Federer has a better chance of winning the French than Nadal does winning Wimbledon
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Docalex007
Hall of Fame
This was a rather simple question - and the poll shows it....9-0. 
Docalex007
Hall of Fame
Poor Yonex90....he should probably see a psychiatrist.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
I'll take that bet. Wimbledon is now officially a hardcourt event. Ferrero made the 4th round last year, Coria made the 4th round, Gonzo made the QF's, they couldn't dream of that result in the 90s.
A year ago everyone thought Nadal would be helpless on fast hardcourt/indoor surfaces. He beat Agassi in Canada & Ljubicic in Madrid. The kid keeps getting better & is so mentally tough.
Considering everyone plays from the baseline at Wimbledon, it wouldn't surprise me to see Nadal in the semis this year(seriously). Grosjean is one of the best grasscourt players, for pete's sake.
literally for pete's sake, as in pete sampras. this is a disgrace to wimbledon moose malloy i agree. but federer is very very good on clay and nadal is at best decent on grass. nadal doesn' know how to move on grass, and he has a terribly week serve. his huge advantage, which is crazy spin, doesn't work on grass, as the spinning ball doesnt suddnely bite the court like it does on clay or on hard, here itll just skid and not bounce up high, negating his natural talent. nadal is to wimbledon what sampras is to RG
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Dude, have you been watching Wimbledon lately? No one comes to the net, even on sitters. They just wait to hit big forehands, just like hardcourts. And how do you explain Coria & Ferrero last year? Do they flatten out groundstrokes as well?
I realize ragging on Nadal is a popular game here, but all surfaces are basically the same nowadays. The grass doesn't have bad bounces. You can play the exact same way on hardcourts at W & do well.
Check out who Roddick beat to get to the semis last year-Vanek, Bracciali, Andreev, Coria, Grosjean. You really think Nadal is incapable of beating those guys?
And here was Johansson's draw to the semis:
Ulihrach,Pavel, Tipsarevic, Mirnyi, Nalbandian
He doesn't exactly have to worry about playing Ivanisevic or Krajicek, does he?
Andres
G.O.A.T.
HEY! Bracciali is a tough task, specially on grass.Moose Malloy said:
That guy always is a threat to good players, but, he seems like he just can't win
He pushed Karlovic on grass, he pushed Roddick, and this year, he pushed Hrbaty too, twice.
Ahh, Danielle, you're my maaaan, dooog :mrgreen:
edberg505
Legend
Moose Malloy said:
Yes, both Grosjean and Ferrero hit flatter groundies than Nadal. All that excessive topsin that Nadal generates on clay and hard courts that troubles most of his opponents means nothing on grass. He may be able to get away with waiting for his opponent's errors on that other stuff but grass, nah. Not to mention his movement on grass is less than stellar.
The tennis guy
Hall of Fame
Moose Malloy said:
No, not all courts the same, even today. Wimbldeon, US Open court and indoor carpet are quite different today from any other surfaces. No surprise Nadal has struggles on these 3 surfaces because the court skid a lot. I agree other fast hardcourts, and slow hard courts are similar these days because the bounce is much higher. Nadal didn't play any tournament on carpet last year. He looked like fish out of water on both Wimbledon and US Open. I'd take Mirnyi and Nalbandian over Nadal on grass any day.
The difference between Ferrero and Coria on grass and Nadal is the former two stay on the baseline, taking the ball early while the later stays so far behind baseline. Unless Nadal can stay closer to baseline, he has very little chance on grass and US Open.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Coria hits flatter as well too, huh? If those dirtballers can flatten out, not sure why Nadal can't. Everyone said he couldn't adjust to hardcourts & look what happened. Hitting with excessive topspin wasn't supposed to work on hardcourts, according to the textbook, yet he wins.
I'm no fan of his game, but I've seen him beat Ljubicic on a fast indoor surface(while injured no less)
Ljubicic was serving a ton & taking chances, etc, playing like you should on a fast surface & he was able to handle it.
And if Coria, Gonzo, Roddick can learn to move well on grass, not sure why Nadal can't.
People on this board get too caught up in surface differences(esp since there really isn't much of a difference nowadays, according to many players) when talking about how Player A will do vs Player B.
IMO the greatest attribute of any great player isn't strokes, skills, surfaces. Its mental. Sampras & Federer were truly great players because they are mentally strong & don't waver. Even lesser talents like Hewitt & Courier(the guy's will was so strong he got to a Wimbledon final on fast grass) had it. The tour is filled with more mentally weak players than strong ones(& has been like this for many years) Guys who will tremble in the 5th set of Grand Slam Semis or Quarters(Ljubicic, Nalbandian,Gasquet, Coria, etc)
I'm more comfortable betting on someone to do well on the biggest stage that doesn't get nervous & always competes well, even on bad days. Those guys are more rarer than great ballstrikers.
Nadal is one of them.
The Pusher Terminator
Banned
Im assuming you mean in their entire lives. Since Nadal is only 19 freaking years old he has a crapload of time! Fed on the other hand has about five years and he will have to deal with nadal and other new youngsters who will get better: Monfils, Gasquet eytc etc.
The tennis guy
Hall of Fame
Moose Malloy said:
The difference is those dirt ballers stay closer to baseline while Nadal doesn't. It is a lot more difficult to hit flat 10 feet behind baseline. Just watch Nadal against Coria and Ferrero on other surfaces, the later two play against Nadal tougher on other surfaces than on clay.
I haven't seen Nadal able to stay closer to baseline on fast low bouncing surfaces. He can get away with it on high bouncing courts, he can't on low bouncing court, like US Open and Wimbledon no matter how mentally tough he is. As well as Nadal played at Canadian open last year (fast but high bouncing court), he looked like a completely different player at US Open (faster and lower bouncing court) even against S Jenkins.
We'll see.
Moose Malloy said:
That's your preference. There is alway limitation on one's game as well. There are also so many mentally stronger players who couldn't achieve on surfaces that don't fit their game that well. McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Sampras at French, Lendl at Wimbledon, etc.
The Pusher Terminator
Banned
edberg505 said:
Borg won Wibledon five years in a row with less topspin than Nadal. Raf is only 19 years old...he has a decade to win it. Fed will be in a wheelchair when Nadal is 25!! And with Fed out of the picture....Nadals stock will rise!!! But how the hell is Fed ever gonna beat Nadal on clay?
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
They all came pretty darn close to winning at their Alamo, though didn't they? And I think that they proved they could play well on their weakest surface. I didn't predict that Nadal will win Wimbledon, but that he could do well there. We shall see. If we just go by surfaces in judging why player A will beat Player B, you will see how often it doesn't go according to plan.
No one though Lendl had a chance in hell of seriously contending at Wimbledon. Yet he ended up as one the best grasscourt players in the 80s.
Ditto Borg. Bud Collins was mocking Borg when he lost there early in his career.
Be honest, did you predict that Nadal would beat Ljubicic in Madrid & Agassi in Canada last year? or that he would beat Federer in Dubai?
Or that Henman would make the '04 French Open SF?
Or that Agassi would win '92 Wimbledon?
that Courier would make the final in '93?
Or that Ferrero & Coria would make the 16's & Gonzo would make the QF's last year?
If you did, you should bet more on tennis.
edberg505
Legend
Moose Malloy said:
I did place a bet on Nadal not making it to the quarters of the US Open last year and I came up big. Look, if he can pull out a win at Wimbledon playing 3 meters behind the baseline and trying to run everything down, then he truly is the ****. I've played on grass before and I gotta tell ya, it just doesn't suit his game. The ball really doesn't give that same bounce a hard court does. If you can flatten out your shot and hover over the baseline on grass you will most likely do well. He will have to make some drastic changes. If he hopes to do well.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Nadal is very unlikely to ever win Wimbledon. Berdych, Murray, Djokovic, Monfils, Gasquet, all have better grass court games than he has.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Moose Malloy said:
Grosjean, Mirnyi, Nalbandian, would all beat Nadal on grass, without a doubt. Andreev, Bracciali, Pavel, Vanek, and Ulihrach would all have a decent chance.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Was that just a personal bet? I've never seen a sportsbook that gave odds on betting against a player.
So what about the other questions I posed(which were for tennis guy, but please join in)
Did you think Nadal would beat Agassi? I didn't & bet on Agassi. I also bet on Fed to beat Nadal at last years French. I've now learned my lesson on underestimating him(& bet on him to beat Fed in Dubai)
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
I predicted Nadal to beat Fed in Dubai since Roger was way off form that week, losing serve often to players ranked outside the top 50. I doubt I would predict Nadal to beat him the next time they play on a non-clay surface however.
I also predicted Nadal to beat Agassi in Canada.
I also predicted Nadal to beat Agassi in Canada.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Did you predict Ferrero, Coria, Gonzalez to do well at Wimbledon?
You see this predicting thing is very tricky. Things don't go according to plan.
And writing off Nadal on grass on the basis of last year(his first year as a top player) may be unwise.
You see this predicting thing is very tricky. Things don't go according to plan.
And writing off Nadal on grass on the basis of last year(his first year as a top player) may be unwise.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
Hey Hoogen, how important u think is tomorrow's match for Fed?I think its huge for the simple fact that its the best of 5 as well that the clay in Monte Carlo is similiar to that of the french open, also its Nadal.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Moose Malloy said:
I was not at all surprised to see Ferrero in the 4th round, he is a good enough player on faster surfaces to reach this round IMO. I was though definitely surprised to see Coria in the 4th round, and Gonzalez in the quarters. However I know draws can open up and players that dont fit in a round, or seem to, on a surface can be there. It is very unlikey there would be an "accidental" semifinalist however.
Nadal's game is horrable for grass in every way. Where on clay, and maybe even hard courts he is the best mover, he is not even close to the best mover on grass. His footing is shaky at best. He has huge backswings, bad for grass. He plays too far behind the baseline, bad for grass. He does not take the ball early, bad for grass(although that is the product of the last two points). His grass court game is weaker than guys his own age even.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
ACE of Hearts said:
I think it is huge mentaly for Roger, and his chances to beat Nadal at the French. After losing to him on hard courts, a win on clay would be big.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
I don't think anyone thought Johansson would make the semis last year. Or that Malisse would play Nalbandian(who was a nobody at the time) in the '02 SF's.
Or that Henman would make the French Open SF. Stranger things have happened that Nadal possibly doing well at Wimbledon.
Actually, Nadal's chances on winning Wimbledon would decrease
as time goes by. I don't think Wimbledon is maintaining that slow
surface so long, IMHO. It's embarrassing to see everyone plays
baseline in Wimbledon. They'll do something to encourage
volleyers a little bit, I'm sure. Wimbledon of last couple of
years has been an anamoly, IMHO.
Despite all that, Nadal still has a chance to win Wimbledon.
Lefty with this type of talent can do lots of things in tennis.
as time goes by. I don't think Wimbledon is maintaining that slow
surface so long, IMHO. It's embarrassing to see everyone plays
baseline in Wimbledon. They'll do something to encourage
volleyers a little bit, I'm sure. Wimbledon of last couple of
years has been an anamoly, IMHO.
Despite all that, Nadal still has a chance to win Wimbledon.
Lefty with this type of talent can do lots of things in tennis.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
I hope you're right, but I don't think so. As you've said before, the baseline game is a more appealing game for most fans.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
I think Fed would even be more dominant if that happens.:mrgreen:
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
Moose Malloy said:
The field was much weaker in 01 and 02 since it was the period between the Sampras-Agassi era and the Federer era, and with Rafter retiring after 01, and Kuerten going down with hip injuries. That is why in 2001 and 2002 you had Costa, Johansson winning slams, Ivanisevic winning his miracle Wimbledon when he was nowhere near the server he used to be(although still exceptional)all in a 2-year span. It was one of those short "lol" periods in the game.
Anyway the fact you said earlier you could easily see Nadal going through draws that included people like Nalbandian and Grosjean suggests to me you inflate his grass court skills greatly.
The Pusher Terminator
Banned
Nadal will learn how to serve and volley as Wilander did late in his career. Nadal will also play switch-handed as he is a natural righty. You guys forget that Nadal is only 19 years old! He has still not fully dveloped! Fed on the other hand has reached his peak and will only get weaker with every year!
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
The Pusher Terminator said:
Nadal is the kind of player who will reach his peak at 24 or 25. Players with his style of play never improve into their late 20s. Federer can still improve as well.
Anyway who cares if he is only 19? Gasquet, Monfils, Berdych, Murray, and Djokovic all have better games for grass than he does. Berdych, Monfils, and Murray had better results on grass than he did last year, and if one of them had played him at Wimbledon they would have beaten him.
He will learn to serve and volley? ROTFL! I am sure the other players would love him to be at the net, he would be far easier to play against anyway.
The Pusher Terminator
Banned
federerhoogenbandfan said:
Can you say : Wilander? Orginaly a pure baseliner as a teen and won the French! In 1988 he added a serve and volley dimension to his game. That year he won the Australian, The US open and The French. What is so amazng is not only did he win the Australian on GRASS but he beat all top five seeds to do it!! He also won Wimbledon in doubles. If Mats did it then surely Nadal can do it....especially since the serve and volley game has died in the modern era!
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
The Pusher Terminator said:
1. Wilander never got past the quarters of Wimbledon, not one did he even reach the semis. He did beat some top players to win in Australia on grass, but some others were missing, and the grass in Australia was alot slower than at Wimbledon.
2. What on earth is the basis to say "if Mats did it then surely Nadal can do it....". It is a little early to suggest Nadal is of equal greatness to Mats Wilander.
3. Mats had shorter swings, played closer to the baseline, and had better footing on grass than Nadal does anyway.
The Pusher Terminator said:
That's right. I mean their entire lives. You like to talk about how bold your prediction is. Now you say that Nadal has 10 years to win Wimbledon verses Fed having (this is you assumption) only has 5 to win the French. That then makes my prediction so much bolder than yours. Look at the poll numbers. If your prediction and poll are so valid about Fed never winning the French (according to you) why the even larger discrepency (check the poll, yea that's right) here when the question is posed the way I did?
SCOREBOARD.
The Pusher Terminator
Banned
federerhoogenbandfan said:
1. Wilander won Wimbledon in doubles and won the Australian on GRASS against more top players than anyone else in history. He set a world record which Baghdatis would have tied if he beat Fed at the Australian.
2. Nadal is stronger and faster than Wilander ever was. Nadal can smack the ball a lot harder than Wiander ever could have dreamed.
3. With the new grass court sneakers I do believe Nadal has better footing. Plus technology will only get better. From tennis racquets, medicine, line calls, physical fitness, sports psycology...and the fact that Nadal is not a coke head like Mats was. Thats why Nadal has a great chance. The fact is that time is on Nadals side whil Fed wil get old fast. Nadal gets stronger every year while Fed goes downhill. Just take a look at where Fed was at 19 and where Nadal is at 19!!!
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