Moya joins Rafa's coaching team

marc45 · Dec 21, 2016

metsman said:
Well Moya was an aggressive, very forehand dominant player. Fairly big first serve and came to net more often than the traditional clay court grinder. All things which Nadal could use so I think this pairing could have potential.

Personally, I think there is no reason Nadal could not win another RG if he makes some minor adjustments.

I just don't want Moya to over-emphasize running around the bh to hit a fh, he took that to the extreme as his career went on...Nadal's speed is just not good enough now to give up that kind of ground consistently...and Nadal's bh is better than Moya's to begin with

agree on the serve and ability to get to net and finish, win points more efficiently, thinking

ADuck · Oct 13, 2019

VladimirJ said:
Moya is a good coach, but even he won't help Nadal, because Rafa is one-dimensional moonballer.

MichaelNadal · Oct 13, 2019

Crie said:
I'm a Rafa fan, but I don't think he can win another title that's not French Open. His style is way too taxing on him and it seems that a lot of his passion has gone. Before he used to be so energetic, regardless of what round he was playing, but now he's out of it you know?

Sabrina · Oct 13, 2019

At the end of 2016, I was just hoping for another RG tittle and nothing more. This guy keeps surpring us again and again.

Bender · Oct 13, 2019

Bender said:
As I recall, Moya always lamented how Rafa wasted his natural aggression in training sessions, and never brought it out in matches.

If Nadal's taking this additional advice seriously, hopefully we'll see Rafa going for his shots more rather than going retriever mode the moment things stop working for him.

I'm so glad Rafa went on to do exactly this

All praise Carlos GOATya

clout · Oct 13, 2019

Moya helped his net game a lot too. I don’t think he beats Med in the fifth set without coming to the net as much as he did

Chadalina · Oct 13, 2019

Moya has done a great job and really like him. I think his coaching is more mentor than mechanics. Nadal got junior fame when he took a set off carlos @14, i assume they have always been great friends. He was decent at tennis too

Mainad · Oct 13, 2019

Chadalina said:
Moya has done a great job and really like him. I think his coaching is more mentor than mechanics. Nadal got junior fame when he took a set off carlos @14, i assume they have always been great friends. He was decent at tennis too

Not bad for a part-timer, I guess.

DSH · Oct 13, 2019

Steve0904 said:
Double CGS coming right up!

Almost!
Although he still has time to do it.

DSH · Oct 13, 2019

5 Majors titles (and counting) being a tennis player over 30 years old.
An Open Era record!

ronnie · Oct 13, 2019

citybert said:
Lotta staff and coaches to pay. After a QF exit Nadal is basically playing for nothing.

Yeah yeah he has tons of endorsements and appearance fees etc. More worried about dissention within his own team if anything.

I don't think he's struggling financially though somehow..

Tostao80 · Oct 14, 2019

DSH said:
5 Majors titles (and counting) being a tennis player over 30 years old.
An Open Era record!

If youd told people way back in 2007, that 12 years later Rafa Nadal would have more slams in his 30s than anyone in history, how many people would have believed you? Incredible. I think Novak will eventually get the record though.

RF-18 · Oct 14, 2019

Nadal has improved so much under Moya. Long gone are the dinosaur tactics of 00 era. An excellent decision.

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

RF-18 said:
Nadal has improved so much under Moya. Long gone are the dinosaur tactics of 00 era. An excellent decision.

I don't entirely agree with that. Nadal was already playing aggressive tennis BEFORE Moya joined.
In fact, the BEST serve and aggression from Nadal has been when Toni was there, and Moya had NOT come in.

I don't think much has changed with Moya. The aggression is up to Nadal. When he feels more confident, he plays aggressive. If he's not - he retreats into a pusher mode of defensive tennis.
This is what had happened in the early part of clay season, in the Wimb SF against Fed etc etc.

It's NOT the coach that makes the game. It's the player. Do you really believe that Djokovic or Fed improved because of their coaches? Do you think Fed's NEO backhand (post 2017) had anything to do with his coach?
It's all up to the player. Everyone tells Nadal to be aggressive: Toni, Moya, Roig -- all say the same. The problem is that it is Nadal who has to execute.

topher · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I don't entirely agree with that. Nadal was already playing aggressive tennis BEFORE Moya joined.
In fact, the BEST serve and aggression from Nadal has been when Toni was there, and Moya had NOT come in.

I don't think much has changed with Moya. The aggression is up to Nadal. When he feels more confident, he plays aggressive. If he's not - he retreats into a pusher mode of defensive tennis.
This is what had happened in the early part of clay season, in the Wimb SF against Fed etc etc.

It's NOT the coach that makes the game. It's the player. Do you really believe that Djokovic or Fed improved because of their coaches? Do you think Fed's NEO backhand (post 2017) had anything to do with his coach?
It's all up to the player. Everyone tells Nadal to be aggressive: Toni, Moya, Roig -- all say the same. The problem is that it is Nadal who has to execute.

I do agree that Rafa was at times more aggressive in his rally shots than he is now, especially pre-injury in 2009. However, Moya does seem to have helped in encouraging him to go for more on his serve. You can argue how important or effective that has been, but a stronger serve will set you up to end points sooner and allow you more leeway to go for winners when you have the serve to back you up.

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

topher said:
I do agree that Rafa was at times more aggressive in his rally shots than he is now, especially pre-injury in 2009. However, Moya does seem to have helped in encouraging him to go for more on his serve. You can argue how important or effective that has been, but a stronger serve will set you up to end points sooner and allow you more leeway to go for winners when you have the serve to back you up.

Nadal's serve right now is MASSIVELY overrated. Take some numbers and compare.
Nadal's best serving was Fall 2010. In the UsOpen and some tournaments later in the year - he was serving BIG and at times at 135 mph. He saved 3 bps on his serve in UsOpen 2010 final just hitting unreturnable serves to the GOAT returner : Djokovic.
Second best serving was in 2013 - when Nadal again won the UsOpen.

Right now his serve is a bit of a mess. This UsOpen he was serving under 55% 1st serve most matches. That is why he got BROKEN twice by Diego in each set. So 4 times total. Medvedev also broke him at will. And Nadal almost surrendered the 5th set 2 break lead in the final. Nadal is trying to up the pace and can't get the accuracy. His 2nd serve has improved under Moya - but that's about it. The first serve used to be better before.

topher · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Nadal's serve right now is MASSIVELY overrated. Take some numbers and compare.
Nadal's best serving was Fall 2010. In the UsOpen and some tournaments later in the year - he was serving BIG and at times at 135 mph. He saved 3 bps on his serve in UsOpen 2010 final just hitting unreturnable serves to the GOAT returner : Djokovic.
Second best serving was in 2013 - when Nadal again won the UsOpen.

Right now his serve is a bit of a mess. This UsOpen he was serving under 55% 1st serve most matches. That is why he got BROKEN twice by Diego in each set. So 4 times total. Medvedev also broke him at will. And Nadal almost surrendered the 5th set 2 break lead in the final. Nadal is trying to up the pace and can't get the accuracy. His 2nd serve has improved under Moya - but that's about it. The first serve used to be better before.

I didn't say he was serving better - however, he is serving bigger. You're right he's sacrificed accuracy for power, but that is a choice that will allow him to shorten points when he gets the 1st serve in. And should he ever master it and up his efficiency, it could pay off in the long run. His serving in the USO later rounds was especially poor efficiency-wise, I completely agree, but I don't think its fair to judge Moya's results on that front by some matches from one tournament.

This is my own reading between the lines: The fall 2010 serving seems to have been power generated from an unsustainable rotation of the shoulders that ended up causing Rafa pain and he has apparently abandoned it since then. Thus I see the fall 2010 serving as an aberration. The 2013 serving was fine, but note again that in the final when Novak started zoning he was able to return Rafa's serves at his feet at will. And Rafa didn't have an ace until the 3rd set (a very timely one). I don't see his serving in that 2013 stretch to have been very impressive, it was his improved return on hardcourts and his return position that yielded those great results imo.

Funnily enough, a similar thing happened in the 5th set against Medvedev. Rafa stepped into Med's 1st serve return and started dominating it even with Med hitting 124 mph first serves.

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

topher said:
I didn't say he was serving better - however, he is serving bigger. You're right he's sacrificed accuracy for power, but that is a choice that will allow him to shorten points when he gets the 1st serve in. And should he ever master it and up his efficiency, it could pay off in the long run. His serving in the USO later rounds was especially poor efficiency-wise, I completely agree, but I don't think its fair to judge Moya's results on that front by some matches from one tournament.

This is my own reading between the lines: The fall 2010 serving seems to have been power generated from an unsustainable rotation of the shoulders that ended up causing Rafa pain and he has apparently abandoned it since then. Thus I see the fall 2010 serving as an aberration. The 2013 serving was fine, but note again that in the final when Novak started zoning he was able to return Rafa's serves at his feet at will. And Rafa didn't have an ace until the 3rd set (a very timely one). I don't see his serving in that 2013 stretch to have been very impressive, it was his improved return on hardcourts and his return position that yielded those great results imo.

Funnily enough, a similar thing happened in the 5th set against Medvedev. Rafa stepped into Med's 1st serve return and started dominating it even with Med hitting 124 mph first serves.

I agree with you in principle. I don't even know how much Moya is responsible for the redesign of Nadal's serve. I think his second serve is definitely better. And for the 1st - they have tweaked the motion for the ball to go a little flatter. The problem with that is that Rafa has lost some accuracy. Also he has lost the spin and the angle on the trademark left wide serve in the ad court. In balance- it seems to be better since it goes quicker off the ground and he can get some free points. But the problem is that Nadal's accuracy has suffered. That is why he is losing more return games. I mean he cannot serve BIG under pressure. Take for example the 2019 UsOpen final. At 5-4 in the fifth set, he barely made any first serve, until the very last one (which won him the match). He served poorly at the 5-2 game as well - which is why he was NOT able to close the match. Diego of all people broken him 4 times - and twice in each set.

I think serve and the ROS will always be Nadal's achilles heel. These guys are from Spain and they are NOT exactly known for producing serve bots. Second issues is TIME. By which I mean the preparation required for Nadal's shots - especially the forehand. Since his grips is so extreme and he uses a large followthrough - he needs more time to set up the forehand. That is why he is caught hacking while returning serve. He cannot return with one continental grip that a lot of pros do. So whenever Rafa guesses the serve direction wrong and has to switch from the backhand to the forehand - he will shank the ball. Same while serving. If you return close to Nadal - deep into his forehand - Nadal won't get time to set up his shot and probably shank it or hit it short.

That is why Nadal is uncomfortable against players who can return fast and deep. Since Rafa cannot move forward into the court and retreats back. Nadal's returning position (far back) and his serving are basically all remnants of a clay game - which basically gives you a lot of time to set up your shots. Nadal does NOT take time away from an opponent - like Fed, and even Djokovic do. Nadal will never be a natural server and returned like Fedovic.
All that said, Rafa has won 19 slams with his style - which just shows how unbelievably good his ground-game is - that it can even cover a weak ROS and a not so strong serve.

topher · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I agree with you in principle. I don't even know how much Moya is responsible for the redesign of Nadal's serve. I think his second serve is definitely better. And for the 1st - they have tweaked the motion for the ball to go a little flatter. The problem with that is that Rafa has lost some accuracy. Also he has lost the spin and the angle on the trademark left wide serve in the ad court. In balance- it seems to be better since it goes quicker off the ground and he can get some free points. But the problem is that Nadal's accuracy has suffered. That is why he is losing more return games. I mean he cannot serve BIG under pressure. Take for example the 2019 UsOpen final. At 5-4 in the fifth set, he barely made any first serve, until the very last one (which won him the match). He served poorly at the 5-2 game as well - which is why he was NOT able to close the match. Diego of all people broken him 4 times - and twice in each set.

I think serve and the ROS will always be Nadal's achilles heel. These guys are from Spain and they are NOT exactly known for producing serve bots. Second issues is TIME. By which I mean the preparation required for Nadal's shots - especially the forehand. Since his grips is so extreme and he uses a large followthrough - he needs more time to set up the forehand. That is why he is caught hacking while returning serve. He cannot return with one continental grip that a lot of pros do. So whenever Rafa guesses the serve direction wrong and has to switch from the backhand to the forehand - he will shank the ball. Same while serving. If you return close to Nadal - deep into his forehand - Nadal won't get time to set up his shot and probably shank it or hit it short.

That is why Nadal is uncomfortable against players who can return fast and deep. Since Rafa cannot move forward into the court and retreats back. Nadal's returning position (far back) and his serving are basically all remnants of a clay game - which basically gives you a lot of time to set up your shots. Nadal does NOT take time away from an opponent - like Fed, and even Djokovic do. Nadal will never be a natural server and returned like Fedovic.
All that said, Rafa has won 19 slams with his style - which just shows how unbelievably good his ground-game is - that it can even cover a weak ROS and a not so strong serve.

I agree with you overall on that first paragraph and that the new 1st serve has shown some bad signs under pressure. Certainly as a Nadal fan, there are some concerns that missing those 1st serves will cost him big time at some point.

I also agree that Rafa's grip and FH motion make his return game more difficult overall. But I think when he's confident, or perhaps just desperate enough, he's shown remarkable reflexes in making great returns from inside the service line and returning deep returns with gusto. Just look at the 2019 fifth set again, where he won more 1st serve return points on Med's 1st serve than Med for a pivotal stretch, or perhaps that pivotal game in the 2013 final - Rafa expertly redirected a stunner return from Novak on the 1st break pt that Novak had to applaud for. I think overall when his confidence or adrenaline is high, his talent/skills/reflexes can overcome the limitations of his "clay game remnants".

octobrina10 · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Nadal's serve right now is MASSIVELY overrated. Take some numbers and compare.
Nadal's best serving was Fall 2010. In the UsOpen and some tournaments later in the year - he was serving BIG and at times at 135 mph. He saved 3 bps on his serve in UsOpen 2010 final just hitting unreturnable serves to the GOAT returner : Djokovic.
Second best serving was in 2013 - when Nadal again won the UsOpen.

Right now his serve is a bit of a mess. This UsOpen he was serving under 55% 1st serve most matches. That is why he got BROKEN twice by Diego in each set. So 4 times total. Medvedev also broke him at will. And Nadal almost surrendered the 5th set 2 break lead in the final. Nadal is trying to up the pace and can't get the accuracy. His 2nd serve has improved under Moya - but that's about it. The first serve used to be better before.

Rafa's percentage of points won on serve has increased compared to last year.

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

topher said:
I agree with you overall on that first paragraph and that the new 1st serve has shown some bad signs under pressure. Certainly as a Nadal fan, there are some concerns that missing those 1st serves will cost him big time at some point.

I also agree that Rafa's grip and FH motion make his return game more difficult overall. But I think when he's confident, or perhaps just desperate enough, he's shown remarkable reflexes in making great returns from inside the service line and returning deep returns with gusto. Just look at the 2019 fifth set again, where he won something like 8 out of 10 on Med's 1st serve for a pivotal stretch, or perhaps that pivotal game in the 2013 final - Rafa expertly redirected a stunner return from Novak on the 1st break pt that Novak had to applaud for. I think overall when his confidence or adrenaline is high, his talent/skills/reflexes can overcome the limitations of his "clay game remnants".

I agree with you 100%. Nadal is an ATG, one of the greatest talents the game has ever seen. His overhead, overhead volleys, backhand volley in particular, touch and drop shots - etc are some of the best in the game. Which shows that despite being a clay player, Nadal can be the best in the business. His anticipation and his strategic mid match adjustments are also arguably the best ever in the game. And he would definitely produce amazing returning performance and serving performances when he is confident.

But my point overall was that because of how Nadal's game evolved with a clay mindset and the Spanish coaching teams - he was never coached to be offensive on ROS and on the serve. So in some ways, that will always hold Nadal back. And yes, he has improved leaps and bounds with time, but there is still some room.

To me it just once again goes to emphasize just how good Nadal is off the ground to be able to overcome his deficiencies (relatively speaking) in serve and ROS. He might not have the flashiest or the biggest shots, but for consistency, placement and accuracy - he is the best ever. If there were no serve in the game of tennis, it would almost impossible to beat Rafa. There is a reason Courier thinks that Nadal's forehand is the best ever in the game - even though Fed's forehand is technically superior. It always works and he can place it anywhere with tremendous variety in terms of pace, depth, spin, angles and trajectory.

octobrina10 · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I agree with you in principle. I don't even know how much Moya is responsible for the redesign of Nadal's serve. I think his second serve is definitely better. And for the 1st - they have tweaked the motion for the ball to go a little flatter. The problem with that is that Rafa has lost some accuracy. Also he has lost the spin and the angle on the trademark left wide serve in the ad court. In balance- it seems to be better since it goes quicker off the ground and he can get some free points. But the problem is that Nadal's accuracy has suffered. That is why he is losing more return games. I mean he cannot serve BIG under pressure. Take for example the 2019 UsOpen final. At 5-4 in the fifth set, he barely made any first serve, until the very last one (which won him the match). He served poorly at the 5-2 game as well - which is why he was NOT able to close the match. Diego of all people broken him 4 times - and twice in each set.

I think serve and the ROS will always be Nadal's achilles heel. These guys are from Spain and they are NOT exactly known for producing serve bots. Second issues is TIME. By which I mean the preparation required for Nadal's shots - especially the forehand. Since his grips is so extreme and he uses a large followthrough - he needs more time to set up the forehand. That is why he is caught hacking while returning serve. He cannot return with one continental grip that a lot of pros do. So whenever Rafa guesses the serve direction wrong and has to switch from the backhand to the forehand - he will shank the ball. Same while serving. If you return close to Nadal - deep into his forehand - Nadal won't get time to set up his shot and probably shank it or hit it short.

That is why Nadal is uncomfortable against players who can return fast and deep. Since Rafa cannot move forward into the court and retreats back. Nadal's returning position (far back) and his serving are basically all remnants of a clay game - which basically gives you a lot of time to set up your shots. Nadal does NOT take time away from an opponent - like Fed, and even Djokovic do. Nadal will never be a natural server and returned like Fedovic.
All that said, Rafa has won 19 slams with his style - which just shows how unbelievably good his ground-game is - that it can even cover a weak ROS and a not so strong serve.

C.Moya & F.Roig have worked together on improving Rafa's serve since Sept. 2018.

Rafa Nadal Ready To Unveil Revamped Serve At 2019 Australian Open | ATP Tour | Tennis

Coaches Carlos Moya and Francisco Roig discuss Rafael Nadal’s new service motion ahead of Australian Open

www.atptour.com

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

octobrina10 said:
C.Moya & F.Roig have worked together on improving Rafa's serve since Sept. 2018.

Who was the external guy who helped Nadal change to his UsOpen 2010 serve? I get that it didn't work for Rafa long term. But that serve was unbelievable. The best he's ever served, and his accuracy wasn't down either.
Why can't they hire the same guy again and ask him to tweak the serve a little bit more?

topher · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Who was the external guy who helped Nadal change to his UsOpen 2010 serve? I get that it didn't work for Rafa long term. But that serve was unbelievable. The best he's ever served, and his accuracy wasn't down either.
Why can't they hire the same guy again and ask him to tweak the serve a little bit more?

I don't think that serve is quite the magic potion you think it is - even ignoring the shoulder pain it caused him. Even when Rafa had that serve in 2010, Novak wasn't particularly bothered by it as it allowed him to get his return to him faster and take time away from Rafa. What it does do for Rafa is help him shorten points in earlier rounds and stay fresh for the important matches (Fedovic, slam SF/Fs), which the current serve is already doing.

Rafa could waste time (and potentially cause shoulder pain & injury) trying to bring back that serving motion. Or he could stick with mastering his current version (which is still quite good, as @octobrina10 pointed out) and focusing on his non-clay return position which makes a much bigger difference in the big matches imo.

octobrina10 · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Who was the external guy who helped Nadal change to his UsOpen 2010 serve? I get that it didn't work for Rafa long term. But that serve was unbelievable. The best he's ever served, and his accuracy wasn't down either.
Why can't they hire the same guy again and ask him to tweak the serve a little bit more?

There was no "external guy".
Jan.25, 2019: ¤¤ [At the 2010 USO], the concept of tweaking his motion and grip was conceived during a training session with Juan Monaco.¤¤

2010 or 2019: Which Rafa Serve Is More Potent? | ATP Tour | Tennis

Rafael Nadal, Carlos Moya and Francisco Roig provide insight comparing Nadal's 2019 serve to his 2010 serve.

www.atptour.com

RF-18 · Oct 14, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I don't entirely agree with that. Nadal was already playing aggressive tennis BEFORE Moya joined.
In fact, the BEST serve and aggression from Nadal has been when Toni was there, and Moya had NOT come in.

I don't think much has changed with Moya. The aggression is up to Nadal. When he feels more confident, he plays aggressive. If he's not - he retreats into a pusher mode of defensive tennis.
This is what had happened in the early part of clay season, in the Wimb SF against Fed etc etc.

It's NOT the coach that makes the game. It's the player. Do you really believe that Djokovic or Fed improved because of their coaches? Do you think Fed's NEO backhand (post 2017) had anything to do with his coach?
It's all up to the player. Everyone tells Nadal to be aggressive: Toni, Moya, Roig -- all say the same. The problem is that it is Nadal who has to execute.

It's not just about his playstyle. I'm referring to him as a player aswell and how complete he has become. That's obvious in my eyes.

TennisFan3 · Oct 14, 2019

topher said:
I don't think that serve is quite the magic potion you think it is - even ignoring the shoulder pain it caused him. Even when Rafa had that serve in 2010, Novak wasn't particularly bothered by it as it allowed him to get his return to him faster and take time away from Rafa. What it does do for Rafa is help him shorten points in earlier rounds and stay fresh for the important matches (Fedovic, slam SF/Fs), which the current serve is already doing.

Rafa could waste time (and potentially cause shoulder pain & injury) trying to bring back that serving motion. Or he could stick with mastering his current version (which is still quite good, as @octobrina10 pointed out) and focusing on his non-clay return position which makes a much bigger difference in the big matches imo.

Good post. I agree with you entirely. I wouldn't say Novak was NOT bothered by Nadal's 2010 serve. Novak is an ATG ROS - so he was still able to handle it. But recall in that match when Nadal saved breakpoints and had 3 consecutive unreturnable serves, that even Novak was visibly frustrated. The 2010 serve was a large factor in Nadal beating Djokovic in 2010 UsOpen. I think Rafa played better of the ground in 2013, but served better in 2010.

Here is what I'm saying overall: Nadal's serve in 2019 - while good - is not near his best serving (which was in 2010). If we dissect each element of Nadal's game - his serve is NOT a weakness. Of course it is NOT at Fed's serve level (or even Djokovic level), but it is still pretty decent and gets the job done. You're absolutely right that Nadal's court positioning and aggressive intent are MUCH BIGGER game changers than any (perceivable) serve improvements.

If there is one area where Nadal has a weakness - it is his serve return (ROS) (and we discussed the reasons in the posts above). Now before Nadal fans jump/scream at me and say he has great return stats - I'm not saying Nadal's ROS sucks. But just that it's not as good as the rest of his game. His returning stats are still very high because of how good his ground game is. If at any point (while returning serve) Nadal can get a rally to neutral - he inevitably wins the point. He's that good off the ground.
The problem is that on faster surfaces against big servers, Rafa has a lot of unreturned serves, shanked returns, returns which are so short (barely clear the service box) and are useless. So he can't get into extended rallies and has a disadvantage.

So yeah, looking at the elements in Nadal's game: best ever forehand, amazing backhand with best ever passing shot capability, ATG overhead, ATG backhand volleys, among the best movement and explosiveness etc etc - his ROS is simply not at that level.
It is ok, but not at an ATG level. Put it simply, if Nadal had a Novak/Murray type ROS - there would be no GOAT debates and Nadal would have several more slams. And also been injured less.

octobrina10 · Oct 15, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Good post. I agree with you entirely. I wouldn't say Novak was NOT bothered by Nadal's 2010 serve. Novak is an ATG ROS - so he was still able to handle it. But recall in that match when Nadal saved breakpoints and had 3 consecutive unreturnable serves, that even Novak was visibly frustrated. The 2010 serve was a large factor in Nadal beating Djokovic in 2010 UsOpen. I think Rafa played better of the ground in 2013, but served better in 2010.

Here is what I'm saying overall: Nadal's serve in 2019 - while good - is not near his best serving (which was in 2010). If we dissect each element of Nadal's game - his serve is NOT a weakness. Of course it is NOT at Fed's serve level (or even Djokovic level), but it is still pretty decent and gets the job done. You're absolutely right that Nadal's court positioning and aggressive intent are MUCH BIGGER game changers than any (perceivable) serve improvements.

If there is one area where Nadal has a weakness - it is his serve return (ROS) (and we discussed the reasons in the posts above). Now before Nadal fans jump/scream at me and say he has great return stats - I'm not saying Nadal's ROS sucks. But just that it's not as good as the rest of his game. His returning stats are still very high because of how good his ground game is. If at any point (while returning serve) Nadal can get a rally to neutral - he inevitably wins the point. He's that good off the ground.
The problem is that on faster surfaces against big servers, Rafa has a lot of unreturned serves, shanked returns, returns which are so short (barely clear the service box) and are useless. So he can't get into extended rallies and has a disadvantage.

So yeah, looking at the elements in Nadal's game: best ever forehand, amazing backhand with best ever passing shot capability, ATG overhead, ATG backhand volleys, among the best movement and explosiveness etc etc - his ROS is simply not at that level.
It is ok, but not at an ATG level. Put it simply, if Nadal had a Novak/Murray type ROS - there would be no GOAT debates and Nadal would have several more slams. And also been injured less.

I'm glad you admitted that you are not a Rafa fan.

You have pretended that you are.

zep · Oct 15, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I don't entirely agree with that. Nadal was already playing aggressive tennis BEFORE Moya joined.
In fact, the BEST serve and aggression from Nadal has been when Toni was there, and Moya had NOT come in.

I don't think much has changed with Moya. The aggression is up to Nadal. When he feels more confident, he plays aggressive. If he's not - he retreats into a pusher mode of defensive tennis.
This is what had happened in the early part of clay season, in the Wimb SF against Fed etc etc.

It's NOT the coach that makes the game. It's the player. Do you really believe that Djokovic or Fed improved because of their coaches? Do you think Fed's NEO backhand (post 2017) had anything to do with his coach?
It's all up to the player. Everyone tells Nadal to be aggressive: Toni, Moya, Roig -- all say the same. The problem is that it is Nadal who has to execute.

A coach can't change a 30 year old player suddenly. Whatever change Moya has made to Nadal's game, he already had those in him. But a coach can definitely help someone tactically and mentally. That's where Moya has made a difference and it's significant. I wonder how much difference Moya would have made if he had joined the team when Nadal was still in his physical prime. But at that time his normal game was working well so didn't really have to make many changes. So perhaps he wouldn't be so eager to change himself.

TennisFan3 · Oct 15, 2019

octobrina10 said:
I'm glad you admitted that you are not a Rafa fan. You have pretended that you are.

Are you serious? When did I say I'm not a Nadal fan? I was referring to the rabid Nadal fans who are akin to the rabid fans. Basically who believe that Nadal cannot do anything wrong ever. (not saying you are one of them BTW).

TennisFan3 · Oct 15, 2019

zep said:
A coach can't change a 30 year old player suddenly. Whatever change Moya has made to Nadal's game, he already had those in him. But a coach can definitely help someone tactically and mentally. That's where Moya has made a difference and it's significant. I wonder how much difference Moya would have made if he had joined the team when Nadal was still at his physical prime. But at that time his normal game was working well so didn't really have to make many changes. So perhaps he wouldn't be so eager to change himself.

Moya's made some positive changes for sure. But over a period of time it is Nadal who has to realize that he needs to be aggressive and shorten the points (which he is doing these days). Even Uncle Toni didn't tell Nadal to play defensive tennis and run all the time. Nadal is generally closed to non-Spanish expert coaching as he prefers a close confidant. I mean he's won 19 slams, so who's to argue.
But IMO he would have been a better player with a world class coach, who didn't speak Spanish.
At the very least, Nadal would have been injured less coz he would have been more offensive - trusting his shotmaking than his wheels.

Bender · Oct 15, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Are you serious? When did I say I'm not a Nadal fan? I was referring to the rabid Nadal fans who are akin to the rabid fans. Basically who believe that Nadal cannot do anything wrong ever. (not saying you are one of them BTW).

She's trolling you

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

Bender said:
She's trolling you

Hmm. I wonder what my comment has to do with you.

Bender · Oct 16, 2019

octobrina10 said:
Hmm. I wonder what my comment has to do with you.

I'm in the thread

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
...
... But IMO he would have been a better player with a world class coach, who didn't speak Spanish.
At the very least, Nadal would have been injured less coz he would have been more offensive - trusting his shotmaking than his wheels.

I don't believe this one bit.

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Moya's made some positive changes for sure. But over a period of time it is Nadal who has to realize that he needs to be aggressive and shorten the points (which he is doing these days). Even Uncle Toni didn't tell Nadal to play defensive tennis and run all the time. Nadal is generally closed to non-Spanish expert coaching as he prefers a close confidant. I mean he's won 19 slams, so who's to argue.
...

Moya has always said that a star player is the most important figure, always. But the coach can give a 1% improvement that makes the difference between being one or two of the world, which is a lot. He can provide tactics, technique.
ABC, Dec. 19, 2016: ¤¤ Carlos Moya: "I am his friend, but I will demand from Nadal more than anyone else [in his team]" ¤¤ (Google translation from Spanish)

Carlos Moyá: «Soy su amigo, pero voy a exigir a Nadal más que nadie»

El primer español que fue número uno del mundo en el tenis se ha sumado al equipo técnico del campeón de catorce grandes para refrescar sus habilidades

www.abc.es

And Rafa talks:
Reuters, Sept. 2017: ¤¤ World number one Rafa Nadal says the addition of compatriot Carlos Moya to his coaching team has added freshness and positive energy to the Spaniard’s training routine.
Moya, a former world number one, joined Nadal's team to work with his uncle Toni Nadal last December and has helped revitalise the 31-year-old's career.
"Carlos has been a great support. He came with excitement and also the belief that with a few things, I could improve my results. And it has helped," Nadal told Spanish newspaper El Espanol.
"It has been a breath of fresh air, positive energy. We have changed the way we practice and for Toni it has been also good." ¤¤

Nadal hails Moya's impact on training routine

World number one Rafa Nadal says the addition of compatriot Carlos Moya to his coaching team has added freshness and positive energy to the Spaniard's training routine.

www.reuters.com

mistik · Oct 16, 2019

I am not totally sold on Moya compare to Toni.I still believe Rafa was best big match player under Toni.Yes he achieved a lot under Moya but not to play Djokovic in Us opens final in 2017 and 2019 helped Rafa.He lost so many big matches to Fed and Djokovic.Under Moya he is more consistent but more nervous and less explosive.

TennisFan3 · Oct 16, 2019

octobrina10 said:
Moya has always said that a star player is the most important figure, always. But the coach can give a 1% improvement that makes the difference between being one or two of the world, which is a lot. He can provide tactics, technique.
ABC, Dec. 19, 2016: ¤¤ Carlos Moya: "I am his friend, but I will demand from Nadal more than anyone else [in his team]" ¤¤ (Google translation from Spanish)

Carlos Moyá: «Soy su amigo, pero voy a exigir a Nadal más que nadie»

El primer español que fue número uno del mundo en el tenis se ha sumado al equipo técnico del campeón de catorce grandes para refrescar sus habilidades

www.abc.es

And Rafa talks:
Reuters, Sept. 2017: ¤¤ World number one Rafa Nadal says the addition of compatriot Carlos Moya to his coaching team has added freshness and positive energy to the Spaniard’s training routine.
Moya, a former world number one, joined Nadal's team to work with his uncle Toni Nadal last December and has helped revitalise the 31-year-old's career.
"Carlos has been a great support. He came with excitement and also the belief that with a few things, I could improve my results. And it has helped," Nadal told Spanish newspaper El Espanol.
"It has been a breath of fresh air, positive energy. We have changed the way we practice and for Toni it has been also good." ¤¤

Nadal hails Moya's impact on training routine

World number one Rafa Nadal says the addition of compatriot Carlos Moya to his coaching team has added freshness and positive energy to the Spaniard's training routine.

www.reuters.com

octobrina10 said:
I don't believe this one bit.

Look we can agree to disagree.
I'm not saying Moya is a bad addition to Nadal's team. Yes, it's a fresh pair of eyes and a new opinion is not bad.
BUT - Nadal played his VERY BEST and his MOST aggressive tennis purely under Toni. His F.O/Wimbledon 2010, UsOpen 2010/2013 and to an extent 2017 - all came under Toni's vision. The days when he was in his prime - which he clearly isn't now.
Also what do you expect Nadal to say? That Moya isn't useful. Of course he will praise his new coach.

Overall, Toni has done something invaluable to Nadal which perhaps no other coach could ever do. The reason Nadal is an ATG (and one of the GOATs) is because he is the greatest warrior in this sport. That immense mental strength and resilience is what Toni has instilled in Nadal that makes him so. At this stage in his career, Nadal would have been equally successful with Toni or Moya. It's NOT like he would NOT have won slams after UsOpen 2017 if Toni had been there and Moya hadn't joined.

My only point was that IF(and it's a big if), in the beginning, Nadal had an international world class coaching expert in his team (maybe supplementing Toni) - his technique would have been better and he would have caused less damage to his knees and body.
The problem with Rafa is that he is a family man and generally doesn't trust outsiders. Look at Djokovic and Federer - who have not been hesitant to hire coaches outside their own territory. And it has done wonders to their game.
Obviously there are technical limitations to what someone like Toni or Roig will teach a young Nadal, as these guys are not that good or comparable to world class coaches.

TennisFan3 · Oct 16, 2019

mistik said:
I am not totally sold on Moya compare to Toni.I still believe Rafa was best big match player under Toni.Yes he achieved a lot under Moya but not to play Djokovic in Us opens final in 2017 and 2019 helped Rafa.He lost so many big matches to Fed and Djokovic.Under Moya he is more consistent but more nervous and less explosive.

Exactly my point. Overall the coach does NOT make such a big difference. The fact that Nadal is losing to Fed and Djokovic is NOT because of the coaching change but because he is AGING and past his prime. The results would have been same had it been Moya or Toni. But under Toni, Nadal would perhaps been mentally stronger.

It's too late to change Nadal's game now (not that it needs fixing) in the last stages of his career. It's up to Nadal himself to be more aggressive still, serve bigger, shorten the points to squeak out as much as he can in the final years on tour.

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
Look we can agree to disagree.
I'm not saying Moya is a bad addition to Nadal's team. Yes, it's a fresh pair of eyes and a new opinion is not bad.
BUT - Nadal played his VERY BEST and his MOST aggressive tennis purely under Toni. His F.O/Wimbledon 2010, UsOpen 2010/2013 and to an extent 2017 - all came under Toni's vision. The days when he was in his prime - which he clearly isn't now.
Also what do you expect Nadal to say? That Moya isn't useful. Of course he will praise his new coach.

Overall, Toni has done something invaluable to Nadal which perhaps no other coach could ever do. The reason Nadal is an ATG (and one of the GOATs) is because he is the greatest warrior in this sport. That immense mental strength and resilience is what Toni has instilled in Nadal that makes him so. At this stage in his career, Nadal would have been equally successful with Toni or Moya. It's NOT like he would NOT have won slams after UsOpen 2017 if Toni had been there and Moya hadn't joined.

My only point was that IF(and it's a big if), in the beginning, Nadal had an international world class coaching expert in his team (maybe supplementing Toni) - his technique would have been better and he would have caused less damage to his knees and body.
The problem with Rafa is that he is a family man and generally doesn't trust outsiders. Look at Djokovic and Federer - who have not been hesitant to hire coaches outside their own territory. And it has done wonders to their game.
Obviously there are technical limitations to what someone like Toni or Roig will teach a young Nadal, as these guys are not that good or comparable to world class coaches.

Djoko re-hired his former coach.

TennisFan3 · Oct 16, 2019

octobrina10 said:
Djoko re-hired his former coach.

I know. But he tried several other "world class coaches" who added things to his game.
Look at Fed, and Ljubicic has done to his game. His previous coaches were also world class.

Of course, Toni made Nadal and Rafa is already one of the greatest ever. But he could definitely have benefitted from more variety and other expert eyes.

Great that he hired Moya - but it shouldn't have been so late to wait until he was in his 30s. Experimenting early in his career - might have helped him. Especially in 2014-2016 , when he was going in a downward spiral.

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I know. But he tried several other "world class coaches" who added things to his game.
Look at Fed, and Ljubicic has done to his game. His previous coaches were also world class.

Of course, Toni made Nadal and Rafa is already one of the greatest ever. But he could definitely have benefitted from more variety and other expert eyes.

Great that he hired Moya - but it shouldn't have been so late to wait until he was in his 30s. Experimenting early in his career - might have helped him. Especially in 2014-2016 , when he was going in a downward spiral.

In 2015, Rafa lacked confidence due to injuries he suffered in 2014.
In the spring of 2016, he injured his left wrist. It caused him problems during the whole year.

King No1e · Oct 16, 2019

Outstanding move

TennisFan3 · Oct 16, 2019

octobrina10 said:
In 2015, Rafa lacked confidence due to injuries he suffered in 2014.
In the spring of 2016, he injured his left wrist. It caused him problems during the whole year.

I don't disagree with that. Just saying he could have hired outside help early. I mean in 2011 - when Novak had figured him out. Imagine if Moya had come then? Maybe they would have made changes necessary for beating Novak and he would not have lacked confidence in 2015 as well.
Nadal stuck with Toni for almost 80-85% of his career, and hired Moya towards the end. Sure, it's been a winning formula. But IMO he could have had outside help earlier. That way he could have done better and won more slams and also not gone through the lean patch of 2012-2016.

octobrina10 · Oct 16, 2019

TennisFan3 said:
I don't disagree with that. Just saying he could have hired outside help early. I mean in 2011 - when Novak had figured him out. Imagine if Moya had come then? Maybe they would have made changes necessary for beating Novak and he would not have lacked confidence in 2015 as well.
Nadal stuck with Toni for almost 80-85% of his career, and hired Moya towards the end. Sure, it's been a winning formula. But IMO he could have had outside help earlier. That way he could have done better and won more slams and also not gone through the lean patch of 2012-2016.

It was a happy coincidence that C.Moya became "unemployed" (M. Raonic ended his partnership with coach Moya) after uncle Toni was named the Head of Rafa's academy and he wanted to spend more time in Mallorca.
Rafa wants to be surrounded by 'good' people, and C.Moya is one of them. Moya was Rafa's childhood hero. They have known each other since Rafa was 12-13 years old. Moya mentored Rafa, when he became a professional player at age 15, and they have been good friends ever since. Moya has said he has not needed any period of adaptation to the Rafa team because it’s like a family, he has always been one of the family members, even if he has been outside.
http://www.elespanol.com/deportes/tenis/20170110/184982046_0.html

Moya joins Rafa's coaching team

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