Why does Berdych excel against Federer & Murray, yet struggle against Nadal & Djoker?

[tank_job]

Could be that he doesn't like playing against good defense, but Murray is meant to be able to play good defense. Well, maybe Murray's defense sucks compared to Djokovic's and Nadal's?

Theoretically, being a tall(ish) flat-hitter with long arms and a high strike zone, he should do well against Nadal, but he is awful against him.

He is also awful against Djokovic, who plays almost the same game as Murray. But I guess Djokovic does every single aspect of the game better than Murray, which is why he beats Berdych and Murray doesn't?

 

[Fedex]

Could be that he doesn't like playing against good defense, but Murray is meant to be able to play good defense. Well, maybe Murray's defense sucks compared to Djokovic's and Nadal's?

Theoretically, being a tall(ish) flat-hitter with long arms and a high strike zone, he should do well against Nadal, but he is awful against him.

He is also awful against Djokovic, who plays almost the same game as Murray. But I guess Djokovic does every single aspect of the game better than Murray, which is why he beats Berdych and Murray doesn't?

Berdych also beat Djokovic in a Wimbledon semi final.

 

[TennisLovaLova]

Djoko and nadal NEVER leave their baseline and dont expose themselves to Berdych's passing shots.
To defeat Berdych you need to outplay him from the baseline, which federer failed to do yesterday.
And also maybe he has that extra motivation when he plays the King.

 

[roysid]

Why Berdych does well against Federer:
In his own words
Asked why he always seems to play well against Federer, Berdych replied “There is something in my game that he doesn't like. It makes him a bit struggle, I would say, and maybe brings him out of his comfort zone that he always likes to be in on court.

“He always like to have time,” Berdych added, “and he always like to be the one who is dictating the game.”

What he said was perfect. When Fed is out of comfort zone because of Berdych's big hitting, he tries crazy winners

 

[roysid]

Why Berdych doesn't do well against Rafa:
- Well Berdych used to beat Nadal in 2005 and 2006. But since then Nadal has improved his defense a lot. He gradually wears down Berdych by baseline play.

Against Murray and Djokovic:
I think Murray and Djokovic will fare better against Berdych. They have solid baseline game.

 

[syc23]

Let's see what Sat brings as Berdy and Murray is locked 2-2 on HC with the Scot winning the last meeting in Dubai. Berdy's win record over Murray is a bit lop sided as 2 matches was played on clay and Paris masters when Murray was injured.

Monte Carlo: Murray was injured
Dubai: Murray schooled the Czech in straights
Paris Masters: Murray was injured and could've won the match on TB
French Open: Murray was immature and was disinterested with rain delays and his game on clay was not what it is now

 

[Alchemy-Z]

When he plays Fed....Fed can't handle the pace and tries to hit stupid winners and rack up errors.

When he plays Nadal....Nadal like the pace/is happy to play high % tennis from the baseline and will let the big man wear himself out bashing the ball.

Novak is the same as Nadal as far as this goes they just both defend defend defend-then look for an opening.

Fed will not wait for a rally to mature...he wants his points soon as possible.

and as he's getting older it's becoming even more so.

 

[Tennis_Maestro]

First of all, Berdych doesn't particularly excel against Murray, he beat him on clay and that is expected. One or two wins on hardcourt in masters events when Murray is not in good form means next to nothing.

The reason he struggles against Novak and Rafa is quite simple, movement, offensive defensive skills. Against Federer he doesn't get the same effective defence coming back @ him. Federer feels a pressure to "go for his shots" more against Berdych, as he knows what the Czech is capable of. Fed doesn't play with a game-plan really, he relies entirely on instinct and natural slick, finese and glide.. subconciously, he probably believes its best if he thinks less and goes for his shots in an even more free-er and natural-esk way against Berdych. This leaves him open to more unforced errors.

Also, Berdych with his forehand going to the Federer backhand is a lot more easier than going to Novak or Rafa's and even Andy's backhand... there is a glitch on Federer's armour and with a massive flat shot, you can expose that glitch if the bloke is not quite hitting his forehand as superbly by biding your time and getting onto your massive flat shot. Its why Tsonga has such success against Federer also and always fails versus Murray, Nadal and Djokovic.

 

[Prisoner of Birth]

Simple.

Federer is (way) past his prime.

Murray is not as good as Nadal or Djokovic (yet).

 

[BeHappy]

He used to be great against Nadal, especially that amazing victory in Madrid in 2007, when he took on the crowd telling them to be quiet, and then won. And I remember on clay back when Nadal was in the middle of that 80 something match winning streak he took a set off Nadal 6-1 in a claycourt final.

After that 2007 Madrid match though he was criticised by the Spanish press and Nadal was cold to him and... Berdych has never been the same against Nadal since. It's weird.

 

[DRII]

Berdych has the pace to go after Federer's forehand side which then exposes his weaker backhand. This is also why Nole (2.0 - on) has success against Federer, and why Murray still struggles against Federer in the big matches. Murray does not have enough pace off his cross court forehand (lack of racquet head speed) to keep Federer away from camping out on his backhand side.

Federer is still playing great tennis and has not substantially declined from peak. But one thing that has decreased (and not been mitigated by a coresponding improvement) is his speed in defending the forehand side. Only a few players are good enough to exploit this, Berdych with his power and pace is one of them.

 

[batz]

Berdych has the pace to go after Federer's forehand side which then exposes his weaker backhand. This is also why Nole (2.0 - on) has success against Federer, and why Murray still struggles against Federer in the big matches. Murray does not have enough pace off his cross court forehand (lack of racquet head speed) to keep Federer away from camping out on his backhand side.

Federer is still playing great tennis and has not substantially declined from peak. But one thing that has decreased (and not been mitigated by a coresponding improvement) is his speed in defending the forehand side. Only a few players are good enough to exploit this, Berdych with his power and pace is one of them.

So what happened at the OG final? And the other 8 wins Murray had? How come the worst beatdowns to date, whether best of 3 or best of 5, have been from Murray to Roger (5 and 7 games dropped respectively)? If Berdych is so superior to Murray against Roger how come he has such an inferior H2h?

 

[tank_job]

So what happened at the OG final? And the other 8 wins Murray had? How come the worst beatdowns to date, whether best of 3 or best of 5, have been from Murray to Roger (5 and 7 games dropped respectively)? If Berdych is so superior to Murray against Roger how come he has such an inferior H2h?

Berdych is something like 2-1 in slams against Federer, Murray is 0-3.

Proves that when it actually matters, Federer can routine Murray.

 

[batz]

Berdych is something like 2-1 in slams against Federer, Murray is 0-3.

Proves that when it actually matters, Federer can routine Murray.

*sigh* So the OG final didn't matter then? Neither did Roger's losses to Murray in the WTF or Masters Finals - Roger let Murray have those did he becasue they didn't matter?

Fact is we'll never know if Roger would 'routine' Murray at the USO because he wasn't able to make the semis.

Live in the now dude, live in the now.

 

[tudwell]

Berdych is something like 2-1 in slams against Federer, Murray is 0-3.

Proves that when it actually matters, Federer can routine Murray.

Federer is 4-2 against Berdych in majors after their match yesterday.

 

[batz]

Federer is 4-2 against Berdych in majors after their match yesterday.

It doesn't matter to troll_job - he just pulls things out of his arse and presents them as facts.

It's what he does.

 

[jmverdugo]

He doesn't like to play pushers...

 

[Tennis_Maestro]

Tank job, you're a rookie, instead of posting so much and making silly threads, perhaps you would be better off jus observing and learning?

 

[DRII]

It doesn't matter to troll_job - he just pulls things out of his arse and presents them as facts.

It's what he does.

Uhm, 2-1 and 4-2 are the same ratio! His (and my) basic point remains...

In the big matches, Murray struggles against Federer; I think because of his lack of pace on the forehand side, especially going cross court thus allowing Federer to camp in his back hand corner and dictate with his forehand from all around the court...

The SOG final: well Federer was spent and had hardly any energy...

 

[NadalAgassi]

A number of reasons:

-Djokovic and Nadal are in general better players than Federer at this point of Federer's career, and of course better players than Murray thus far.

-Berdych has a huge mental block vs Nadal IMO. I still remember their match at Wimbledon 2007 where many expected Berdych to win and go on to reach the final. Nadal played one of his best and most agressive matches and spanked Berdych, not only defending amazingly well but even overpowering him from the baseline amazingly. Nadal wont play at that level each match, and Berdych was affected by the wind, but Berdych couldnt seem to cope mentally with that one sided defeat and never plays the same way vs Nadal since, plays very scared.

-Murray can go soft and overly defensive vs a bigger hitter. He has too much variety and options for his own good sometimes. Nadal and to an even larger extent Djokovic while known first and foremost as two of the all time best defensive players, dont play overly soft defensive tennis hardly ever, even their counterpunching is quite agressive, and Djokovic's offense particularly is very tough, while Nadal with his heavy balls that push you back and ability to flatten out when he wants can be as well, and it is a tough combination for Berdych to deal with.

-Prime Federer pretty much owned Berdych. Berdych didnt start to have success until mid 2010 really. Federer at this stage of his career isnt as good defender as Nadal or Djokovic, and isnt as good a returner of serve as Djokovic or Murray, and in general he seems to have difficulty coping with huge power now which he didnt in his prime.

 

[NadalAgassi]

So what happened at the OG final? And the other 8 wins Murray had? How come the worst beatdowns to date, whether best of 3 or best of 5, have been from Murray to Roger (5 and 7 games dropped respectively)? If Berdych is so superior to Murray against Roger how come he has such an inferior H2h?

Well Berdych has beaten Federer in more huge matches than Murray has. Twice in slams and the Olympics. Murray only the Olympics. Not that the other matches dont matter of course, just that those matter even more. So who has done better in the H2H, well overall Murray, but when it matters most Berdych. On top of those wins I mentioned Berdych blew a 2 sets to 0 lead vs Federer at the 2009 Australian. In the biggest matches Federer pretty much has the measure of Murray with relative ease so far (until the Olympics), Berdych has been his nemisis for a few years now. The Olympic win for Berdych was even in Federer's prime remember.

 

[Tennis_Maestro]

A number of reasons:

-Djokovic and Nadal are in general better players than Federer at this point of Federer's career, and of course better players than Murray thus far.

-Berdych has a huge mental block vs Nadal IMO. I still remember their match at Wimbledon 2007 where many expected Berdych to win and go on to reach the final. Nadal played one of his best and most agressive matches and spanked Berdych, not only defending amazingly well but even overpowering him from the baseline amazingly. Nadal wont play at that level each match, and Berdych was affected by the wind, but Berdych couldnt seem to cope mentally with that one sided defeat and never plays the same way vs Nadal since, plays very scared.

-Murray can go soft and overly defensive vs a bigger hitter. He has too much variety and options for his own good sometimes. Nadal and to an even larger extent Djokovic while known first and foremost as two of the all time best defensive players, dont play overly soft defensive tennis hardly ever, even their counterpunching is quite agressive, and Djokovic's offense particularly is very tough, while Nadal with his heavy balls that push you back and ability to flatten out when he wants can be as well, and it is a tough combination for Berdych to deal with.

-Prime Federer pretty much owned Berdych. Berdych didnt start to have success until mid 2010 really. Federer at this stage of his career isnt as good defender as Nadal or Djokovic, and isnt as good a returner of serve as Djokovic or Murray, and in general he seems to have difficulty coping with huge power now which he didnt in his prime.

On grass and indoor-hardcourts Nadal and Djokovic are better than Federer @ this time in his career? :roll:

Berdych beat Federer on grass.

If you genuinely believe Novak and Rafa are better than Roger on fast surfaces then you're kidding yourself.

 

[RoddickAce]

Berdych is something like 2-1 in slams against Federer, Murray is 0-3.

Proves that when it actually matters, Federer can routine Murray.

Uhm, 2-1 and 4-2 are the same ratio! His (and my) basic point remains...

In the big matches, Murray struggles against Federer; I think because of his lack of pace on the forehand side, especially going cross court thus allowing Federer to camp in his back hand corner and dictate with his forehand from all around the court...

The SOG final: well Federer was spent and had hardly any energy...

I think by, "2-1 in slams against Federer" he meant, Berdych 2 wins Fed 1 win.

 

[tank_job]

I think by, "2-1 in slams against Federer" he meant, Berdych 2 wins Fed 1 win.

No, I thought Bird **** beat ******* twice in slams (wimby 2010, USO 2012), and ******* beat him once (2009 AO).

Turns out the old man has fluked more slam wins against bird **** than I realized

 

[NadalAgassi]

On grass and indoor-hardcourts Nadal and Djokovic are better than Federer @ this time in his career? :roll:

Berdych beat Federer on grass.

If you genuinely believe Novak and Rafa are better than Roger on fast surfaces then you're kidding yourself.

Fact 1: Djokovic and Nadal have done better than Federer at the last 2 U.S Opens, and Djokovic now certain to make that 3 in a row.

Fact 2: Djokovic and Nadal have done better than Federer at 2 of the last 3 Wimbledons.

Wimbledon this year was the only time since 2009 Federer has fared better than either at either event. This years Wimbledon is the first Wimbledon since 2007 Nadal has played where Federer had the better result. So if you geniunely believe on the whole Nadal and Djokovic arent better most times at this stage of Federer's career anywhere but indoors you are the delusional one.

Berdych beat Federer at grass at Wimbledon 2010 btw where Federer was horrendous from start to finish. Are you actually suggesting Federer was playing better tennis than Nadal at Wimbledon 2010, ROTFL!!!! Djokovic was also crap there and did lose to Berdych as well, so your attempted point there is again no point.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Because Nadal and Djokovic is better than Federer and Murray

 

[bluetrain4]

OP's question is a good question. Of course, the short answer is simply "matchups." Even though the Big 4 are all, overall, better than Berdych, why would we expect them all to do exactly the same against him? Players bring different things to the table, even if they play the same general game style.

Fed - I think it's been answered correctly by a lot of posters. Fed doesn't play the type of defense that Nadal and Djokovic do. Berdych has a big game, which gets Fed away from dictating the points - he feels pressured, rushed, and goes for more than he would against a different opponent. Thus, he makes more errors. Plus, by this point, Berdych is probably simply more comfortable vs. Fed than the others and that little bit of extra confidence helps him hit out and simply play better. And, he does have tangible weapons.

Nadal/Djokovic - it's the defense. Again, Berdych is great, but like all big hitters, can be streaky. Nadal and Djokovic are so adept at running balls down, making Berdych hit another shot, that they can simply wear him down. He'll start missing. Plus, don't forget that they both have great passing shots and can go on the offensive themselves. But, instead of just "going for it" because they feel pressued like Fed sometimes does, they do more classic defense to offense, where they make Berdych get balls back, Berdych eventually puts something short back, and Nadal and Djokovic will take their opporunity.

Murray - he does a lot of what Nadal and Djokovic do in terms of defense, yet Berdych does better against him than the others. Why? It's probably just intangibles. I'm thinking that Berdych likes Murray's ball better than Nadal's or Djokovic's - the ball flight, the arch, etc. Murray often hits his backhand pretty flat and his forehand, if not actually flat, is often hit at a low trajectory, and I think Berdych likes that and feels more comfortable with that, even though, in theory, being as tall as he is, he shouldn't be too bothered by higher balls. Also, generally, Murray doesn't play defense from as far back as Nadal and Djokovic and can be a little more susceptible to a particularly hard, deep shot from Berdych changing the dynamic of a point from neutral or Murray being "ahead" in the point to Berdych being ahead in the point.

 

[Devilito]

Berdych already gave the reason and its clear cut. Styles make matches. Federer likes time on his shots and likes to dictate play. Berdych took that away from him which caused Fed to push out of his comfort zone and start making more errors. Nadal and Djokovic are already used to playing defense point after point and grinding with someone like Berdych does nothing to change their game style. Berdych also makes more errors trying to generate his own pace. Against Fed who was trying to go shot for shot with him, he was able to win the “harder, harder, harder” game. In that match Fed really showed his lack of ability to adjust when things aren’t going his way. He’s dominated so many years with his talent and superior game play that he really has no “plan B”

 

[tudwell]

Uhm, 2-1 and 4-2 are the same ratio! His (and my) basic point remains...

Uh, no it doesn't. He said Berdych led the head-to-head 2-1, when in fact he is trailing 2-4. It's not anything close to the same.

 

[DRII]

Uh, no it doesn't. He said Berdych led the head-to-head 2-1, when in fact he is trailing 2-4. It's not anything close to the same.

I assumed he meant 2-1 in favor of Federer,regardless...

He's beaten Federer in slams while Murray has not, thats the point.

 

[roberttennis54]

A number of reasons:

-Djokovic and Nadal are in general better players than Federer at this point of Federer's career, and of course better players than Murray thus far.

-Berdych has a huge mental block vs Nadal IMO. I still remember their match at Wimbledon 2007 where many expected Berdych to win and go on to reach the final. Nadal played one of his best and most agressive matches and spanked Berdych, not only defending amazingly well but even overpowering him from the baseline amazingly. Nadal wont play at that level each match, and Berdych was affected by the wind, but Berdych couldnt seem to cope mentally with that one sided defeat and never plays the same way vs Nadal since, plays very scared.

-Murray can go soft and overly defensive vs a bigger hitter. He has too much variety and options for his own good sometimes. Nadal and to an even larger extent Djokovic while known first and foremost as two of the all time best defensive players, dont play overly soft defensive tennis hardly ever, even their counterpunching is quite agressive, and Djokovic's offense particularly is very tough, while Nadal with his heavy balls that push you back and ability to flatten out when he wants can be as well, and it is a tough combination for Berdych to deal with.

-Prime Federer pretty much owned Berdych. Berdych didnt start to have success until mid 2010 really. Federer at this stage of his career isnt as good defender as Nadal or Djokovic, and isnt as good a returner of serve as Djokovic or Murray, and in general he seems to have difficulty coping with huge power now which he didnt in his prime.

Pretty much the truth, but defence is the not the key. It is being fast and being able to turn defence into offence on the run quickly.

It's not just Nadal and Djokovic. Berdych is probably slightly better now than he was before, but not by any noticeable difference.

Blake(off clay) and Davydenko completely destroyed Berdych. Blake and Davydenko despite being very very fast are actually not great defensive players. Federer is just too slow.

Like I said it's funny how people make fun of the 00-02, but in my opinion old Sampras is better than Old Federer.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Pretty much the truth, but defence is the not the key. It is being fast and being able to turn defence into offence on the run quickly.

It's not just Nadal and Djokovic. Berdych is probably slightly better now than he was before, but not by any noticeable difference.

Blake(off clay) and Davydenko completely destroyed Berdych. Blake and Davydenko despite being very very fast are actually not great defensive players. Federer is just too slow.

Like I said it's funny how people make fun of the 00-02, but in my opinion old Sampras is better than Old Federer.

Yeah I agree with that. Nadal and Djokovic are great at being offensive from very defensive positions, are certainly fast enough to do it easily, and are great at turning defense into offense in points as well. Blake and Davydenko can do this as well, and as you said you see the matchup problems they present for Berdych, great example. Federer at this stage isnt quite fast enough to do this. Murray just isnt offensive minded enough to do this well enough.

 

[chrischris]

Djoko and nadal NEVER leave their baseline and dont expose themselves to Berdych's passing shots.
To defeat Berdych you need to outplay him from the baseline, which federer failed to do yesterday.
And also maybe he has that extra motivation when he plays the King.

Nadal does leave the baseline. A lot too.

Key here ,imo ,is the spin and angles that Nadal and Nole are able to create and that tends to cause Berdy's rhythm to get bumped up.
Also the over use of time plus 25 seconds pre serve and also when receiving when Berdy's serving causes him to do worse in the serve and in the retrun game.

 

[tank_job]

aha, I didn't realize how much Davydenko destroyed Bird ****. 9-2 H2H. The slamless Russian really is GOAT material.

 

[chrischris]

Berdych already gave the reason and its clear cut. Styles make matches. Federer likes time on his shots and likes to dictate play. Berdych took that away from him which caused Fed to push out of his comfort zone and start making more errors. Nadal and Djokovic are already used to playing defense point after point and grinding with someone like Berdych does nothing to change their game style. Berdych also makes more errors trying to generate his own pace. Against Fed who was trying to go shot for shot with him, he was able to win the “harder, harder, harder” game. In that match Fed really showed his lack of ability to adjust when things aren’t going his way. He’s dominated so many years with his talent and superior game play that he really has no “plan B”

True too..

 

[chrischris]

aha, I didn't realize how much Davydenko destroyed Bird ****. 9-2 H2H. The slamless Russian really is GOAT material.

Davys got the angles and spin to make Berdy move..

 

[monfed]

Because TBerd doesn't like to hit 10-15 winners to win ONE point.

 

[roberttennis54]

Davys got the angles and spin to make Berdy move..

No Davydenko is just very quick takes the ball early and can hit winners on the run. Yes he can hit great angles, but that is not what won him the matches against Berdych.

 

[augustobt]

time to bump it.

 

[Agassifan]

Well, Berdych doesn't excel against federer. Federer is 11-5 against him, including 5-2 in slams.

 

[Love all]

Due to Federer's weaker defence as compared to Nadal and Djoker and inability to sustain the power of the Berdych ground strokes. Federer shots often are sitters for Berdych to launch massive forehands.

 

[VPhuc tennis fan]

Could be that he doesn't like playing against good defense, but Murray is meant to be able to play good defense. Well, maybe Murray's defense sucks compared to Djokovic's and Nadal's?

Theoretically, being a tall(ish) flat-hitter with long arms and a high strike zone, he should do well against Nadal, but he is awful against him.

He is also awful against Djokovic, who plays almost the same game as Murray. But I guess Djokovic does every single aspect of the game better than Murray, which is why he beats Berdych and Murray doesn't?

His wins against Fed were a fluke! Birdie Man is a wimp (mentally) for all his size! For him to be blasted out off the court by Djoker, who just had a > 5 hour match a day ago, is mind-boggling! The difference between contender and pretender!

 

[VPhuc tennis fan]

Well Berdych has beaten Federer in more huge matches than Murray has. Twice in slams and the Olympics. Murray only the Olympics. Not that the other matches dont matter of course, just that those matter even more. So who has done better in the H2H, well overall Murray, but when it matters most Berdych. On top of those wins I mentioned Berdych blew a 2 sets to 0 lead vs Federer at the 2009 Australian. In the biggest matches Federer pretty much has the measure of Murray with relative ease so far (until the Olympics), Berdych has been his nemisis for a few years now. The Olympic win for Berdych was even in Federer's prime remember.

I wouldn't read too much in Birdie Man's wins against Fed! An aberration IMO. The guy is too damn weak mentally to be anything than a pretender! Him and Tsonga, tanking all the big matches against the top 4 most of the the time! Actually, I was wishing he falls in Fed's side this AO, just so that Fed can revenge his USO loss. Too bad that Djoker already kicked his butts out! And this happens about 1 day and half after Djoker had a > 5 hour match! Birdie Man is a joke!