Despite all the Alcaraz #1 criticism, he’s only 70 points behind Novak in the WTF race

Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Bambooman said:
You're seeing laughter because Djokovic showed he's better and then Carlos moved back ahead because Djokovic hasn't played.

That's basically a mini version of last year.
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Djokovic hasn’t played? I just posted their years. He’s played. In fact they have the same amount of losses. Yet Alcaraz is on 40 wins and Djokovic is on 27. Maybe Djokovic would be further ahead on points if he wasn’t losing to Lajovic at a 250 or Musetti in Madrid?
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
I think above all, the only legitimate cause for criticism with the current ranking has to do with Wimbledon points from last year (or lack thereof). Given their performances at Wimby last year, Dijon would've been something like 1700+ points ahead in the race and would've maintained it all year. Instead, we've already had 6 changes in the top spot through June and it's an 70pt margin or whatever.
 
kayapit

kayapit

Semi-Pro
Agree, though Novak would probably have a fairly good cushion if he had been allowed to play the sunshine double though. It'll be nice when things get back to normal re points.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Tweener said:
I think above all, the only legitimate cause for criticism with the current ranking has to do with Wimbledon points from last year (or lack thereof). Given their performances at Wimby last year, Dijon would've been something like 1700+ points ahead in the race and would've maintained it all year. Instead, we've already had 6 changes in the top spot through June and it's an 70pt margin or whatever.
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The criticism on that 2022 Wimbledon matter is valid, my point is that in 2023 as of right now, it’s actually incredibly close for who will be 2023 year end #1.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
The criticism on that 2022 Wimbledon matter is valid, my point is that in 2023, it’s actually incredibly close for who will be 2023 year end #1.
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Yeah, there is no valid argument at all for the race to WTF. But the actual ranking itself is where I think the animosity or criticism is aimed. I might be wrong, people have argued weirder things before, but the YTD race should not be in dispute at all.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
kayapit said:
Agree, though Novak would probably have a fairly good cushion if he had been allowed to play the sunshine double though. It'll be nice when things get back to normal re points.
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Eh, Novak hasn’t made the QF’s at Indian Wells and Miami in over 7 years since 2016. And given how he went at the other Masters this year (3R loss in Monte Carlo and QF in Rome…). It’s not screaming promising).
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
The rankings will be back to normal on 17 July 2023, when Wimbledon has ranking points again on the computer, and isn't an exhibition like 2022.

It will be a bit weird ranking wise at this year's Wimbledon, seeing as no player has any points to defend.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Mustard said:
The rankings will be back to normal on 17 July 2023, when Wimbledon has ranking points again on the computer, and isn't an exhibition like 2022.
Click to expand...
No offence but do you not understand race rankings? Or did you not read the the thread title? It’s about the 2023 race rankings which has nothing to do with Wimbledon not awarding points last year. That’s based on results only this year. And Alcaraz is only 70 points behind him.
 
maupp

maupp

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
Djokovic hasn’t played? I just posted their years. He’s played. In fact they have the same amount of losses. Yet Alcaraz is on 40 wins and Djokovic is on 27. Maybe Djokovic would be further ahead on points if he wasn’t losing to Lajovic at a 250 or Musetti in Madrid?
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Alcaraz also managed to accumulate all those wins due to being allowed to participate in any tournament while Djokovic couldn't play the sunshine double where he does well.

At this point in his career, it's well noted that Clay is Nole's weakest surface and therefore it's not surprising he didn't do that well in Clay tournaments leading up to RG. But if he had the chance to play the sunshine double where he plays substantially better than on the Clay that would have given him more opportunities to rack up more points.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
maupp said:
Alcaraz also managed to accumulate all those wins due to being allowed to participate in any tournament while Djokovic couldn't play the sunshine double where he does well.

At this point in his career, it's well noted that Clay is Nole's weakest surface and therefore it's not surprising he didn't do that well in Clay tournaments leading up to RG. But if he had the chance to play the sunshine double where he plays substantially better than on the Clay that would have given him more opportunities to rack up more points.
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Djokovic hasn’t made the QF’s at both Indian Wells and Miami (aka the Sunshine double) in over 7 years so I think you might want to check that “does well” of late… the last time Djokovic made the QF’s at Indian Wells or Miami, Alcaraz was 12
 
maupp

maupp

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
Djokovic hasn’t made the QF’s at both Indian Wells and Miami (aka the Sunshine double) in over 7 years so I think you might want to check that “does well” of late… the last time Djokovic made the QF’s at Indian Wells and Miami, Alcaraz was 12
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For the sake of argument, let's say he does poorly in those 2 tournaments, he could still realistically at least amass 500 points which would have been enough to keep him number 1 throughout.
 
GabeT

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
There’s two issues here:

First, to many it sounds ridiculous that the guy who holds 4 of the 5 top tournaments (and holds 3 of the 4 slams) is not the number 1 in the world.

Of course one can say, rules are the rules. Masters also count. That‘s why Murray was rightly the YE1 in 2016 even if Novak won more slams that year.

But that brings up the second point. Strictly by the points Novak should be ahead except for the dumb idea of not including Wimbledon’s points, which hurt no one except the players. And Novak most of all as the winner.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
maupp said:
For the sake of argument, let's say he does poorly in those 2 tournaments, he could still realistically at least amass 500 points which would have been enough to keep him number 1 throughout.
Click to expand...
I mean if we’re doing for the sake of argument we could say that Alcaraz would’ve gotten enough points in Australia to amass over 500 points if it wasn’t for injury
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
GabeT said:
There’s two issues here:

First, to many it sounds ridiculous that the guy who holds 4 of the 5 top tournaments (and holds 3 of the 4 slams) is not the number 1 in the world.

Of course one can say, rules are the rules. Masters also count. That‘s why Murray was rightly the YE1 in 2016 even if Novak won more slams that year.

But that brings up the second point. Strictly by the points Novak should be ahead except for the dumb idea of not including Wimbledon’s points, which hurt no one except the players. And Novak most of all as the winner.
Click to expand...
We are talking about the race, strictly points scored this season, lasts year wimbledon, uso, or wtf dont count as this season
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
GabeT said:
There’s two issues here:

First, to many it sounds ridiculous that the guy who holds 4 of the 5 top tournaments (and holds 3 of the 4 slams) is not the number 1 in the world.

Of course one can say, rules are the rules. Masters also count. That‘s why Murray was rightly the YE1 in 2016 even if Novak won more slams that year.

But that brings up the second point. Strictly by the points Novak should be ahead except for the dumb idea of not including Wimbledon’s points, which hurt no one except the players. And Novak most of all as the winner.
Click to expand...
But Wimbledon last year has nothing to do with race rankings in 2023 (same as USO and WTF) and Alcaraz is still only 70 points behind him. Problem is that Novak hasn’t shown up at other tournaments in 2023 to get the necessary points to have a clear lead.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
GabeT said:
Read the very first sentence in OP’s post. It explicitly refers to Novak not being #1 the world, which is calculated over the prior 52 weeks
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Yeah he says there is obvious critizism for that, but that in the race they are very close only a few points apart
 
GabeT

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Aussie Darcy said:
But Wimbledon last year has nothing to do with race rankings in 2023 (same as USO and WTF) and Alcaraz is still only 70 points behind him. Problem is that Novak hasn’t shown up at other tournaments in 2023 to get the necessary points to have a clear lead.
Click to expand...
You started by addressing the “ incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak”. Right? I mean that’s what you wrote, not me.

the posters that are arguing against the current ranking are talking about the overall ranking, not the race ranking
 
TheAssassin

TheAssassin

Legend
The rankings system, both race and overall, rewards for cumulative efforts. Alcaraz participating at 3 more events and having 13 more victories is why the race is close. Fair play to him for dealing with the field so well. However Djokovic going 2 for 2 at Slams so far this year and holding 4/5 biggest titles while not being allowed to participate at the one he is missing (and more significantly no Wimbledon points last year where he would gain +1820 on Aclaraz under normal circumstances) is why Alcaraz being ranked higher than him at the moment is not something one would draw any particular conclusions from. Especially after how the match between each other went recently. Also, even a conservative prediction that Djokovic wouldn't do exceptionally well at the events he skipped or wasn't allowed to play, it would still boost his points tally enough for the race difference to be noticeably bigger than 70.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
GabeT said:
But in the race Novak is #1. so no one is debating that, I think
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Yeah the point he was making is that despite how much everybody has in mind points from last year to say djokovic should be number 1 miles away from the second, carlos is barely 70 points behind this season, djokovic didnt play the sunshine double, but alcaraz didnt play australia, so it more or less evens out, they are pretty close half way trough the season, maybe that changes after wimbledon
 
maupp

maupp

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
Eh, Novak hasn’t made the QF’s at Indian Wells and Miami in over 7 years since 2016. And given how he went at the other Masters this year (3R loss in Monte Carlo and QF in Rome…). It’s not screaming promising).
Click to expand...
Also this argument is a bit disingenuous given that Nole hasn't gotten to actually play there the last 4 years including this one and in 2017 and part of 2018 he was going through his slump which was partly caused by delayed surgery on his elbow.

With actual context there are reasons why Nole hasn't gotten past the QF since 2016. And the fact still remains that he's won those tournaments 11 times combined and there is no reason to believe a fully healthy and motivated Djokovic wouldn't do well in tournaments he's historically done extremely well.
 
GabeT

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Slicehand said:
Yeah the point he was making is that despite how much everybody has in mind points from last year to say djokovic should be number 1 miles away from the second, carlos is barely 70 points behind this season, djokovic didnt play the sunshine double, but alcaraz didnt play australia, so it more or less evens out, they are pretty close half way trough the season, maybe that changes after wimbledon
Click to expand...
I get that. And I am sympathetic to the argument that Carlos has won a lot this year and that Novak would have won more had he played more.

But OP is mixing up concepts. If the debate is about the overall ranking heading into Wimbledon (it will be resolved after that) then what happened just this year is no counter argument. The rankings are based on the performance over the last 52 weeks. What happened since January 1 is already incorporated in the rankings today but it’s only part of the story.
 
maupp

maupp

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
I mean if we’re doing for the sake of argument we could say that Alcaraz would’ve gotten enough points in Australia to amass over 500 points if it wasn’t for injury
Click to expand...
Injuries are part of the game and always factored in when talking about ranking and whatnot. Political bans aren't.

I'm not counting tournaments Djokovic skipped because he wanted to rest or anything like that.
 
P

pj80

Legend
Aussie Darcy said:
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
Click to expand...
The only criticism I see here of Alcaraz are Rafa fans who are still salty that he didn't stop Djo picking up another major title.
There is no doubt the kid is gonna win many titles and even challenge Big 3 records in the future
 
T

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Aussie Darcy said:
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
Click to expand...
I actually think it's more amazing that Djokovic can not be allowed to play in several big point tournaments and lose in early rounds of smaller tournaments AND STILL be able to turn it on at will to win the Slams. Truly "Serena-esque"

There's an amazing arrogance to knowing that you can just turn it on at will against the field and win Major after Major. And I mean arrogance in the best possible way. The guy is amazing. The only comparison is Serena. But she fooled herself quite a few times (otherwise she'd have 40 Slams instead of "only" 23). The other comparison is Rafa on clay. There are a few season where he "couldn't be bothered" to do anything more than mail it in during the clay season leading up to Roland Garros. Then he'd just absolutely massacre everyone and win the Slam. I always enjoyed watching that. Especially when he'd do it to Djokovic (and especially in 2022...that was awesome).
 
Last edited:
kayapit

kayapit

Semi-Pro
Aussie Darcy said:
Eh, Novak hasn’t made the QF’s at Indian Wells and Miami in over 7 years since 2016. And given how he went at the other Masters this year (3R loss in Monte Carlo and QF in Rome…). It’s not screaming promising).
Click to expand...
Yeah maybe. I might have been underrating the comp level at those tourneys in my mind. Med would have been tough for him; Sinner/Rune maybe. Carlos in Miami of course. I still maintain that Novak rises to the occasion more often than not, and it would have been big bc of his return to the States and all. Guess we'll have to wait until next year to find out.
 
The Fedfather

The Fedfather

Legend
He absolutely is close, outside of Slams Carlitos has been the dominant player this season. AO he missed, at RG he lost to Djokovic, but before the loss he had a more dominant run. We know how the loss itself went, it was one set all before the onset of cramps.

Right now there is no case to be made that there is any significant gap between the two in terms of who has performed better this season in the tournaments they played. The Wimby result will be a more clear separation line.
 
CHillTennis

CHillTennis

Hall of Fame
Aussie Darcy said:
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
Click to expand...
This is misleading.

Djokovic did not receive any ranking points for winning Wimbledon, last year. He also wasn't allowed to play at the US Open (which Carlos won.)
 
maupp

maupp

Semi-Pro
kayapit said:
Yeah maybe. I might have been underrating the comp level at those tourneys in my mind. Med would have been tough for him; Sinner/Rune maybe. Carlos in Miami of course. I still maintain that Novak rises to the occasion more often than not, and it would have been big bc of his return to the States and all. Guess we'll have to wait until next year to find out.
Click to expand...
Djokovic not making past the QF since 2016 is misleading without context. In 7 years since 2016 he's missed 4 years due to being absent(covid, bans) and 2 years(2017 and start of 2018) he was going through his slump due to his delayed elbow surgery.

That's 6/7 years since 2016.
 
Razer

Razer

Legend
Mustard said:
The rankings will be back to normal on 17 July 2023, when Wimbledon has ranking points again on the computer, and isn't an exhibition like 2022.

It will be a bit weird ranking wise at this year's Wimbledon, seeing as no player has any points to defend.
Click to expand...

Aus open 2022 was the exhibition with second best players Competing for the title while their superior was banned.

Wimbledon 2022 was normal with Superior playing the tourney and and some inferiors banned which was fine.

Regarding normalcy, that will only return after IW and Miami next year. Not so soon.
 
Vincent-C

Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
No, it was not fine that "some inferiors" (as defined by whom, on which day?) were banned from Wimbledon last year. That's a slippery slope right there, friend.
 
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