The Top 20 has only one player over age 27

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru

An under-noticed detail of the new rankings this week: Grigor Dimitrov has been replaced by Francisco Cerundolo, leaving the top 20 with only one player over age 30 - 36-year old Novak Djokovic. First time this has happened in over a decade from my research.

In fact, the second oldest member of the top 10 is not even close to 30 - after Djokovic, the next oldest is only 27, in Cameron Norrie. That is the first time it’s happened in well over 15 years and possibly longer.

“Great Age Shift” theorists… not looking good.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster

An under-noticed detail of the new rankings this week: Grigor Dimitrov has been replaced by Francisco Cerundolo, leaving the top 20 with only one player over age 30 - 36-year old Novak Djokovic. First time this has happened in over a decade from my research.

In fact, the second oldest member of the top 10 is not even close to 30 - after Djokovic, the next oldest is only 27, in Cameron Norrie. That is the first time it’s happened in well over 15 years and possibly longer.

“Great Age Shift” theorists… not looking good.
Norrie isn't top 10 ;)
 

Razer

Legend
It is the beginning of an era, so thats why this is normal. Over the next 10-15 years you will find the average age increasing of the top 20 consistently with more oldies in it. The late 90s born and the 2000s borns will all be there consistently for a long time.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Might have something to do with the fact that the weakest generation in tennis history is in their early 30s and the best players of that generation are injured. Plus 4 of the 5 guys ranked 21-25 are early 30s.
But I thought it was supposed to be a new paradigm irrespective of the quality of players involved.

And let's not pretend like the 30's dudes from 2017-2018 were only there based on their quality. They were there because the younger guys were non-existent.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Might have something to do with the fact that the weakest generation in tennis history is in their early 30s and the best players of that generation are injured. Plus 4 of the 5 guys ranked 21-25 are early 30s.
I would think that the awful LostGen is the same reason there were so many 30 year olds with high rankings in the 2017-2021 period too.

What has cursed the lost generation is that all of them suffered significant injuries - Del Potro first, Cilic out all year, Nishikori/Raonic done by 30, Thiem now a challenger mug at 30, etc. even PCB injured now. the only healthy one, Dim, has a brain injury I guess.

The single biggest predictor and causation of decline in any sport is serious injury. If you’re still healthy you really don’t decline as much. That much is true of the “GAS”. But you also become more injury prone and have lesser recovery skills in old age, and I think that is the main reason why we’re in this current situation.
 

The Guru

Legend
But I thought it was supposed to be a new paradigm irrespective of the quality of players involved.

And let's not pretend like the 30's dudes from 2017-2018 were only there based on their quality. They were there because the younger guys were non-existent.
Well that would be completely idiotic and there's no way you thought that. If you're bad at tennis being 32 won't suddenly make you good obviously. No one has ever claimed that and ascribing that belief to other people is dumb.

They were there up and down the rankings. Of course it was more pronounced because it was the strongest Gen ever vs the weakest ever but from Djo/Ned to Isner to Verdasco to even guys like Mannarino they were all sticking around.

According to you guys Med has like 6 months of decent tennis left so we'll see what happens.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Well that would be completely idiotic and there's no way you thought that. If you're bad at tennis being 32 won't suddenly make you good obviously. No one has ever claimed that and ascribing that belief to other people is dumb.

They were there up and down the rankings. Of course it was more pronounced because it was the strongest Gen ever vs the weakest ever but from Djo/Ned to Isner to Verdasco to even guys like Mannarino they were all sticking around.

According to you guys Med has like 6 months of decent tennis left so we'll see what happens.
Really? Because there have been players who got better in their 30's like Anderson and Isner.

Nah, strongest gen still doesn't explain how John Isner could win masters and Kevin Anderson reach multiple slam finals. It was a pitiful time.

And no, your last paragraph is just putting words in my mouth. Med is 27, why should I imply what you said?
 

The Guru

Legend
Really? Because there have been players who got better in their 30's like Anderson and Isner.

Nah, strongest gen still doesn't explain how John Isner could win masters and Kevin Anderson reach multiple slam finals. It was a pitiful time.

And no, your last paragraph is just putting words in my mouth. Med is 27, why should I imply what you said?
Yeah not that abnormal especially considering their games were not based on athleticism at all. Also, I don't think Isner's results were significantly different. 2018 was his best year sure but he always had plenty of random runs of good form. It will always be the exception but it happens sometimes and servebots are the most likely candidates for having best years in early 30s. Stans not even a bot and it happened for him. It happens.

Yeah Kandy should never have made two slam finals we can agree on that. Isner winning one master is far from a travesty though. He's a respectable player.

Because he'll be 28 which is generally claimed as the end of tennis prime by you lot. I'd bet big money Med is still top 10 at 31 injury withstanding but hey we'll see.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Yeah not that abnormal especially considering their games were not based on athleticism at all. Also, I don't think Isner's results were significantly different. 2018 was his best year sure but he always had plenty of random runs of good form. It will always be the exception but it happens sometimes and servebots are the most likely candidates for having best years in early 30s. Stans not even a bot and it happened for him. It happens.

Yeah Kandy should never have made two slam finals we can agree on that. Isner winning one master is far from a travesty though. He's a respectable player.

Because he'll be 28 which is generally claimed as the end of tennis prime by you lot. I'd bet big money Med is still top 10 at 31 injury withstanding but hey we'll see.
I don't think 28 is the end of prime. Wasn't Fed prime in 2009-early 2010 and Djoko peak in 2015-early 2016?

I give Med 3 more years of top tennis since he's too reliant on his speed and once he loses a step it won't look pretty.
 

The Guru

Legend
I don't think 28 is the end of prime. Wasn't Fed prime in 2009-early 2010 and Djoko peak in 2015-early 2016?

I give Med 3 more years of top tennis since he's too reliant on his speed and once he loses a step it won't look pretty.
Yeah exactly they were both 28 then. Djokovic turned 29 in early 2016 and Fed was 28 in early 2010. Nadal also 27 in early 2014. So yeah basically just proved my point for me.

If Med has 3 years left according to you he's beating the odds and has a prime that outlasted Big 3
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think 28 is the end of prime. Wasn't Fed prime in 2009-early 2010 and Djoko peak in 2015-early 2016?

I give Med 3 more years of top tennis since he's too reliant on his speed and once he loses a step it won't look pretty.
I think you can still play very high level tennis consistently even at age 27-30, until around age 32 or so, then you take a step back consistency and peak wise, but can still be quite good in spurts, or on your favorite surface until the mid 30s.

After that, though, I think the decline is inevitable. Even Djoko to me isn’t as good in 2023 as he was in 2018-19 for example.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Yeah exactly they were both 28 then. Djokovic turned 29 in early 2016 and Fed was 28 in early 2010. Nadal also 27 in early 2014. So yeah basically just proved my point for me.

If Med has 3 years left according to you he's beating the odds and has a prime that outlasted Big 3
I didn't prove any point. If anything you're further proving that late 20's is not peak for a tennis player anymore.

As for Med, didn't he slump for a year and at one point exit the top 10? Hardly a prime that surpasses the Big 3's.
 

The Guru

Legend
I didn't prove any point. If anything you're further proving that late 20's is not peak for a tennis player anymore.

As for Med, didn't he slump for a year and at one point exit the top 10? Hardly a prime that surpasses the Big 3's.
You claimed not to subscribe to the idea that 28 is the end of tennis primes and then stated that's exactly when it happened for multiple players.

Not the point. I'm saying if your guess is correct that Med's prime will last another 3 years then he will have extended it into a later age than the Big 3 managed according to you.
 
The age-shift theorists on GPPD took a valid factual data point that the average age of pro tennis players has significantly increased over the last decade+, and have wrongly extrapolated that to come to conclusions that go against logic and reason. Those who claimed that on average for a pro athlete being 35 now is physically the same as being 25 had plenty of reality checks right in front of them, they simply choose to ignore all of them. They will ignore this top-20 age stat too.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
The age-shift theorists on GPPD took a valid factual data point that the average age of pro tennis players has significantly increased over the last decade+, and have wrongly extrapolated that to come to conclusions that go against logic and reason. Those who claimed that on average for a pro athlete being 35 now is physically the same as being 25 had plenty of reality checks right in front of them, they simply choose to ignore all of them. They will ignore this top-20 age stat too.

This.

IMO it is primarily equipment stability (racquets/strings not changing much since the late 90’s) that caused tennis to lose its reputation as a young persons sport. Graphite and poly changed the meta and favoured younger players. Now it is stabilizing. Modern medicine has aided in injury recovery, but are athletes actually peaking or priming at older ages, across all sports?

It’s very much a mixed bag:

I’m trying to approach this w/an open mind but I kinda don’t see the stark difference you do here. In some sports, like soccer, there is good evidence to suggest players sustain their primes a little longer. In many other sports though, when looking at the data, it’s not so clear.

Avg NBA player age in 1980 - 26.5.

Avg NBA player age in 2022 - 26.2

The oldest player to ever win a finals MVP remains Kareem (at 38), who was a perennial Top 5 player in his 30’s. Incidentally he was 1980’s MVP, at 33. The leading rebounder in the league was 30. Larry Bird was the only member of the first team All-NBA team younger than 28.

Age of the Top 5 MVP vote-getters?

33, 29, 27, 23, 31 in 1980.

26, 27, 27, 22, 25 in 2022.

Avg MLB player age in 1980 - 28.2

Avg MLB player age in 2022 - 28.2 (down from 28.4 in 2021).

The leader in WAR that year was 36 year old Steve Carlton. Phil Niekro was still an all-star calibre pitcher at 41, and would remain that way until 46. Schmidt and Brett won the MVP’s that year, at 31 and 27.

In the NL, the Top 5 MVP vote-getters were aged, 31, 26, 33, 31 and 36.

In the AL they were 27, 34, 29, 25 and 31.

In 2022?

35, 30, 31, 33 and 29 in the NL.

30, 28, 25, 30 and 30 in the AL.

Virtually identical in almost every respect. No evidence players decline much slower now in baseball.

Avg NHL player age in 1998 (first year this stat is available on HockeyRef) - 27.7

Avg NHL player age in 2022 - 28.2 (27.9 as recently as two years ago though).

The top five vote-getters in ‘98? 33, 25, 27, 25, 37.

‘22? 24, 25, 26, 28, 28.

Again, negligible. For every Jagr of the 2010’s I can point to a Howe of the late 60’s (All-Star at 40) and early 80’s (contributing second-line player at 51).

Don’t have much long-term data on the NFL but the average age now is about 26…I don’t imagine it was ever much younger than that. QB’s last a little longer now, but there are more rules in place to protect them today. RB’s, WR’s, CB’s etc burn out as quick as they ever have. The most longevous WR ever is Jerry Rice, and he retired in ‘04. Favre was an MVP candidate in ‘09, at 40. Marcus Allen made a PB at 33 in 1993, which is almost unheard of for a running back. Elway made consecutive Pro Bowls at 37-38 in ‘97-‘98, ending his career with two Super Bowl wins. Jurgensen’s best run of form was arguably from 33-35. Unitas won an MVP in ‘67, at 34, Tarkenton in ‘75 at 35. Fouts entered his prime in his late 20’s, and remained effective into his mid-late 30’s, in the early 80’s. Len Dawson began his in his late 20’s and remained effective into his mid 30’s. The list goes on.

In tennis, players are absolutely older now, but I wouldn’t pin that primarily on athlete self-care OR the field getting weaker. I think there’s a third culprit:


^before graphite, tennis players sustained good form into later ages for the sports entire history. Only when the tour conditions were shaken up did the average age change significantly (that’s not to say that 30’s were ever a median prime/peak age, however). Then as things started to stabilize, it happened again with polyester, prolonging the “tennis is a sport for zygotes” meme. But older (relative to the 70s-90s) players succeeding (again, relative to 70s-90s standards which still shape our perceptions) was the norm for the first 100 or so years.

More on the rest later, I’m sleepy af.


…if anything, given that certain injuries are no longer career-enders (torn ulnar collateral ligaments in baseball, torn ACL’s basketball)…and yet still those sports haven’t gotten “older” is…well, I’ll let people draw their own conclusions.
 
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Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
This.

IMO it is primarily equipment stability that caused tennis to lose its reputation as a young persons sport. Modern medicine has aided in injury recovery, but are athletes actually peaking or priming at older ages, across all sports?

It’s very much a mixed bag:




…if anything, given that certain injuries are no longer career-enders (torn ulnar collateral ligaments in baseball, torn ACL’s basketball)…and yet still those sports haven’t gotten “older” is…well, I’ll let people draw their own conclusions.
This is a great point.

Actually, if anything, the ATGs today actually have worse longevity than their predecessors. Fed was done at 39, weren’t Tilden and Pancho still touring in their late 40s? Didn’t Pancho spank Laver Rosewall and Emerson in big matches when he was like 42, and then Rosewall still made Slam SFs and beyond when he was 43?

Even LeBron amazing as he is, has precedent in Kareem playing at age 40 for example.

Obviously the game is far more physically demanding today and no sane person would compare playing tennis in 2021 to playing it in 1961 from a physical standpoint. But on the other hand, it does show that the advancements we’ve made do not truly revolutionize the outcomes for players, longevity wise, too much from what they were in the past.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
This is a great point.

Actually, if anything, the ATGs today actually have worse longevity than their predecessors. Fed was done at 39, weren’t Tilden and Pancho still touring in their late 40s? Didn’t Pancho spank Laver Rosewall and Emerson in big matches when he was like 42, and then Rosewall still made Slam SFs and beyond when he was 43?

Even LeBron amazing as he is, has precedent in Kareem playing at age 40 for example.

Obviously the game is far more physically demanding today and no sane person would compare playing tennis in 2021 to playing it in 1961 from a physical standpoint. But on the other hand, it does show that the advancements we’ve made do not truly revolutionize the outcomes for players, longevity wise, too much from what they were in the past.

Exactly. It just sucks that we will have to endure the “tennis was a sport for babies now it’s a sport for oldsters” meme for probably decades more.

Tennis was younger from the late 70’s to the early 2000’s because the equipment shake-ups were inherently favourable to younger players that had more neuroplasticity (I felt so pretentious typing that)…oh and Borg retiring while still in his physical prime didn’t help.

For the rest of its history, it wasn’t much older or younger than other sports. The age distributions of tournament winners indicated a players prime years were around 23-31 and there were outliers on each end of the spectrum (Becker/Pancho, PETE/Rosewall, etc.)
 
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The Guru

Legend
The average age data is misleading in a lot of ways.

First with the NBA the reasons average age haven't changed much are largely due to rule changes and changing roster construction ideals. Established NBA stars do have longer careers than they ever have on average undoubtedly so.

First major point. In 1980 people came into the league at 22 now they come in at 19. Larry Bird would've been on an NBA roster as a teenager if he was born today and he was 23 year old rookie in 1980. This obviously deflates the average age and masks that the best players (10-20% of the NBA) are playing longer.

Second major point. The NBA (and the MLB) have added roster spots that have been filled almost exclusively with young fliers who they hope will develop. The NBA added two roster spots that are structured so they literally have to be given to prospects who are going to be younger.

Lastly and this one extends across all sports. The idea of locker room guys and vet presences providing value has been largely thrown to the wayside and now teams try to fill out their rosters with young players who have a 1 in 100 shot of being amazing instead of milking old guys for the last ounce of value they can provide. This is not because the young guys are better obviously but its a shift in how GMs do business. Bruno Caboclo had a 7 year NBA career (from 19-25) despite never being a G League level player because his upside was theoretically very high. In 1980 he would've never seen a roster.

In the NBA there has absolutely, unequivocally been an extension of careers amongst the best players in the league even if the age averages have held for other reasons. Same goes for the NFL.

The MLB has always been more about technical ability than athletic skill so careers have always lasted longer there but even then financial incentives and player health have absolutely extended careers. No way Clayton Kershaw is healthy enough to still be playing if it was 1980.

Don't know **** about the NHL so can't comment.
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
It's curtain for the 90s born players. They were a total disappointment.

Let see Alcaraz and the 80s born players go from here
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
The average age data is misleading in a lot of ways.

Absolutely, if used as a catch-all. That’s why I also included top performers.

First with the NBA the reasons average age haven't changed much are largely due to rule changes and changing roster construction ideals. Established NBA stars do have longer careers than they ever have on average undoubtedly so.

But bolded is primarily because of injury recovery, which I already talked about.

Injury recovery makes the sport “older” just as draft rules make the sport “younger”… while the top performers seem to be around the same age.

The point is it’s a multivariate subject and the much more boring (and I’d argue correct) answer to the question of whether athletes age better is: “it varies”.

Varies based on the sport and the parameters we’re using.

Sweeping statements about the sporting world getting older as a whole are just that.
 
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TheFifthSet

Legend
Same goes for the NFL.

I would need to see the data for this one, tbh. I’ve eye-balled top performers over multiple seasons in each sport and am not seeing it at all, even in the NFL except for maybe at the QB spot (admittedly the most important position). That’s definitely more due to rule changes rather than modern-day QB’s finding a magic elixir.

And baseball just flatly seems less age-friendly to top players now too, not merely just the average player. Kershaw, for all of his injury woes, is still only 35. Randy Johnson won 4 consecutive Cy Young’s from the ages of 35-38. Maddux was an effective pitcher into his 40’s. Clemens probably should’ve won the Cy in 2005, at 42. There will always be outliers, but there are less of them now.
 
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paolo2143

Professional
This is a great point.

Actually, if anything, the ATGs today actually have worse longevity than their predecessors. Fed was done at 39, weren’t Tilden and Pancho still touring in their late 40s? Didn’t Pancho spank Laver Rosewall and Emerson in big matches when he was like 42, and then Rosewall still made Slam SFs and beyond when he was 43?

Even LeBron amazing as he is, has precedent in Kareem playing at age 40 for example.

Obviously the game is far more physically demanding today and no sane person would compare playing tennis in 2021 to playing it in 1961 from a physical standpoint. But on the other hand, it does show that the advancements we’ve made do not truly revolutionize the outcomes for players, longevity wise, too much from what they were in the past.
I am not sure about that if you look at every single decade since the war up until big 3 then most players were past their prime zone by 31 or 32. The likes of Laver, Newcombe, Connors, Mcenroe, Borg, Vilas, Ashe, Lendl, Sampras never won a single slam after age of 31. Not only that but even Agassi who aged well as a player only won a single slam after passing 31.

In most cases they hardly even reached another GS final. The exception was Ken Rosewall (to me he is very under-rated). He managed to win 4 slams on his return to open tennis in 1968 all when he was 34 or over.

However the above just goes to show that Roger, Rafa and Novak are exceptional players as Roger has won 3 slams after 31, Rafa has won 5 and Novak has won an incredible 8 slams. Not only that they were also in a lot of other finals they lost after turning 31.
 

The Guru

Legend
Absolutely, if used as a catch-all. That’s why I also included top performers.



But bolded is primarily because of injury recovery, which I already talked about.

Injury recovery makes the sport “older” just as draft rules make the sport “younger”, while the top performers seem to be around the same age.

The point is it’s a multivariate subject and the much more boring (and I’d argue correct) answer to the question of whether athletes age better is: “it varies”.

Varies based on the sport and the parameters we’re using.

Sweeping statements about the sporting world getting older as a whole are just that.
Right but we both agree that top performers (what we generally care about in this subject) are having longer careers and sustaining a high level for longer. FWIW the low performers would be too if they weren't getting replaced by higher performers or people that have the potential to be higher performers.

Yeah that's definitely a big factor. Why is that an argument against what I'm saying? It's an argument for what I'm saying. The logic and incentives on this are pretty clear. Health, nutrition, training, recovery, and financial incentives all point towards players playing longer than ever. It adds up. Steph Curry's ankles would've been destroyed in the 80s and he's conservatively a top 5 player in the world now at 35. These health improvements make a huge difference. When people like Djokovic and LBJ are spending literal millions more than stars of 40 years ago even made just on the maintenance of their body of course they're going to last longer.

You said top performers are 23-31 I agree with that. The narrative on here is that it's 20-27 in tennis. So if the GAS is just tennis shifting towards what most other sports already were then fine yeah I agree but people on here acting like 28 is old in this day and age is stupid. Maybe your point is acting like it was ever old is stupid and I don't know I'm a pretty poor tennis historian my knowledge of tennis is only very strong this century.

Regardless the idea that best players can't extend their primes into their early 30s is dumb. It is the norm across sports today for the best of the best to still be at or near the top of the game from 30-35. Steph is still elite now and I bet big money that Jokic, Giannis and co will be in their early 30s too.

Kershaw and Cole are probably the best two pitchers so far this season at 35 and 32. Most of the top hitters in their early 30s are still elite like Mookie, Nolan, Goldy, Freeman, J-Ram, Harper, Altuve etc.

Almost every single UFC champion and top 5 contender in every division is in their 30s.

Again the narrative seems to be elite tennis in your 30s is impossible and being as good or better at 32 as 22 is also impossible. Being good in your early 30s injuries withstanding from here on out will be the norm. That's the point.
 

The Guru

Legend
Football is the most complex and varies by position but outside of RBs and inside linebackers seems like most players stick around longer but I feel less strongly about that one.
 

An under-noticed detail of the new rankings this week: Grigor Dimitrov has been replaced by Francisco Cerundolo, leaving the top 20 with only one player over age 30 - 36-year old Novak Djokovic. First time this has happened in over a decade from my research.

In fact, the second oldest member of the top 10 is not even close to 30 - after Djokovic, the next oldest is only 27, in Cameron Norrie. That is the first time it’s happened in well over 15 years and possibly longer.

“Great Age Shift” theorists… not looking good.
Pretty much one of the youngest top 20s ever

In Jan 1991, supposedly the peak of youth: Average age: 25.4
In 2023, current average age : 24.8
 
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This is a great point.

Actually, if anything, the ATGs today actually have worse longevity than their predecessors. Fed was done at 39, weren’t Tilden and Pancho still touring in their late 40s? Didn’t Pancho spank Laver Rosewall and Emerson in big matches when he was like 42, and then Rosewall still made Slam SFs and beyond when he was 43?

Even LeBron amazing as he is, has precedent in Kareem playing at age 40 for example.

Obviously the game is far more physically demanding today and no sane person would compare playing tennis in 2021 to playing it in 1961 from a physical standpoint. But on the other hand, it does show that the advancements we’ve made do not truly revolutionize the outcomes for players, longevity wise, too much from what they were in the past.
Average age of NBA in 2023: 26.3
Average age in 1991: 27.2

Obviously you can come to the NBA after one year in college or even younger if from Europe today compared to 1991, but that hasn’t affected much without doing the math.

Average age in 2000 when players could come in right after high school since 1996: 27.8
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Right but we both agree that top performers (what we generally care about in this subject) are having longer careers and sustaining a high level for longer.


No, I don’t agree that there’s been a dramatic shift on the whole, across all sports. Even just from the year you picked in our original discussion, that’s not been the case. The age distributions of top performers are similar in all four of the main North American sports.

Small, subtle changes have occurred at best, and many sports offset. Baseball is one concrete example. There were slightly more old-age outliers in the past than there have been in the last few years. Best I can tell, this is irrefutable.


Yeah that's definitely a big factor. Why is that an argument against what I'm saying? It's an argument for what I'm saying. The logic and incentives on this are pretty clear. Health, nutrition, training, recovery, and financial incentives all point towards players playing longer than ever.

This isn’t really reflected much in the age distributions of top performers, nor has average career lengths changed in any of the 4 sports we’ve discussed (American Football still comes in at a measly 3.3 years on average).

It adds up. Steph Curry's ankles would've been destroyed in the 80s and he's conservatively a top 5 player in the world now at 35.

He’s definitely an outlier.

At the top, though, the amount of outliers have remained stable, even in basketball.

These health improvements make a huge difference. When people like Djokovic and LBJ are spending literal millions more than stars of 40 years ago even made just on the maintenance of their body of course they're going to last longer.

That’s true. Which is yet another thing that makes tennis a bit less friendly to parity than ever before. In addition to the courts/equipment enabling more single-style dominance:


…self-care has also been whittled down to a science, which does favour established players and probably inflates their (numerical) greatness relative to their predecessors.

Like I said, mixed bag.


You said top performers are 23-31 I agree with that. The narrative on here is that it's 20-27 in tennis

And I also absolutely disagree with that narrative, even devoted whole posts disputing it LOL. Problem is that both sides are wrong, it’s just a matter of who’s more wrong. Tennis is older now, but it’s more due to equipment stability. It skewed younger from the late 70’s to the early 2000’s because the sport went through constant paradigm shifts. It was about as “old” before then as it is now.
 
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TheFifthSet

Legend
Almost every single UFC champion and top 5 contender in every division is in their 30s.

Well that one was kinda covered too:


While you make some salient points here, I don't know if the UFC comparison does your argument justice. There's a breaking in/vetting period in MMA that doesn't apply to most other individual sports, where you often have to toil away in the 'minor leagues' or beat multiple ranked opponents before securing a title shot.

Khabib, for instance, was basically a championship-caliber fighter by 25 (MAXIMUM, and perhaps earlier based on sheer ability). This was made clear when he dominated RDA in '14, who won the title less than a year later. Yet, he didn't even receive the opportunity to fight for it until 29.9...despite losing zero official rounds in the UFC before the McGregor fight.

Islam, ditto. He has been out-grappling ADCC champs at AKA for years, and per Mendez has been the only LW even taking rounds off Khabib in practice. He's been a championship-level LW since his mid 20's, by my reckoning, but absolutely no one wanted to fight him lol, and since he wasn't a draw he wasn't given the opportunity.

Leon, he's been coasting through decisions since his early 20's (when his winning streak started) but they slow-played him pretty hard too.

Ngannou, well, he started MMA in his mid 20's and was a technical novice from the wrestling side of things until recently. When he shored up his technical deficiencies, he improved loads, yes, but that same improvement likely would've occurred at a similar stage in his 20's if he took up the sport earlier--as they say, the lower your floor is the more room you have for improvement. And wrestling is generally a young mans sport, so I don't see why MMA wrestling would be much different.

With Pereira, there's really no meaningful frame of reference here. He got fast-tracked to an unmeritocratic degreee for being a great kickboxer and a potential foil/stylistic nightmare for Izzy. He only started pursuing MMA with any dedication at 28, and has only faced two top opponents. Again, really no telling if he would've been a phenom in his early 20's if he started training in his late teens and was given the same fast-tracking. As it stands, he didn't even start kickboxing until 22.

Usman, similar story: only started MMA at 25, and there's just no way you can get fast-tracked to a title shot in >5 years unless you're a big name like Brock Lesnar or Bo Nickal or something. He's definitely improved as a fighter, but his knees have basically been shot since he reached his late 20's and he probably would've beaten Woodley long before he finally got the chance.

Jiri's last fight was at 29 and let's just say it wasn't the most convincing win, nor has he faced particularly strong opposition. I know by virtue of winning the title he HAS to be ranked in the top 15, but in terms of actual opposition beaten...many, many questions remain, and little to state conclusively that he's better now than he was in his mid 20's.


Holloway became champ at 26, and was delivering masterclasses before then too. No good evidence to suggest he was better at 29-31 than 25-27, when he tore a healthier/less battle-worn Aldo apart twice. His last fight against Volk (who, tbf, seems to be a legit example of a fighter that's aged like wine) was a very one-sided loss.

Adesanya...started MMA at 21, didn't string together multiple fights in quick succession til 26. How does this same fighter fare if he began MMA training early in life? No one knows.

Jones is on the list for reputation alone - his last two fights were against Santos in 2019 (by my judgment it was a narrow 48-47 win against a very small LHW that injured both legs during the fight) and Reyes in early 2020 (officially a win, but 3/4ths of MMA Media had Dom as the victor). He hasn't fought in three years, and his performance peak was from 2011-2015--ages 24-28.

Can go on and on, but point is it's basically impossible to draw conclusions about how longevity-friendly MMA is when

a) it's a very young sport, paradigms are constantly changing. You have guys like Jimi Manuwa starting MMA training at 27 and then reaching the Top 15 a few years later....that sort of stuff just isn't even possible in tennis, so how can we compare the two?

b) no matter how good you are, it's inherently unlikely you'll get a title shot before your late 20's. The top fighters frequently hold up the division by not vacating the belt when injured, or stalling to pick favourable match-ups. The UFC brass has also mismanaged things to a scandalous degree in some weight classes, like WW where it's just the same group of 5-6 guys fighting over and over again ffs (Usman-Colby 2x, Masvidal-Usman 2x, Colby-Masvidal, Edwards-Usman 2, soon to be 3x, AND SO ON). Khamzat and Shavkat have probably possessed the ability to smash any of those guys for years now lol. Yet they won't get the shot to prove it until they're 30. Of course you won't get much turnover when it's like that.

c) the sample sizes are ridiculously small and liable to lead to misleading conclusions. Some champs will fight three times in five years and if they win two of em, can remain on the list. And once again, since turnover is glacial (partially due to point B, but not entirely), these rankings will always be biased towards established (read: older) fighters. There's just no way around that unless you expect guys on the come-up to fight killers once a month cuz the clock's ticking.

d) the rankings themselves are hopelessly tailored to boost popular established fighters. E.g McGregor, who didn't even drop out of the LW Top 10 until recently......he's 1-3 at LW in his career. The one win came six years ago. He lost the other three badly.

Also, despite perhaps being 'the most physical sport' the standard MMA skillset actually seems more age-resistant than its counterparts, another reason a direct comparison with tennis is fraught with problems. Strength and technique (valued everywhere, but especially combat sports) decline a lot slower than raw speed/other forms of raw athleticism which enable guys like Couture to stick around until 48 despite being at an age where they would've reached terminal decline in other sports; I mean seriously, can you imagine a Couture-equivalent in modern day tennis, basketball or footy (either kind, except for QB/Kicker in the American version)? Tennis places a larger premium on reflexes/reaction speed, which start to decline in your early 20's (see here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0094215). Makes sense why, among combat sports, wrestling is actually the least age-friendly as alluded to previously.


As for the other sports, well I can't say I want to exhaustively sift through each example, but baseball is actually trending younger and has been for some time. Oldies have been making waves, especially on the mound, forever...but less so now. Trout is 'only' 31, and a generational player so there's no surprise he's still near the top...but he was better from ages 22-26. He has fallen off defensively by some distance, is no longer a terror on the basepaths and isn't as durable. He's improved his plate discipline and raw power, but there's no question he's a less effective player now.

And finally, not to sound like I'm belabouring the point but a lot of these athletes in other sports did go through big declines, only, as you say, they're less noticeable in team sport settings. For instance, LeBron in '20-'21 and '21-'22 is basically a Fed '13 or Nadal '15-equivalent player...no better than 6th-7th in the world, arguably worse (based on performance in a vacuum I actually think he's 8th-10th at best)...but Fed's '13 and Nadal's '15 were horror-fests while LeBron's efforts are understandably celebrated. Being the “best of the rest” means more in team sports than tennis. If you’re a Top 5-10 player for 8-10 years in baseball, basketball or football (but no better), you’re an all-timer, an easy Hall of Famer. In tennis, it makes you Tomas Berdych.

TL;DR the aging distributions in MMA are due to a number of things and it’s not particularly older than before (although the sport itself is only 30 years old). Younger fighters will always lag behind because there’s no straight-line path to getting to the front of the queue and fighters are very frequently given opportunities long after they become championship-calibre.

Rest I either mostly agree with or can’t really be troubled to go point-for-point on but would still maintain that we can’t use only one set of outliers (the ones which support our side) as our determining factor. Despite the examples you’ve mentioned in baseball, it’s still a younger sport at the top.

I can make a more thorough comparison when time permits and contrast ‘23 with ‘13, ‘03, ‘93, ‘83…I will all but guarantee you the comparison would reveal that baseball is about as young or younger now. But I’d really prefer not to LOL.
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
bron.png
 

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
It is the beginning of an era, so thats why this is normal. Over the next 10-15 years you will find the average age increasing of the top 20 consistently with more oldies in it. The late 90s born and the 2000s borns will all be there consistently for a long time.

Tennis players don’t come in batches or eras. There may be events or circumstances that lead to more pros coming in at specific points, but there’s a continuous flow of tennis players coming in every year, like there’s graduates entering the labor market every year. So either top players are trending older.. or they’re not. GAS was always anchored on the big 3 sticking around to bring up the average age of top players. Now that only Djokovic is left, there’s no ground to stand on.
 

Razer

Legend
Tennis players don’t come in batches or eras. There may be events or circumstances that lead to more pros coming in at specific points, but there’s a continuous flow of tennis players coming in every year, like there’s graduates entering the labor market every year. So either top players are trending older.. or they’re not. GAS was always anchored on the big 3 sticking around to bring up the average age of top players. Now that only Djokovic is left, there’s no ground to stand on.
Strong eras are followed by eras because strong players make next gen weak. Then again strong players emerge, this is the cycle of life ...

If 1980s born players cannot make 1990s born players into losers then it means 1980s players are not goats to begin with, if great players emerge in 5-7 years intervals then it means previous batch is not special ... If Federer can thrash 10 years younger guys because he is goat then Djokovic and Nadal will also be able to since they are equally good

Plus if Big 3 are born in 1980s then others of 1980s who grew up with him and honed their skills will also automatically be great ....but 1990s players did not grow up with genius players so they are all weak

Someone who was a loser in 20s cannot benefit from GAS in 30s because he would be worse, so it is foolish to ask why now players are young....this is a cycle ..anyone with common sense can understand this....
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
This.

IMO it is primarily equipment stability (racquets/strings not changing much since the late 90’s) that caused tennis to lose its reputation as a young persons sport. Graphite and poly changed the meta and favoured younger players. Now it is stabilizing. Modern medicine has aided in injury recovery, but are athletes actually peaking or priming at older ages, across all sports?

It’s very much a mixed bag:




…if anything, given that certain injuries are no longer career-enders (torn ulnar collateral ligaments in baseball, torn ACL’s basketball)…and yet still those sports haven’t gotten “older” is…well, I’ll let people draw their own conclusions.
Ya I mean, people always keep saying other sports are getting older. Most of these guys, LeBron, Brady, various MLB players who have been good into their late 30s, are the exception and very far from the rule. I think Novak is of course too. But odd that there were 3 guys doing it at close to the same time for sure.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
One brief pointer…here are WAR leaderboards in ‘03 and ‘23:

2003:

Bonds - Age 39
Pujols - 23
Rodriguez - 28
Halladay - 26
Martinez - 32
Prior - 23
Giles - 25
Hudson - 28
Loaiza - 31
Sheffield - 34

2023:

Ohtani - 29
Acuna - 26
Betts - 31
Kim - 27
Franco - 22
Robert - 26
Seager - 29
Cole - 33
Freeman - 34
Tatís - 24

Don’t feel like delving deeper into baseball cuz it’s apparent even on its face it has not gotten older in any meaningful way nor have careers been extended (which again applies to football too, average career lengths even for pro-bowlers have barely budged).
 

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
The age-shift theorists on GPPD took a valid factual data point that the average age of pro tennis players has significantly increased over the last decade+, and have wrongly extrapolated that to come to conclusions that go against logic and reason. Those who claimed that on average for a pro athlete being 35 now is physically the same as being 25 had plenty of reality checks right in front of them, they simply choose to ignore all of them. They will ignore this top-20 age stat too.

Examples age-shift theorist logic

Premise: average age of pro tennis players has increased over the last decade+

Conclusions:
Sampras would have won 6 more slams and played till 36 if he had access to modern medicine and training.

Sampras was old and declined at 29, but Federer was prime at 38 because of modern medicine and training.

A 27 year old has no physical advantage over a 33 year old due to modern medicine and training.

‘Modern medicine and training’ is their favorite term, but they don’t even know what it is. They just use it to prop up their agenda. When I ask them to specify, I never get any answers.
 
Examples age-shift theorist logic

Premise: average age of pro tennis players has increased over the last decade+

Conclusions:
Sampras would have won 6 more slams and played till 36 if he had access to modern medicine and training.

Sampras was old and declined at 29, but Federer was prime at 38 because of modern medicine and training.

A 27 year old has no physical advantage over a 33 year old due to modern medicine and training.

‘Modern medicine and training’ is their favorite term, but they don’t even know what it is. They just use it to prop up their agenda. When I ask them to specify, I never get any answers.
Fantastic post
 

The Guru

Legend
No, I don’t agree that there’s been a dramatic shift on the whole, across all sports. Even just from the year you picked in our original discussion, that’s not been the case. The age distributions of top performers are similar in all four of the main North American sports.

Small, subtle changes have occurred at best, and many sports offset. Baseball is one concrete example. There were slightly more old-age outliers in the past than there have been in the last few years. Best I can tell, this is irrefutable.




This isn’t really reflected much in the age distributions of top performers, nor has average career lengths changed in any of the 4 sports we’ve discussed (American Football still comes in at a measly 3.3 years on average).



He’s definitely an outlier.

At the top, though, the amount of outliers have remained stable, even in basketball.



That’s true. Which is yet another thing that makes tennis a bit less friendly to parity than ever before. In addition to the courts/equipment enabling more single-style dominance:


…self-care has also been whittled down to a science, which does favour established players and probably inflates their (numerical) greatness relative to their predecessors.

Like I said, mixed bag.




And I also absolutely disagree with that narrative, even devoted whole posts disputing it LOL. Problem is that both sides are wrong, it’s just a matter of who’s more wrong. Tennis is older now, but it’s more due to equipment stability. It skewed younger from the late 70’s to the early 2000’s because the sport went through constant paradigm shifts. It was about as “old” before then as it is now.
Define dramatic. Is a couple years more longevity dramatic? If not then sure I agree. Again the thrust of my argument is really only that players can still be at or close to their best in their early 30s and that the steep decline doesn't happen until the back half for the best of the best nowadays.

I said from the start that I agree super longevity has always been possible in baseball because it was always more about technical ability but I do think advancements are extending careers. Again I don't think Kershaw would still be playing if this was 1980 his body would've failed him by now.

Agree to disagree and again I don't think average career length is a good measurement for what we're talking about. A bad player who washes out in two years still might have been his best ever self as a player at 30 had he kept playing but he just wasn't good enough to make it. We're talking about athlete primes here not how front offices make decisions.

I think this is just incorrect. It is the expectation now that players of that calibre remain elite at that age. Basically all of Curry's generation that were stars were elite in early and even mid 30s. Curry, Paul, Durant, Lillaird, George, Harden, Lowry, DeRozan, andButler vs what only Russ, Klay, and Griffin who faced steep declines before 35. Two of those obviously injury related. Draymond could go in either category depending on how good you think he is now.

What's the other side of the bag. What's making it mixed? I've given you a lot of reasons that make sense logically for why careers would be longer now what are the reasons why they're shorter?

See like then I don't really see how I'm wrong then. Because I pretty much agree with you. Athletes are at their best from around 23-31 (I might shift that back a year but we're splitting hairs) but the best can still sustain an elite level deeper into their 30s. Again I'm not a tennis historian so I can't say whether being good at 30 used to be abnormal. My argument is that right now 30 is part of your prime and if you're one of the greats being at or near the top past then is not abnormal.
 
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