Arm friendliness, it's really the string, not the racquet, right?

anfield · Apr 13, 2018

I had my first encounter with TE a couple of weeks ago and all I did was change strings. I was using the RF for the last six months with no arm pain whatsoever, well, some tiredness. But just after two hard sessions with Tour bite mains @ 54, syn gut cross @58 I had actual pain in my elbow.

I've done two hard sessions with my Gut @58, KB Max Power 17 @ 55 many times and never felt a twinge. The only other factor is the string job was a couple months old, but never really hit with it, just kept in my bag. Not sure if the poly was still 'alive' and that was the issue, or is it just poly?

Maybe because of the combined weight and stiffness of the RFs I felt like I had to take a huge cut to get it to reaction with the poly mains. With the gut I could just get the mass of the stick do the hard work.

The sticks had the same, grip, weight and balance, so you could say it was a controlled experiment. I know TB is quite stiff, but I tried a fresh full-bed in a Vcore Duel G 330 @55 and it felt quite nice. I'm thinking out loud here, but is it that poly really the culprit, or that people play 'dead' poly too often and that gets them overhitting, or is it the shock of that dead poly, or poly in general?

I know there are a million factors, softer polys, stick RA, balance, but considering I played the same frame for six months with no pain, then poly for two days in a matched frame and then had pain in my elbow. What actually shot up to my elbow to cause that pain?

String experts please feel free to chime in and thanks in advance. I am shopping around for new frames, but I'd like to know more about this string situation.

KaiserW · Apr 14, 2018

The RF is really stiff. I liked the way Cyclone played in it but too stiff for me. Went back to gut/poly and much more comfortable.

I think it is a combination of racquet and string, not just one factor.

You actually contradict your theory saying TB is arm friendly in the Yonex so I think you have your answer. Depends on the racquet and string.

USPTARF97 · Apr 14, 2018

Same experience with the RF97. Play 57/54-58/55 with Gut/poly but with Poly/ Syn Gut have to stay around 48/52-50/54 or gets pretty tough on the arm. Play poly at 48-50 in the RF but rarely do that as it plays best for me with soft mains and poly cross.
The most string sensitive racquet I have ever used.

anfield · Apr 14, 2018

KaiserW said:
You actually contradict your theory saying TB is arm friendly in the Yonex so I think you have your answer

If you read more carefully, I say the poly may have been dead on the RF, and stated the poly was fresh in the 330. I specifically ask, could it just be 'dead' poly.

I'm not trying to win a contest, I'm trying to figure out some safety issues with my arm.
"I know TB is quite stiff, but I tried a fresh full-bed in a Vcore Duel G 330 @55 and it felt quite nice. I'm thinking out loud here, but is it that poly really the culprit, or that people play 'dead' poly too often and that gets them overhitting, or is it the shock of that dead poly, or poly in general?"

Irvin · Apr 14, 2018

Your mechanics, the racket, and the string all play a part and in that order in my opinion. But changing the string could change the other 2 and you may not even know it. Playing with old string (depending on the string) could cause you to change your mechanics.

USPTARF97 · Apr 14, 2018

anfield said:
If you read more carefully, I say the poly may have been dead on the RF, and stated the poly was fresh in the 330. I specifically ask, could it just be 'dead' poly.

I'm not trying to win a contest, I'm trying to figure out some safety issues with my arm.
"I know TB is quite stiff, but I tried a fresh full-bed in a Vcore Duel G 330 @55 and it felt quite nice. I'm thinking out loud here, but is it that poly really the culprit, or that people play 'dead' poly too often and that gets them overhitting, or is it the shock of that dead poly, or poly in general?"

RF97 will make you pay with stiffness of string in the mains and too high tension.

KaiserW · Apr 14, 2018

anfield said:
If you read more carefully, I say the poly may have been dead on the RF, and stated the poly was fresh in the 330. I specifically ask, could it just be 'dead' poly.

I'm not trying to win a contest, I'm trying to figure out some safety issues with my arm.
"I know TB is quite stiff, but I tried a fresh full-bed in a Vcore Duel G 330 @55 and it felt quite nice. I'm thinking out loud here, but is it that poly really the culprit, or that people play 'dead' poly too often and that gets them overhitting, or is it the shock of that dead poly, or poly in general?"

But you said it was just after two sessions you had elbow pain, poly does not go dead that fast. My point is the RF is very stiff especially with full poly. But like USPTA mentions you could try low tension but still won't feel as nice and comfy as gut/poly.

Moveforwardalways · Apr 14, 2018

It is 100% the strings. Stiff racquets are not new. They’ve been around forever. Poly strings are new. You do the math.

Ever heard of someone playing with a Pure Aero or Pure Drive with synthetic gut that got arm issues? Nope.

sredna42 · Apr 14, 2018

Irvin said:
Your machanics, the racket, and the string all play a part and in that order in my opinion. But changing the string could change the other 2 and you may knot even know it. Playing with old string (depending on the string) could cause you to change your mechanics.

Good point on swing mechanics being a big culprit, it is something that has become apparent to me of late.

Deleted member 756272 · Apr 14, 2018

It could be the racquet too! In my situation, I kept the strings/ tension constant and only switched frames. It only took a month to develop wrist problems. Causes are multiple:
- Hitting with a <12 oz frame against hard hitters lead to compensating
- Form got way too loopy and wristy which was enabled by the lighter racket
- Switched from smaller head size to larger (90 -> 95)

The answer here is that it depends on all of the factors (string, racket, mechanics). I've since been taping my wrist, did not hit for 2 months and switched back to >12oz rackets. No more wrist pain!

During the 2 months off though, I've poured over the forum and found posts that swore that lighter rackets reduce arm pain and heavier rackets reduce arm pain. So it seems that racket weight goes both ways. The only constant was that polys (especially stiff polys) are more likely to cause arm pain. I have a stack of multifilaments to hybrid with synth gut to test in the upcoming year to find the right combo for my game.

Traffic · Apr 14, 2018

Irvin said:
Your machanics, the racket, and the string all play a part and in that order in my opinion. But changing the string could change the other 2 and you may knot even know it. Playing with old string (depending on the string) could cause you to change your mechanics.

I've started to move away from string combos that are very spin friendly as my mechanics change. Even with current setup, as my confidence goes up, my mechanics change as well and my elbow gets sore.

With a sore elbow, any little differences in "stiffness" is easily felt. I've had to put my Velocity/Cream down and pick up my Legend/Cream for a practice session. I can't even last a warm up session with my sons PS98 with HyperG at that soreness.

anfield · Apr 14, 2018

KaiserW said:
But you said it was just after two sessions you had elbow pain, poly does not go dead that fast. My point is the RF is very stiff especially with full poly. But like USPTA mentions you could try low tension but still won't feel as nice and comfy as gut/poly.

I said the poly was strung two months ago, that I did not use the stick much at all and was mainly just in my bag. Part of my overall question is can poly just go dead like that.

Irvin said:
Playing with old string (depending on the string) could cause you to change your mechanics.

I did feel like I had to take a huge cut to get a reaction. Stiff, bukly, heavy frame needs a certain amount of energy to get a reaction, but then put a poly in there and it needs that extra ooomf, that could have caused the pain, but prolly more so with 'deadish' poly. I also noticed my hand was quite sore. So built up my grip a bit, but it never really hurt with the gut in.

But this brief encounter with TE got me looking for new sticks.

Moveforwardalways said:
Ever heard of someone playing with a Pure Aero or Pure Drive with synthetic gut that got arm issues? Nope.

This is so funny, back in 2011 I started playing again for a bit, got the Aero GT, always had syn gut in, no issues. Then my friend let me try is Roddick with RPM and I was like, that does not feel good.

I sold the RFs and gave the Vcore 330 Pro a whirl. Just that extra flex and 20mm frame I could really get around my forehands and serves so much easier. I felt like I had an extra half second on forehands, if I was late I could take a full cut, with the RF I had to do a lot of 3/4 pick up type shots - their weights and balance were matched. Also really liking the Prestige Pro Graphene Touch, not the best stick for feedback, but really consistent on all shots, no real weak spot. I feel demoed it with Hawk Touch and it was super comfy.

Would Hawk Touch be 'safe' in a PP Touch? I'd assume so as long as I restrung it often, right?

Kevo · Apr 14, 2018

The string and tension can make the most difference to how the impact with the ball feels. Technique I think is second, and the frame would be next IMO.

SpinToWin · Apr 14, 2018

It’s both. Amazing how you can’t make it all about one variable.

KaiserW · Apr 14, 2018

anfield said:
I said the poly was strung two months ago, that I did not use the stick much at all and was mainly just in my bag. Part of my overall question is can poly just go dead like that.

Imo no poly doesn't go dead from sitting in the bag.

Steve Huff · Apr 14, 2018

you may knot even know it

Irvin, you've been stringing too long.

dominikk1985 · Apr 14, 2018

I think it is both. A stiff frame can make it worse. However if you use dead poly it probably overrides any other factor because it is so bad.

ByeByePoly · Apr 14, 2018

Moveforwardalways said:
It is 100% the strings. Stiff racquets are not new. They’ve been around forever. Poly strings are new. You do the math.

Ever heard of someone playing with a Pure Aero or Pure Drive with synthetic gut that got arm issues? Nope.

I 100% agree with Moveforwardalways's 100%. I never saw one case (tournament and USTA) of TE in 25+ years. We all had lightweight stiff racquets, and played with sg or multi. A lot of bad technique, although I doubt there was much constant mishitting. I think that is part of the problem that comes with poly. We all want poly because it gives us a chance for bigger spin. We take more low to high swings, and you are going to miss the center more. That's the other thing that comes into play with a heavier racquet. If it's too much for you, and it keeps you from hitting it on the screws, you would be better off using a weight you have better timing with.

Put a multi in at mid-tension or less in the stiffest racquet made, and you would have to be a mishitting machine to give yourself TE.

All of the rest of the conversation, technique, heavier racquet (mass), headlight, swing weight, RA ... became a thing to mitigate poly (particularly poly mishits). If you are a Nadal, you can swing a stock (fairly light, and very stiff) racquet at 100mph with stiff poly because he still hits it mainly on the screws.

The difference in elasticity between a multi and poly is A LOT.

The difference between RA 72 and RA 60 at contact is minor in comparison to the difference between rpm and velocity (according to my post TE elbow). The difference in racquets no doubt might keep you below a threshold for your elbow that allows you to play poly... until it doesn't.

Muppet · Apr 14, 2018

If you have a stiff racquet, you will probably figure out that you need to hold it softly to allow for the shock. But I have racquets between RA 56 and 63. You can hold the handle tight for a while, but you will still get the shock albeit a little slower. It can still hurt your arm if you don't ease off your grip.

A stiffer racquet is great for directional control with enough tension on the strings. It's a really crisp feel, but it may take some getting used to to learn your accuracy with it. And it's not so comfy.

A flexy racquet requires you to tune in on your proper tension. A little too loose and you'll have a trampoline and a little too tight and you'll have a catapult, flexing from the frame. Just right tension for the right string will give you the string bed deflection that you want and the right frame flex for comfort and control.

Dartagnan64 · Apr 14, 2018

It's a lot of age, a dab of poly and a pinch of frame. Mix it with poor technique and bake for 20+ years and voila a beautiful case of TE.

One thing I've learned from these boards is that everyone has a slightly different recipe. For me, frame and string are equal portions. I could not get my arm to feel better with my PD+ with any string including FB natty gut. Just kept getting worse. So I tried multis in a Wilson Blade. Didn't get worse but no better. Then finally went with a Phantom and now I'm better.

So it was poly that started it, but it took a flexy frame to fix it.

Stretchy Man · Apr 14, 2018

Rod Laver had great technique and used flexible racquets with natural gut but he still got TE.

ByeByePoly · Apr 14, 2018

Dartagnan64 said:
It's a lot of age, a dab of poly and a pinch of frame. Mix it with poor technique and bake for 20+ years and voila a beautiful case of TE.

One thing I've learned from these boards is that everyone has a slightly different recipe. For me, frame and string are equal portions. I could not get my arm to feel better with my PD+ with any string including FB natty gut. Just kept getting worse. So I tried multis in a Wilson Blade. Didn't get worse but no better. Then finally went with a Phantom and now I'm better.

So it was poly that started it, but it took a flexy frame to fix it.

I bet if you never played poly you could now be playing with Wilson Profile with sg @60+ with no worries ... other than hitting the fence on the fly.

Shroud · Apr 14, 2018

My 2 cents in the op the issue is the syngut crosses. They lock and make it more harsh. Use a cross that doesnt lock

Never thought the RF97a was stiff myself.

anfield · Apr 14, 2018

Shroud said:
My 2 cents in the op the issue is the syngut crosses.

Thank you @Shroud , someone who gave some concrete advice to my actual question. The RF is not that stiff in my opinion either. It has great feedback when you strike it well, the sweet spot is quite big and the frame feels organic. There are sticks that have a lower RA rating that feel harsher and artificial to me. The combo of the weight, beefiness, PWS, velvet paint make it quite a nice ride if you have the skills.

I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners. To me, it just not that much fun on serve and forehand compared to the Vcore 330 Pro. No stick is going to perform great on all strokes. It's like asking a car to do Monaco, Paris to Dakar and haul groceries, something has to give.

As I've never had arm problems with the RF, and I've been playing a long time, the one time I switch to poly, I get a minor dose of TE, I'm going to ask questions of the strings. Now could this be solved with sting savers, or just a better cross?

ByeByePoly · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
Thank you @Shroud , someone who gave some concrete advice to my actual question. The RF is not that stiff in my opinion either. It has great feedback when you strike it well, the sweet spot is quite big and the frame feels organic. There are sticks that have a lower RA rating that feel harsher and artificial to me. The combo of the weight, beefiness, PWS, velvet paint make it quite a nice ride if you have the skills.

I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners. To me, it just not that much fun on serve and forehand compared to the Vcore 330 Pro. No stick is going to perform great on all strokes. It's like asking a car to do Monaco, Paris to Dakar and haul groceries, something has to give.

As I've never had arm problems with the RF, and I've been playing a long time, the one time I switch to poly, I get a minor dose of TE, I'm going to ask questions of the strings. Now could this be solved with sting savers, or just a better cross?

We all gave answers relevant to your question.

"I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners."

That was not relevant to your question.

Often, others can pick up information from a general discussion around the original question.

USPTARF97 · Apr 15, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
We all gave answers relevant to your question.

"I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners."

That was not relevant to your question.

Often, others can pick up information from a general discussion around the original question.

To the original post and question. You have been misled if you think what is hurting your arm is synthetic gut crosses. 54/58 is too high on the tension with the RF97 with poly mains. (RF97 has 68 stiffness rating) sorry but the RF97 is a stiff frame. Use the same set up and back off the tension about 6lbs and you will be surprised. That is based on actual experience of playing with the RF97 since it came out. Gut/poly is the best option at about $23 a frame and I string the same tension as you in the 57/54-58/55 range. Still use Poly/ Syngut at $7 a frame just to save money. 48/52-50/54 plays great. 50/54 is on the stiff side with Hyper G 1.25 or Tourbite 1.25 mains. Played with these strings and Gosen 1.30 crosses for a couple of years and the string bed never locked up. Actually played 10-12 hours and then would cut it out when the strings began to move excessively. Very easy on the arm at the lower tension with great control off the ground, serve, volleys and touch shots.

fuzz nation · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I had my first encounter with TE a couple of weeks ago and all I did was change strings. I was using the RF for the last six months with no arm pain whatsoever, well, some tiredness. But just after two hard sessions with Tour bite mains @ 54, syn gut cross @58 I had actual pain in my elbow.

I've done two hard sessions with my Gut @58, KB Max Power 17 @ 55 many times and never felt a twinge. The only other factor is the string job was a couple months old, but never really hit with it, just kept in my bag. Not sure if the poly was still 'alive' and that was the issue, or is it just poly?

Maybe because of the combined weight and stiffness of the RFs I felt like I had to take a huge cut to get it to reaction with the poly mains. With the gut I could just get the mass of the stick do the hard work.

The sticks had the same, grip, weight and balance, so you could say it was a controlled experiment. I know TB is quite stiff, but I tried a fresh full-bed in a Vcore Duel G 330 @55 and it felt quite nice. I'm thinking out loud here, but is it that poly really the culprit, or that people play 'dead' poly too often and that gets them overhitting, or is it the shock of that dead poly, or poly in general?

I know there are a million factors, softer polys, stick RA, balance, but considering I played the same frame for six months with no pain, then poly for two days in a matched frame and then had pain in my elbow. What actually shot up to my elbow to cause that pain?

String experts please feel free to chime in and thanks in advance. I am shopping around for new frames, but I'd like to know more about this string situation.

In my experience - playing forever and stringing for many locals for several years - a stiff racquet can be much more arm-friendly with softer string, but a rather flexible racquet does not do much to offset the inherent harshness of stiffer string like so many polys. As for the ratios, I'd say the arm friendliness of a rig is based at least two-thirds on string type/tension. I won't say the rest is only about the racquet's flex just because I think that the static weight, balance, etc. also substantially affect the fit and comfort of a frame for a particular player.

According to the serious string nerds, poly can "go dead" to some degree when it's just sitting there in a racquet under tension without being used on the courts. This is apparently much less the case with multi's or syn. gut. Those strings usually exhibit a little initial tension drop after installation, but then they pretty much settle in until we start using them. I personally don't much worry about this issue in poly, probably because I have the impression that this stuff is generally rather harsh, even when it's fresh, and there's no way to determine just how dead a particular bed might be.

In my personal trials, I've been surprised with how much less harsh of a ride I can get with a lighter gauge of poly. When I sampled a hybrid with a 1.20mm main combined with a 16 ga. syn. gut cross (all tensioned in the high 40's or low 50's), that seemed about as firm as a rather snug bed of full 16 ga. syn. gut. Heavier gauges of poly, even in a hybrid, make me feel like I'm hitting the ball with a two-by-four... and my arm doesn't care for it. But that's just me - we're all a little different.

If you need some firmness and control in your RF 97, try to get it using full syn. gut. While that string isn't generally quite as soft as multifiber, it is a more that mild step in the softer direction away from poly. If you can't resist the poly itch, I'd say try a rather light gauge in a hybrid like I mentioned above. Solinco Tour Bite is offered in some super thin options, but they might be a bit on the fragile side. Shaped poly can have a smaller cross section than a round poly of the same gauge - the edges make for less "meat" in the heart of the string. Maybe the 17 ga. would be the one to try. I've had great luck through recent years using Gosen OGSM 16 as a cross.

I'll try to keep tabs on this thread in case there are some other ideas I overlooked.

ByeByePoly · Apr 15, 2018

fuzz nation said:
I personally don't much worry about this issue in poly, probably because I have the impression that this stuff is generally rather harsh, even when it's fresh, and there's no way to determine just how dead a particular bed might be.

+1

Poly life cycle:

Freshly strung dead -> weekend at bernie's dead -> vampire roamed the earth for centuries dead

Shroud · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
Thank you @Shroud , someone who gave some concrete advice to my actual question. The RF is not that stiff in my opinion either. It has great feedback when you strike it well, the sweet spot is quite big and the frame feels organic. There are sticks that have a lower RA rating that feel harsher and artificial to me. The combo of the weight, beefiness, PWS, velvet paint make it quite a nice ride if you have the skills.

I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners. To me, it just not that much fun on serve and forehand compared to the Vcore 330 Pro. No stick is going to perform great on all strokes. It's like asking a car to do Monaco, Paris to Dakar and haul groceries, something has to give.

As I've never had arm problems with the RF, and I've been playing a long time, the one time I switch to poly, I get a minor dose of TE, I'm going to ask questions of the strings. Now could this be solved with sting savers, or just a better cross?

Thanks man. Just trying to help!

Yeah that racquet was for me pretty good except for the serve. Never could get that to work well, but groundies were amazing after I weighted that stick up. Crushed a ton of one handers with that stick

So you are right about the string savers and a better cross

There will be different experiences based on ones strokes but if you are a spinny player hitting topspin and kick serves, etc then you probably dont want a locked stringbed. It reduces the launch angle and diminishes spin. If you are a flat hitter you want a locked stringbed. The term locked is confusing but if your mains are crooked then its a locked stringbed. These are more harsh if you are hitting topspin. Syngut, multi, and natural gut all lock. Poly and strings like monogut zx dont lock as easy but do eventually (like weeks and months).

In your example the max power allows the mains to slide on impact this dissipating some of the impact over time while the syngut restricts the movement on impact making it more harsh. Also the syngut should lower rhe launch angle and you may be changing the stroke to compensate. That alone could lead to arm pain

You are on track with string savers and different crosses.

String savers depend. I am talking about babalot electro crosses. If you have gut/poly, electrocrosses will probably make that stringbed harsher since it will make the mains slide less than the gut poly does itself. But on a locked stringbed the electrocrosses will actually make it slide easier so will make it less harsh if you use enough

Also its good to just change one variable. So tourbite/max power would have been a better combo and with reduced tension say 5lbs would be friendlier than the syngut crosses imho.

Also a way to help is to reduce the crosses by 10-20 lbs as this will let the mains slide easier...

Edit: you could also try syngut mains with poly crosses but imho syngut is a pointless option unless you hit flat. Then its like crack

USPTARF97 · Apr 15, 2018

It is a foreign solution on this forum, that if a string combination/racquet is tough on the arm you simply need to lower the tension. Works in this situation. The idea that you have TE from playing poly/syn gut and the solution provided is to put another poly in the cross and you will be fine..not smart with an RF97. If not interested in lowering the tension of the poly/syn gut, would go back to the gut/poly where your arm was fine. No need for extremes.

anfield · Apr 15, 2018

Shroud said:
Poly and strings like monogut zx dont lock as easy but do eventually (like weeks and months).

I'm very curious about this string. I was playing VS Touch in the mains of the RF and it was a delight. But I live on the east coast and it's going to get hot and humid. Not sure how well it responds to such weather. Syngut in the mains worked, but popped a couple stings on serve, but was playing 17g TNT with TB 17 cross.

I like that syngut is light as well, I had one RF down to 338g with a lighter grip. But then added 4g at 7". I never did figure out how to do the MgR/I calculation/test, but I could feel weight there and it made it really solid on groundies. With the lighter set up serving was better. One thing the RF forces you to do is reevaluate your strokes, esp service motion. To really open up the shoulders and get the let the weight do the work. With a flexier stick with poly serving is so easy that you can get lazy with your motion. It also encourages you to get to the ball earlier with groundies.

With the RF I hit medium spin, my OHBH is fairly flat and the forehand can be worked on rollers, but noticed when I played doubles at my clinic with lower players I struggled hitting consistent forehands. With light balls coming, it's harder to get the ball up and down compared to the Vcore 330, I also can't hit inside out at well, with the 330 I can actually get a bit of sidespin. With the RF, I just resigned to hitting bigger targets, and hitting less down the line shots on FH.

But back to the Monogut ZX, I have a set, what instructions should I give the stringer to get the equivalent of 58 lbs of VS Touch, doesn't it have to be really pre-stretched? What cross works best with it for medium spin? I have the Monogut 17 as well.

Another issue is durability, I don't have a machine and my stringer is 45 mins away so I like would like to get a month out of a bed, rotating with two/three other matched sticks.

I like using the Babolat string savers, but it's so expensive for what it is, criminal they don't have refills. It's such a racket ;-)

I've got a PS97CV demo coming. I think with the lower RA I might have that little extra bit of flex to work my serve and FH a bit more, but remain really solid on OHBH, returns, etc. But I just won't have that awesome PS feedback, there is something almost sexual when you pure a backhand with the RF. With a semi-western FH, it's something you don't experience as often.

So executive summary.
1: What Syngut works well as a main, and what cross for decent durability and medium spin?
2: What prestretch and tension gets me the equivalent of 58 lbs VS Touch on mains, and what's a good cross with it?

Thanks, you guys really are helpful and your insight is most appreciated.

USPTARF97 · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I'm very curious about this string. I was playing VS Touch in the mains of the RF and it was a delight. But I live on the east coast and it's going to get hot and humid. Not sure how well it responds to such weather. Syngut in the mains worked, but popped a couple stings on serve, but was playing 17g TNT with TB 17 cross.

I like that syngut is light as well, I had one RF down to 338g with a lighter grip. But then added 4g at 7". I never did figure out how to do the MgR/I calculation/test, but I could feel weight there and it made it really solid on groundies. With the lighter set up serving was better. One thing the RF forces you to do is reevaluate your strokes, esp service motion. To really open up the shoulders and get the let the weight do the work. With a flexier stick with poly serving is so easy that you can get lazy with your motion. It also encourages you to get to the ball earlier with groundies.

With the RF I hit medium spin, my OHBH is fairly flat and the forehand can be worked on rollers, but noticed when I played doubles at my clinic with lower players I struggled hitting consistent forehands. With light balls coming, it's harder to get the ball up and down compared to the Vcore 330, I also can't hit inside out at well, with the 330 I can actually get a bit of sidespin. With the RF, I just resigned to hitting bigger targets, and hitting less down the line shots on FH.

But back to the Monogut ZX, I have a set, what instructions should I give the stringer to get the equivalent of 58 lbs of VS Touch, doesn't it have to be really pre-stretched? What cross works best with it for medium spin? I have the Monogut 17 as well.

Another issue is durability, I don't have a machine and my stringer is 45 mins away so I like would like to get a month out of a bed, rotating with two/three other matched sticks.

I like using the Babolat string savers, but it's so expensive for what it is, criminal they don't have refills. It's such a racket ;-)

I've got a PS97CV demo coming. I think with the lower RA I might have that little extra bit of flex to work my serve and FH a bit more, but remain really solid on OHBH, returns, etc. But I just won't have that awesome PS feedback, there is something almost sexual when you pure a backhand with the RF. With a semi-western FH, it's something you don't experience as often.

So executive summary.
1: What Syngut works well as a main, and what cross for decent durability and medium spin?
2: What prestretch and tension gets me the equivalent of 58 lbs VS Touch on mains, and what's a good cross with it?

Thanks, you guys really are helpful and your insight is most appreciated.

Synthetic gut mains with poly cross will break faster than any set up you can put in the RF97. Not sure that would be the best if your stringer is 45 min away and you aren’t stringing yourself. You are talking lots of money. Lasts about 3hrs. You can get 10+ out of poly/syn gut. Have never broken poly/syn in the RF97. Cut it out after 10-12 hours. Wouldn’t dismiss the fact that the RF97 with over tensioned full poly or poly mains will shred your arm. Have seen it numerous times.

anfield · Apr 15, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
We all gave answers relevant to your question.

"I've hit the most amazing OHBH, pick ups, and crazy defensive winners."

That was not relevant to your question.

Often, others can pick up information from a general discussion around the original question.

I was not trying to be snarky, I just feel giving more information helps get a better picture. The issues is binary, but having holistic analysis helps get the gist of the situation.

I too have disdain for poly and want to preserve my arm. I see you have done a lot of research on this and would love more insight.

I just want to understand what the poly is doing to cause such harm. I'm a visual person, can you give an analogy, or just a breakdown of what's actually happening. The much stiffer material is sending shockwaves to the elbow? Why is it so much more damaging?

Are there other factors as well, does playing with a leather grip contribute, hitting outside of sweetspot, too many buggywhip FHs?

Can you give a give a graph with the percentages of the biggest contributors. Is it something like this:

40% dead poly
30% poly
15% outside sweet spot
10% buggy whips type shots
02% stiff frame
02% light frame
01% leather grip

Thanks!

Shroud · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I'm very curious about this string. I was playing VS Touch in the mains of the RF and it was a delight. But I live on the east coast and it's going to get hot and humid. Not sure how well it responds to such weather. Syngut in the mains worked, but popped a couple stings on serve, but was playing 17g TNT with TB 17 cross.

I like that syngut is light as well, I had one RF down to 338g with a lighter grip. But then added 4g at 7". I never did figure out how to do the MgR/I calculation/test, but I could feel weight there and it made it really solid on groundies. With the lighter set up serving was better. One thing the RF forces you to do is reevaluate your strokes, esp service motion. To really open up the shoulders and get the let the weight do the work. With a flexier stick with poly serving is so easy that you can get lazy with your motion. It also encourages you to get to the ball earlier with groundies.

With the RF I hit medium spin, my OHBH is fairly flat and the forehand can be worked on rollers, but noticed when I played doubles at my clinic with lower players I struggled hitting consistent forehands. With light balls coming, it's harder to get the ball up and down compared to the Vcore 330, I also can't hit inside out at well, with the 330 I can actually get a bit of sidespin. With the RF, I just resigned to hitting bigger targets, and hitting less down the line shots on FH.

But back to the Monogut ZX, I have a set, what instructions should I give the stringer to get the equivalent of 58 lbs of VS Touch, doesn't it have to be really pre-stretched? What cross works best with it for medium spin? I have the Monogut 17 as well.

Another issue is durability, I don't have a machine and my stringer is 45 mins away so I like would like to get a month out of a bed, rotating with two/three other matched sticks.

I like using the Babolat string savers, but it's so expensive for what it is, criminal they don't have refills. It's such a racket ;-)

I've got a PS97CV demo coming. I think with the lower RA I might have that little extra bit of flex to work my serve and FH a bit more, but remain really solid on OHBH, returns, etc. But I just won't have that awesome PS feedback, there is something almost sexual when you pure a backhand with the RF. With a semi-western FH, it's something you don't experience as often.

So executive summary.
1: What Syngut works well as a main, and what cross for decent durability and medium spin?
2: What prestretch and tension gets me the equivalent of 58 lbs VS Touch on mains, and what's a good cross with it?

Thanks, you guys really are helpful and your insight is most appreciated.

Cool. Glad you have some zx! Thats great.

Ok no syngut makes a good main or cross IMHO unless you only hit flat. So please forget that idea

Now about the zx. For me its ideal use is a cross string. Without seeing your preffered setup, i am guessing a bit but you have some poly and so are ok with some stiffness. So you should use poly/zx imho. Zx is soft but will unlikely break as a cross which is crucial for you. It also will not lock and still soften the poly

That said you know gut/max power is a winning combo. So use the other half as mains for the max power if you can do two racquets.

For tension it should be ok at the same tensions you were using before if you prestretch. only prestretch zx IMHO. No need to string it if you dont

Now the issue is your stringer. They ALWAYS think they know everything and are some of the most rigid people on the planet it seems. Zx is a unique string and most stringers get cocky and will break it. Mostly while tying knots. And none of them understand how to prestretch it. They do it like you do for gut, to remove the coil memory, or use the machine setting. None of those will stretch it much. A 20’ strand of zx properly prestretched will elongate 2’ approx.

think about that. Its stretchy as all get out in the length dept so it will stretch and stretch. Do it before stringing so it doesnt lose 2’ while in the racquet! Thats major tension loss so you should prestretch it for them. Simply cut 20’ tie one end to a doorknob and the other end to something like a dowel rod or tennis racquet and pull SLOWLY. it will stretch like crazy. Do it till you get about 20” of permanent elongation. Also be careful while opening the string and removing the plastic zip tie. ANY nick will break that string. And do becareful so if something happens you dont fall back on anything sharp or brain yourself.

Here is a vid to have the stringer watch:

And personally I would tell him to string it without using a starting clamp or starting knot for the crosses. And make sure he isnt rushed. Be flexible and give him longer than normal and maybe pay a bit extra for the special handling. And make sure you impress on them how this is a very different string and needs special care. This isnt some 15min syngut turnaround job

Now if it survives the stringer it will last for months usually. Have had it outlast kevlar mains. It is super rigid if you try to bend it and thats why it holds up so well in the durability dept

Agree about weight and serving and letting the racquet do the work! In my case the Rf97a was much lighter and so there wasnt the weight i was used to.

Equating a tennis racquet to a sexual experience is something I can get behind...

ByeByePoly · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I was not trying to be snarky, I just feel giving more information helps get a better picture. The issues is binary, but having holistic analysis helps get the gist of the situation.

I too have disdain for poly and want to preserve my arm. I see you have done a lot of research on this and would love more insight.

I just want to understand what the poly is doing to cause such harm. I'm a visual person, can you give an analogy, or just a breakdown of what's actually happening. The much stiffer material is sending shockwaves to the elbow? Why is it so much more damaging?

Are there other factors as well, does playing with a leather grip contribute, hitting outside of sweetspot, too many buggywhip FHs?

Can you give a give a graph with the percentages of the biggest contributors. Is it something like this:

40% dead poly
30% poly
15% outside sweet spot
10% buggy whips type shots
02% stiff frame
02% light frame
01% leather grip

Thanks!

You have to understand even the medical community doesn't fully understand TE. Throw in our different arm thresholds, different forms of TE, and total speculation about how fast poly/plastic loses elasticity and we are all doing educated guessing (at best). There are no exact answers... so no, no graph.

Educated guesses:
- rest te at first, don't turn it into something worse or chronic
- if not married to poly, drop it
- roller massage forearm and tricep, cheap, can't hurt, might help
- search tt health forum for flexbar if your te isn't temporary

Good luck, te sucks.

Shroud · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I was not trying to be snarky, I just feel giving more information helps get a better picture. The issues is binary, but having holistic analysis helps get the gist of the situation.

I too have disdain for poly and want to preserve my arm. I see you have done a lot of research on this and would love more insight.

I just want to understand what the poly is doing to cause such harm. I'm a visual person, can you give an analogy, or just a breakdown of what's actually happening. The much stiffer material is sending shockwaves to the elbow? Why is it so much more damaging?

Are there other factors as well, does playing with a leather grip contribute, hitting outside of sweetspot, too many buggywhip FHs?

Can you give a give a graph with the percentages of the biggest contributors. Is it something like this:

40% dead poly
30% poly
15% outside sweet spot
10% buggy whips type shots
02% stiff frame
02% light frame
01% leather grip

Thanks!

Without seeing you play, my two cents is that poly is typically less powered. Teamed with syngut crosses the launch angle is less. So the same swing produces a ball with a lower trajectory that lands shorter. You naturally adapt your stroke because you are a good tennis player. But in doing so you can stress other muscles and they get tight. Which pulls on the tendons

Not saying there isnt a shock component just that its the tightening of the muscles that pulls on the tendon. At least in my case it was. But you cant feel them unless you massage your arm. Then you can feel the tightness and how it stresses the elbow. Thats why stretching and the flexbar (which incorporates stretching) are recomended and massage too.

Poly when it notches is even more locked than syngut and imho that has alot to do with its bad rap.

ByeByePoly · Apr 15, 2018

Shroud said:
Without seeing you play, my two cents is that poly is typically less powered. Teamed with syngut crosses the launch angle is less. So the same swing produces a ball with a lower trajectory that lands shorter. You naturally adapt your stroke because you are a good tennis player. But in doing so you can stress other muscles and they get tight. Which pulls on the tendons

Not saying there isnt a shock component just that its the tightening of the muscles that pulls on the tendon. At least in my case it was. But you cant feel them unless you massage your arm. Then you can feel the tightness and how it stresses the elbow. Thats why stretching and the flexbar (which incorporates stretching) are recomended and massage too.

Poly when it notches is even more locked than syngut and imho that has alot to do with its bad rap.

We need a ttw volunteer to take 1000s of death grip shadow swings in the name of TE science.

anfield · Apr 15, 2018

USPTARF97 said:
Have never broken poly/syn in the RF97. Cut it out after 10-12 hours.

@USPTARF97 This seems like a lot of stringing, I don't have a machine and I really don't have the time or space. I'd rather pay my stringer's cable bill, but it's 45 mins away and takes a while to get frames back. Having four of the same helps though.

I should prolly stay with NG, but with the warm humid weather coming, doesn't' it affect the strings a lot?

What I love about gut is I know where I'm going to put my touch shots, the ball comes off easy and consistent. With poly I feel like I have to give it that extra flick and not sure where it's going. Poly only seems to react with more racquet head speed, such a non-linear response, even at lower tensions.

I'm thinking I could make this easier and just try a full bed of TF HDX Tour or Origin. If they provide good tension maintenance in different weather, decent spin, touch and comfort this might be the simplest solution. I'll buy more frames and restring more often if these wear too quick -- that seems to be their only downside from what I've read. Oh and string movement, which is annoying, but tolerable.

I feel like I could just use the HDX Tour or Origin and forget about my strings for a while. Does anyone have any luck with this set up? I'm not a stringer and I would rather spend this time on the court.

Thanks again string gurus

KaiserW · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
@USPTARF97 This seems like a lot of stringing, I don't have a machine and I really don't have the time or space. I'd rather pay my stringer's cable bill, but it's 45 mins away and takes a while to get frames back. Having four of the same helps though.

I should prolly stay with NG, but with the warm humid weather coming, doesn't' it affect the strings a lot?

What I love about gut is I know where I'm going to put my touch shots, the ball comes off easy and consistent. With poly I feel like I have to give it that extra flick and not sure where it's going. Poly only seems to react with more racquet head speed, such a non-linear response, even at lower tensions.

I'm thinking I could make this easier and just try a full bed of TF HDX Tour or Origin. If they provide good tension maintenance in different weather, decent spin, touch and comfort this might be the simplest solution. I'll buy more frames and restring more often if these wear too quick -- that seems to be their only downside from what I've read. Oh and string movement, which is annoying, but tolerable.

I feel like I could just use the HDX Tour or Origin and forget about my strings for a while. Does anyone have any luck with this set up? I'm not a stringer and I would rather spend this time on the court.

Thanks again string gurus

I think the humidity issue is overblown for natural gut. I live in the NE which can get quite humid in July and August and I don't notice a difference in durability over other months. I would say try it as it becomes humid and see what the results are. If you stick with the RF there is no better setup than gut/poly imo.

USPTARF97 · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
@USPTARF97 This seems like a lot of stringing, I don't have a machine and I really don't have the time or space. I'd rather pay my stringer's cable bill, but it's 45 mins away and takes a while to get frames back. Having four of the same helps though.

I should prolly stay with NG, but with the warm humid weather coming, doesn't' it affect the strings a lot?

What I love about gut is I know where I'm going to put my touch shots, the ball comes off easy and consistent. With poly I feel like I have to give it that extra flick and not sure where it's going. Poly only seems to react with more racquet head speed, such a non-linear response, even at lower tensions.

I'm thinking I could make this easier and just try a full bed of TF HDX Tour or Origin. If they provide good tension maintenance in different weather, decent spin, touch and comfort this might be the simplest solution. I'll buy more frames and restring more often if these wear too quick -- that seems to be their only downside from what I've read. Oh and string movement, which is annoying, but tolerable.

I feel like I could just use the HDX Tour or Origin and forget about my strings for a while. Does anyone have any luck with this set up? I'm not a stringer and I would rather spend this time on the court.

Thanks again string gurus

The poly/syn gut stays in my RF97’s longer than any other string. The gut/poly just plays so much better. I haven’t seen a tremendous amount of longevity with gut/poly. Doing a test now to see how many hours I can get out of VS Tonic 1.30/Wilson Revolve 1.25. Play in a tremendous amount of humidity here in the southern states so wouldn’t know how to gauge how much more it effects the gut. We always play in it. 80-90% humidity is fairly common.
HDX and Origin are both great strings. Don’t know how long it would take the RF97 to eat them. Heard of people having great success with NXT stringing the frame around mid tension. Have played mainly with poly and hybrid.

Muppet · Apr 15, 2018

Poly can do more damage to your arm because it doesn't stretch much in the collision with the ball. The inelastic property of poly is by design. It reaches its elastic limit abruptly and grabs the ball, creating more spin. Its durability and low power also allow the player to use a faster stroke to create more spin. Using a slower or more driving stroke is not what poly is designed for and it can hurt you. If that's your game and you still want to use poly, hybriding helps.

ByeByePoly · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
@USPTARF97 This seems like a lot of stringing, I don't have a machine and I really don't have the time or space. I'd rather pay my stringer's cable bill, but it's 45 mins away and takes a while to get frames back. Having four of the same helps though.

I should prolly stay with NG, but with the warm humid weather coming, doesn't' it affect the strings a lot?

What I love about gut is I know where I'm going to put my touch shots, the ball comes off easy and consistent. With poly I feel like I have to give it that extra flick and not sure where it's going. Poly only seems to react with more racquet head speed, such a non-linear response, even at lower tensions.

I'm thinking I could make this easier and just try a full bed of TF HDX Tour or Origin. If they provide good tension maintenance in different weather, decent spin, touch and comfort this might be the simplest solution. I'll buy more frames and restring more often if these wear too quick -- that seems to be their only downside from what I've read. Oh and string movement, which is annoying, but tolerable.

I feel like I could just use the HDX Tour or Origin and forget about my strings for a while. Does anyone have any luck with this set up? I'm not a stringer and I would rather spend this time on the court.

Thanks again string gurus

hdx,origin,velocity all good non-poly choices ... good threads on all of them.

- fb hdx, and fb v good spin, fb origin not really
- all arm friendly ... v the most, hdx the least (has some poly in it)
- origin most power ... mid-tension was still too powerful for me, but origin/v 55/52 tamed it, and was good spin
- all good on durability (for multi)

anfield · Apr 15, 2018

USPTARF97 said:
Don’t know how long it would take the RF97 to eat them. Hear people having great success with NXT

Ha, I first tried the RF with full poly and did not like it at all, then demoed with NXT and fell in love. But it was kind of loose so bought frames with gut/poly. Is there something specific about this frame, other than 16x19, that makes it a string eater? In the reviews they mention something about shared holes.

I thought they were the same, just that the RF just has foam and silicon? They all say something about the hotspot in the lower hoop in PS97, but it's not in the RF, is that because of the foam/mass in RF, or is the layup actually different?

I tried a PS97 with 4G, not a comfy experience. I have a CV demo coming with 4G, should be interesting. The CV is at 65RA vs the 68 of the RF, maybe that's all the flex I need to get that little extra whip on serve and FH.

pvw_tf · Apr 15, 2018

Moveforwardalways said:
It is 100% the strings. Stiff racquets are not new. They’ve been around forever. Poly strings are new. You do the math.

Sorry poly strings are around for long. Two of the first on the market were Polystar and Snauweart Dynocraft. Available in 1.2 and 1.3. That was some years before 1990.

Peter

pvw_tf · Apr 15, 2018

KaiserW said:
The RF is really stiff.

The RF is not that stiff, by far not flexible, not extreme stiff, there are rackets on the market which are stiffer, fairly a lot.

There are many factors determining what it does on your arm, shoulder. Strings are a very important factor. But tension is important. Where is the sweet spot of the racket, are you hitting the ball into it. Does the racket match your playing style. Can you handle the weight. To low or to high, Balance.

And as always what is your tennis technique, how well are you trained.

But in general injuries happen way less with gut or multifibre.

Peter

Rabbit · Apr 15, 2018

To the OP, you're going to get a lot of different responses here. There isn't a right/wrong/absolute answer. It's very subjective. For me, all poly is not good for the long term health of my arm. I can play about any hybrid I want to, poly mains & synthetic crosses or the other way around. With regard to rackets, Warren Bosworth had a talk (it was on the internet) in which he said that in the days of wood rackets, arm problem were 100% technique. With the advent of specialized (player improvement, tweener, players [and everything in between]) graphite frames, that is no longer the case. A stiff, light racket usually spells pain for someone with long, fast strokes who generates their own power. I was a long time C10 user and now use the VS10T with no problems. The VS10T has a higher RA than the C10. I am pretty selective in what string and tension I use though as I have had problems in the past. Those problems emanated from a Wilson Hammer 5.0 and Prince Pro Blend at 65. I wince even now as I type this.

As a direct answer to you it can be the racket for me. I was excited about the original Q10 coming out from Volkl several years ago. I demoed one strung with a multi. I hit with it for about 15 minutes. My arm was sore as all hell the next day and for a few days after that. IMO, the Q10 was tinny, stiff and hollow feeling. So yeah, it can be the racket alone!

Karma Tennis · Apr 15, 2018

anfield said:
I had my first encounter with TE a couple of weeks ago and all I did was change strings. I was using the RF for the last six months with no arm pain whatsoever, well, some tiredness. But just after two hard sessions with Tour bite mains @ 54, syn gut cross @58 I had actual pain in my elbow.

I know there are a million factors, softer polys, stick RA, balance, but considering I played the same frame for six months with no pain, then poly for two days in a matched frame and then had pain in my elbow. What actually shot up to my elbow to cause that pain?

String experts please feel free to chime in and thanks in advance. I am shopping around for new frames, but I'd like to know more about this string situation.

Your first encounter with TE did not happen overnight and was probably not a result of changing strings.. TE (ie lateral epicondylitis) is not something that happens overnight or over a very short period of time. Forearm muscles and tendons become damaged from repetitive overuse over a long period of time (ie months to years.). Your recent equipment changes might have accelerated the process to your current situation but you were most likely going to end up there anyway if you continued to play tennis at the same frequency.

You say you were using an RF for 6 months with no arm pain BUT SOME TIREDNESS. The "tiredness" is a warning sign.

I strongly suggest you seek out advice from a qualified Medical Prac. or Sports Physician. In the meantime, no more hitting. Rest your arm.

When you do get back on the court, stay away from full beds of Poly for a while.

Karma Tennis · Apr 15, 2018

KaiserW said:
But you said it was just after two sessions you had elbow pain, poly does not go dead that fast.

Many types of Poly string can "bag out" after a couple of hours of solid hitting depending on the player, racquet, string tension, and playing conditions.

The main problem with Poly String, especially Black coloured Poly, is that it can still LOOK good after many many hours of hitting even though it should have been binned after a few hours.

I strongly recommend that Poly be replaced after a max of 10 hours of use, and preferably after a max of 8 hours.

I used to restring Pros Pro Black Out after very 4 hours. Currently do RPM, Cyclone, Hyper-G, Tour Bite, after every 5 to 6 hours. Luxilon gets tossed after every 6 hours.

Poly is meant to be used "fresh". That is where its performance is.

Shroud · Apr 15, 2018

ByeByePoly said:
We need a ttw volunteer to take 1000s of death grip shadow swings in the name of TE science.

Pretty much no one here is that nice

Karma Tennis said:
Your first encounter with TE did not happen overnight and was probably not a result of changing strings.. TE (ie lateral epicondylitis) is not something that happens overnight or over a very short period of time. Forearm muscles and tendons become damaged from repetitive overuse over a long period of time (ie months to years.). Your recent equipment changes might have accelerated the process to your current situation but you were most likely going to end up there anyway if you continued to play tennis at the same frequency.

You say you were using an RF for 6 months with no arm pain BUT SOME TIREDNESS. The "tiredness" is a warning sign.

I strongly suggest you seek out advice from a qualified Medical Prac. or Sports Physician. In the meantime, no more hitting. Rest your arm.

When you do get back on the court, stay away from full beds of Poly for a while.

i have a perfect recipe for te that doesnt take months or years, so i disagree with the “it doesnt happen over night” part

Play 4 times in one week for at least 2 hours each time. When not playing do a spray painting project with no machines. Mess it up and take the whole week to finish it. Arm destroyed.

Moveforwardalways · Apr 15, 2018

pvw_tf said:
Sorry poly strings are around for long. Two of the first on the market were Polystar and Snauweart Dynocraft. Available in 1.2 and 1.3. That was some years before 1990.

Peter

That may indeed be true, but you know what I mean. The post Luxilon era brought poly to the masses.

Arm friendliness, it's really the string, not the racquet, right?

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