Where am I losing power?

[Chas Tennis]

It's just the most optimal path of the racquet from the drop to opening it up before contact. It's how all pros serve and what all coaches teach. There are many differences between "high level serves", but leading edge up is common to all.

That wording is ambiguous and has caused misunderstandings - some players incorrectly lead with the edge up to the ball and, at the last second, rotate the racket face.

This player is 'edge on' to the ball for an instant at the bottom red arrrow, a checkpoint that I used to screen for your serve. You did not have it. Everybody should screen the serve using this checkpoint.

There are many misunderstandings that often stem from the wording used for tennis strokes. The words tell you what to look at in videos....

You only missed it in videos for >30 years, I missed it for about 35 years...........

 

[Born_to_slice]

That wording is ambiguous and has caused misunderstandings - some players incorrectly lead with the edge up to the ball and, at the last second, rotate the racket face.

This player is 'edge on' to the ball for an instant at the bottom red arrrow, a checkpoint that I used to screen for your serve. You did not have it. Everybody should screen the serve using this checkpoint.

There are many misunderstandings that often stem from the wording used for tennis strokes. The words tell you what to look at in videos....

You only missed it in videos for >30 years, I missed it for about 35 years...........

I think that pic is misleading and confusing. Player's body rotates so racquet can't be in a same position during the rotation. Maybe cutting the air edge on would be a proper expression, but that's just nitpicking on terms IMO.

 

[user92626]

"That wording is ambiguous and has caused misunderstandings - some players incorrectly lead with the edge up to the ball and, at the last second, rotate the racket face. "

Very good observation, @Chas Tennis

My observation and experience is the same.

It's very difficult to perform "lead with the edge..then rotate the racket face"

It's more like starting from a fixed, correct, closed racket face, palm down position and then having (not consciously doing) the arm unfolding (opening up) per natural configuration!!! (+ your intent to cut thru the ball) The result just happens to be what we see. What we see can be completely misleading.

 

[Digital Atheist]

That wording is ambiguous and has caused misunderstandings - some players incorrectly lead with the edge up to the ball and, at the last second, rotate the racket face.

Sure, but how many of those have you really seen, I mean really? When someone is missing the checkpoint you highlighted (big L), how do they learn to incorporate it? Magic probably isn't going to save the day, so there has to be some kind of process involving cues the player can recognise and execute, and when making changes like this an exaggeration is required just to get close.

Given your own estimated number of waiters trays floating around recreational tennis, that particular part of the serve seems quite unnatural for most. You've seen the Colorado Tennis progressions video that involves hitting the ball with the edge of the racquet right? It seems to be quite an effective way of learning this on edge checkpoint you refer to (there are obviously others).

It's very difficult to perform "lead with the edge..then rotate the racket face"

It's difficult to do that and hit a good serve, but that's not the intention of the instruction. I see it as a cue to learn the correct feeling so the big L can be achieved. See above.

 

[user92626]

Went today to serve practice an tried some drills from Feel Tennis channel for correcting the serve drop and opening of the racquet head too early. Not gonna lie, it all felt awkward and out of my comfort zone, totally against the grain of established muscle memory. Did the drill where you try to hit the ball with the edge of the racquet and it wasn't as easy as I imagined. Even missed the ball completely a couple of times but was mostly ending up brushing it, while some I launched over the fence. Almost succeeded to do a full serve motion with racquet leading up to the ball by the end of the hour, but actually framed that one. My wrist still bends but I continue rotating it until it's leading edge up. Still opened it up a bit too early and my legs were out of balance but i'll take that micro victory.

Since my Blade is modified to a 350g, it crossed my mind it's actually slowing down my serve swing, so I tried a few serves in the end with my backup racquet, 289g (K)Factor, strung 3 ago with Head Lynx (soft co-poly) . Haven't taken that stick in hand long time and wasn't even trying that hard but I comfortably produced faster serves than with my 350g Blade today.

Actually pondering about modifying it slightly and trying it out in matches. Never liked how feeble it was in deflecting stronger shots. It's a nasty oval frame that's not suitable for thicker lead tape on the inside though.

Can someone comment on whether his swing path is correct?

It looks off to me. It looks like he swings right to left. From away from body to closer, which seems wrong.

It should be from left to right, from close to body to away. Right?

 

[Chas Tennis]

To tell if it is correct compare to high speed videos of high level serve from the same camera angles.

Can someone comment on whether his swing path is correct?

It looks off to me. It looks like he swings right to left. From away from body to closer, which seems wrong.

It should be from left to right, from close to body to away. Right?

k(factor) video

Hand swing path and racket swing path do not look correct. The ISR seems to more follow impact. It's as if the racket face is at an angle, not facing to the sky as for WT and not as in the picture for the high level serve shown earlier with the red arrow. Note - first movement of the ball can be seen just barely in front of the racket near its left edge (very hard to see).

A Waiter's Tray is logical in that the racket face is lined up early and then swung as rapidly as workable toward the ball. The racket closing as it moves forward creates most speed.

The significant added speed from ISR rotation of the upper arm is not there before impact.

I tend to use the resulting serve trajectory as a reference direction for the path of the racket. See picture with red arrows (slice serve).

I posted many times on internal shoulder rotation (ISR) with pictures and videos. Search.

It has seemed to me that the WT racket head path will go at the ball more directly relative to the ball's trajectory than the high level serve and that this may be a source of difficulty in learning. I have found a few videos of high level serves from above that show these angles well, but none of Waiter's Tray. Also, the picture with the red arrows shows the ball trajectory, hand path and racket path well enough to see what is going on but none similar for the WT. That video camera angle was taken aligned to the hand path that stays in a plane. Seeing a difference of 15-20 degrees can't be observed unless the camera angles are selected.

Most important, the OP has his upper arm too high according to the Ellenbecker video, a safety issue.

I don't have instructions, these are observations for use as feedback.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Sure, but how many of those have you really seen, I mean really? When someone is missing the checkpoint you highlighted (big L), how do they learn to incorporate it? Magic probably isn't going to save the day, so there has to be some kind of process involving cues the player can recognise and execute, and when making changes like this an exaggeration is required just to get close.

Given your own estimated number of waiters trays floating around recreational tennis, that particular part of the serve seems quite unnatural for most. You've seen the Colorado Tennis progressions video that involves hitting the ball with the edge of the racquet right? It seems to be quite an effective way of learning this on edge checkpoint you refer to (there are obviously others).


It's difficult to do that and hit a good serve, but that's not the intention of the instruction. I see it as a cue to learn the correct feeling so the big L can be achieved. See above.

My very rough estimates over active tennis players including serious tennis players based on poster's serves and on court observations by eye:
1) Waiter's Tray Technique > 60%
2) Miscellaneous Serving Techniques ~ 30%
3) High Level Serve - < 20%

I think I have seen more than 10 posters (#2) that use ISR very late before impact or after impact. Ineffective ISR. I would count the OP video K(factor) as 2) Miscellaneous or still 1) WT?

For #1 - Dennis van der Meer estimated Waiter's Tray ( same technique by another name) as 50%. That is where I got the idea to estimate WT. I posted the links on this forum. He was estimating his students. if you look at public courts or tennis club courts you can do an estimate. You can see the WT racket position by eye, especially when receiving serve.

The thing that I don't like about the usage of racket 'edge' is mostly I see the arm, near straight and rotating say 60-90 degrees. The racket goes from edge on to the ball to face on to the ball from the arm rotation. That is mostly what I see in videos.

'Edge on to the ball' is a very useful instantaneous checkpoint at the Big L position. Face the sky - not a high level serve and probably a WT. Edge on to the ball a good chance of being a high level serve. Night and day often. But sometimes the racket does not squarely face the sky, then you have to look for ISR to see if it adds significantly to racket head speed.

 

[Born_to_slice]

k(factor) video

Hand swing path and racket swing path do not look correct. The ISR seems to more follow impact. It's as if the racket face is at an angle, not facing to the sky as for WT and not as in the picture for the high level serve shown earlier with the red arrow. Note - first movement of the ball can be seen just barely in front of the racket near its left edge (very hard to see).

That video was just to showcase swing speed with lighter racquet, not correct technique.

 

[Kevo]

Can someone comment on whether his swing path is correct?

It looks off to me. It looks like he swings right to left. From away from body to closer, which seems wrong.

It should be from left to right, from close to body to away. Right?

I'm not sure what you are trying to describe. My take is his toss is to far to the right and he is swinging farther out to the right than he should be. There are other things, but as far as basic swing direction that's my take on it.

 

[user92626]

I'm not sure what you are trying to describe. My take is his toss is to far to the right and he is swinging farther out to the right than he should be. There are other things, but as far as basic swing direction that's my take on it.

yeah, but where is his racket going? Forward and a little to the left or what?

 

[Born_to_slice]

I implemented longer (hard to see it but it's there) trophy position and was able to produce faster serves. Now I understand it's because it forces me to swing faster after TP to make up for that time and hit the ball. Gonna try to implement racquet lag next instead of up together and see if that generates same speed while not breaking the momentum created by take-back motion with TP lag.

Also looking into Kyrgios serve mechanics (he also hits at the peak of the toss) but don't know if I can switch from platform to pin point so easily.