If ATP pros use Gut/Poly, why do rec 3.5 and 4.0 players use Poly/Poly ?

StringGuruMRT · Nov 17, 2021

Bambooman said:
The frame is supported during this time. Pretty sure some people have strung mains and paused for 5 minutes before doing crosses.

This is not just me. There's plenty of folks who do it with no problems.

Sounds like you may have cut out a lot of expensive gut for no reason, that you are desperate to justify.

But you do you boo.

Plenty of people who have decades of stringing experience continually say this is not a good practice too. I find it humorous that garage stringers ignore advice from people who have strung for the players those same people worship, and do it for a living to feed their families.

As far as cutting out expensive gut, I do it all the time for my clients. They've never asked me to only cut out one side of their string, and if they did I would have no problem telling them why I won't do it. And because they trust my expertise (from passing that "irrelevant" exam and over 30 years of stringing), they wouldn't argue with me.

AVSH · Nov 17, 2021

Vicious49 said:
I was thinking Babolat VS or Wilson. I was going to string each UT with 1 and see which I preferred. So far I've only used multi on the mains of my VC95. I've kept the tension even on the multi and poly crosses because I wanted to lower the launch angle a bit anyways. If I was to do this on the UT where I wouldn't mind a bit higher launch angle I will probably go 52/48.

I guess the other question is - I usually go 17g with poly, multi, or syn gut. Should I stick with 17g on the gut or should I go with 16g to make it last longer? I'm thinking the 17g poly will go dead before I snap either 17 or 16g gut so it probably won't matter much.

In a blind test, I couldn't tell the difference between 17g or 16g of the same string at the same tension. Not that im very bad or very good but approached it with a blank slate. Also remember youre only using a half set so whatever perceived "benefit" with each gauge is reduced by half. Personally I do 16g gut with pre stretch and 17 gauge poly. Figured if there are benefits to 6 gauge being thicker it applies to the gut, and whatever benefits are there for 17g applies to poly. End of the day comes down to the player not the equipment

AVSH · Nov 17, 2021

String your mains. Then string your crosses. Then cut out your crosses. Your racket is now in the exact state you started with after finishing the mains. Because pulling tension across 16 or 18 mains has not made any impact what so ever on the mains.
We are truly in the multiverse.

cortado · Nov 17, 2021

StringGuruMRT said:
Yeah on the latest TW podcast they had the lead string guy at Head, and he talked about how having hybrid string jobs stress the racquet unevenly, and lead to some deformation over time because the multi and mono strings hold tension differently, but cutting only the crosses out and not touching the mains is fine? Lets just forget about the fact that if you were taking the USRSA MRT exam and cut out only the crosses on broken strings, the tester would probably not let you continue with the rest practical exam and fail you on the spot. But that's OK, you do you boo...

Is there anything that can be done to minimise stress on the head long-term from hybrid string jobs? Eg is it better to string without a tension differential between the gut and poly etc?

antony · Nov 17, 2021

cortado said:
Is there anything that can be done to minimise stress on the head long-term from hybrid string jobs? Eg is it better to string without a tension differential between the gut and poly etc?

Doesn’t matter imo because different materials will lose tension in differing amounts. Even if you start at like 50 gut and 60 poly and assume they both settle at 45 you’ll have a differential during the time they settle. I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Just use your frames. I don’t baby my frames

StringGuruMRT · Nov 17, 2021

cortado said:
Is there anything that can be done to minimise stress on the head long-term from hybrid string jobs? Eg is it better to string without a tension differential between the gut and poly etc?

I had never heard of this before I listened to the podcast, but it makes sense. The best course of action is to probably just not let them stay in there for a really long time. I would also imagine that the effect would be less if the multi in the hybrid is the crosses.

taylor15 · Nov 17, 2021

Vicious49 said:
I was thinking Babolat VS or Wilson. I was going to string each UT with 1 and see which I preferred. So far I've only used multi on the mains of my VC95. I've kept the tension even on the multi and poly crosses because I wanted to lower the launch angle a bit anyways. If I was to do this on the UT where I wouldn't mind a bit higher launch angle I will probably go 52/48.

I guess the other question is - I usually go 17g with poly, multi, or syn gut. Should I stick with 17g on the gut or should I go with 16g to make it last longer? I'm thinking the 17g poly will go dead before I snap either 17 or 16g gut so it probably won't matter much.

I like your plan. I have some black vs I got in a trade, but I think I'm going to trade it for some natural at my local shop b/c he's happy to trade and I don't want to try colored first as it's more firm (I think).

I am going to stick with 17g. I want to keep variables down and also like 17g strings as a whole.

blai212 · Nov 17, 2021

there are varying opinions whether it is good/bad to just restring crosses. Many traditional stringers will say that it is harmful to the racquet but I have done it plenty of times without a problem. The same way racquet manufacturers tell you to replace frames every 3-5 years is recommended but it’s not gonna kill u. I dont even mount my frame before cutting out the crosses and there’s no problem. The good: I mostly do it when my shaped poly mains are wearing smooth so I restring crosses using other side of the string bed. I like using low tension so if my string bed starts becoming a trampoline then I string crosses a few lbs higher and the racquet feels rejuvenated! The bad: Although I did claim that the strings feel rejuvenated, it’s not long before the feel of used poly comes back. It is good to restring just the crosses if the mains show very little wear/notching and you absolutely hate the tension/feel of the string bed and believe that it can be corrected with just the replacement of different cross string and/or at different tension. Usually the best course of action is to wait until string bed is unplayable and restring the whole racquet. I would guess that any stringer willing to just replace the cross will charge full labor anyways and a fresh string job will undoubtedly feel better than just replacing crosses.

Bambooman · Nov 17, 2021

StringGuruMRT said:
Plenty of people who have decades of stringing experience continually say this is not a good practice too. I find it humorous that garage stringers ignore advice from people who have strung for the players those same people worship, and do it for a living to feed their families.

As far as cutting out expensive gut, I do it all the time for my clients. They've never asked me to only cut out one side of their string, and if they did I would have no problem telling them why I won't do it. And because they trust my expertise (from passing that "irrelevant" exam and over 30 years of stringing), they wouldn't argue with me.

You do you boo. Sounds like you've got a good thing going for you making sure folks don't try to get a half price stringing job.

Nobody is ignoring your advice. They are filing it under not applicable for their situation.

StringGuruMRT · Nov 17, 2021

blai212 said:
there are varying opinions whether it is good/bad to just restring crosses. Many traditional stringers will say that it is harmful to the racquet but I have done it plenty of times without a problem. The same way racquet manufacturers tell you to replace frames every 3-5 years is recommended but it’s not gonna kill u. I dont even mount my frame before cutting out the crosses and there’s no problem. The good: I mostly do it when my shaped poly mains are wearing smooth so I restring crosses using other side of the string bed. I like using low tension so if my string bed starts becoming a trampoline then I string crosses a few lbs higher and the racquet feels rejuvenated! The bad: Although I did claim that the strings feel rejuvenated, it’s not long before the feel of used poly comes back. It is good to restring just the crosses if the mains show very little wear/notching and you absolutely hate the tension/feel of the string bed and believe that it can be corrected with just the replacement of different cross string and/or at different tension. Usually the best course of action is to wait until string bed is unplayable and restring the whole racquet. I would guess that any stringer willing to just replace the cross will charge full labor anyways and a fresh string job will undoubtedly feel better than just replacing crosses.

Just curious, what are "traditional stringers?"

StringGuruMRT · Nov 17, 2021

Bambooman said:
You do you boo. Sounds like you've got a good thing going for you making sure folks don't try to get a half price stringing job.

Nobody is ignoring your advice. They are filing it under not applicable for their situation.

Its not a half price string job though. You're still going to get charged the full price for labor. If there is any time saved it is minimal, and I'm guessing that you're providing your own strings...

Bambooman · Nov 17, 2021

StringGuruMRT said:
Its not a half price string job though. You're still going to get charged the full price for labor. If there is any time saved it is minimal, and I'm guessing that you're providing your own strings...

Which is why folks will then cave to just getting both done.

I string my own. It's amazing how you can counter myths through experimentation. Even if you are discussing things with "gurus".

antony · Nov 17, 2021

Bambooman said:
Which is why folks will then cave to just getting both done.

I string my own. It's amazing how you can counter myths through experimentation. Even if you are discussing things with "gurus".

I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal if someone wants to only restring a cross even if it may not be the best practice in my opinion due to inconsistency. If I strung myself, I’d try it out especially because I know ALU Power dies out pretty quickly

Bambooman · Nov 17, 2021

antony said:
I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal if someone wants to only restring a cross even if it may not be the best practice in my opinion due to inconsistency. If I strung myself, I’d try it out especially because I know ALU Power dies out pretty quickly

Exactly. So many people claim poly dies practically as it comes off the stringer. Imagine tossing a half set of gut every couple of sessions. Must be a lot of lawyers and doctors playing the game.

cortado · Nov 17, 2021

Bambooman said:
Exactly. So many people claim poly dies practically as it comes off the stringer. Imagine tossing a half set of gut every couple of sessions. Must be a lot of lawyers and doctors playing the game.

Personally couldn't care less about dead poly in gut/poly hybrid. The gut feels so good and dominates the string-bed. I just play the hybrid for weeks/months until the gut breaks.

Nate7-5 · Nov 17, 2021

My stringer is happy to replace my gut/poly crosses for $8 - have done it a few times with no issues. I have Klip Uncoated/PolyTour Fire 1.20 in my VC95 right now - will use it for 6-8hrs then replace them with Max Power or Lux 4g Soft (something more durable that I will use until the gut breaks or I get tired of it).

FiddlerDog · Nov 17, 2021

AVSH said:
Cool, warp your racket what do I care

Do you string rackets?
Cool, warp your racket after you're done with the mains, and about to start the crosses, on every string job you've ever done.
Exact same thing as removing crosses.

aaron_h27 · Nov 17, 2021

Cost mostly.

FiddlerDog · Nov 17, 2021

Vicious49 said:
After reading through this thread ive decided to give gut/poly a try. I normally string poly or multi/poly at 48#. If im doing gut/poly, what tension should i go for the gut mains and the poly crosses?

Try 55/50 ?
Go lower until you find it does not last

AVSH · Nov 17, 2021

FiddlerDog said:
Do you string rackets?
Cool, warp your racket after you're done with the mains, and about to start the crosses, on every string job you've ever done.
Exact same thing as removing crosses.

In case you missed it:

String your mains. Then string your crosses. Then cut out your crosses. Your racket is now in the exact state you started with after finishing the mains. Because pulling tension across 16 or 18 mains has not made any impact what so ever on the mains.
We are truly in the multiverse.

Bambooman · Nov 17, 2021

cortado said:
Personally couldn't care less about dead poly in gut/poly hybrid. The gut feels so good and dominates the string-bed. I just play the hybrid for weeks/months until the gut breaks.

How dare you.

FiddlerDog · Nov 17, 2021

AVSH said:
In case you missed it:

String your mains. Then string your crosses. Then cut out your crosses. Your racket is now in the exact state you started with after finishing the mains.

Yes, I knew you would finally get it. Basic common logic is attainable for all.
Even a blind man can see that cutting out crosses does not warp and distort your racket.
It is exactly the same as stringing mains and not yet starting the crosses. A literal 5 year old can understand this.

Bambooman · Nov 17, 2021

FiddlerDog said:
Yes, I knew you would finally get it. Basic common logic is attainable for all.
Even a blind man can see that cutting out crosses does not warp and distort your racket.
It is exactly the same as stringing mains and not yet starting the crosses. A literal 5 year old can understand this.

Does that mean we have a stringing guru under the age of five on here?

StringGuruMRT · Nov 18, 2021

Bambooman said:
Which is why folks will then cave to just getting both done.

I string my own. It's amazing how you can counter myths through experimentation. Even if you are discussing things with "gurus".

It's amazing how people who string for a couple months, and read message boards, think they are experts and can counter myths...

Bambooman · Nov 18, 2021

StringGuruMRT said:
It's amazing how people who string for a couple months, and read message boards, think they are experts and can counter myths...

Years actually and an open mind to experiment from day one.
It's more amazing that a proclaimed guru with 30 years experience would need to hear a podcast last week which finally gave an inkling that different string types would impart different frame stresses over time. Yet here you are.

I realized that immediately.

StringGuruMRT · Nov 18, 2021

Bambooman said:
Years actually and an open mind to experiment from day one.
It's more amazing that a proclaimed guru with 30 years experience would need to hear a podcast last week which finally gave an inkling that different string types would impart different frame stresses over time. Yet here you are.

I realized that immediately.

That is true. I probably should have been able to noodle that out on my own!

jmacdaununder2 · Nov 18, 2021

If you mount the frame in a six point stringing machine and then cut a cross string on an intact string job, you are - particularly if the racquet is strung at the kind of tensions that used to be more common pre the poly era i.e. 60+ - running a slight risk of a compressive fracture occurring on the outside of the frame where it contacts the four non-central mounts, regardless of the bumper guard; I wouldn't be risking this with a customer's racquet without explicit and informed prior consent.
The correct method of cutting strings out is in an expanding spiral, alternating mains and crosses, in order to release tension as evenly as possible; it's not possible to do this when removing crosses only.
I'm also surprised that more players aren't finding that the gut mains are already sawn through before the poly crosses have gone dead.

veelium · Nov 18, 2021

Honestly never felt the need to restring crosses in a gut/poly if I continuously use a racquet. Still always felt good until the gut breaks (~1-2 months).
Tried it on frame recently that I haven't used much, was ok.

I'm wondering if someone actually noticed any kind of frame warping from either stringing with hybrids or restringing just crosses?
Haven't played/strung long enough to ever notice anything myself.

AVSH · Nov 18, 2021

veelium said:
Honestly never felt the need to restring crosses in a gut/poly if I continuously use a racquet. Still always felt good until the gut breaks (~1-2 months).
Tried it on frame recently that I haven't used much, was ok.

I'm wondering if someone actually noticed any kind of frame warping from either stringing with hybrids or restringing just crosses?
Haven't played/strung long enough to ever notice anything myself.

More over time then in that moment. Bit off topic, but did a racket once one-piece stringing and did bottom to top on crosses and it cracked the racket at 2 o'clock. Definitely because it is not good practice to string bottom to top as it places uneven stress on parts of the racket that arent suppose to hold that stress unevenly.

PaulC · Nov 18, 2021

I don't see a whole lot of NexGen ATP top 50 guys using Gut/Poly...

By the time Djoker, Fed, Cilic, are gone, only Dimitrov, Nishikori, Boric remain. And after these are gone too, probably none.

And Zverev is Poly/Gut.

May be Thiem will move back to gut/poly after rehab?

Soho78 · Nov 21, 2021

Couple reasons for me. Extra power and saves my arm when TE starts to creep in.

Happi · Nov 22, 2021

For the money saved on gut by cutting out the cross poly and restring, I would calculate than I would be able to buy new frames each year if my current frame would get some small cracks (I never experieced that btw).

GummiiBear · Nov 22, 2021

For me, gut/poly setups are the economical choice. Money saved by having to get my racquet strung less often (over where I am $28 per job is considered reasonable), and in addition, now that I've given Klip Legend a try and [to my surprise] like it more than Babolat VS, that shaves a few bucks off the cost of a half set. Provided I prioritize tension maintenance in choosing my poly cross, a job lasts me roughly... 4 months? I think if I want to maximize my play I'd get it done every 3 months. I have stretched it to 5 months before, but don't think I'll be doing that again. At least, not for my main racquets (my VCP 97HDs).

I see many, many people on the courts playing with full beds of poly. A lot of Hyper-G, other miscellaneous ones. I'll occasionally see someone with a hybrid, and I don't think I've come across anyone else using gut. Though I live in an area where I'm almost certain some people stay away from gut because... cows.

stapletonj · Nov 24, 2021

FiddlerDog said:
I find the poly slices through the gut like a knife.
I never got more than 5 hours with gut/poly

I'm betting you are not using a smooth round poly, like isocream or Yonex PTP..... or you have Nadal like topspin.... or are playing in thundershowers......
gut\poly, even with the gut at 64 lbs. last me more than a month playing 4-5 times a week.... (I am a flattish hitting doubles player - 4.0)

BlueB · Nov 24, 2021

At rec level, play with whatever pleases you, as long as you are not hurting yourself.

cortado · Nov 24, 2021

stapletonj said:
I'm betting you are not using a smooth round poly, like isocream or Yonex PTP..... or you have Nadal like topspin.... or are playing in thundershowers......
gut\poly, even with the gut at 64 lbs. last me more than a month playing 4-5 times a week.... (I am a flattish hitting doubles player - 4.0)

16x19 or 18x20?

FiddlerDog · Nov 24, 2021

stapletonj said:
I'm betting you are not using a smooth round poly, like isocream or Yonex PTP..... or you have Nadal like topspin.... or are playing in thundershowers......
gut\poly, even with the gut at 64 lbs. last me more than a month playing 4-5 times a week.... (I am a flattish hitting doubles player - 4.0)

Correct.
Volkl Cyclone Tour 16.
Very shaped and edgey.

I used string savers this time, and they work.

I am switching to YPTP or Cyber Flash

stapletonj · Nov 24, 2021

cortado said:
16x19 or 18x20?

16X19 yonex vcore 100

alexg · Nov 25, 2021

I play gut poly almost exclusively, because it’s the best combo of spin potential, controlled power, and economics for me. I can play 15-25 hours, and even more with softer & denser frames, before the gut snaps.

I have replaced the poly crosses while keeping the mains occasionally, not because the poly had died, but simply because I was experimenting with a new poly and did not like it. That hasn’t created any problem. Replacing the crosses with yptp to land back on my usual vs / yptp yielded a stringbed that feels just the same as a straightforward, from scratch string job. I use a 6 point mounting machine, and it feels safe. I keep hearing that it’s not safe; I am all ears if someone has a Cartesian reason why this is dangerous for the frame, or results in a defective stringbed.

Power Player · Nov 25, 2021

SinneGOAT said:
Gosen OG Sheep Micro mains/ Poly cross is what works. Feels just a tad lower powered than natural gut at the same tension, great tension maintenance and comfort with 1/10 the price. One reel is the price of one pack of VS Touch.

It works for like 4 hours and then breaks..lol. I wish it lasted longer.

SinneGOAT · Nov 25, 2021

Power Player said:
It works for like 4 hours and then breaks..lol. I wish it lasted longer.

Yes, the durability is a little low on the syn gut, however I’m not a string breaker. I’ve played with mine for over 6 hours in a youtek ig extreme mp and they are still holding up, I’ll be it quite notched.

FiddlerDog · Nov 26, 2021

alexg said:
I keep hearing that it’s not safe; I am all ears if someone has a Cartesian reason why this is dangerous for the frame, or results in a defective stringbed.

There is no logic or science. Just mythology that is parroted over the generations.
When you are stringing a new racket and only the mains are complete, no one is hysterical the scare stories of bent frames. Same exact racket state every time you do a string job.

AVSH · Nov 26, 2021

FiddlerDog said:
There is no logic or science. Just mythology that is parroted over the generations.
When you are stringing a new racket and only the mains are complete, no one is hysterical the scare stories of bent frames. Same exact racket state every time you do a string job.

Why do you keep saying this? A strung racket that comes back has been used and played with for hours. Which is by fact not the exact state as you stringing every time.

Happi · Nov 26, 2021

AVSH said:
Why do you keep saying this?

Because it is the truth and logical. I have been cutting out crosses for years (mounted on the 6pt stringing machine) and replace with new. Never had a single crack. Its totally safe IMO.

AVSH · Nov 26, 2021

Happi said:
Because it is the truth and logical. I have been cutting out crosses for years (mounted on the 6pt stringing machine) and replace with new. Never had a single crack. Its totally safe IMO.

Thank you for only using part of what I said and not replying to the whole thing.

Bambooman · Nov 26, 2021

AVSH said:
Why do you keep saying this? A strung racket that comes back has been used and played with for hours. Which is by fact not the exact state as you stringing every time.

If the mains have dropped through use the racquet is under less strain than when initially strung.

PrinceYonex · Nov 26, 2021

Nate7-5 said:
After trying full bed uncoated natural gut for the first time, I much prefer gut crossed with AK Pro CX (we have a long thread about it on here). Its obviously not the final word in spin potential, but incredibly comfortable and durable.

Does Ak Pro CX allow the gut mains to slide, or does it stick?
Do you prefer Ak Pro CX over a poly cross?

PMF · Nov 27, 2021

At my club, I have a friend who uses a Pure Drive + with a full bed of RPM Blast. Despite my warnings and recommendations, he only restrings it once a year, if even that. I have no idea how he gets away with this, but he does hit a very clean ball. Big server too.

I once tried the racquet, and could feel the harsh vibrations within 5 minutes, and quickly gave it back.

antony · Nov 27, 2021

PMF said:
At my club, I have a friend who uses a Pure Drive + with a full bed of RPM Blast. Despite my warnings and recommendations, he only restrings it once a year, if even that. I have no idea how he gets away with this, but he does hit a very clean ball. Big server too.

I once tried the racquet, and could feel the harsh vibrations within 5 minutes, and quickly gave it back.

You and I might call it harsh vibrations but he probably sees it as feedback haha

Nate7-5 · Nov 28, 2021

PrinceYonex said:
Does Ak Pro CX allow the gut mains to slide, or does it stick?
Do you prefer Ak Pro CX over a poly cross?

The gut/AK Pro CX is not going to give you the snapback performance of gut/poly - but I also wasnt constantly putting the strings back in place. Do I prefer it over a poly cross? If Im looking for the best spin potential, no. But I would definitely put it back into one of my 4 racquets - its clearly better than full gut.

If ATP pros use Gut/Poly, why do rec 3.5 and 4.0 players use Poly/Poly ?

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