what's the problem with USTA pro development!

tennisdad40

New User
I've been to few tennis camps mainly on one Westcoast. I listen to a few coaches say how they are very few good coaches In tennis in America compared to other countries and in some countries teaching tennis with out proper license is a misdemeanor. He also told a few parents they had a better chance of getting better instruction from you tube videos. Thought!!
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
I've been to few tennis camps mainly on one Westcoast. I listen to a few coaches say how they are very few good coaches In tennis in America compared to other countries and in some countries teaching tennis with out proper license is a misdemeanor. He also told a few parents they had a better chance of getting better instruction from you tube videos. Thought!!

US training is in terrible shape. All of tennis has turned to modern slow courts, yet in America is all fast hard courts, so guys in the US reach the pinnacle, while their European counterparts get their foundation on clay, so once an American goes pro he has a huge learning curve to adapt to slow courts including US Open, they know this but do nothing about it.

Also, those of you who vote for liberals, big Government, are you surprised that you need a LICENSE to teach tennis?

Third, players learn with large racquets and baseline play, the reason is that naïve parents want results, so if the coach did the right thing, started them on small racquets to get their fundamentals down it would take longer, but they'd be better players. It's easy to teach a kid with a huge racquet to hit from the baseline, the parents think "Oh look he's learning", coach gets paid.

Lastly it's our "Everyone is a winner, everyone gets a trophy" entitlement society, it's ruined kids. When I was a kid I trained like a maniac, ran 5 miles then played tennis because I wanted to WIN, there is no hunger, America has turned into a sissy society where we expect everything handed to us on a silver platter.
 

tennisdad40

New User
US training is in terrible shape. All of tennis has turned to modern slow courts, yet in America is all fast hard courts, so guys in the US reach the pinnacle, while their European counterparts get their foundation on clay, so once an American goes pro he has a huge learning curve to adapt to slow courts including US Open, they know this but do nothing about it.

Also, those of you who vote for liberals, big Government, are you surprised that you need a LICENSE to teach tennis?

Third, players learn with large racquets and baseline play, the reason is that naïve parents want results, so if the coach did the right thing, started them on small racquets to get their fundamentals down it would take longer, but they'd be better players. It's easy to teach a kid with a huge racquet to hit from the baseline, the parents think "Oh look he's learning", coach gets paid.

Lastly it's our "Everyone is a winner, everyone gets a trophy" entitlement society, it's ruined kids. When I was a kid I trained like a maniac, ran 5 miles then played tennis because I wanted to WIN, there is no hunger, America has turned into a sissy society where we expect everything handed to us on a silver platter.
Great post subline.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Great post subline.
Everything EXCEPT the court speed. We don't need clay. We just need coaches who will teach guys to hit backhands and returns of serve and worry less about ranking points. Every court in So Cal that gets resurfaced (that I play on - and I play at about 10 different venues, some private, most public) is now a grittier hard court.

The part of this I just laugh at - look at the top US males from the past 30 years. Who can the USTA take credit for? Pete and Andre were privately coached (then AA went to Nick's place). Sure, they played in USTA junior tournaments. So calm down people; either right now or soon, there will be some family with athletic genes, probably living in a warmer part of the US, with the resources to get their son good coaching, and we'll get another champion.
 

tennisdad40

New User
Everything EXCEPT the court speed. We don't need clay. We just need coaches who will teach guys to hit backhands and returns of serve and worry less about ranking points. Every court in So Cal that gets resurfaced (that I play on - and I play at about 10 different venues, some private, most public) is now a grittier hard court.

The part of this I just laugh at - look at the top US males from the past 30 years. Who can the USTA take credit for? Pete and Andre were privately coached (then AA went to Nick's place). Sure, they played in USTA junior tournaments. So calm down people; either right now or soon, there will be some family with athletic genes, probably living in a warmer part of the US, with the resources to get their son good coaching, and we'll get another champion.
Funny u mentioned that because I took my daughter to a couple so called top usta camps and It was a joke.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Funny u mentioned that because I took my daughter to a couple so called top usta camps and It was a joke.
Could you elaborate? How old is she? How long has she been playing and how does she stack up to her local peers? What were you expecting and what did the camp do (or not do) that made you call it a joke?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Off your high horse, grandpa, america is a society where opportunity has shrunk considerably and not even a living minimum wage is handed to anyone.

US training is in terrible shape. All of tennis has turned to modern slow courts, yet in America is all fast hard courts, so guys in the US reach the pinnacle, while their European counterparts get their foundation on clay, so once an American goes pro he has a huge learning curve to adapt to slow courts including US Open, they know this but do nothing about it.

Also, those of you who vote for liberals, big Government, are you surprised that you need a LICENSE to teach tennis?

Third, players learn with large racquets and baseline play, the reason is that naïve parents want results, so if the coach did the right thing, started them on small racquets to get their fundamentals down it would take longer, but they'd be better players. It's easy to teach a kid with a huge racquet to hit from the baseline, the parents think "Oh look he's learning", coach gets paid.

Lastly it's our "Everyone is a winner, everyone gets a trophy" entitlement society, it's ruined kids. When I was a kid I trained like a maniac, ran 5 miles then played tennis because I wanted to WIN, there is no hunger, America has turned into a sissy society where we expect everything handed to us on a silver platter.
 

tennisdad40

New User
Could you elaborate? How old is she? How long has she been playing and how does she stack up to her local peers? What were you expecting and what did the camp do (or not do) that made you call it a joke?
She's 14 now she's been playing 2 years. I took her to what was suppose to be a camp for more serious players and it was like a after school program for elementary school the coaches to me were just goofing around with a kids. I train mma fighters/boxers so understand the coaching aspect of coaching and that what I witness wasn't it. I guess what I'm saying is they seem to recreational coaches not coaches for future champions. My plays well. She box and she ran track she extremely athletic and she understands the game. Low margin of errors are her biggest issues. It's gonna take time.. but it's hard finding a coach like a rich Massey ect
 

merwy

G.O.A.T.
Everything EXCEPT the court speed. We don't need clay. We just need coaches who will teach guys to hit backhands and returns of serve and worry less about ranking points. Every court in So Cal that gets resurfaced (that I play on - and I play at about 10 different venues, some private, most public) is now a grittier hard court.
This discussion reminds me of something that Darren Cahill posten in the "Ask ProTennisCoach" thread. He thought that it was a problem that they mostly play on the same surface in the US.
That said, there are many differences. The ability to compete on a variety of different surfaces against a variety of different playing styles is part of being a pro. A lot of the college matches are played on similar surfaces against similar styles of play and a lot of the players become too one dimensional leaving holes in their games that are exploited at the pro level. If you have a weakness at college level it can be quite easy covered up against opposition that either doesn't have the tools to get to them, or doesn't have the scouting resources to discover them. At the pro level, all the players and coaches get ample opportunity to see how you handle different situations and test your ability to problem solve. Once a weakness is exploited, it becomes common knowledge to most players and coaches. It's then up to that player to evolve their game and sometimes you are talking about a 22 or 23 year old making radical changes, and that's not easy.

The ability to move on clay is also a big issue. Clay is widely regarded as the best surface to build leg strength, work strategy as you construct game plans, learn to defend efficiently and develop weapons to finish points. Moving defensively and offensively on clay is an art form and not something that comes easily if you don't spend time training on the surface. It's part of the reason why players from Europe have dominated the men's game in the last 8 years as they are brought up on clay, for the most part.

I play in Europe and I constantly play on different surfaces. Mostly on clay, but also a lot on (artificial) grass and in the winter we play indoors on hardcourt or carpet. These various surfaces play vastly different and it really takes some time to get used to them. I can't imagine suddenly playing on clay for the first time after playing my entire life on HC.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
There are like 20 us women in the top 100 so whatever problems usta is having its not affecting them. Why do people always moan about the usta when Germany and sweden are dead zones for mens tennis as well. They use to be powers. Aussie tennis was a disaster for 15 years and only recently has made a comeback. Relax.
 

big ted

Legend
correct me if im wrong but when bollietteri academy was making champions in the 80s wasnt it on har-tru clay? and then when img took over it eventually went to hard courts? i think like other posters said, learning on clay is an advantage...
 

tennisdad40

New User
There are like 20 us women in the top 100 so whatever problems usta is having its not affecting them. Why do people always moan about the usta when Germany and sweden are dead zones for mens tennis as well. They use to be powers. Aussie tennis was a disaster for 15 years and only recently has made a comeback. Relax.
There 11 us women in the top hundred to date.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
There 11 us women in the top hundred to date.
Sands is 101 and will be there after the open. That makes 12 find me another country with more. This is all bs. People refuse to look at the good things and always look at fhe negatives. The new usta facility will have all the courts. Again we are not the only tennis power having issues.
 

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
All-time great talent doesn't get produced on an assembly-line according to a predictable schedule. There are gaps in time -- always have been, always will be.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Good question. This post was based off a few articles I read reviews recently. I just wanted to get people opinion. :)
No big deal. Its a legit question but there are many answers. Champions dont pop out of woodwork. If that was the case you would see 20 young Spaniards poping up after nadal.
 

tennisdad40

New User
Sands is 101 and will be there after the open. That makes 12 find me another country with more. This is all bs. People refuse to look at the good things and always look at fhe negatives. The new usta facility will have all the courts. Again we are not the only tennis power having issues.
This was nothing more than a simple post based off the interview that Patrick McEnroe did a few months ago about the usta development of pro tennis players.
 

tennisdad40

New User
No big deal. Its a legit question but there are many answers. Champions dont pop out of woodwork. If that was the case you would see 20 young Spaniards poping up after nadal.
Haha.yeah you are 100 percent right. It's a beautiful thing for one to express is view point on certain subjects.. :)
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
This was nothing more than a simple post based off the interview that Patrick McEnroe did a few months ago about the usta development of pro tennis players.
Ya and like many guys he is kinda full of bs. He had plenty of development and was just an average player. If keys or stephens makes a run at a slam and based on recent wta result that a strong possibility considering who has made good runs he will eat his words. Italy hasnt produced a male grand slam champion in forever and the guys eat dirt over there.
 

tennisdad40

New User
Ya and like many guys he is kinda full of bs. He had plenty of development and was just an average player. If keys or stephens makes a run at a slam and based on recent wta result that a strong possibility considering who has made good runs he will eat his words. Italy hasnt produced a male grand slam champion in forever and the guys eat dirt over there.
Francesca Schivon 2010.. that I can remember!!
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Francesca Schivon 2010.. that I can remember!!
True and pannetta today right. Both never even got to a slam final till their 30s. Both trained clay since they were in diapers. Now give keys a few more years and we will see who developed better. And italian men? Well like i said they eat dirt but cant hardly win a tournament let alone a slam.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Sands is 101 and will be there after the open. That makes 12 find me another country with more. This is all bs. People refuse to look at the good things and always look at fhe negatives. The new usta facility will have all the courts. Again we are not the only tennis power having issues.
Population in millions from 2014:
Spain 47
France 66
Italy 60
Germany 80
GB 64

Total: 317 million

US: 319 million

And that's not including the rather small country of Switzerland.

Look at it that way for awhile.

Also, some of my students don't have a whole package of cable, so they can't even watch the USO. Everything is on ESPN now.

Tennis is simply not a big sport in the US. Sadly...
 

tennisdad40

New User
Population in millions from 2014:
Spain 47
France 66
Italy 60
Germany 80
GB 64

Total: 317 million

US: 319 million

And that's not including the rather small country of Switzerland.

Look at it that way for awhile.

Also, some of my students don't have a whole package of cable, so they can't even watch the USO. Everything is on ESPN now.

Tennis is simply not a big sport in the US. Sadly...
I had to upgrade my cable package for tennis channel smh.. extra 29.99 so my daughter can watch..
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Population in millions from 2014:
Spain 47
France 66
Italy 60
Germany 80
GB 64

Total: 317 million

US: 319 million

And that's not including the rather small country of Switzerland.

Look at it that way for awhile.

Also, some of my students don't have a whole package of cable, so they can't even watch the USO. Everything is on ESPN now.

Tennis is simply not a big sport in the US. Sadly...
So what? India over a billion china over a billion look at it that way. There are four major sports over here where athletes get paid millions plus soccer. Tennis is a niche sport and always will be. We have had our ups and downs and will continue to do so. Dont make excuses for germany and sweden when they also produced amazing champions like edberg and becker and wilander and borg and graf and others but gee since germany only has 80 million people thats an excuse.
 

Lukhas

Legend
Apparently, bad luck.

250 to 350€ yearly club membership (for adults) in France gets you: one 1h30 group lesson and almost unlimited court time (you still have to take a reservation) on decently maintained courts. OTOH, there are basically about zero public courts. When I see the prices of court time in decent facilities in the US as well as the price of coaching, no wonder YouTube coaching suddenly became a thing, among others. Don't worry for us, men French tennis' future is looking rather bleak honestly while the women side (well, Garcia, Mladenovic and Dodin) is starting to pick up after years of struggles and not so great coaching to be honest.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
I give my best students metal racquets and ps85s. Once a month for challenge play. Everyone has fun.
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
Off your high horse, grandpa, america is a society where opportunity has shrunk considerably and not even a living minimum wage is handed to anyone.

Can you say something that makes sense so I can respond to it? By the way, 38 years old, not quite a grandpa yet, but you seem like the kind of person who knows everything, truth or not.
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
Everything EXCEPT the court speed. We don't need clay. We just need coaches who will teach guys to hit backhands and returns of serve and worry less about ranking points. Every court in So Cal that gets resurfaced (that I play on - and I play at about 10 different venues, some private, most public) is now a grittier hard court.

The part of this I just laugh at - look at the top US males from the past 30 years. Who can the USTA take credit for? Pete and Andre were privately coached (then AA went to Nick's place). Sure, they played in USTA junior tournaments. So calm down people; either right now or soon, there will be some family with athletic genes, probably living in a warmer part of the US, with the resources to get their son good coaching, and we'll get another champion.

Don't follow your logic friend, Brad Gilbert named lack of slow courts, Clay as the NUMBER ONE reason Americans aren't bringing out champions.
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
The problem with people in this country stems from the belief that 'America is the greatest country in the world !!' which they'll repeat with zero basis or proof. The usual response when someone questions this is 'then go live somewhere else!', 'you're with use or against us', which is exactly the reason everything is going to hell here. The first step to solving anything is admitting we have a problem, an no one will, whether its sports or the economy or healthcare or a million other issues.

Its all about the money and commercialism here. Tennis is an individual sport and you can't teach hunger, desire, hard work and talent, no matter how much money you spend. LTA has the exact same problem but were lucky to have found Muzza.

Individual sports like tennis will never be popular in school, will never have the money attraction of big team sports, so there's little incentive for a player to strive to succeed.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
I've been to few tennis camps mainly on one Westcoast. I listen to a few coaches say how they are very few good coaches In tennis in America compared to other countries and in some countries teaching tennis with out proper license is a misdemeanor. He also told a few parents they had a better chance of getting better instruction from you tube videos. Thought!!
This is true

But it also has to do with the way america perceives sports and effort

In America if you don't feel like you're trying then you're not tying hard enough


Many coaches don't teach proper 1 handed backhands, they teach baseball swings for backhands. Even at some of the top academies, that's why its good enough to get them atp points but not good enough to get them paid

Tennis strokes at the highest level are almost effortless, very little strain in muscles when you play right.

In America if you don't feel strain you aren't ttryinf hard enough

Even bolliteiri isn't a top coach, he basically monopolized tennis in the 90s

If you take the best kids and get them to come for free, and they're constantly playing eachother, of course they'll get better!!

But not because he ever gave them good technique



If he was a good coach he woulda given sharapova a serve motion that wouldn't sestroy Her shoulder, as well as a kick serve.

Why does a 6 4 woman not have the best serve in the game.... And instead a poor excuse of a second serve
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Even granting that some of the other once dominant tennis forces have slipped into decline, the fact that there has been no slam contender from USA since Roddick is strange given how consistently it produced slam winners in the past. Maybe tennis is not as big in USA as it once was (I ask as a non American)? Even Sweden had Soderling, Czech Republic Berdych, Croatia Cilic, etc. USA's slide is only matched by Germany's. Aus had Hewitt in the mix and seem to have staged a recovery with the younger generation.
 

tennisdad40

New User
The problem with people in this country stems from the belief that 'America is the greatest country in the world !!' which they'll repeat with zero basis or proof. The usual response when someone questions this is 'then go live somewhere else!', 'you're with use or against us', which is exactly the reason everything is going to hell here. The first step to solving anything is admitting we have a problem, an no one will, whether its sports or the economy or healthcare or a million other issues.

Its all about the money and commercialism here. Tennis is an individual sport and you can't teach hunger, desire, hard work and talent, no matter how much money you spend. LTA has the exact same problem but were lucky to have found Muzza.

Individual sports like tennis will never be popular in school, will never have the money attraction of big team sports, so there's little incentive for a player to strive to succeed.
I agree but it is the number one highest paid sports for women. From my humble research . Please note that I'm not saying money is everything BUT I'd rather invest in tennis than to put my daughter in softball at 6 years old and college is as far as she can go if she's good.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Sweden and Germany and great Britain have plenty of clay courts. Whats their problem?
Can't speak about Sweden or Britain, but in Germany the problem is complex.

First of all, tennis is very much split up into singular, quite small counties and the efforts in raising talents are done mostly in these counties individually. The german tennis association is a major failure and has not modernized its methods regarding juniors development in a good while. The best tennis training in the country can probably be found at the private academies, but these are financially restrictive.

The biggest problem though is lacking popularity. Ever since Becker's and Graf's successful pro days have ended, German interest in tennis has been dwindling consistently. The large football (americans, read soccer) boom over here counteracts that, pulling even more juniors away from tennis. Tennis clubs are becoming empty and the average age is dangerously high. In such an environment with lacking juniors competition, it is incredibly hard to raise a successful pro player.

Finally, it is a financial problem in other ways too. Being a tennis pro is expensive and it is a very risky occupation, as you need to be very good in order to make any money at all. Germany is a country with a vast amount of job opportunities and so most people (and their parents) are not willing to put their futures at risk by becoming a tennis player. The lacking financial backing by the German Tennis Association certainly only aggravates the problem.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
I had to upgrade my cable package for tennis channel smh.. extra 29.99 so my daughter can watch..
That's my point. I teach piano, and one of my black students could not watch Serena, even when I suggested that she would really want to see history, because "we can't see tennis at home".

Contrast that with so many years ago, when everyone could see "breakfast at Wimbledon", on network TV.

There was not much tennis to see at that time, but those who wanted to watch got to see it.

Everyone in the US knew who Jimmy Connors was. Compare that to Young, Johnson and Isner. And again, even when we talk about Serena, no one got to see her this year who did not have ESPN.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
So what? India over a billion china over a billion look at it that way. There are four major sports over here where athletes get paid millions plus soccer. Tennis is a niche sport and always will be. We have had our ups and downs and will continue to do so. Dont make excuses for germany and sweden when they also produced amazing champions like edberg and becker and wilander and borg and graf and others but gee since germany only has 80 million people thats an excuse.
You must be fairly young.

I'm making no excuses for Germany and Sweden. I'm saying that in comparison to the US they have smaller populations.

What is this "we" thing?

I"m saying that at the time when Connors started winning, everyone in the US knew who Connors was, and there was a huge interest in tennis. Wimbledon and the USO were televised on major networks. More and more people were playing tennis.

This year the USO is only on ESPN. If you are not paying for cable channels, you can't see it.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
You must be fairly young.

I'm making no excuses for Germany and Sweden. I'm saying that in comparison to the US they have smaller populations.

What is this "we" thing?

I"m saying that at the time when Connors started winning, everyone in the US knew who Connors was, and there was a huge interest in tennis. Wimbledon and the USO were televised on major networks. More and more people were playing tennis.

This year the USO is only on ESPN. If you are not paying for cable channels, you can't see it.
All of the hockey playoffs are on cable, majority of nba playoffs are on cable, most of baseball playoffs are now on cable. Kids play those sport plenty. Sports moving away from broadcast is a trend thats been going on for years. And you are making excuses for germany and sweden the population argument is an excuse.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Even granting that some of the other once dominant tennis forces have slipped into decline, the fact that there has been no slam contender from USA since Roddick is strange given how consistently it produced slam winners in the past. Maybe tennis is not as big in USA as it once was (I ask as a non American)? Even Sweden had Soderling, Czech Republic Berdych, Croatia Cilic, etc. USA's slide is only matched by Germany's. Aus had Hewitt in the mix and seem to have staged a recovery with the younger generation.
We produced consistent slam contenders on the men side from the mid 70s till sampras,aggassi. Since those days the slams have literally been dominated by four guys. With a surprise like del po or cilic popping up here and there. Hewitt hasnt been in any mix in ten years. The world is also different than it was 20 years ago many countries have more reasources to help tennis players. The Czech republic is a tennis player manufacturing machine. Its basically what the dominican republican is in baseball.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Not in the last 10 years, sure (but only just, he was the Aussie Open finalist in 2005) but he was no.1 at one point, won slams, made finals. Like Roddick, a contender for titles. Harrison isn't a contender for anything, nor Querrey. Sock or Young don't look too promising either.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Not in the last 10 years, sure (but only just, he was the Aussie Open finalist in 2005) but he was no.1 at one point, won slams, made finals. Like Roddick, a contender for titles. Harrison isn't a contender for anything, nor Querrey. Sock or Young don't look too promising either.
Again i think people keep thinking well we were so dominant why are we not anymore? You can extrapolate this to anything. The usa use to produce most of the worlds cars. Well thats until japan and Germany and korea ect got into the game post war. The reality is its a more competative environment. Look at great britain. They have one guy. If not for him its a dead zone and was decades. And most likely will be again after he retires. Yea they had henman he was decent. But this is a country that invented the freaking game.
 

RalphJ

Banned
The USTA is basically a fail. It is a worse organization with red tap and good-ol-boy nepotism than the US government. Jrs tennis is even worse. If you look at all the staff positions of the USTA, you will be amazed at the amount of personnel in the upper positions, while nothing really gets done to improve player development.

And all the USTA crusaders in 3...2...1...
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Don't follow your logic friend, Brad Gilbert named lack of slow courts, Clay as the NUMBER ONE reason Americans aren't bringing out champions.
So? That's his opinion. My opinion is you can teach BH, return, and patience on any surface. If you want to debate, fine. If you want to parrot what some talking heads say, knock yourself out. If Gilbert were so sure of that he'd quit ESPN, create an academy and start popping out champions. Don't hold your breath.

PS - others have touched on it but not really emphasized that US tennis (male) does not get our top athletes - more like our 5th or 6th string. Guaranteed contracts in baseball and basketball are a lot more appetizing than the meritocracy of tennis where you earn by winning (until you get to the top - barring injury - and get the endorsement loot).
 
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newpball

Legend
I've been to few tennis camps mainly on one Westcoast. I listen to a few coaches say how they are very few good coaches In tennis in America compared to other countries and in some countries teaching tennis with out proper license is a misdemeanor. He also told a few parents they had a better chance of getting better instruction from you tube videos. Thought!!
What do you mean a problem with USTA pro development? There is no problem I can see!
50+ professional baby boomer managers get top salaried positions there!
It is really a good place for them!

open-tennis-usta.jpg


:D
 
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