Who was ”better” today?

[GabeT]

I see a lot of comments that Federer lost despite being the better player. This is mainly based on the fact that Fed’s stats are better than Nole’s almost across the board, including more points won. But was he really the “better” player?

Let’s look at this set by set.

In Set 1 there was little difference between the two and only one BP on Nole’s serve. i don’t think that having one unconverted BP makes you the “better” player. In the tiebreak Nole was clearly the better player and ended winning 5 more points in the set than Fed did.

Set 2 was a collapse for Novak and a key reason why the overall stats look better for Federer. Overall Fed won 14 more points than Nole in the match. They are explained 100% by Set 2 results, which Fed won by 14 points.

Set 3 was very similar to set 1. Very close, only one BP, and then the tiebreak. Again Nole wins the TB comfortably, even more so than in Set 1.

In set 4 Fed was the clear winner both in play and results.

So we have 4 sets, where Fed dominates clearly two of them and in the other two they are tied until the TB, both of which Nole wins comfortably.

The final set had plenty of back and forth for both players. Yes, Fed had two CPs and lost them. But Nole was also up a break at 4-2. Had he held his serve just two more times he would have won at 6-4. So both had opportunities and lost them. And in the TB Novak once again won comfortably. The TB is an integral part of tennis and Novak won all three today. He was behind only once in the first TB and never behind in any of the others. And he won each TB by a bigger margin than the prior one. Set 1 was 7-5, set 2 7-4, and set 3 ended 7-3.

The reality is that this was a very tight match in three of the sets and in all of those Nole ended winning the TB. The fact that Fed had a blowout win in set 2 doesn’t really help him in any other set.

 

[tennisaddict]

Novak did not have a (real) chance to break Fed until 4-2 in the 5th. That is the real story.

The fact Fed played 3 relatively bad TB are his undoing.

 

[NoleFam]

The blowout second set is the reason why the points won are so much in favor in Federer. Drop that set, which Djokovic pretty much tanked, then they are basically even in total points. I do still think Federer was the better player for most of the match. Novak just could not muster his top level today for some reason. He pretty much said it in his press conference too. However, he was beyond clutch in all three tiebreaks. It was then where he took his game to the next level and outplayed Federer, and how clutch was that backhand down the line he hit at 5-3 in the final tiebreak?

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Fed getting nervy and losing 3/3 TBs was the biggest problem for him

 

[GabeT]

Novak did not have a (real) chance to break Fed until 4-2 in the 5th. That is the real story.

The fact Fed played 3 relatively bad TB are his undoing.

Yeah, but that happens in many matches. It’s not like Fed had many break opportunities either in sets 1 and 3. Just one per set.

 

[tennisaddict]

Yeah, but that happens in many matches. It’s not like Fed had many break opportunities either in sets 1 and 3. Just one per set.

Djokovic did not have any . Zilch. None. Nada.

And Fed had a real chance on the 1st set BP. Missed a regular FH.

 

[Service Ace]

Clutch is the most important thing in sports so yeah, Joe was "better."

 

[Technology Ruined Tennis]

Rosol is the goat at serving out matches.

 

[tennisaddict]

Novak deserved the win just for the 3 TB. UFE - 0 against Fed's 11

There were 3 BH DTL winners in each of them that were top class.

 

[NoleFam]

Djokovic did not have any . Zilch. None. Nada.

And Fed had a real chance on the 1st set BP. Missed a regular FH.

That's because Novak didn't return that well and did not take his chances on Federer's second serve enough. He said this after the match.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

I see it like this.
Nole, in general, is so much better than Federer nowadays, that even when they are playing on grass and Fed's better it isn't enough to beat him.

 

[zagor]

I see a lot of comments that Federer lost despite being the better player. This is mainly based on the fact that Fed’s stats are better than Nole’s almost across the board, including more points won. But was he really the “better” player?

Let’s look at this set by set.

In Set 1 there was little difference between the two and only one BP on Nole’s serve. i don’t think that having one unconverted BP makes you the “better” player. In the tiebreak Nole was clearly the better player and ended winning 5 more points in the set than Fed did.

Set 2 was a collapse for Novak and a key reason why the overall stats look better for Federer. Overall Fed won 14 more points than Nole in the match. They are explained 100% by Set 2 results, which Fed won by 14 points.

Set 3 was very similar to set 1. Very close, only one BP, and then the tiebreak. Again Nole wins the TB comfortably, even more so than in Set 1.

In set 4 Fed was the clear winner both in play and results.

So we have 4 sets, where Fed dominates clearly two of them and in the other two they are tied until the TB, both of which Nole wins comfortably.

The final set had plenty of back and forth for both players. Yes, Fed had two CPs and lost them. But Nole was also up a break at 4-2. Had he held his serve just two more times he would have won at 6-4. So both had opportunities and lost them. And in the TB Novak once again won comfortably. The TB is an integral part of tennis and Novak won all three today. He was behind only once in the first TB and never behind in any of the others. And he won each TB by a bigger margin than the prior one. Set 1 was 7-5, set 2 7-4, and set 3 ended 7-3.

The reality is that this was a very tight match in three of the sets and in all of those Nole ended winning the TB. The fact that Fed had a blowout win in set 2 doesn’t really help him in any other set.

The match is over, Novak won. He was better.

This isn't basketball, it's tennis.

Fed was extremely close but didn't get over the finish line. It sucks, it's terrible (for a Fed fan like me) but I never bought into this "xy was a better player but lost the match" and I'm not really gonna start now.

 

[Nostradamus]

Computer say Federer was 2 X better than Novak today................ but that boring baseliner with 2-handed backhand is holding the golden trophy

 

[BeatlesFan]

Nole, in general, is so much better than Federer nowadays

If he's so much better, why did it take him 5 hours to beat him? Someone "so much better" should have disposed of a 38 year old old 6-1, 6-2, 6-3. Monumental stupidity. Consider thinking before posting next time.

 

[tudwell]

The first set was a coin flip. Nole was hitting clean and was up early in the tiebreak. Fed botched a forehand on a short ball at 5-3 but overall it’s not bad to lose a tight set to Djoker playing like that.

The second set is obvious. Where Fed really fell short was set 3. I don’t know if the stats reflect it but Novak was there for the taking. He didn’t have spring in his legs, especially on the return. He wasn’t getting to returns he normally would and at times didn’t even try. He also didn’t have his usual explosiveness in his legs on serve. He was serving much slower than set 1 as far as I can tell. The whole set seemed like Fed was on top. So much so actually that I think he kind of took his foot off the gas and didn’t press enough on return. Then he fell apart in the tiebreak.

Novak playing very flat for 2.5 sets (from beginning of the second to halfway through the fourth) is what makes it seem like Fed was better overall. But the first and fifth were a dogfight and dead even, and Novak clutching out a tiebreak in a set he was clearly playing very flat in is what made the difference.

 

[tlm]

The winner was the better player today.

 

[ghostofMecir]

The blowout second set is the reason why the points won are so much in favor in Federer. Drop that set, which Djokovic pretty much tanked, then they are basically even in total points. I do still think Federer was the better player for most of the match. Novak just could not muster his top level today for some reason. He pretty much said it in his press conference too. However, he was beyond clutch in all three tiebreaks. It was then where he took his game to the next level and outplayed Federer, and how clutch was that backhand down the line he hit at 5-3 in the final tiebreak?

So take away an entire set and they’re still just “even in total points”? Djokovic didn’t have break point until 2-5 down in the 4th set. It’s not that he didn’t break, but that he didn’t even have a single break point. 94-54 winners edge, 65-30 non service winners edge.

Djokovic deserves to win by the rules of tennis scoring, though. He played much better than Federer in the TBs and seemed more confident overall.

 

[tennisaddict]

The first set was a coin flip. Nole was hitting clean and was up early in the tiebreak. Fed botched a forehand on a short ball at 5-3 but overall it’s not bad to lose a tight set to Djoker playing like that.

The second set is obvious. Where Fed really fell short was set 3. I don’t know if the stats reflect it but Novak was there for the taking. He didn’t have spring in his legs, especially on the return. He wasn’t getting to returns he normally would and at times didn’t even try. He also didn’t have his usual explosiveness in his legs on serve. He was serving much slower than set 1 as far as I can tell. The whole set seemed like Fed was on top. So much so actually that I think he kind of took his foot off the gas and didn’t press enough on return. Then he fell apart in the tiebreak.

Novak playing very flat for 2.5 sets (from beginning of the second to halfway through the fourth) is what makes it seem like Fed was better overall. But the first and fifth were a dogfight and dead even, and Novak clutching out a tiebreak in a set he was clearly playing very flat in is what made the difference.

You summed up very well.

Fed had a put away volley at 5-3 in the 1st set TB. How he botched that god knows.

And we keep talking about the missed MP. But Fed could have done a bit more the begining of set 3 . Up until 3-3 , I thought Fed kind of slacked. Not sure if he thought Novak will give it away like USO 16. Commentators were talking about injury, etc . If Fed had gotten a break there , this match may have been over in 4.

That said, I cannot believe how Novak switched on just for the TB and promptly at 2-2 in 4th , Fed started to GOAT once again.

Fed was consistent pretty much all 5 sets barring 2-3 points in the Tie breaks. He should get a tie break coach or watch his old videos.

 

[ghostofMecir]

I see a lot of comments that Federer lost despite being the better player. This is mainly based on the fact that Fed’s stats are better than Nole’s almost across the board, including more points won. But was he really the “better” player?

Let’s look at this set by set.

In Set 1 there was little difference between the two and only one BP on Nole’s serve. i don’t think that having one unconverted BP makes you the “better” player. In the tiebreak Nole was clearly the better player and ended winning 5 more points in the set than Fed did.

Set 2 was a collapse for Novak and a key reason why the overall stats look better for Federer. Overall Fed won 14 more points than Nole in the match. They are explained 100% by Set 2 results, which Fed won by 14 points.

Set 3 was very similar to set 1. Very close, only one BP, and then the tiebreak. Again Nole wins the TB comfortably, even more so than in Set 1.

In set 4 Fed was the clear winner both in play and results.

So we have 4 sets, where Fed dominates clearly two of them and in the other two they are tied until the TB, both of which Nole wins comfortably.

The final set had plenty of back and forth for both players. Yes, Fed had two CPs and lost them. But Nole was also up a break at 4-2. Had he held his serve just two more times he would have won at 6-4. So both had opportunities and lost them. And in the TB Novak once again won comfortably. The TB is an integral part of tennis and Novak won all three today. He was behind only once in the first TB and never behind in any of the others. And he won each TB by a bigger margin than the prior one. Set 1 was 7-5, set 2 7-4, and set 3 ended 7-3.

The reality is that this was a very tight match in three of the sets and in all of those Nole ended winning the TB. The fact that Fed had a blowout win in set 2 doesn’t really help him in any other set.

You wouldn’t have made the thread if weren’t very much debateable. Would you make the thread about Nadal vs. Thiem RG Final or Djokovic vs. Anderson Wimby Final?

—Federer won more points
—Federer won more return points and a greater % of them
—Greatest edge in total points won by the runner up in any slam final since we have official recorded data (beginning of 1991)
—Runner up had the highest dominance ratio by a slam runner up (topping Djokovic’s 1.11 DR over Wawrinka at the 2016 USO)
--94 to 54 edge in winners, 65-30 on non-service winners.

If there were ever a case that the better player didn’t win, this is it.

 

[Deleted member 766172]

It seemed like Federer was better when Djokovic dropped his level, but otherwise they were about even, and Djokovic was superior in the tiebreaks. I think Federer was better for a longer duration, but Djokovic was just too clutch in the big moments.

 

[GoldenSwing]

Federer was statistically better, Djokovic was better

 

[Milehigh5280]

Federer was better for the majority of the match, but Djokovic was better when it mattered the most

 

[metsman]

Djokovic was outplayed, pretty decisively most of the time, but again this is tennis and points count different. So including the tiebreaks, he was definitely the better player.

 

[tudwell]

You summed up very well.

Fed had a put away volley at 5-3 in the 1st set TB. How he botched that god knows.

And we keep talking about the missed MP. But Fed could have done a bit more the begining of set 3 . Up until 3-3 , I thought Fed kind of slacked. Not sure if he thought Novak will give it away like USO 16. Commentators were talking about injury, etc . If Fed had gotten a break there , this match may have been over in 4.

That said, I cannot believe how Novak switched off just for the TB and promptly at 2-2 in 4th , Fed started to GOAT once again.

Fed was consistent pretty much all 5 sets barring 2-3 points in the Tie breaks. He should get a tie break coach or watch his old videos.

Yeah, honestly, Djokovic seemed like he was hurting for most of the third set. He got better as it went along but early on he was not a whole lot better than set 2, but Fed was nowhere to be found.

Djokovic did fall early in set 2 and he may very well have tweaked something when he did because it took him a long time after that to get back to good form.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

If he's so much better, why did it take him 5 hours to beat him? Someone "so much better" should have disposed of a 38 year old old 6-1, 6-2, 6-3. Monumental stupidity. Consider thinking before posting next time.

Consider thinking before showing that you're so butthurt about your idol that you went out of your way to reply to a comment, that wasn't addressed to you, with so much salt. Again if you can't notice that since 2011 Nole is so much better to Fed, that's monumentally stupid. And again, I specifically said so much better, "in general". I recommend you to read before you write. And lastly I repeat, in general, Nole is so much better than Federer nowadays, than even in the specific days Federer is better, it isn't enough to beat him, for whatever reason.

Use this aggression to refer to your family or the people you know, it wasn't my fault that Federer lost 2(3?) championship points today. Or email Ljubicic.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

The winner is the better player. 32 year old Djokovic is ever so slightly better than 37 year old Federer. Big deal.

Still awesome Fed can make a GS final (beating Nadal along the way) at his age.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Consider thinking before showing that you're so butthurt about your idol that you went out of your way to reply to a comment, that wasn't addressed to you, with so much salt. Again if you can't notice that since 2011 Nole is so much better to Fed, that's monumentally stupid. And again, I specifically said so much better, "in general". I recommend you to read before you write. And lastly I repeat, in general, Nole is so much better than Federer nowadays, than even in the specific days Federer is better, it isn't enough to beat him, for whatever reason.

Use this aggression to refer to your family or the people you know, it wasn't my fault that Federer lost 2(3?) championship points today. Or email Ljubicic.

Stats and competition say otherwise. Remember when Novak was beating up on Murray? ROFL.

 

[GabeT]

The winner is the better player. 32 year old Djokovic is ever so slightly better than 37 year old Federer. Big deal.

Still awesome Fed can make a GS final (beating Nadal along the way) at his age.

Well, to be clear, he was “ever so slightly” better only today and on grass. He is much better when focusing on the bigger picture, which is reflected in his ranking and the fact he’s won 4 of the last 5 slams.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Well, to be clear, he was “ever so slightly” better only today and on grass. He is much better when focusing on the bigger picture, which is reflected in his ranking and the fact he’s won 4 of the last 5 slams.

I think 32 year old Federer was better, he just had peak Novak in his way instead of Thiem and Zverev.

 

[Antonio Puente]

Except for when Fed choked at 8-7 in the 5th, Djoker was never behind, so to me, it never felt like he was being outplayed. He was up 1 set to 0, 2 sets to 1, and served first in the 5th. He was leading almost the entire match. Who cares about total points and whatnot.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Federer had better DR (>1) in the last four sets despite losing TBs, so yes he was better according to stats. The first set is the only one he wasn't better in (even until TB). Fed outplayed, Novak outclutched, the latter proved bigger, congrats.

 

[GabeT]

I think 32 year old Federer was better, he just had peak Novak in his way instead of Thiem and Zverev.

32 year old Fed is 2013 Fed.

 

[icedevil0289]

oh god just enjoy this win, what is it you are trying to prove who cares, novak won. he was clutch when it mattered. it sucks as a fed fan watching him lose with those stats though, ffs he even had a better bp conversion. when does that happen?

 

[Midaso240]

Well as Federer said,it doesn't really matter whether he played better or not,he lost...

 

[icedevil0289]

Well as Federer said,it doesn't really matter whether he played better or not,he lost...

mte, yeah OP is just on some thing to prove because some fed fans are upset and yes we are annoyed he hd good stats and lost, but that doesnt take anything away from OP but I've also seen OP constantly debate fed stats all the times in talking about his greatness so w/e we get it novak is goat

 

[Deleted member 307496]

32 year old Fed is 2013 Fed.

Federer was 32 during the 2014 Wimbledon final as you guys liked to so aptly put it.

 

[GabeT]

Federer was 32 during the 2014 Wimbledon final as you guys liked to so aptly put it.

Practically 33 at the time. Same age as Nadal this year.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Practically 33 at the time. Same age as Nadal this year.

But he was 32, remember?!?!? I still think 33-34 year old Federer was better too.

 

[tlm]

How can you play better than your opponent and lose? LMAO

 

[GabeT]

But he was 32, remember?!?!? I still think 33-34 year old Federer was better too.

During the year Fed turned 32 the highest he reached was a slam SF. Nole already won two slams in the equivalent year.

nole has yet to turn 33 and 34 so no way to compare results

 

[icedevil0289]

During the year Fed turned 32 the highest he reached was a slam SF. Nole already won two slams in the equivalent year.

nole has yet to turn 33 and 34 so no way to compare results

yes we get nole is amazing, goat etc federer is weak era champ, except is there anyone younger challenging novak? your posts are always so annoying.

 

[GabeT]

yes we get nole is amazing, goat etc federer is weak era champ, except is there anyone younger challenging novak? your posts are always so annoying.

Nole faced less competition than Fed when older but much more when younger. Such is tennis

edit: and yes, Novak is amazing!

 

[Breakpointerer]

According to stats Fed outplayed Novak, but Novak came up clutch when it mattered. It sucks and it hurts but what can you do.

 

[NoleFam]

So take away an entire set and they’re still just “even in total points”? Djokovic didn’t have break point until 2-5 down in the 4th set. It’s not that he didn’t break, but that he didn’t even have a single break point. 94-54 winners edge, 65-30 non service winners edge.

Djokovic deserves to win by the rules of tennis scoring, though. He played much better than Federer in the TBs and seemed more confident overall.

What exactly are you arguing? Yes they are basically even in the other 4 sets over the course of the match. I said Federer was the better player for the majority of the match. That should be good enough for you.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

..

 

[JackGates]

Why is this even a topic? Of course the winner was better. Big points have more value, so Nole won more "points".

But overall Federer was playing higher level the entire tournament. But winner is not determined by overall level, just the level of play on those big points.

That's what makes tennis more unique, mental toughness is much more important due to this point system.

 

[TheAssassin]

I'd say Federer was better until they got to big points. Unfortunately for him, those were the ones that decided the outcome.

 

[NoleFam]

I think 32 year old Federer was better, he just had peak Novak in his way instead of Thiem and Zverev.

Federer was 32 in 2013. No way was he playing better than Novak has been playing in 2019.

 

[Pantera]

Computer say Federer was 2 X better than Novak today................ but that boring baseliner with 2-handed backhand is holding the golden trophy

Federer was twice as good yet lost? Don't you see a slight contradiction there?

 

[Pantera]

What exactly are you arguing? Yes they are basically even in the other 4 sets over the course of the match. I said Federer was the better player for the majority of the match. That should be good enough for you.

Brazil were better than Belgium last year in the World Cup....can we change the result? Man....the level of saltiness of Federer fans is at unprecedented levels..