r2473
G.O.A.T.
Who would you vote for?
http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/...o-elected-espn-2013-baseball-hall-fame-ballot
http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/...o-elected-espn-2013-baseball-hall-fame-ballot
Baseball Hall of Fame 2013
- Thread starter r2473
- Start date
stringertom
Bionic Poster
Biggio...3K hits, 7-time All-Star, multiple Gold Gloves, 50/50 doubles/SBs season, never an off-field headline. The vote is a sham if he isn't a first-ballot HOFer.
volleygirl
Rookie
Its not a sham since Biggio didnt make it. He wasnt an all time great, he was very good and hung around a long time to where he accumulated stats but he was never a guy you watched and said "this guy is an all time great." If he does make it I wont object but no big deal if he doesnt.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Wow.
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jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Bonds was a HOF before he took PED, same with Clemens. It's an absolute joke that baseball writers seem so high and mighty about the integrity of the game when there have been cheats and felons all throughout baseball history. I'm not excusing what they did, but the history of baseball cannot be told without Bonds/Clemens, and McGwire/Sosa for that matter who helped save MLB. They all should be let in IMO. Screw the PED sanctimony.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Agree 100%
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volleygirl
Rookie
I am sure Bonds' jersey and maybe his bat is in the HOF for the record of HRs he broke while cheating but he doesnt have to be enshrined. Same with Clemens and all the other frauds. They already made out by getting the huge contracts by cheating so you dont have to also reward them by enshrining them into the HOF. Good job voters.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I didn't realize that it was the writer's job to levy punishments against cheaters.
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volleygirl
Rookie
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
While your guess is incorrect, I am curious as to what lead you to hazard such a guess.
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volleygirl
Rookie
You said you didnt know the writers could levy punishments against cheaters. Didnt they set a precedent by not voting him into the HOF?
Fearsome Forehand
Professional
I think all of the steroid boys should be forever banned from the HOF. They are a disgrace to the sport. As Tilden was to tennis. As OJ was to football. I think character should matter in HOF voting. Tilden and Simpson are both HOF'ers in their respective sports, sort of an embarrassment to their sports IMHO.
Should Lance be in the biking HOF?
I also think Jack Morris should make it, next year is his last year. He came close this year.
Should Lance be in the biking HOF?
I also think Jack Morris should make it, next year is his last year. He came close this year.
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stringertom
Bionic Poster
You mean they have a "no shirts, no shoes, no enshrinement" policy in Cooperstown???
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
He was put on the ineligible list by the commissioner of baseball, and so was not on the ballot.
J
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Do you have a list?
Disgruntled Worker
Professional
I just wish the writers would come out and say why they're not letting Bonds or Clemens in. If you don't think cheaters should prosper, then say so. But Bonds and Clemens were shoe-ins into the Hall way before the PED scandals came up. And this poses another looming question: does ALex Rodriguez make it to Cooperstown? Big Papi? Manny Ramirez?
Fearsome Forehand
Professional
I think most of the users have been identified; Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Roger, Palmero, et al.
If Rose was barred for mere gambling as a manager ( and not against his own team), how does one justify not banning steroid users?
Maybe they should build an annex at Cooperstown shaped like a hypodermic needle and have a special steroid HOF section.
If Rose was barred for mere gambling as a manager ( and not against his own team), how does one justify not banning steroid users?
Maybe they should build an annex at Cooperstown shaped like a hypodermic needle and have a special steroid HOF section.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Without a "smoking gun", you sort of have to assume that everyone (or no one) from this era was taking steroids, don't you?
Otherwise it is clearly just down to prejudice / "popularity contest". Which is fine I guess, but doesn't seem "right" (not that that "right" or "wrong" have much to do with it).
The logic seems to be "lets only punish the really, really, really good steroid users that the public doesn't like". I have no problem with this mind you, but there isn't a lot of sense to it all the same (Lance, are you listening.....)
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volleygirl
Rookie
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
I think most of the users have been identified; Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Roger, Palmero, et al.
If Rose was barred for mere gambling as a manager ( and not against his own team), how does one justify not banning steroid users?
Maybe they should build an annex at Cooperstown shaped like a hypodermic needle and have a special steroid HOF section.
Rose should be in too.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
There's always the Veterans committee route to enshrinement for those snubbed by the writers...time heals many wounds; Orlando Cepeda finally made it in '99, twenty plus years after doing federal hard time for drug dealing.
It makes a lot of sense to me.
While you think the process is some sort of selective vendetta, I think it’s strategic and utilizing 80/20 rule.
Without having unlimited personnel and resources, the MLB and cycling are trying to clean up their sports by taking down the top guys, the ring leaders, hoping for increased public awareness and a domino effect. I know it’s cliché but the best way to neutralize a snake is to cut off its head. We all know how difficult and expensive it is to go after a guy like Bonds or Armstrong.
A step in a right direction, don’t you think? The first step is always the hardest and I applaud them for it.
Disgruntled Worker
Professional
Jeez, I'm sick of all this steroid talk. Let's talk about a sport where absolutely no doping takes place... Who do you think is gonna win the Australian Open?
volleygirl
Rookie
I think most of the users have been identified; Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Roger, Palmero, et al.
If Rose was barred for mere gambling as a manager ( and not against his own team), how does one justify not banning steroid users?
Maybe they should build an annex at Cooperstown shaped like a hypodermic needle and have a special steroid HOF section.
Rose signed a LIFETIME ban so he knew what he was doing. Sure his play on the field was HOF worthy but if you try and screw over the sport that made you what you were, you gotta pay. Saying he didnt bet against his team so he should be in makes no sense though. By choosing to not bet on his team on certain days shows he may have totally spent his bullpen the day before on the game he did bet on at the expense of the upcoming game he wasnt gonna bet on so he was not legitimately managing each game to win.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
LOL...10 chuckles!
r2473
G.O.A.T.
As is often the case, I think most people make up their minds first, and only then do they look for facts to back up their opinion (prejudice); not the other way around. Everyone "knows" Clemens, Bonds, etc don't "deserve" to be in the HOF, and everyone "knows" Biggio does. Now we just have to selectively look at things to support our view (you guys know that Biggio played pretty much the exact same years as Bonds and Clemens, right?).
maverick66
Hall of Fame
Its kinda funny to me.
Baseball after their strike was hurting bad. Everything was down from ratings to attendance. Than these two guys came along and hit the ball a freaking mile and baseball was back. Than Bonds blew up and San Francisco was back on the map. And Clemens stayed dominant in an era of guys hitting the ball a mile.
Now after they helped get baseball back on track they are shunned along with almost every other star of the generation. Maybe they should open up a PED wing of Cooperstown because these guys deserve some kind of credit for carrying the sport all those years.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Poor Barry BOnds Poor Roger Clements Let 'em all in I say! And give Lance Armstrong his yellow jackets back.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Let 'em all in I say! And give Lance Armstrong his yellow jackets back.
It's too bad to punish the (all time) greats of the sport just because they have been relegated to the status of "steroid poster boy / everything that is wrong with the sport" in the minds of the public. But at the same time, give a free pass to all the other steroid boys...just because they weren't quite as good as these guys.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
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volleygirl
Rookie
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
maverick66
Hall of Fame
Different animal.
Pete Rose used his position as manager to bet on his games. He bet on games he played in. Everyone knows thats a big no no since the Black Sox scandal. Also Rose was thrown out of the league something Clemens and Bonds never had happen.
These guys where doing things that the league knew of. Of course they knew that the players where on funky things but they didnt care until all the sudden PED's became public knowledge. Now the players they rode to financial gain are being tossed aside.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
My question is if MLB didn't punish them, and they weren't punished under criminal law, where in the wild blue f*** do the people that write about them in newspapers get off thinking it is their right to punish them?
MLB has hundreds of positive steroid tests on players in the 2000s and they don't tell anyone about them, and they inflict no punishment on the players. (Just like A-Rod who's positive test was leaked by congress)
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
I was referring to some of the posts on this thread.
(I get the feeling you don't like me much)
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I wouldn't take anything personally. I think it just gets off on acting superior to others. I'm sure you have met people who walk around wearing glasses that give them the illusion that they are endowed with knowledge that other moronic plebians are ignorant of.
J
I understand your point; however I can’t seem to see any injustice or feel sorry for these guys. After all they are guilty. That puts all of their achievements in questions. Could they have been all time greats without PED or it just meant that PED worked better for them comparing to others.
As for other lesser steroid boys, there are a lot going on behind the scene that we do not know. May be there are other silent bans. Maybe they were given warnings and stopped while the likes of Clemens and Bonds didn’t. Who knows?
We’d like to arrest all the drunk drivers too, but we can’t. I sure don’t feel sorry for the few that are caught and punished since it deters many others from doing the same.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
What year did steroid use become illegal according to MLB rules?
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Dedans Penthouse
Legend
nah, volleygirl's a babe and you're a dude ... as sure as barry bonds is a juiced-up balloon head
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volleygirl
Rookie
Exactly. Faye Vincent has said time and time again these supplements were banned even though the players and agents keep saying they werent against the rules when we took them. They were against the rules, its just the players union wouldnt allow any testing or punishment do be done for cheating.
If anyone heard Jim Romes interview today with Goose Gossage, you will hear an adament NO to all the cheaters and I have heard him and others say no HOFers will ever show up to the HOF for these events if these cheaters are voted in.
maverick66
Hall of Fame
They became the poster boys of the steroid era. The press hates Bonds because he wasnt the nicest guy to deal with and they will never let that go. Its all a show to try and make an example out of certain guys but its honestly a big black eye on the MLB not the players.
I just dont see how you can keep the most dominant hitter of his era out of the hall.
volleygirl
Rookie
Bonds has the most MVPs and Clemens has the most Cy Youngs ever but like Goose Gossage said, "theyre accomplishments are all hollow so it really doesnt matter what their stats are." We will just have to agree to disagree on whether they should be voted in or not.
maverick66
Hall of Fame
I really dont care what Goose Gossage says. Eckersley said the same thing and i still dont care.
you dont block out an entire period of time because of this. You cant allow a single person in from the time period if thats the attitude because if you think it was only the top dogs taking stuff you are very naive.
volleygirl
Rookie
They arent going to have to block out an entire period of time, just the cheaters. There are going to be HOFers from this era. Next year Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and maybe Frank Thomas will get in and there will be guys getting in, there just wont be some of the biggest names and thats fine since they chose to take the big payday that came with cheating, but now they get to pay it back by NEVER being enshrined with the all time greats.
Angle Queen
Professional
Hmmm, dare I enter the fray?
Like volleygirl, I'm also of the female persuasion. She obviously has both a love and history of the game, as do I. I was a 20-year season ticket holder at a very prominent AAA ballclub, have seen many "stars" both before and "after" their careers...and damn-near followed The Game since Johnny Bench and The Big Red Machine strutted their stuff.
The BBWAA rarely votes anyone in on their first go-round. Less than 50 men....EVER....out of the 1000s of men who've ever played professionally, were tapped in at first chance and they, quite literally, are the Who's Who of Baseball. Anyone who has ever followed The Game knows their names.
This year's crop, with perhaps the exception of Clemens (IMHO) were....ehhh. Bonds was a good but nothing spectacular, almost airhead, outfielder...first with the Pirates then shuffled out to SF. The 'roids clearly made a difference in his at-plate performances. Otherwise, he'd be in the same category as guys like Piazza or Biggio. Solid, even stellar...but not necessarily HOF-worthy.
Don't get me wrong. In my heart, I know there are "cheats" in the HOF. But somehow, I can't quite equate spitballs and sharpened spikes to injecting drugs and betting on any game's outcome.
Like volleygirl, I'm also of the female persuasion. She obviously has both a love and history of the game, as do I. I was a 20-year season ticket holder at a very prominent AAA ballclub, have seen many "stars" both before and "after" their careers...and damn-near followed The Game since Johnny Bench and The Big Red Machine strutted their stuff.
The BBWAA rarely votes anyone in on their first go-round. Less than 50 men....EVER....out of the 1000s of men who've ever played professionally, were tapped in at first chance and they, quite literally, are the Who's Who of Baseball. Anyone who has ever followed The Game knows their names.
This year's crop, with perhaps the exception of Clemens (IMHO) were....ehhh. Bonds was a good but nothing spectacular, almost airhead, outfielder...first with the Pirates then shuffled out to SF. The 'roids clearly made a difference in his at-plate performances. Otherwise, he'd be in the same category as guys like Piazza or Biggio. Solid, even stellar...but not necessarily HOF-worthy.
Don't get me wrong. In my heart, I know there are "cheats" in the HOF. But somehow, I can't quite equate spitballs and sharpened spikes to injecting drugs and betting on any game's outcome.
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