I miss the 2006-2008 Shanghai surface there. I have no doubt if they kept it at that speed Fed probably would’ve won 1-2 more titles in 2012/2014/2015/2017.
Where do Federer's 2004 and 2006, Djokovic's 2011 and 2015 rank in the best years of the Open Era
- Thread starter brystone
- Start date
Borg's years:
1979 > 1980 > 1980.
1978: Birmingham + Boca Raton + Tournament of Champions + Milan + Rome + Paris + Wimbledon + Tokyo
1979: Boca Raton + Richmond + Rotterdam + Montecarlo + Las Vegas + Paris + Wimbledon + Toronto + WCT Challenge Cup + Tokyo + Masters GP
1980: Salisbury + Boca Raton + Montecarlo + Las Vegas + Paris + Wimbledon + Stockholm + Masters GP
1979 > 1980 > 1980.
1978: Birmingham + Boca Raton + Tournament of Champions + Milan + Rome + Paris + Wimbledon + Tokyo
1979: Boca Raton + Richmond + Rotterdam + Montecarlo + Las Vegas + Paris + Wimbledon + Toronto + WCT Challenge Cup + Tokyo + Masters GP
1980: Salisbury + Boca Raton + Montecarlo + Las Vegas + Paris + Wimbledon + Stockholm + Masters GP
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Pheasant
Legend
Fair enough, Amigo. Now that I look further into this, Connors had cakewalk competition. 39 year old Rosewall was the only heavyweight that he faced in the majors.
Jimbo's years:
1976 > 1978 = 1974.
1974: Australian Open + Wimbledon +Indianapolis + US Open + PSW (Los Angeles) + Dewar Cup (London) + South African Open
1976: US Pro Indoor (Philadelphia) + Palm Springs + Las Vegas + Washington + North Conway + Indianapolis + US Open + Wembley
1978: US Pro Indoor (Philadelphia) + US National Indoor (Memphis) + Rotterdam + Washington + Indianapolis + US Open
1976 > 1978 = 1974.
1974: Australian Open + Wimbledon +Indianapolis + US Open + PSW (Los Angeles) + Dewar Cup (London) + South African Open
1976: US Pro Indoor (Philadelphia) + Palm Springs + Las Vegas + Washington + North Conway + Indianapolis + US Open + Wembley
1978: US Pro Indoor (Philadelphia) + US National Indoor (Memphis) + Rotterdam + Washington + Indianapolis + US Open
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BrokenGears
Guest
Federer benefited from WTF being fast
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
You list Fed once when he won 3/4 slams in three different years?
Total joke.
2004 Fed: 74-6 92.8%
2005 Fed: 81-4 93%
2006 Fed: 92-5 94.83%
I didn't even bother listing 2007 when he won 3/4 majors.
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BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
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BrokenGears
Guest
My point is players should be able to play well on all surfaces
abmk
Bionic Poster
YEC being indoors is supposed to be medium-fast to fast, not medium slow.
doesn't make sense to say Nadal benefitted from RG being slow/high bouncing or Sampras benefitted from grass being fast/irregular bouncing either.
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BrokenGears
Guest
Where does it say a surface is supposed to be a certain speed.
abmk
Bionic Poster
its not written down as some law/rule, but its per tradition and common sense.
it isn't written down that French Open is supposed to be on clay or Wimbledon supposed to be on grass. doesn't mean we don't expect those to be as they are.
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BrokenGears
Guest
They can do whatever they want with the court speed. They can make grass like carpet again or like clay somehow, it’s still a surface and players should adapt and win
abmk
Bionic Poster
a) that doesn't mean one player doesn't benefit from the change (significant departure from the tradition/norm) ...is that too tough to accept ?
b) tell that to those whiners in Nadal/Djokovic when they whined non-stop about Madrid 12 blue clay (while saying nothing about Monte Carlo that year which was more dangerous and actually had 2 serious injuries)
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Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
But I'm confused about the math, like 81-4 would mean 81/85, right? But that would be 95.3%. I don't understand your numbers.
ghostofMecir
Legend
A guy at 27 is “way past his best,” but Fed...Fed at 33 is at his peak.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Since winning percentage is a frequent argument I want to show something:
Big tournaments winning percentage
2015 Djokovic - 94.59%
2006 Federer - 94.29%
2011 Djokovic - 93.65%
average opponent ranking (geometric mean):
2011 Djokovic - 15.3
2015 Djokovic - 15.9
2006 Federer - 21.7
Big tournaments winning percentage
2015 Djokovic - 94.59%
2006 Federer - 94.29%
2011 Djokovic - 93.65%
average opponent ranking (geometric mean):
2011 Djokovic - 15.3
2015 Djokovic - 15.9
2006 Federer - 21.7
More wins, titles, finals, less defeats, prime ATG competition.
2015 on the other hand has more ranking points and masters 1000 than 2006.
It doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean conditions should be homogenised to the point where one guy can play the same style all year round and dominate. They should make USO and YEC again.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
IIRC Fed has greater win % in 2006 vs Nole only when including 250s and wins against players ranked below 100. Not sure that’s what we want to include.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Djokovic's 2015 is undoubtedly better than Federer's 2006, but to answer your question, 2006 had Nadal who was a far bigger obstacle than anyone Djokovic had in 2015 on any surface.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
The only meaningless title Federer won in 2006 was Tokyo. The others are all legit tournaments.
Doha - both played it and Djokovic lost before the semis while Federer won. Federer should not be penalized for winning a tournament which Djokovic also played but lost earlier.
Halle - grass warm-up. Federer has nearly always played this tournament before Wimb. Just because Djokovic doesn't play grass warm-ups, doesn't mean Federer shouldn't either.
Basel - Federer's hometown tournament. He pretty much has always played it. Not his problem Djokovic didn't have a hometown tournament. Remember, Novak did play Belgrade in 2011 back when it still existed.
So all this 250 padding myth needs to stop. You guys act like Federer chose to play 250's to pad his stats which is clearly not true.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/season?season=2006
https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/season?season=2015
GOAT points, 2015 vs 2006:
Djokovic 91 >> Federer 84
Federer 37 < Nadal 38
Murray 37 >>> Davydenko 17
Wawrinka 26 >>> Blake 13
Nadal 18 >> Nalbandian 11
“GOAT points” isn’t an objective stat though.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
It is objective, it applies the same method to all years and players.
It may be disagreeable, but it basically reflects ATP points.
Okay so Djokovic has more ATP points and GOAT points
Federer has more titles, finals, wins, fewer defeats.
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BrokenGears
Guest
As I said before, players should adapt and perform on whatever conditions.
And is it too tough to accept that Federer benefited from fast courts? He definitely wouldn't win as much now lol
Did I ever say anything defending them lol
They can do whatever they want. The tournaments still count
abmk
Bionic Poster
anyone can offer up platitudes like those. That misses the whole point of what I was saying - some players benefit from certain changes, some get dealt a worse hand.
And, no, Federer grew up when the conditions were as they were back in the 90s/early 2000s , so he didn't 'benefit' from the faster or rather less homogenized conditions.
a change like Madrid on blue clay ? yeah, you could say he benefitted from that in 2012.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
More masters titles and better competition.
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BrokenGears
Guest
Players fault sorry. They can adapt. It’s not hard. Federer did it for blue clay did he not? There’s no worse hand, just better players winning more
You could easily say he did. Djokovic grew up in this era where courts are slowing down, but you say he benefited from it and Federer didn’t benefit from growing up in his era? Hypocrisy much?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federer did just that.
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BrokenGears
Guest
Yes definetly. It’s why he’s won so many USO titles after winning 5 in a row right? Or only winning one AO title after surface changed?
abmk
Bionic Poster
no, it isn't.
Yeah, Federer adapted to blue clay. doesn't mean he didn't benefit from the shift from red clay to blue clay that year.
if AO suddenly changed from HC to clay in say 2011 ....obviously Nadal would win a lot there and Djokovic would win quite less.
Isn't that being dealt a much worse hand (from Djokovic's PoV) ?
Would that mean Djokovic would be MUCH worse a player than Nadal ?
no, it means that circumstances changed from the norm.
just because player A benefitted from <<circumstances A>> doesn't mean player B benefitted from <<circumstances B>>
are we throwing all logic out out of the window now ?
Federer developed an all-court style based on the conditions that were there at that time and his game took longer to develop (more complex).
Djokovic was a baseliner....conditions slowing down only helped him/his style of play ...since he could afford to stay back quite a bit more, guys found it tougher to come in to take him out of his rhythm etc. etc.
abmk
Bionic Poster
whereas Djokovic can't even defend USO even once, let alone 4 times as Fed did.
And that had nothing to do with change in conditions.
Federer won 3 AOs after the shift from rebound to plexi >> but nice try.
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BrokenGears
Guest
Other players could have also benefited
Yes ofc, but it’s his responsibility to work on his clay game.
If Djokovic couldn’t adapt, that’s on him
Then they can improve their game and try to beat Djokovic. Like Stan did in several matches
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BrokenGears
Guest
Hey, as I said Federer hasn’t done **** on USO for a while, that’s his fault
Lmao at thinking AO 2017-19 were the same surface as before lol
Another surface change that benefited Federer lol
mike danny
Bionic Poster
What does that prove exactly? The fact that he won 5 USO in a row shows that he really has nothing to prove there. Why does he need to win another USO to satisfy some people's cherry picking criticism? Why couldn't Djokovic win the USO before it was slowed down in 2011?
He has won 3 AO titles since the surface change, not 1.
Facts that show Federer's adaptability:
- Federer has won the USO both on the old green surface and on the new blue one.
- Federer has won the AO on both Rebound Ace and Plexicusion.
- Federer has won Miami on both the green surface and the purple one.
- Federer has won the WTF in each location it was moved to and has won it when it was both outdoors and indoors.
- Federer has won Madrid on 3 different surface changes: indoor HC, red clay and blue clay.
- Federer has won Wimb both S&V-ing and implementing baseline tennis.
He has adapted better than most really. Djokovic hasn't had to deal with any drastic surface changes.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Hey, as I said Federer hasn’t done **** on USO for a while, that’s his fault
Lmao at thinking AO 2017-18 were the same surface as before lol
Another surface change that benefited Federer lol
LOL, yet when I pointed out the same for YEC in 11-15, you couldn't deal with it, were whining about it and came up some irrelevant platitudes.
yeah, fed hasn't done much since USO 15 final at the USO, but again, like I said it doesn't have much to do with the conditions.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Oh, a bit of faster courts, the horror.Hey, as I said Federer hasn’t done **** on USO for a while, that’s his fault
Lmao at thinking AO 2017-19 were the same surface as before lol
Another surface change that benefited Federer lol
mike danny
Bionic Poster
LOL, criticizing a 5 time USO champion who also won those titles consecutively is richHey, as I said Federer hasn’t done **** on USO for a while, that’s his fault
Lmao at thinking AO 2017-19 were the same surface as before lol
Another surface change that benefited Federer lol
Let me know when Djokovic comes close to winning any slam 5 times in a row.
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BrokenGears
Guest
He didn’t that’s on him. Just like it’s in Federer for not working on his game to beat Nadal on clay, Djokovic at AO, etc
B
BrokenGears
Guest
LOL, yet when I pointed out the same for YEC in 11-15, you couldn't deal with it, were whining about it and came up some irrelevant platitudes.
yeah, fed hasn't done much since USO 15 final at the USO, but again, like I said it doesn't have much to do with the conditions.
Lmao at thinking that I don’t think Djokovic shouldn’t have adapted either. And he ended up doing so anyway lmao
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BrokenGears
Guest
LOL, criticizing a 5 time USO champion who also won those titles consecutively is rich
The same USO title who hasn’t done yet in this decade? What a winner
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer has more Tokyo titles. Thats it.
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