but I don’t like to see nonsense spread about magical diets
 

pj80

Legend
You believe whatever suits your fancy about your favorite player, sorry to say but it’s a meaningless opinion. I don’t care either way because if it is happening there’s no way the ATP doesn’t know about it but I don’t like to see nonsense spread about magical diets
well, your accusations without any proof are meaningless too. You believe whatever suits your fancy about the player you dislike. Fact is he has not failed any test Olympics or otherwise so it is what is...
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
well, your accusations without any proof are meaningless too. You believe whatever suits your fancy about the player you dislike. Fact is he has not failed any test Olympics or otherwise so it is what is...

I have already explained why the official story for the change in physical condition is necessarily false. The second half is knowing that PED use is rampant in pro sports which you’d know if you’ve either ever been close to any major professional or even minor league/college sports or just if you choose to go read about it. I can’t even put a multiple on how much greater plausibility my claims have compared to yours since yours have literally zero and mine are significantly plausible. You just “feel” your favorite wouldn’t lie to you lmfao
 

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
I have already explained why the official story for the change in physical condition is necessarily false. The second half is knowing that PED use is rampant in pro sports which you’d know if you’ve either ever been close to any major professional or even minor league/college sports or just if you choose to go read about it. I can’t even put a multiple on how much greater plausibility my claims have compared to yours since yours have literally zero and mine are significantly plausible. You just “feel” your favorite wouldn’t lie to you lmfao
What's your opinion of the big 3 being able to play at such a high level in their mid-late 30's? Djokovic 1 slam away from a calendar year grand slam at 34 years old. Nadal still head and shoulders above the competition at RG (apart from losing to Djokovic this year). Federer was doing very well up until the knee injury. It all seems to defy biology. 20 years ago, players were well past it by their mid 30's.
 

pj80

Legend
I have already explained why the official story for the change in physical condition is necessarily false. The second half is knowing that PED use is rampant in pro sports which you’d know if you’ve either ever been close to any major professional or even minor league/college sports or just if you choose to go read about it. I can’t even put a multiple on how much greater plausibility my claims have compared to yours since yours have literally zero and mine are significantly plausible. You just “feel” your favorite wouldn’t lie to you lmfao
well, Fed set the blueprint that you can perform high level and win slams well into your mid 30's. Why wouldn't a guy who takes good care of their nutrition and training do the same?
 

pj80

Legend
What's your opinion of the big 3 being able to play at such a high level in their mid-late 30's? Djokovic 1 slam away from a calendar year grand slam at 34 years old. Nadal still head and shoulders above the competition at RG (apart from losing to Djokovic this year). Federer was doing very well up until the knee injury. It all seems to defy biology. 20 years ago, players were well past it by their mid 30's.
players of the past lacked motivation that these dudes have. They also bought the idea that past the 30's you're too old to train and do well etc///
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
well, Fed set the blueprint that you can perform high level and win slams well into your mid 30's. Why wouldn't a guy who takes good care of their nutrition and training do the same?

You clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the sports experience to understand the magnitude of the shift that occurred in the 2010-11 offseason. Your point about playing into your 30s couldn’t be more irrelevant
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
and yet Novak was the youngest of all to reach 20 slams. Can you imagine if he didn't check out? He needs to maintain some balance in the Force :)
Is he though? He's about 8 months younger than Nadal, who won his last RG about 8 months before Djokovic's last Wimbledon. If he's really the youngest in achieving it, the difference in age with Nadal is pretty negligible.
 

pj80

Legend
You clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the sports experience to understand the magnitude of the shift that occurred in the 2010-11 offseason. Your point about playing into your 30s couldn’t be more irrelevant
it seems like neither do you. Just cause your friends were doping doesn't give you the right to accuse others of same...what about Fed's shift in results at the same age? 2003/2004
 

D.Nalby12

G.O.A.T.
- The breathing was an actual issue not just a meme. If you watch old clips it’s clear he actually does have sub-optimal breathing, gasping for air and not nasal breathing. This sounds ludicrous but in high level athletics it can make a large difference.

- as detailed above retooling the serve with Todd Martin from 09/10 wasn’t ideal. Would fall apart at least once a set in ‘09, and ended up hurting him in big matches

- lack of variety in his game compared to today, his use of angles and volleying wasn’t consistent

-PRIME Fedal has to be factored in here

-mental issues (seriously), lack of self belief after AO, lack of belief vs. Fedal and focus issues.
You could honestly boil it down to these only.

-looked like a kid, delayed physical maturity perhaps? He didn't have the supreme athleticism until late 2010/11

-Srdjan and family putting too much pressure on him from the stands ;)

-Not successful enough to get a free pass to use PEDs yet… ok nvm I’ve said too much.

Great post. Everything covered.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
it seems like neither do you. Just cause your friends were doping doesn't give you the right to accuse others of same...what about Fed's shift in results at the same age?

I have every right to call out nonsense claims about miracle diets explaining too-good-to-be-true increases in fitness. Fed’s change in results correlated with increasing homogenization of the courts and injuries to key generational rivals as well as improvement in his tactics and mentality, and was not based almost entirely on a dramatic change in physical fitness. Federer’s fitness was certainly underrated compared to Nadal but he was no iron man compared to his peers. Like I said earlier, it’s possible that the other guys aren’t clean either, there’s just no obvious turning point with a hilarious, obviously BS story that almost dares people to call it out
 

bnjkn

Professional
He was still growing as a player, he was yet to reach his prime.

2007 Djokovic had reached close to Federer's level at USO and it is true that with more experience he could have beaten Fed. The 2008 AO win was legit. He could have beaten a 100% healthy Fed by then just probably not in straight sets. He still lacked the Federer consistency. That was baby Djokovic, not the mental giant.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Is he though? He's about 8 months younger than Nadal, who won his last RG about 8 months before Djokovic's last Wimbledon. If he's really the youngest in achieving it, the difference in age with Nadal is pretty negligible.
Sure, not a huge difference but still the youngest
 

pj80

Legend
Is he though? He's about 8 months younger than Nadal, who won his last RG about 8 months before Djokovic's last Wimbledon. If he's really the youngest in achieving it, the difference in age with Nadal is pretty negligible.
DJoko was 34 and 2months, Rafa was 34 and 4 months when they won 20th/ Rog was 36 and 4 months
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Change of racket and change of serve, basically.


AO 2008 was a bit random. He played Tsonga in final, who is the lowest ranked player he's beaten in a slam final. Federer was ill and not at his best in SF.
It's not like he won many Masters between 2007 and 2010. Nadal and Federer were just better than him until late 2010, that's it. Djokovic probably has the record of numbers of weeks at #3.
There was a huge shift in late 2010, when he beat Federer in USO and won the Davis Cup.

AO 2008 certainly wasn't random after USO 2007, Montreal 2007, IW and Miami 2007 and then IW 2008 and Rome 2008. He only lost to Federer and Nadal at slams in that period.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Is Djokovic like 2-5000 in hypotetical matches?

Fed 4-0 in slam matches vs djoko in 07-09 apart from that AO 08 match when he was sick with mono.
When that OP posted garbage about fed being lucky in USO 08, I see you conveniently closed your eyes to that, ********. :)
 

Gonzo_style

Hall of Fame
Fed 4-0 in slam matches vs djoko in 07-09 apart from that AO 08 match when he was sick with mono.
When that OP posted garbage about fed being lucky in USO 08, I see you conveniently closed your eyes to that, ********. :)
Too much cow-kissing is bad for your brain
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Djokovic won 2 slam over a 2.5 years span in 2012-2014 too? So 2008-2010 doesn't look that odd.

Indeed, 2011 was great because he did it against a high powered field. But outside of that year, he had to wait until his 28-29 year season to get past 7 slams once his rivals had already declined heavily and had major injuries.
 

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
According to my always reliable sources, he eliminated all the gluten from his serve and shaved his head for David caps, or something of the sort.
 
D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
Indeed, 2011 was great because he did it against a high powered field. But outside of that year, he had to wait until his 28-29 year season to get past 7 slams once his rivals had already declined heavily and had major injuries.
You give Djokovic stick for competition but Nadal slam wins for a while have not really been tougher in terms toughness of competition.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He won his first slam at the 2008 Australian Open. That year was seen as a change of the guard, with Djokovic and Nadal winning 3 slams between them and Federer lucky to win 1 slam against an inexperienced Murray in the USO final.

But then Djokovic didn't do much between that 2008 AO win and his next slam win at the AO in 2011, a whole 3 years later. He reached some QFs and SFs, just 1 final (2010 USO).

What happened to him during those 3 years?
How was Federer lucky?
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Lucky that he didn't meet Nadal in the final. Murray beat a tired Nadal in the semis, allowing an easy win for Federer in the final. If he played Nadal, no chance of him winning that US Open.
But he beat Djokovic, didn't he? Was Djokovic also lucky that Tsonga took out Nadal at the AO?

And besides, if Nadal was tired as you say, what makes you think he would have beaten Federer if he couldn't beat Murray? I'd say Nadal was lucky not to take a beating from Fed before the AO.
 

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
But he beat Djokovic, didn't he? Was Djokovic also lucky that Tsonga took out Nadal at the AO?

And besides, if Nadal was tired as you say, what makes you think he would have beaten Federer if he couldn't beat Murray? I'd say Nadal was lucky not to take a beating from Fed before the AO.
He did beat Djokovic but Djokovic was still pretty young at that point, only 21 - younger than the age Federer won his first slam.

Because at that point, Nadal owned Federer. Federer had a complete mental block against him. There is no reason to think Federer would have beaten Nadal in that US Open final.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
He did beat Djokovic but Djokovic was still pretty young at that point, only 21 - younger than the age Federer won his first slam.

Because at that point, Nadal owned Federer. Federer had a complete mental block against him. There is no reason to think Federer would have beaten Nadal in that US Open final.

with a "complete mental block" against Nadal at his very best, fed took him to 9-7 in the 5th in Wim final.
vs a much worse Nadal, of course fed would beat him at USO 2008.
well, unless you are a bitterboy fed hater of a ******** - which you of course are.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He did beat Djokovic but Djokovic was still pretty young at that point, only 21 - younger than the age Federer won his first slam.

Because at that point, Nadal owned Federer. Federer had a complete mental block against him. There is no reason to think Federer would have beaten Nadal in that US Open final.
You can't have it both ways.

You're saying 2008 was the changing of the guard with Djokodal winning 3 slams, but then Djokovic conveniently was too young because Federer beat him?

Also, you're saying Nadal was tired at the USO. If he was tired and couldn't even get past Murray, how was he beating Fed?
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
You give Djokovic stick for competition but Nadal slam wins for a while have not really been tougher in terms toughness of competition.

All of the big 3 have benefitted due to the career inflation era, Djokovic just the most so. All 3 have also benefited greatly from homogenization and I’ve made this point repeatedly
 
D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
All of the big 3 have benefitted due to the career inflation era, Djokovic just the most so. All 3 have also benefited greatly from homogenization and I’ve made this point repeatedly
The point still holds that the amount Nadal has won in those era's is understated and he hasn't had it way tougher than Novak.
 

nolefam_2024

G.O.A.T.

Lol what is this stat? If Federer was winning just 66% even excluding clay that would mean he is absolute rubbish.

Just to compare Novak at same age between 2013 to 2019 won 91% slam matches outside clay. And that includes his 2 years where he was injured. Lol.

Redo the stats for 2007 to 2013.
 

Tony48

Legend
He was still young and developing. Between 2006-2008, we saw what he was capable of. But he was still inexperienced and hadn't yet put it all together. Not to mention that he was still contending with Federer and Nadal.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Lol what is this stat? If Federer was winning just 66% even excluding clay that would mean he is absolute rubbish.

Just to compare Novak at same age between 2013 to 2019 won 91% slam matches outside clay. And that includes his 2 years where he was injured. Lol.

Redo the stats for 2007 to 2013.

First of all this is % vs the top 10.

Secondly Federer's absolute peak ended by the ending of 07 and overall his peak ended in the beginning of 2010, plus 2 young ATGs below him and this is Nadal's peak, so isn't it natural that Fed is at 66 which is still above Nadal and slightly below Novak....

Plus Djokovic has been great on HCs from USO 2007 onwards till now, he is a hard courter, yet Fed's numbers r same as his, is that surprising?
 

Sunny014

Legend
Nadal absolutely had it tougher, he’s the only one whose entire prime overlapped with another prime ATG

He had it the easiest, overlap means they are periods where 1 atg is not at his best and nadal snaps wins vs them.

08-10 period was when Fed was going down and Novak was yet to reach his absolute peak, is it shocking that Nadal has 4 out of his 7 Non clay slams in this period?
 
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