I sense a shift in the TIGER debate as Djoker sets aim on Rafa

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Regarding this question, no, I don’t think he’s a better player, I think he’s a different player. For example: of course his peak level dropped, his movement is much worse, BUT, give me a choice between Nadal 2010 and Nadal 2019 against any opponent not named Federer or Djokovic off clay, I pick Nadal 2019 immediately.
You will never see 2010 Nadal losing to Fognini on clay, come on. Nadal who showed up in MC 2010 would defeat Fognini something like 6-0 6-1. He lost 14 games during the whole tournament. So yeah, at least on clay 2010 Nadal>>>>>>>>>>>>.............................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2019 Nadal.
 

Yugram

Legend
You will never see 2010 Nadal losing to Fognini on clay, come on. Nadal who showed up in MC 2010 would defeat Fognini something like 6-0 6-1. He lost 14 games during the whole tournament. So yeah, at least on clay 2010 Nadal>>>>>>>>>>>>.............................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2019 Nadal.
That’s exactly why I made off clay note.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Nadal was very poor against Nishikori and Dimitrov. I actually remember him hitting 3 double faults in one game against Dimitrov. He was lucky not to lose that one IMO, Dimitrov choked hard in the third set. Nadal was the favorite given that Djokovic was out, but I remember I didn't feel confident about his chances. I had a much better opinion about his chances in USO 2013, even though Djokovic was in the draw until the end.

Well everyone here had all but given him the trophy after Djokovic went out.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
You will never see 2010 Nadal losing to Fognini on clay, come on. Nadal who showed up in MC 2010 would defeat Fognini something like 6-0 6-1. He lost 14 games during the whole tournament. So yeah, at least on clay 2010 Nadal>>>>>>>>>>>>.............................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2019 Nadal.
Would you trade a 10% increase on HC's and a 10% decrease on clay in 2010? Because that is the difference in 2019.

It is a trade off, but with more HC matches and slams, I think that could be a positive one.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Would you trade a 10% increase on HC's and a 10% decrease on clay in 2010? Because that is the difference in 2019.

It is a trade off, but with more HC matches and slams, I think that could be a positive one.
Nadal isn't a better player on any surface compared to 2010 IMO. His level in USO 2010 was also higher than in USO 2019.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Yet 2010 Nadal lost to Ljubicic and freakin’ Baghdatis on hard courts. Nadal 2019 would never let this happen.
And 2019 Nadal didn't even play in the tournaments where it happened. (well, formally he played IW this year, but he withdrew in the middle). You can't lose if you don't play. As for the tournaments which he won, Nadal was terrible in Montreal and just took an advantage of a weak field, and still had to escape from a set down against Fognini. Much better in USO, but his USO 2010 level was still much higher. He dropped his serve just 5 times during the tournament in 2010.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
How did I get into having to defend Rafa today? I can no longer fight this fight, I have plenty of Fed videos to go watch. :sneaky: Your turn @StrongRule and @Yugram;)
I just wanted to say that Rafa was injured parts of 2013, he went into Christmas holiday w a knee to heal. So it was not right what the one you discussed w said about Rafa being healthy all year.
This must be the first time ever after winning multiple slams and number one not having any injures to deal w and just build on and improve.
It’s rare Rafa can use time off not being injured and just prepare really
Last year this time he had surgery... it was incredible he even reached the AO final that short since surgery. Took Novak many months to be in the very top after his surgery.
 

ADuck

Legend
Djokovic fans are definitely not in conflict with Rafa fans nearly as much as Federer fans because Fed has 20x as many of the bad, bandwagon obnoxious fans that Rafa has. That may change when Rafa passes Fed in the next two years because all the fans who follow Fed solely because he’s #1 and they need to attach their identity to that will have an existential crisis lol.

If Rafa gets to 21/22, wins another AO/USO on the way and rips that GOAT title away you’re gonna see an exodus of Fed fans on here.
If Rafa passes Fed there will also be more obnoxious Rafa fans. I don't see it being as bad though because Fed is/was more popular. I wonder if Rafa's humble nature might rub off more on his fans than Fed's but I'm not sure.

Can you imagine though if Kyrgios was a multiple slam champion? I wonder what kind of people would be fans of him. Maybe the worst kinds of fans in the entire world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vex

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
If Rafa passes Fed there will also be more obnoxious Rafa fans. I don't see it being as bad though because Fed is/was more popular. I wonder if Rafa's humble nature might rub off more on his fans than Fed's but I'm not sure.

Can you imagine though if Kyrgios was a multiple slam champion? I wonder what kind of people would be fans of him. Maybe the worst kinds of fans in the entire world.
If NK reaches one slam final... well, that would be the end of TTW.
 
The Nadal is the Best Undisputed Lawn tennis Legand
giphy.gif


And Joker is Totally Handily In the Rear Distance

Actual footage from the Roland Garros 2008 final
 

ADuck

Legend
I pretty much agree with Hitman. Rafa has never had 2 great seasons in a row and I already see signs that he will be injured at AO (his hand injury seems to be a recurring problem and he's playing a lot of matches lately). But I have hope that 2020 could be different. I think Rafa has clear ideas for what he can do to keep improving his game and that is really motivating for him at the moment. I feel like 2020 is either going to be even better than 2019, or it will be a big letdown. The most contributing factor will be his health.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
It would be the beginning of the end I think. The bad seeds just beginning to blossom into the most ugly fanbase in human history.
Can't be worse than the growing Thiem fanbase. Some of my practice buddies are hardcore Thiem fans and they make @90's Clay look like a fair, enlightened soul.
 

ADuck

Legend
Can't be worse than the growing Thiem fanbase. Some of my practice buddies are hardcore Thiem fans and they make @90's Clay look like a fair, enlightened soul.
What!? You gotta be kidding me. Maybe they are just a couple outliers. I like Thiem so it would be disappointing to see him grow a bad fanbase. Also, Thiem and Kyrgios could not be more different people and players actually so I'm fairly confident Kyrgios' would be way worse.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
What!? You gotta be kidding me. Maybe they are just a couple outliers. I like Thiem so it would be disappointing to see him grow a bad fanbase. Also, Thiem and Kyrgios could not be more different people and players actually so I'm fairly confident Kyrgios' would be way worse.
Agreed that a Kyrgios fanbase would be an absolute terror, but you'd be surprised at how hilariously toxic this new Thiem fanbase is.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
This is a great example of TTW being TTW again. When Djokovic won Wimbledon it was, it's only a matter of time until he catches Federer. Nadal win USO, then it's Djokovic is out of the Slam race. LOL. People just never learn really but I have no problem with Rafa being the Slam leader and I don't think most Djokovic fans do either. I think people are too obsessed with this number really and who will lead. Rafa at this point looks primed to pass Federer in Slam count but honestly, he should be wanting to add more weeks at #1 as well. To me, that is a must because if not, he's going to end his career behind Federer, Sampras, Djokovic, Lendl and Connors in that stat. It's going to be hard to be seen as better than every other player if you are not even in the top 5 in weeks at #1. So in conclusion, I say just let everything play out instead of making hasty predictions once again and it totally turning.
There is nothing "hard" about being better with less weeks as #1. Lendl has more weeks as #1 than Nadal yet no serious person considers him better than Nadal.

The number of Slams has always been the main GOAT criterion. Other criteria like H2H in Slams, H2H overall, weeks as #1, Year End #1, Olympics, ATP finals, Masters 1000, Davis Cup, etc. are only tie-breakers in case two players are tied in Slams.

Also, the fact that Nadal has 5 Year End #1 as Federer partially compensates the difference in # of weeks. Year End #1 is equally relevant than weeks as #1, and Nadal has as many as Federer.
 
Last edited:

Fabresque

Legend
I don’t see Federer or Nadal beating Djokovic at any slam (except Nadal at RG) but weirdly enough Djokovic is more vulnerable at slams to me (NextGen, Stanimal). I think if Djokovic wants any solid chance to catch up he has to win next years AO, no question. I think Federer’s done winning slams, his last real chance would be Wimbledon or maybe AO. Rafa is for sure winning RG, and it’s gonna take a miracle to beat him (Only Thiem and Djokovic have any chance to do that).

Fed’s in some serious trouble. If Nadal wins a slam he officially ties it up and is most likely going to overtake him. If Djokovic wins a slam he’s only two behind Rafa and if he wins one slam in a year, I’d say he’ll win a second. When he gets on a roll there’s no one stopping him.

Besides RG, I’d say Federer and Djokovic are definite favorites to beat Nadal at the other 3 slams, but Nadal isn’t as vulnerable to an early exit as those two.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Besides RG, I’d say Federer and Djokovic are definite favorites to beat Nadal at the other 3 slams, but Nadal isn’t as vulnerable to an early exit as those two.
Federer is not favorite over Nadal at the AO or espeically the USO.

Nadal leads the H2H over Federer 3-1 at the AO. Of course, Fedefer won their last match in Australia and he won their 4 HC matches in 2017. But 2020 is not 2017. Federer will be older and Nadal still leads the H2H over him in outdoor hard, so I would say a match between them in the AO is 50-50.

At the USO is simply ridiculous to call Federer favorite over Nadal. Federer has won 0 USO since 2008, while Nadal has won 4 USO in the 2010s, meaning Nadal is the better USO player nowadays.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
There is nothing "hard" about being better with less weeks as #1. Lendl has more weeks as #1 than Nadal yet no serious person considers him better than Nadal.

The number of Slams has always been the main GOAT criterion. Other criteria like H2H in Slams, H2H overall, weeks as #1, Year End #1, Olympics, ATP finals, Masters 1000, Davis Cup, etc. are only tie-breakers in case two players are tied in Slams.

Also, the fact that Nadal has 5 Year End #1 as Federer partially compensates the difference in # of weeks. Year End #1 is equally relevant than weeks as #1, and Nadal has as many as Federer.

It will be hard to be seen as better than everyone else if you spent a considerable amount of time as actually not being the best player in the world. Head to head is used as tiebreakers and is not even all that important. Funny that your most important criteria outside of Slam titles is head to head in Slams. YE #1 is important but weeks at #1 has always been more important, which is why that is the record that Djokovic talked of wanting to break.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
It will be hard to be seen as better than everyone else if you spent a considerable amount of time as actually not being the best player in the world. Head to head is used as tiebreakers and is not even all that important. Funny that your most important criteria outside of Slam titles is head to head in Slams. YE #1 is important but weeks at #1 has always been more important, which is why that is the record that Djokovic talked of wanting to break.

Slam titles >> Weeks at #1

Achievements in the majors is what truly defines careers, not minors.

Also, Novak was seemingly close to weeks at #1, so that was really just more tangible.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Slam titles >> Weeks at #1

Achievements in the majors is what truly defines careers, not minors.

Also, Novak was seemingly close to weeks at #1, so that was really just more tangible.
While I think everyone agrees slams are the most important thing in tennis, weeks at number one is not a "minor" thing. The goal has always been to be the best, and being number one shows this as well.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Slam titles >> Weeks at #1

Achievements in the majors is what truly defines careers, not minors.

Also, Novak was seemingly close to weeks at #1, so that was really just more tangible.

Of course, this we already know but outside of Slam titles time spent at #1 is what is next to most important. Who said anything about minors?

He was closer to tying the record for YE #1 but that didn't seem to be his focus, or at the very least he never mentioned it.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
Of course, this we already know but outside of Slam titles time spent at #1 is what is next to most important. Who said anything about minors?

He was closer to tying the record for YE #1 but that didn't seem to be his focus, or at the very least he never mentioned it.

Effectively weeks at number 1 are combining them but we already have a system for counting the majors, it's called slam count and it's not diluted.

You don't recall him mentioning that he was going to fight (POST USO) for the YE#1? I do

Also, he was closer to BREAKING the record for weeks at number 1 than he was breaking the record for YE#1.

I'm not denying that weeks at #1 are part of building ones resume but ultimately it's just not nearly as important as slams. All else being equal or quite close to it? Perhaps, it would depend.
 
D

Deleted member 763691

Guest
Djokovic is an afterthought now.
Djok is way down there on 16, while Rafa is on 19 and soaring to the record :)
The world only cares about Rafa and Fed.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
While I think everyone agrees slams are the most important thing in tennis, weeks at number one is not a "minor" thing. The goal has always been to be the best, and being number one shows this as well.

Weeks at #1 tell us about consistency across all events but is inevitably combining majors and minors. Slam count allows for us true legacy defining events with the small ones.
 
Last edited:

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is an afterthought now.
Djok is way down there on 16, while Rafa is on 19 and soaring to the record :)
The world only cares about Rafa and Fed.

Novak is really only 1 back from where Rafa started last season in terms of slam count (relative to his age) so I wouldn't be so dismissive.
 

Fabresque

Legend
Federer is not favorite over Nadal at the AO or espeically the USO.

Nadal leads the H2H over Federer 3-1 at the AO. Of course, Fedefer won their last match in Australia and he won their 4 HC matches in 2017. But 2020 is not 2017. Federer will be older and Nadal still leads the H2H over him in outdoor hard, so I would say a match between them in the AO is 50-50.

At the USO is simply ridiculous to call Federer favorite over Nadal. Federer has won 0 USO since 2008, while Nadal has won 4 USO in the 2010s, meaning Nadal is the better USO player nowadays.
I disagree. Federer’s H2H against Nadal since 2015 points to the conclusion that he’d be a favorite over Nadal on a hard surface. This isn’t old Fed getting bullied by the buggy whip forehand anymore, he knows how to deal with it and punish Nadal for his loopiness. Regardless of venue or surface, I still believe Federer is the favorite over Nadal on hardcourts (AO more so than USO, I’ll give you that). Also another data point to consider, in Nadal’s last two USO wins he didn’t have to play either Federer or Djokovic to win the title. So take that for what it’s worth.
 

vex

Legend
Djokovic is an afterthought now.
Djok is way down there on 16, while Rafa is on 19 and soaring to the record :)
The world only cares about Rafa and Fed.
Djoker will be the favorite at 3/4 slams this year homie. Any slam Rafa wins outside RG is an “upset”
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Weeks at #1 tell us about consistency across all events but is inevitably combining majors and minors. Slam count allows for us not to dilute the small events with the true legacy defining ones.
Players dream of three things, winning slams, becoming number one, and of becoming TIGER.
Novak is really only 1 back from where Rafa started last season in terms of slam count (relative to his age) so I wouldn't be so dismissive.
Yep, Djoker is no after thought. Unless the kids start producing in slams, Djoker is very likely to get 4-5 more slams with relative ease. But if Rafa wins a few more, it will be out of reach for Djoker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vex

Sport

G.O.A.T.
It will be hard to be seen as better than everyone else if you spent a considerable amount of time as actually not being the best player in the world. Head to head is used as tiebreakers and is not even all that important. Funny that your most important criteria outside of Slam titles is head to head in Slams. YE #1 is important but weeks at #1 has always been more important, which is why that is the record that Djokovic talked of wanting to break.
Debatable, but I respect your opinion.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
I disagree. Federer’s H2H against Nadal since 2015 points to the conclusion that he’d be a favorite over Nadal on a hard surface. This isn’t old Fed getting bullied by the buggy whip forehand anymore, he knows how to deal with it and punish Nadal for his loopiness. Regardless of venue or surface, I still believe Federer is the favorite over Nadal on hardcourts (AO more so than USO, I’ll give you that). Also another data point to consider, in Nadal’s last two USO wins he didn’t have to play either Federer or Djokovic to win the title. So take that for what it’s worth.
? Djokovic also did not face Nadal at the USO 2018 and it doesn't make his title less important. Federer also did not face Nadal at the USO 2017, USO 2018 or USO 2019 yet he still lost to lesser players than Nadal.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
? Djokovic also did not face Nadal at the USO 2018 and it doesn't make his title less important. Federer also did not face Nadal at the USO 2017, USO 2018 or USO 2019 yet he still lost to lesser players than Nadal.

Fed hasn't won a USO in over a decade, whocares if somebody managed to "avoid" him on the way to their title? It could hardly more more irrelevant.
 
Top