Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Murray, Shanghai final, 2012

W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Novak Djokovic beat Andy Murray 5-7, 7-6(11), 6-3 in the Shanghai final, 2012 on hard court

It was Djokovic's first title at the event, while Murray was going for his third in a row. The two had recently played the US Open final (where Murray won his first Slam) and would shortly afterwards play the 2013 Australian Open final (where Djokovic would win)

Djokovic won 119 points, Murray 113

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (62/104) 60%
- 1st serve points won (43/62) 69%
- 2nd serve points won (20/42) 48%
- Aces 3
- Double Faults 4
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (29/104) 28%

Murray...
- 1st serve percentage (71/128) 55%
- 1st serve points won (46/71) 65%
- 2nd serve points won (26/57) 46%
- Aces 4, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (32/128) 25%

Serve Patterns
Djokovic served...
- to FH 43%
- to BH 41%
- to Body 16%

Murray served...
- to FH 46%
- to BH 52%
- to Body 2%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 93 (49 FH, 44 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 3 Winners (3 BH)
- 27 Errors, comprising...
- 12 Unforced (7 FH, 5 BH)
- 15 Forced (4 FH, 11 BH)
- Return Rate (93/125) 74%

Murray made...
- 71 (32 FH, 39 BH)
- 2 Winners (1 FH, 1 BH)
- 26 Errors, comprising...
- 15 Unforced (10 FH, 5 BH)
- 11 Forced (4 FH, 7 BH)
- Return Rate (71/100) 71%

Break Points
Djokovic 6/13 (7 games)
Murray 5/6 (5 game)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Djokovic 27 (10 FH, 7 BH, 4 FHV, 2 BHV, 4 OH)
Murray 22 (11 FH, 6 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BH1/2V, 2 OH)

Djokovic's FHs - 1 cc, 5 inside-out, 3 inside-in and 1 inside-in/cc
- BHs - 2 cc (1 return), 2 dtl, 2 inside-out returns and 1 drop shot

- 3 FHVs were swinging shots (1 non-net shot)
- 2 OHs were on bounce (1 from baseline) and 1 was a non-net shot (taken on full closer to baseline than service line)

Murray's FHs - 3 cc (1 return, 1 pass), 1 dtl, 4 inside-out, 1 inside-in, 1 inside-in/cc and 1 running-down-drop-shot dtl at net net chord dribbler
- BHs - 4 cc (1 return, 1 pass), 1 inside-out and 1 drop shot

- 1 BHV can reasonably be called a BHOH
- 1 OH was on the bounce

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 55
- 29 Unforced (13 FH, 13 BH, 3 FHV)... with 2 non-net swinging FHVs
- 26 Forced (11 FH, 12 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 Tweener)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 46.9

Murray 60
- 47 Unforced (22 FH, 24 BH, 1 Challenge)
- 13 Forced (8 FH, 4 BH, 1 Tweener)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 44.6

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was...
- 15/26 (58%) at net, with...
- 1/5 (20%) forced back/retreated

Murray was...
- 13/15 (87%) at net, with...
- 0/2 forced back/retreated

Match Report
Top class match featuring terrific returning ,excellent ball striking and great defence from both players on a quick-ish court. Djokovic dominates the final set but first two are near enough even, and its Murray who lets a win slip through his fingers in the second

Murray serves for the match in second set and leading 30-0, forces Djokovic back with a lob. But remains on the baseline himself. Djoko pulls of a tweener to put ball back in play and goes on to win the point with a perfect BH drop shot. He rarely plays drop shots in the match - action is all about ball striking, and finesse rarely comes into picture - and generally, makes a hash of the shot regularly. Hell of a time to pull off a perfect one, especially given what happened earlier in the point. Still, Murray brings up a match point later in game. Djoko commands the point and whacks a short-ish ball FH inside-in for a winner - and goes on to break with some excellent returns and other hard hit groundies

Murray has 4 further match points in the tiebreak, 2 of them before Djoko has the first of his four set points, and the first of them on his serve. He's learnt from the non-approach mistake that probably cost him the title and takes to coming to net to end points in tiebreak - behind very strong approach shots. Tiebreak ends when Djoko whacks a typical deep return from outside court and Murray misses his FH into open court. Not an easy shot, but more makeable than not. On the first set point he's had on his serve, Djoko whacks away a third ball, swinging FHV winner

Beyond all that, the tiebreak is excellent tennis from both players - strong deep returns or somehow neutralizing ones to strong wide serves, followed by hard hitting baseline play with great defence thrown in from both players. The whole dynamic of the end of second set is similar to famous 4th set of 1980 Wimbledon final between Borg and McEnroe

Match levelled, Djoko commands third set, breaks twice, serves 24 points to Murray's 37 and takes the match

And before all that is the strangeness of the first set, which has 7 breaks in 12 games. That isn't even the end of the strangeness. One of the rare holds is by Murray in a game he misses all 6 first serves in (including a double fault). And the decisive break comes with Djokovic blowing a 40-0 lead - there's a flawless Murray BH inside-out winner in there, but the rest of the points he loses are via his own UEs - and Djoko obliterates his racquet at end of it

There is no key difference that shapes the result. Point here, point there stuff for two sets. Murray faltering in third set puts Djoko ahead in most areas by match end - he leads unreturned rate by 3%, is +5 on winners and -18 on UEs. Murray forces double the number of errors though - 26 to 13
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Serve & Return
The serving is at least decent, the returning outstanding, top tier - its what makes the match

On fast-ish court, its common for even decent serving to shut out returners thoroughly, leading to a 1-bad-service-game/1-good/lucky-return-game or even odd-point-here-and-there type match. Looking at conditions, I'd have expected 30%+ unreturned rate against good returning (and not surprised to see 40%+ against average returning)

Unreturned rates are kept down to 28% for Djoko, 25% for Murray - allowing for rallies

Looking at it from alternative point of view, high return rates (74% for Djoko, 71% for Murray) in such conditions tend to lead to server being in complete command of third ball and points ending quickly. That's the opposite of what happens. Both players return phenomenally - just neutralizing returns are given, initiative grabbing is common. Point ending returning is kept down by great handling of hard hit, very deep returns though there's plenty of highly pressured UEs and some FEs of the third ball. And 5 return winners - all of them with server on the baseline

Murray has the stronger first serve, which he more often than not holds back on. When he lets loose, it looks unreturnable powerful. Djoko engages in regulation serving to swing zone, only rarely getting ball wide.
This gives Djoko more scope to showcase his return against powerful wide serves. He slaps many a strongly forceful wide serve back deep. Just reaching the ball is tough - he hits potential point ending shots on them

Murray is the stronger returner against second serves. Both players hit hard and deep, usually down the middle but Murray is moving forward as he makes contact, thus hitting harder. And on average, probably gets a few more balls completely deep to baseline

Note flip results for return FEs/UEs - Djoko has 12 UEs, 15 FEs, Murray 15 UEs, 11 FEs... that's a product of Murray's stronger serves. The UEs are typically not easy - regulation returns against in swing path first serves

I suppose beneath it all is the general conservative mindset of both players. If you can hit returns hard down the middle like they do, wouldn't you be tempted to hitting wide for outright winners? Rarely does either player do so, preferring going over low part of net down the middle

Play - Baseline (and Net)
Action is based around moderately attacking baseline play. And great defence

27 winners from Djokovic, 22 from Murray are not high numbers (especially Murray's) for such a long match, with low unreturned rates. Play isn't passive though. Like the returning, powerful and deep shots are hallmark of groundstrokes... its the kind of hitting that's likely to draw errors sooner rather than later even without wide placement on this court

To be clear, there is mildly wide placement of shots too. Its not straight out crosscourt ballbashing... this type of play should distinctly draw errors sooner rather than later

It doesn't because both players are superb in defence and rallies are rarely short

Big difference in error types -
- UEs - Djokovic 29, Murray 47
- FEs - Djokovic 26, Murray 13

... are figures that would tend to indicate Murray being the more aggressive. That's not true. Neither are overly attacking, but Djokovic more. He's more willing to step in and look to hammer point ending shots. The most aggressive shot for both players is FH inside-out on which Djoko has 5/10 FH winners, Murray 4/11. Djoko indulges much more with that line of attack and Murray not only does so less, but far more moderately. Some of his FH inside-outs are almost neutral shots

Djokovic also steps in and looks for point killing swinging volleys. He has 3 winners on the shot - 1 of them closer to baseline than service line. Also puts away an OH on the full from near back of court. Djoko's at net 26 times and looks to come in to finish points too, though he's not particularly good on the volley, while Murray is very good on the pass to leave Djoko winning just 58% net points, despite coming in off strong approaches

Murray though barely comes in at all. He's a perfect 13/13 when finishing point at net (he loses 2 points he's forced back on) coming in behind very strong approach shots that would likely draw error even without the approach part. Couple of games after letting Djoko off the hook on the tweener retrieval point, the same situation comes up again. This time, Murray follows his lob to net and Djoko misses the tweener

Murray's significantly higher UE count is bolstered in last set, where his level drops more than Djoko's rises. Even so, Djoko has large advantage in basic consistency. He has 17 neutral UEs to Murray's 31

The FE discrepancy indicates Murray was stronger off defence, which is somewhat counter-balanced by Djoko being better counter-attacking. Djoko is likely to hit an attacking shot from a defensive position, turning momentum of point on its head. Murray by contrast, defends orthodoxly, challenging Djoko to put the point to bed. Another reason is Djoko's consistency advantage... Murray has to do more to get the error out of him than other way around. Djoko's more resistant to giving up 'hard UEs', for example, against a deep-ish, above average power hit ball or slightly wide

Should be noted that UEs for this match are about as hard as they come, with plenty of deep-ish, above average power or slightly wide hit balls drawing the errors. Not strong enough to be marked FE, but no picnic to put in play either... and shots are persistently hit in that way. Its very pressuring play

Summing up, top notch match with both players playing in similar style. The returning in particular is first class with regular, hard hit deep balls against anything less than very strong serving and even strong serving is frequently played that way. Baseline action is along similar lines. Both players hit very challenging regulation groundstrokes - clean hits, deep and sooner or later, moderately wide. Its efficient play designed to draw errors skirting the lines between 'forced' and 'unforced' and is met with excellent movement and defence too

Djokovic is bit more enterprising in attacking though that's not why he wins. Match is in Murray's hands in the second set and he blows it a bit more than Djoko snatches it away. Final set though is one sided with Murray's standard dropping and Djokovic shooting ahead
 
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ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Out of Curiosity ,@Waspsting I see you do reports for Matches from start of open era till now.

What is the one match you watched that you deem to be of the highest quality? If it's hard to compare eras ,what of the 20th century?
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
StrongRule said:
This match changed everything. I really thought it was really becoming a big-4, but after this horrible choke I knew it's never going to happen. Murray is too far from the big 3.
Click to expand...
It was after the Wim 13 final win more like.
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
To me, 'high quality match' refers to one where all the different skillsets of tennis are on show consistently and at high level

Certain implications flow logically out of that as a premise. Particularly on fast court, the serve can't be highest calibre. If it is, it pushes all the other skillsets into the background. Never heard anyone say Sampras-Ivanisevic is the greatest match ever

The whole is not the sum of its parts where high quality match goes, and I prefer matches that showcase court skills in particular (that is, baseline rallies, net play and passing), returning after that and lastly, the serve

Other, major confounding factor is drama vs quality. Lots of matches that were very close or/and dramatic but had lulls in play from one or the other player. The '80 Wimbledon final is an example. It makes matches more memorable and thus, more likely to be praised highly than one with very even play. I'd say the even level match is higher quality

ForehandCross said:
If it's hard to compare eras ,what of the 20th century?
Click to expand...

Its not particularly hard. Its harder to compare matches across playing style and surfaces

2 big servers on fast court can have high quality match, 2 consistent baseliners on slow court can have high quality match.... comparing them for quality though is near impossible and any judgment is probably more a reflection of the judge's tastes then how the matches compare

dividing by surface makes it easier, but is confounded by playing style. For example, modern baseline grass matches are easier to compare to hard court matches between baseliners from the '90s than it is 2 serve-volleyers on grass

ForehandCross said:
What is the one match you watched that you deem to be of the highest quality?
Click to expand...

Isner-Mahut, '10 Wimby first round
Kidding :)

I'll skip over the 'you can't just pick 1' speech - obviously its true, but when has that ever stopped us fans from trying anyway?

Borg-Gerulaitis, '77 Wimby semi
No lulls in play, high quality from top to bottom 5 sets. Vitas at net vs Borg on the pass is the best of it, but even the other way round is up there. There's at least a dozen points that would be play of the day for any other match... here its common place

Some others that are up there -

Rafter-Agassi, '00 Wimby semi
The Rafter at net vs Agassi on pass is the best match up of its kind I've seen - both of the highest calibre. The baseline stuff is fairly mundane though

Edberg-Becker, '90 Wimby final
The volleying is flawless, especially from Edberg, with bulk being regulation volleys but sufficient number of challengingly low ones. Passing has to be perfect to cope... both manage to gain competitive counter-play

On carpet, Agassi-Edberg, '90 Year End Championship final
this match everything. Agassi returns as powerfully as imaginable - it looks like he's the one attacking and the serve-volleying Edberg is the one defending. And Edberg manages somehow to control volleys
Baseline play has everything, with bulk being completely open court, attacking stuff... both guys running each other corner to corner, both moving like the wind. The neutral play is good too, with Agassi looking to overpoweringly breakdown Edberg BH-BH
Finally, Agassi comes to net a lot for good measure (he has as many volleying winners as Edberg)... all out attacking, very fast paced, all court match

Edberg-Noah, '86 YEC round robin is similar match, sans the very high level baseline play. A thriller with no lulls

Forget-Sampras, 91 Paris final is the most balanced match I know of. If I had to pick a match to showcase all elements of tennis, this would be it

Lendl-McEnroe, '85 Antwerp final is my favourite hard court match
There's a set each of one sweeping the other away - so you get to see both players at dominant best, without the one coming up short playing badly
And 2 very competitive sets (despite the scoreline) with both at near their best. Would have expected Mac to come out on top with that going on

Djokovic-Nadal, '12 Aus final
not everyone's cup of tea. crazy degree of physicality and not-letting up for a second from both players. Not an even match... Djoko has run of play most of the time. His beat down play would have overrun most anyone else and Nadal hanging tough regardless

Wilander-Lendl, '88 US Open final
Again, not everyone's cup of tea. There are slow parts, less than usual for the pair, but not small by a normal standard. Its a very complex match of strategy and tactics - stay back or come in? if stay back, beat down or outlast? slice or top spin? lead with BH or FH? Where to serve, where to approach, even where to volley... no obvious answers for either player. And quality is high on whole - Lendl does make a mess of things in forecourt

Lendl-McEnroe '84 French final
high quality top to bottom - Mac on the volley, Lendl on the pass and Lendl's beat down baseline play

Nadal-Coria, '05 Rome final for best classic clay court match
I know you know this one... for physicality, consistency from both for prolonged match and outstanding defence. And about as dead even as possible

Nadal-Federer, '06 Rome final
Federer attacking, Nadal bossing him from the back, Fed BH holding up so despite being bossed, more or less keeping match on his racquet and Nadal defending like the dickens

Match Stats/Report - Nadal vs Federer, Rome final 2006

Rafael Nadal beat Roger Federer 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5) in the Rome final 2006 on clay A couple of weeks earlier, Nadal had defeated Federer in the final at Monte Carlo...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Nadal-Djokovic, '08 Hamburg semi
Similar to above... the pair's best on clay
---

What are your favourites?

I'd also like to hear from @ibbi and the @The Green Mile on this
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Waspsting said:
To me, 'high quality match' refers to one where all the different skillsets of tennis are on show consistently and at high level

Certain implications flow logically out of that as a premise. Particularly on fast court, the serve can't be highest calibre. If it is, it pushes all the other skillsets into the background. Never heard anyone say Sampras-Ivanisevic is the greatest match ever

The whole is not the sum of its parts where high quality match goes, and I prefer matches that showcase court skills in particular (that is, baseline rallies, net play and passing), returning after that and lastly, the serve

Other, major confounding factor is drama vs quality. Lots of matches that were very close or/and dramatic but had lulls in play from one or the other player. The '80 Wimbledon final is an example. It makes matches more memorable and thus, more likely to be praised highly than one with very even play. I'd say the even level match is higher quality



Its not particularly hard. Its harder to compare matches across playing style and surfaces

2 big servers on fast court can have high quality match, 2 consistent baseliners on slow court can have high quality match.... comparing them for quality though is near impossible and any judgment is probably more a reflection of the judge's tastes then how the matches compare

dividing by surface makes it easier, but is confounded by playing style. For example, modern baseline grass matches are easier to compare to hard court matches between baseliners from the '90s than it is 2 serve-volleyers on grass



Isner-Mahut, '10 Wimby first round
Kidding :)

I'll skip over the 'you can't just pick 1' speech - obviously its true, but when has that ever stopped us fans from trying anyway?

Borg-Gerulaitis, '77 Wimby semi
No lulls in play, high quality from top to bottom 5 sets. Vitas at net vs Borg on the pass is the best of it, but even the other way round is up there. There's at least a dozen points that would be play of the day for any other match... here its common place

Some others that are up there -

Rafter-Agassi, '00 Wimby semi
The Rafter at net vs Agassi on pass is the best match up of its kind I've seen - both of the highest calibre. The baseline stuff is fairly mundane though

Edberg-Becker, '90 Wimby final
The volleying is flawless, especially from Edberg, with bulk being regulation volleys but sufficient number of challengingly low ones. Passing has to be perfect to cope... both manage to gain competitive counter-play

On carpet, Agassi-Edberg, '90 Year End Championship final
this match everything. Agassi returns as powerfully as imaginable - it looks like he's the one attacking and the serve-volleying Edberg is the one defending. And Edberg manages somehow to control volleys
Baseline play has everything, with bulk being completely open court, attacking stuff... both guys running each other corner to corner, both moving like the wind. The neutral play is good too, with Agassi looking to overpoweringly breakdown Edberg BH-BH
Finally, Agassi comes to net a lot for good measure (he has as many volleying winners as Edberg)... all out attacking, very fast paced, all court match

Edberg-Noah, '86 YEC round robin is similar match, sans the very high level baseline play. A thriller with no lulls

Forget-Sampras, 91 Paris final is the most balanced match I know of. If I had to pick a match to showcase all elements of tennis, this would be it

Lendl-McEnroe, '85 Antwerp final is my favourite hard court match
There's a set each of one sweeping the other away - so you get to see both players at dominant best, without the one coming up short playing badly
And 2 very competitive sets (despite the scoreline) with both at near their best. Would have expected Mac to come out on top with that going on

Djokovic-Nadal, '12 Aus final
not everyone's cup of tea. crazy degree of physicality and not-letting up for a second from both players. Not an even match... Djoko has run of play most of the time. His beat down play would have overrun most anyone else and Nadal hanging tough regardless

Wilander-Lendl, '88 US Open final
Again, not everyone's cup of tea. There are slow parts, less than usual for the pair, but not small by a normal standard. Its a very complex match of strategy and tactics - stay back or come in? if stay back, beat down or outlast? slice or top spin? lead with BH or FH? Where to serve, where to approach, even where to volley... no obvious answers for either player. And quality is high on whole - Lendl does make a mess of things in forecourt

Lendl-McEnroe '84 French final
high quality top to bottom - Mac on the volley, Lendl on the pass and Lendl's beat down baseline play

Nadal-Coria, '05 Rome final for best classic clay court match
I know you know this one... for physicality, consistency from both for prolonged match and outstanding defence. And about as dead even as possible

Nadal-Federer, '06 Rome final
Federer attacking, Nadal bossing him from the back, Fed BH holding up so despite being bossed, more or less keeping match on his racquet and Nadal defending like the dickens

Match Stats/Report - Nadal vs Federer, Rome final 2006

Rafael Nadal beat Roger Federer 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5) in the Rome final 2006 on clay A couple of weeks earlier, Nadal had defeated Federer in the final at Monte Carlo...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Nadal-Djokovic, '08 Hamburg semi
Similar to above... the pair's best on clay
---

What are your favourites?

I'd also like to hear from @ibbi and the @The Green Mile on this
Click to expand...

Personally , emotional attachment matters more. I love 2007 WB F. There are some shanks ,and stretches of error prone play but I love how Nadal fights, though he loses , I like the match way more because of his attitude.

Of course I also love Thiem Djokovic 2019 WTF and Nadal-Thiem 2018 USO .

2013 Wawa-Djokovic is up there as well. Personally also like 2013 USO SF between them.



But if I try to not be biased, purely in terms of quality, personally I think 2009 AO final had me gasping when I first watched it. I knew the result, I knew the score line and yet not for a moment I think I was bored. Personally think the apart from the last stretch it was the most quality match to watch even when I knew the results.


I have never entirely finished AO 2012. But it was awesome too.

Rome 2005 ,Rome 2006, Rome 2007 (the semi vs Davydenko) are great.

I haven't watched Hamburg 2008 SF in full would love to watch it.
 
The Green Mile

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
@Waspsting Interesting outlook on what makes a high quality match, not too sure I agree with it, IMO a serve dominated match where the returner is helpless for the majority of return games is just as brilliant as a bruising base line match. Which is why I think Sampras/Becker 96 Hannover is a top match for me quality wise, Sampras/Agassi 01 USO QF is another example. A more extreme example would be Karlovic/Fed Basel 14, but that's really pushing it (Ivo served aces 39% of the time, easily the highest % against Fed). Wawrinka/Gasquet FO 13 is up there, better than the infamous SF between Djokodal. 77 W SF is a nice pick, I got that match on DVD a number of years back because of the hype I kept hearing about it. Kuerten vs Mirnyi USO 01, Kuerten winning a quality thriller....

My favourite matches are a mixture though, includes bias for the player, drama, quality, etc. Davydenko/Nadal Doha 2010 will probably always be in my top ten, same with Fed/Srichaphan Basel 06. I adored the Simon/Djoker AO 16 match for example, probably one of the few who did.
 
Rebel-I.N.S

Rebel-I.N.S

Hall of Fame
Murray should’ve won this.

But Novak should’ve taken one of those BPs in the final game of Wimbledon 2013.

I can live with how it played out.
 
B

BigThreeForever

New User
@Waspsting Would you include the 2018 Wimbledon semifinal between Nadal and Djokovic to be in that list of best ever? Owen Lewis (@tennisnation on Twitter) stated that "Unlike virtually every other match on this list (and virtually every match in general, really), I can’t point to a set that was dull or average quality or markedly worse than the others" and that "It’s perhaps the best individual sample of pure skill in the modern era of men’s tennis you can find—Djokovic and Nadal forced each other to hit every single shot in the book, then proceeded to do exactly that over five hours and 15 minutes", so seeing what you thought about that match.
 
Mainad

Mainad

Bionic Poster
One of my most painful and frustrating memories of Murray's career. Had he converted just 1 of those 5 championship points he would have maintained the momentum he had gained against Djokovic after beating him in the US Open final and would maybe have got into his head a little ahead of their next clash in the 2013 AO final. Plus it would have made him, rather than Djokovic, the Shanghai Goat with 4 titles to Djokovic's 3. :(
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
BigThreeForever said:
@Waspsting Would you include the 2018 Wimbledon semifinal between Nadal and Djokovic to be in that list of best ever? Owen Lewis (@tennisnation on Twitter) stated that "Unlike virtually every other match on this list (and virtually every match in general, really), I can’t point to a set that was dull or average quality or markedly worse than the others" and that "It’s perhaps the best individual sample of pure skill in the modern era of men’s tennis you can find—Djokovic and Nadal forced each other to hit every single shot in the book, then proceeded to do exactly that over five hours and 15 minutes", so seeing what you thought about that match.
Click to expand...

Hi, and welcome to the forum

You've done me a solid with your first post. I couldn't remember where I'd posted this list of favourite matches and had been looking for it off and on for about 2 years

2018 Wimby, Djokovic vs Nadal - I would put it up there with the matches on the list. I wouldn't put it up for Greatest Ever myself, though anybody who does wouldn't get any arguments from me

I have two choices for Greatest Match Ever

'77 Wimby, Borg-Gerulaitis
'89 Davis Cup, Becker-Agassi

And I lean towards the Davis Cup one

The rest of the list I put together as particularly great, and divided by surfaces. Grass would have the the most of any surface - this one, the finals of '08, '92, '01 - i'd rate all of those higher than some of the matches I've listed for the other surfaces

But '77 Wimby and '00 Wimby Rafter-Agassi and the '90 Wimby final.... I like that little bit more, think were that little bit more high of quality and none of them suffer for tension and lulls than these matches

The description you've quoted stressing uniformity of quality... very much applies to '77 match, a little less for the other 2

One thing about the '18 match was that it wasn't an even contest

Djokovic wins 50.5% of the points, serving 46% of them (that's not too important)
Games having break points - Djoko 12, Nadal 6 (this is where you see the considerable superiority)

That's not overly biased by any one set. Djoko basically has noticably better of things almost throughout (unlike some of the other matches I've listed)

Djoko serves better. I think returns better too. Nadal stronger in rallies - that's where the magic is. But overcoming handicap on both serve and return on grass... that's very, very difficult

Do you see a pinned to the top of form titled "Match Stats/Reports - Catalogue" ?
You can find all the matches I've statted there

Here's a link for the '18 Wimby Djokovic-Nadal one
Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Nadal, Wimbledon semi-final 2018 | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
 
B

BigThreeForever

New User
Waspsting said:
Hi, and welcome to the forum

You've done me a solid with your first post. I couldn't remember where I'd posted this list of favourite matches and had been looking for it off and on for about 2 years

2018 Wimby, Djokovic vs Nadal - I would put it up there with the matches on the list. I wouldn't put it up for Greatest Ever myself, though anybody who does wouldn't get any arguments from me

I have two choices for Greatest Match Ever

'77 Wimby, Borg-Gerulaitis
'89 Davis Cup, Becker-Agassi

And I lean towards the Davis Cup one

The rest of the list I put together as particularly great, and divided by surfaces. Grass would have the the most of any surface - this one, the finals of '08, '92, '01 - i'd rate all of those higher than some of the matches I've listed for the other surfaces

But '77 Wimby and '00 Wimby Rafter-Agassi and the '90 Wimby final.... I like that little bit more, think were that little bit more high of quality and none of them suffer for tension and lulls than these matches

The description you've quoted stressing uniformity of quality... very much applies to '77 match, a little less for the other 2

One thing about the '18 match was that it wasn't an even contest

Djokovic wins 50.5% of the points, serving 46% of them (that's not too important)
Games having break points - Djoko 12, Nadal 6 (this is where you see the considerable superiority)

That's not overly biased by any one set. Djoko basically has noticably better of things almost throughout (unlike some of the other matches I've listed)

Djoko serves better. I think returns better too. Nadal stronger in rallies - that's where the magic is. But overcoming handicap on both serve and return on grass... that's very, very difficult

Do you see a pinned to the top of form titled "Match Stats/Reports - Catalogue" ?
You can find all the matches I've statted there

Here's a link for the '18 Wimby Djokovic-Nadal one
Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Nadal, Wimbledon semi-final 2018 | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
Click to expand...
I've read through the list quite a bit and find all of the stats fascinating to read alongside the great reports.

Is there any singular match or group of matches that you would consider to be the single greatest or best of the bunch in the Big Three era?
 
A

Angrybirdstar

Rookie
BigThreeForever said:
Owen Lewis (@tennisnation on Twitter) stated that "Unlike virtually every other match on this list (and virtually every match in general, really), I can’t point to a set that was dull or average quality or markedly worse than the others" and that "It’s perhaps the best individual sample of pure skill in the modern era of men’s tennis you can find—Djokovic and Nadal forced each other to hit every single shot in the book, then proceeded to do exactly that over five hours and 15 minutes", so seeing what you thought about that match.
Click to expand...
out of curiosity, where did Owen write this?
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
BigThreeForever said:
I've read through the list quite a bit and find all of the stats fascinating to read alongside the great reports.

Is there any singular match or group of matches that you would consider to be the single greatest or best of the bunch in the Big Three era?
Click to expand...

My favourite is '09 Aus semi between Nadal and Verdasco
4 sets of edge of your seat action. The fifth is a let down from there - 5th sets usually are - but at least things stay tense and way Verdasco's played, one would be wary that he's quite capable of a winning bolt out of the blue

On grass - '18 Wimby semi Djokovic-Nadal, the '08 & '07 Wimby finals Federer-Nadal.

Lot of other good ones, but those 3 stand a cut above

On clay - '05 Rome Nadal-Coria, '06 Rome Nadal-Federer, '08 Hamburg Nadal-Djokovic, '13 French Nadal-Djokovic, '05 French Nadal-Puerta, '11 Rome Djokovic-Murray

I'm probably forgetting something. Lot of good Nadal-Djokovic matches. '21 Rome is good one. Thiem's been in a few great matches with Nadal and his '19 Madrid match with Djoko's a great one too

On hard courts - '12 Aus Djokovic-Nadal, '19 YEC Thiem-Djokovic, '11 US Djokovic-Federer, '05 Aus Safin-Federer

'09 Aus final Nadal-Federer is an interesting one. That 5th set is such a let down as to tarnish it overall substantially, but otherwise, its as good a match as I've seen. Combo of first 4 sets and the last of their '17 final would make it a very strong GOAT contender match. Pity. Even something just decent like the semi would have done it

'13 Shanghai Djokovic-del Potro should be up there, but I tend to think of that more as a first class showing from Djoko than a great match

Some great short matches too
'06 Dubai Nadal-Federer is excellent. '17 Madrid Nadal-Thiem also

What are some your favourites?
 
B

BigThreeForever

New User
Waspsting said:
My favourite is '09 Aus semi between Nadal and Verdasco
4 sets of edge of your seat action. The fifth is a let down from there - 5th sets usually are - but at least things stay tense and way Verdasco's played, one would be wary that he's quite capable of a winning bolt out of the blue

On grass - '18 Wimby semi Djokovic-Nadal, the '08 & '07 Wimby finals Federer-Nadal.

Lot of other good ones, but those 3 stand a cut above

On clay - '05 Rome Nadal-Coria, '06 Rome Nadal-Federer, '08 Hamburg Nadal-Djokovic, '13 French Nadal-Djokovic, '05 French Nadal-Puerta, '11 Rome Djokovic-Murray

I'm probably forgetting something. Lot of good Nadal-Djokovic matches. '21 Rome is good one. Thiem's been in a few great matches with Nadal and his '19 Madrid match with Djoko's a great one too

On hard courts - '12 Aus Djokovic-Nadal, '19 YEC Thiem-Djokovic, '11 US Djokovic-Federer, '05 Aus Safin-Federer

'09 Aus final Nadal-Federer is an interesting one. That 5th set is such a let down as to tarnish it overall substantially, but otherwise, its as good a match as I've seen. Combo of first 4 sets and the last of their '17 final would make it a very strong GOAT contender match. Pity. Even something just decent like the semi would have done it

'13 Shanghai Djokovic-del Potro should be up there, but I tend to think of that more as a first class showing from Djoko than a great match

Some great short matches too
'06 Dubai Nadal-Federer is excellent. '17 Madrid Nadal-Thiem also

What are some your favourites?
Click to expand...
Pretty good list that I'd agree with. My favorites are probably the 2018 Wimbledon semifinal, and the fourth round of the 2013 AO between Djokovic and Wawrinka, because of the shotmaking, though it was a messy match. 2012 Australian Open final was also brutal and a test of athleticism.

For best of three I'd have to say the 2011 Miami final and 2012 Shanghai final. Recently I'd say the Miami encounter between Alcaraz and Sinner, and the Madrid encounter between Djokovic and Alcaraz, along with their 23 Cincinnati encounter.

Best matches that had potential to be more awesome than they were are the 22 Roland Garros semifinal between Nadal and Zverev and the 23 Roland Garros semifinal between Djokovic and Alcaraz, two years in a row robbed of a full potential blockbuster at Roland Garros.

Would you say that the 2012 Australian Open final was the most brutal, physical and or athletic match ever played, or would that be another other match such as the 1992 US Open semifinal between Edberg and Chang, or 2010 Wimbledon first round between Isner and Mahut?
 
Last edited:
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
BigThreeForever said:
My favorites are probably the 2018 Wimbledon semifinal, and the fourth round of the 2013 AO between Djokovic and Wawrinka, because of the shotmaking, though it was a messy match. 2012 Australian Open final was also brutal and a test of athleticism.

For best of three I'd have to say the 2011 Miami final and 2012 Shanghai final. Recently I'd say the Miami encounter between Alcaraz and Sinner, and the Madrid encounter between Djokovic and Alcaraz, along with their 23 Cincinnati encounter.

Best matches that had potential to be more awesome than they were are the 22 Roland Garros semifinal between Nadal and Zverev and the 23 Roland Garros semifinal between Djokovic and Alcaraz, two years in a row robbed of a full potential blockbuster at Roland Garros.
Click to expand...

Nice list

Have you seen the '15 Canada final between Murray and Djokovic?

That one, along with this Shanghai match, stands out as the best of their finals. Very low bar but they'd be good matches by any standard
It looks to me like you value tension at the end highly? The Canada match has that at the end (among other times), compared to at the end of hte second set here, with Murray folding in the third

BigThreeForever said:
Would you say that the 2012 Australian Open final was the most brutal, physical and or athletic match ever played, or would that be another other match such as the 1992 US Open semifinal between Edberg and Chang, or 2010 Wimbledon first round between Isner and Mahut?
Click to expand...

With a caveat, yes and along with the '05 Rome final

When I think of 'brutal, phsycial, atheltic match', I tend to think of baseline slugfests. Not serve-volley or half-serve-volley stuff like the gruelling Edberg-Chang match. 3-4 shot exchanges with 1 guy at net can't compare to 10+ shot exchanges on baseline

'12 is brutal. I think '05 Rome is up there with it. On clay, you can ease up a bit on the intensity of hitting, without fear of getting pounced on (something Djoko doesn't do in the Aus match), but still

I haven't seen the Isner-Mahut match. Has anyone actually seen it? I assume its a serve-bot fest

Caveat - serve-bot fest or not, I don't see how it can't be more physical and brutal than '12 Aus or '05 Rome or anything else, just on sheer lenght of time alone
I'll bet those guys' arms in particular were a lot closer to falling off than any part of Djokovic, Nadal or Coria's body were
 
B

BigThreeForever

New User
Waspsting said:
Nice list

Have you seen the '15 Canada final between Murray and Djokovic?

That one, along with this Shanghai match, stands out as the best of their finals. Very low bar but they'd be good matches by any standard
It looks to me like you value tension at the end highly? The Canada match has that at the end (among other times), compared to at the end of hte second set here, with Murray folding in the third



With a caveat, yes and along with the '05 Rome final

When I think of 'brutal, phsycial, atheltic match', I tend to think of baseline slugfests. Not serve-volley or half-serve-volley stuff like the gruelling Edberg-Chang match. 3-4 shot exchanges with 1 guy at net can't compare to 10+ shot exchanges on baseline

'12 is brutal. I think '05 Rome is up there with it. On clay, you can ease up a bit on the intensity of hitting, without fear of getting pounced on (something Djoko doesn't do in the Aus match), but still

I haven't seen the Isner-Mahut match. Has anyone actually seen it? I assume its a serve-bot fest

Caveat - serve-bot fest or not, I don't see how it can't be more physical and brutal than '12 Aus or '05 Rome or anything else, just on sheer lenght of time alone
I'll bet those guys' arms in particular were a lot closer to falling off than any part of Djokovic, Nadal or Coria's body were
Click to expand...
I saw the highlights of the 2015 Canada Open final between them, it was pretty good, and a good win over basically one of the best versions of Djokovic

It's definitely hard to determine the most brutal matches, but AO 12 and Rome 05 are definitely the two most. But there are other less known matches such as Mayer v. Souza in the 2015 Davis Cup which went on for almost seven hours or the first round match between Santoro and Clement in the 2004 Roland Garros. I know McEnroe also had multiple long matches that lasted five to over six hours, but those were physically easier on the body back then compared to the brutal baseline grinding of today's matches.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Waspsting said:
Nice list

Have you seen the '15 Canada final between Murray and Djokovic?

That one, along with this Shanghai match, stands out as the best of their finals. Very low bar but they'd be good matches by any standard
It looks to me like you value tension at the end highly? The Canada match has that at the end (among other times), compared to at the end of hte second set here, with Murray folding in the third



With a caveat, yes and along with the '05 Rome final

When I think of 'brutal, phsycial, atheltic match', I tend to think of baseline slugfests. Not serve-volley or half-serve-volley stuff like the gruelling Edberg-Chang match. 3-4 shot exchanges with 1 guy at net can't compare to 10+ shot exchanges on baseline

'12 is brutal. I think '05 Rome is up there with it. On clay, you can ease up a bit on the intensity of hitting, without fear of getting pounced on (something Djoko doesn't do in the Aus match), but still

I haven't seen the Isner-Mahut match. Has anyone actually seen it? I assume its a serve-bot fest

Caveat - serve-bot fest or not, I don't see how it can't be more physical and brutal than '12 Aus or '05 Rome or anything else, just on sheer lenght of time alone
I'll bet those guys' arms in particular were a lot closer to falling off than any part of Djokovic, Nadal or Coria's body were
Click to expand...
That was the Murray we should have seen vs Djokovic more in 2015 and 2016 in BO5 :censored:
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
RS said:
That was the Murray we should have seen (referring to 2015 Canada final) vs Djokovic more in 2015 and 2016 in BO5 :censored:
Click to expand...

would have made things more fun

Attributing things to "mental factors" is usually a cop out, a way of saying "I don't know what happened but I'm going to try to sound like I do"

With Murray and Djokovic, don't know what else to put down how things played out so often other than mental factors

Whatever mental factors go into maintaining level, not having dips and lapses is particularly crucial for a player of Murray's style. Counter-puncher who goes off on error-benders sounds like the dumbest of things

With Murray and Djokovic, so may of their matches - not just at Slams and Australian Open - they're even stevens for a good long while... and then Murray drops like a stone. Don't think he did that against too many others, but then again, probably not too many players that could hold even-stevens with him for good long while to begin with
 
Phenomenal

Phenomenal

Professional
Waspsting said:
My favourite is '09 Aus semi between Nadal and Verdasco
4 sets of edge of your seat action. The fifth is a let down from there - 5th sets usually are - but at least things stay tense and way Verdasco's played, one would be wary that he's quite capable of a winning bolt out of the blue

On grass - '18 Wimby semi Djokovic-Nadal, the '08 & '07 Wimby finals Federer-Nadal.

Lot of other good ones, but those 3 stand a cut above

On clay - '05 Rome Nadal-Coria, '06 Rome Nadal-Federer, '08 Hamburg Nadal-Djokovic, '13 French Nadal-Djokovic, '05 French Nadal-Puerta, '11 Rome Djokovic-Murray

I'm probably forgetting something. Lot of good Nadal-Djokovic matches. '21 Rome is good one. Thiem's been in a few great matches with Nadal and his '19 Madrid match with Djoko's a great one too

On hard courts - '12 Aus Djokovic-Nadal, '19 YEC Thiem-Djokovic, '11 US Djokovic-Federer, '05 Aus Safin-Federer

'09 Aus final Nadal-Federer is an interesting one. That 5th set is such a let down as to tarnish it overall substantially, but otherwise, its as good a match as I've seen. Combo of first 4 sets and the last of their '17 final would make it a very strong GOAT contender match. Pity. Even something just decent like the semi would have done it

'13 Shanghai Djokovic-del Potro should be up there, but I tend to think of that more as a first class showing from Djoko than a great match

Some great short matches too
'06 Dubai Nadal-Federer is excellent. '17 Madrid Nadal-Thiem also

What are some your favourites?
Click to expand...
Nadal -Thiem Madrid 17 is a great match. Almost all of Nadal Thiem matches are amazing maybe apart from couple RG. 2020 ATP finals RR incredible straight set match to me.
Djokovic-Thiem matches are great too.
 
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