Source of motivation when playing with pushers

torpantennis · Jun 13, 2013

This thread has been started after my posting to thread: "Player evolution: Pusher vs. Ballbasher". Then I got a comment:

pushitgood said:
If losing to pushers demotivates you, then how motivated can you truly be?

I started to think of it more and this brought me to the key question: What motivates you in this sport? This thread is started on the purpose of building a source of motivation and excitement for the matches against pushers, which I seriously lack. I hope this thread will also be helpful for all the other people who have the same problems.

So first of all: I'd like to hear, what are the things that excite and motivate you in this sport. Then I wish that I get some good ideas for developing excitement for these matches against pushers.

So what motivates myself? After thinking for it a while, it was clear that the thing I'm most addicted to in tennis is all this high speed grinding and explosive movement, when the ball is moving from left to right, and I need to run for my life to get to it. Whenever I play a match with a good enough opponent, I get really excited and enjoy all the sweating that comes by. Whether I win or lose doesn't matter.

But when I see that a pushing opponent hits only slow blockings that have no pace or spin, everything changes. I'm no longer running wildly around, I have all the time in the world and kinda lose the interest. So the problem is, I don't see any (physical) challenge and that's what demotivates. The end result is that I make a lot of stupid mistakes on easy balls, and keep losing these matches. So in order to win these matches and get more (physically) challenging matches in future, I need to develop another source of excitement for these matches. It cannot be the physical challenge. Any ideas?

LeeD · Jun 13, 2013

Me, what keeps me on the tennis court.....
Big fast pinpoint serves. Don't really care how it's returned.
Solid deep, well placed volleys, especially volleys from below my hip level.
Strong groundies that leave the opponent off balanced, but they need to be solid, hit hard, well placed.
Solid LOW returns of serves, short NML deep, that skid and careen crazily off to the side, giving me an angle to move to net position.
And to the letter, quote of your last paragraph. Just don't care to grind, as for me, grinding is work, and I avoid work at all costs.

LuckyR · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
This thread has been started after my posting to thread: "Player evolution: Pusher vs. Ballbasher". Then I got a comment:

I started to think of it more and this brought me to the key question: What motivates you in this sport? This thread is started on the purpose of building a source of motivation and excitement for the matches against pushers, which I seriously lack. I hope this thread will also be helpful for all the other people who have the same problems.

So first of all: I'd like to hear, what are the things that excite and motivate you in this sport. Then I wish that I get some good ideas for developing excitement for these matches against pushers.

So what motivates myself? After thinking for it a while, it was clear that the thing I'm most addicted to in tennis is all this high speed grinding and explosive movement, when the ball is moving from left to right, and I need to run for my life to get to it. Whenever I play a match with a good enough opponent, I get really excited and enjoy all the sweating that comes by. Whether I win or lose doesn't matter.

But when I see that a pushing opponent hits only slow blockings that have no pace or spin, everything changes. I'm no longer running wildly around, I have all the time in the world and kinda lose the interest. So the problem is, I don't see any (physical) challenge and that's what demotivates. The end result is that I make a lot of stupid mistakes on easy balls, and keep losing these matches. So in order to win these matches and get more (physically) challenging matches in future, I need to develop another source of excitement for these matches. It cannot be the physical challenge. Any ideas?

I guess I am too simple minded to get this high falootin' conversation.

Since tennis is a game, my motivation is win in matchplay (assuming that it is not a onesided social match). Not only is tennis a game (with Winners and losers) but every single point you win is a loss for the other guy, pretty darn motivating psychologically for those with a killer instinct (this is very different from popular sports in the US) like myself.

If we are just hitting I am motivated by improving my game so I can... win in matchplay.

What else is there?

torpantennis · Jun 13, 2013

LuckyR said:
I guess I am too simple minded to get this high falootin' conversation.

Since tennis is a game, my motivation is win in matchplay

It's like this in good matches. But what if your opponent is a real pusher, hitting zero pace shots and offering you should-be-easy sitters all the time. You feel like you're not being challenged at all. Would you consider it rewarding if you're able to beat him?

I'd not. I need some kind of a challenge. A goal of some sort that pushes me to limit.

LeeD · Jun 13, 2013

"what else is there"........ a good question and thought provoking topic...
When I'm on my deathbed, it's not wins or loses, but specific shots that stimulate my memories of tennis.
When I'm on my deathbed, it's not placing 3rd in 250 Production my first racing season at 17 years of age, but it's the rememberance of sliding from a 5th place start to a 1st place lead on my 3rd race, when nobody slid thru turns on a road racing bike, and keeping the technique thru that turn over and over again, gaining yards a lap, just in that one off camber left turn...
When I'm on my deathbed, I might remember waterski competition for a bit, probably not. I won't think about any of my 5th place jumps in Men's 11, I'll only relish that one lucky jump into a strong headwind, Delta course, when somehow I hit a 120'er in competition, my first year of waterski jumping.
When Im' on my deathbed, thinking about my 25 year surfing career, it will not be of any wins in competition, or any dominating days when the cards fall just right. It WILL be of that one day at VFW's that cause half the pack of 15 guys (all on gun board bigger than 8'), to cry and really worry about making it back to shore, with 15' + waves breaking 500 yards outside of us, luckily off to the N or S.
When I"m on my deathbed, thought wandering over to a short 1 season kiteboarding career, I won't be thinking about a 13th place finish in the Bridge to Bridge (13th kiteboarder, 27 overall), but I'll be thinking of that very first day I got up, gusty offshore 12-35 mph winds, Alameda, when every questioned my judgement going out, and I was using a 3.5 Kitesurfer foil kite, and had absolutely NO problems getting up, getting upwind, and riding back to shore.
And over 300 motocross races, what will remain in my memories? Not any of my successes for sure. Certainly a big crash my first race, but more likely, the FEELING of railing a berm, leg under the handlebars, footpegs dragging, and handlebars a foot off the ground......
Some of you may obsess over winning, but for me, the FEEL of living is a much brighter color.

counterfeit25 · Jun 13, 2013

I didn't follow the original thread, but losing to pushers motivates me tremendously. When I lose to a "pusher", I get extremely upset at my seemingly incompetent level of tennis, and I become very motivated to go out on the practice court and drill until my legs turn to jelly, and repeat. During practice, I relive the memories of that loss, and I won't stop practicing. Then, I relish the opportunity to challenge the "pusher" once more =)

Beating lower-level pushers though, that is demotivating. It's very boring.

Topspin Shot · Jun 13, 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W42iiCcFbxE

LeeD · Jun 13, 2013

Yup, and he's out of football!

newpball · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
The end result is that I make a lot of stupid mistakes on easy balls, and keep losing these matches.

Seems you have a great opportunity to improve your game. :lol:
Because let's face it making mistakes on easy balls is a beginners level, and of course there is nothing wrong with that

torpantennis said:
So in order to win these matches and get more (physically) challenging matches in future, I need to develop another source of excitement for these matches. It cannot be the physical challenge. Any ideas?

Well frankly I think you are fooling yourself. If you lose a game it generally means that the other player is better than you.

Looks like you are not facing reality and instead you try to find excuses.

"You know I can beat Federer easily! Yeah I know he beat me 6-0, 6-0, but if I really put my mind to it and get motivated I'll splash him" :grin:

Let me at em, I'll splash him!

user92626 · Jun 13, 2013

Torpa,

IMO, you set yourself up with all kinds of fallacies and that's why you get confused, directionless and inevitably demotivated/bored.

You wrongly hold contempt for those you called 'pushers'.
When you can't hit their shots you mistakenly think they're easy and your mistakes are stupid.

It can't be fun for anyone to play with those whom they hate and think whatever he/she does is stupid.

Why don't you change your attitude and see reality as it is? Drop the labels. There are only good or bad opponents in term of points. Once in you enter a match, respect your opponent. If you don't respect them don't play with them in the first place. Respect has nothing to do with tennis. Mistakes are challenges that you have not overcome yet. Don't make up excuses that certain mistakes are easy, stupid and not worth your time.

torpantennis · Jun 13, 2013

counterfeit25 said:
I didn't follow the original thread, but losing to pushers motivates me tremendously. When I lose to a "pusher", I get extremely upset at my seemingly incompetent level of tennis, and I become very motivated to go out on the practice court and drill until my legs turn to jelly, and repeat.

What kind of drills do you use to practice beating the pushers? My problem is that all my hitting partners use full strokes, so I don't see these loose balls in practices.

torpantennis · Jun 13, 2013

user92626 said:
When you can't hit their shots you mistakenly think they're easy and your mistakes are stupid.

It can't be fun for anyone to play with those whom they hate and think whatever he/she does is stupid.

True, every word. The problem is, due to lack of physical challenge, I also tend to lose the mental alertness in these matches. So I need a clear goal (getting to the balls is not hard enough) to keep the stuff FEEL as challenging from start to finish. Then the mental alertness remains good throughout the match.

Maybe I should start toying around, dropshots and lobs

Then I would have a good challenging goal for each and every stroke, similar to the "more challenging" matches where I need to run for many balls?

Avles · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
But when I see that a pushing opponent hits only slow blockings that have no pace or spin, everything changes. I'm no longer running wildly around, I have all the time in the world and kinda lose the interest. So the problem is, I don't see any (physical) challenge and that's what demotivates.

Running down shots is one part of the physical challenge in tennis. It's the easiest part for most reasonably athletic people.

The biggest physical challenge in tennis, the thing that makes it a skill sport, is hitting a good shot once you get to the ball, or once it gets to you.

I like running around like a madman too-- that's one reason I prefer singles. But ultimately tennis is about making the shots.

newpball · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
Maybe I should start toying around, dropshots and lobs

What is your level?

torpantennis · Jun 13, 2013

newpball said:
What is your level?

I've no clue of NTRP, I'm a´not an American. But I've been hitting actively 2-3 times a week for 1 year. Before that, couple of years max once a week.

The stuff I'm writing might sound confusing. My problem really is, that I'm able to get BACK quite many surprisingly hard balls, when being CHALLENGED. My running forehand is surprisingly good. I use the split steps etc. But when I get these easy balls, I kinda stop all this active footwork, due to not feeling as being challenged. Then because of this mental lack, the stroke itself of course fails miserably.

So this is a mental problem in practice. Any ideas how to keep myself concentrated, when NOT being challenged?

LeeD · Jun 13, 2013

Lots of inexperienced players find that same problem, to motivate when not physically challenged. By "inexperienced", I'm not slighting you. Most of us have played for over 20 years, and I have been playing since 1974.
The challenge is to win against the guy across the net, not only to hit great shots and play exciting tennis. Don't care HOW they play, just beat them and move on.

counterfeit25 · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
What kind of drills do you use to practice beating the pushers? My problem is that all my hitting partners use full strokes, so I don't see these loose balls in practices.

To practice against paceless balls, one option is to of course have a hitting session with a pusher. But as you may have observed, pushers do not like to just hit around, they usually like to play matches. Or, when they just hit around, they start to hit with pace (unfortunately, in this case).

To practice against the paceless balls, you can do some ball feed drills, where your partner feeds you the type of paceless ball you struggle with most, e.g. floating backspin sitters (not as easy as it looks on TV =\), low chip slices, topspin moonballs, floaty sitter angle shots (need good footwork!), etc. Or have him deliberately give you that ball during a rally (e.g. rally cross court with him, and when you go DTL, have him deliberately give you a cream puff to attack). You can be creative with the drills, to find one that isolates a particular problem area you have.

An important thing is to find a partner who also wants to do fed ball drills, so you two can alternate who feeds the ball. Good luck! And more importantly, have fun!

10isfreak · Jun 13, 2013

user92626 said:
Why don't you change your attitude and see reality as it is? Drop the labels. There are only good or bad opponents in term of points.

Actually, I have to disagree with this. Good or bad depends upon how you conceptualize the game. His interpretation is as valid as yours and it's internally consistent.

Besides, you misused the notion of fallacy. Something fallacious must violate the rules of proper inferences. Fallacies concern validity; falsehood concerns veracity. You challenged the veracity of his conclusion by your argument, not its logical validity.

He comes to a different conclusion than you, not because he's making a logical mistake, but because he doesn't use the same premises. If you wish to engage into a further debate with him, start with what you disagree about, namely the concepts of "good" and "bad" in terms of tennis.

user92626 · Jun 13, 2013

counterfeit25 said:
To practice against paceless balls, one option is to of course have a hitting session with a pusher. But as you may have observed, pushers do not like to just hit around, they usually like to play matches. Or, when they just hit around, they start to hit with pace (unfortunately, in this case).

Or how about come up with your own theories, check with this board, about beating pushers and continue to play matches with them and test your theories?

Are you on some sort of ranking system or with stakes on the line that you need to play matches sparingly?

When I come to the courts, it's all the same for me whether I rally with old men, women, horse around or play a match or whack some balls. What difference does it make?

10isfreak · Jun 13, 2013

When you play pushers, you can always use the net to great effect. It doesn't seem like that, but closing the books from within the service box isn't that easy. It's also pretty fun (at least for me) and, when you face players who have trouble with pace and top spin, it's a REALLY good place to be.

If you're not good at the net, it's a good time to start!

LeeD said:
The challenge is to win against the guy across the net, not only to hit great shots and play exciting tennis. Don't care HOW they play, just beat them and move on.

How did you say that? The color of feeling alive is much brighter to you than winning or loosing, isn't it? Currently, this person seems to be enjoying tennis as an entertaining sport and you have to keep that mindset in mind when you give him an advice. He won't turn tennis into a chore.

LeeD · Jun 13, 2013

I know, I"m out of character there.
I've been playing tennis since wood rackets were the only offerings.
I"ve lost more matches than anyone would care to count. Did manage to win a few.
I do know wishful thinking from reality, and theory from real world practice.
I often preach the art form, but know winning or losing is a part of the equation, no matter what.

counterfeit25 · Jun 13, 2013

user92626 said:
Or how about come up with your own theories, check with this board, about beating pushers and continue to play matches with them and test your theories?

Are you on some sort of ranking system or with stakes on the line that you need to play matches sparingly?

When I come to the courts, it's all the same for me whether I rally with old men, women, horse around or play a match or whack some balls. What difference does it make?

Please read my 1st post. "relish the opportunity to challenge the "pusher" once more". So yes, play matches with them after you practice, and test your skills and "theories". Obviously, if I'm not playing any matches, there is no point to practice the specific problem areas that I find... in matches.

Just curious, do you think drills are useless? I find it hard to improve my tennis by playing matches only, and think about theories. However, if I play matches and think about theories AND perform drills, it's better.

counterfeit25 · Jun 13, 2013

user92626 said:
Or how about come up with your own theories, check with this board, about beating pushers and continue to play matches with them and test your theories?

Are you on some sort of ranking system or with stakes on the line that you need to play matches sparingly?

When I come to the courts, it's all the same for me whether I rally with old men, women, horse around or play a match or whack some balls. What difference does it make?

Oops, forgot you had 2 more questions =)

"Are you on some sort of ranking system or with stakes on the line that you need to play matches sparingly? "

No. But I played a couple tournaments a while ago, where the opposite is true.

"When I come to the courts, it's all the same for me whether I rally with old men, women, horse around or play a match or whack some balls. What difference does it make?"

Different players hit different types of shots, and have different playstyles, strengths, weaknesses, etc. It's good to experience playing a wide variety of players. It is also good to do drills.

Lukhas · Jun 13, 2013

Hitting some inside-out backhands. Really, training my backhands as I tend to have the Federer/Nadal tendency to let my forehand do the job for me and run around the BH when I can to hit some more forehands... except that I play nothing like them of course. :lol:

GuyClinch · Jun 13, 2013

When you play pushers, you can always use the net to great effect. It doesn't seem like that, but closing the books from within the service box isn't that easy. It's also pretty fun (at least for me) and, when you face players who have trouble with pace and top spin, it's a REALLY good place to be.

3.5/4.0 level pushers (the most fearsome type) are pretty handy with volleys. Actually a volley for them is very close to their normal push so its not a huge adjustment. In addition ANY pusher worth his salt is FANTASTIC at hitting lobs. So I say this strategy won't work.

So no if you beat some guy by dragging him to the net - he is just an inferior player. In truth most people on the forums who complain about "pushers" aren't facing pushers at all - just superior players who play within themselves.

Don't get me wrong when you are at the 3.0 level and think you are 'pretty good' getting smacked around by one of the super pushers is pretty awful if you do play one. But I don't think everyone has. Its quite a shock.

But there isn't any easy recipe to beat a pusher like "take them to the net." The major way to beat a pusher is you have to be able to 'do something' with what I have heard called an opportunity ball. These are balls that are a little shorter and a little slower then is ideal. They don't put you on the defensive. They are 'easy' shots for good players.

Once you can start to punish these - pushers don't stand a chance. But pushers know that most players under 4.0 can't. And so they win. Pushers just expose that most people actually suck. So they drive folks insane.

Avles · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
The stuff I'm writing might sound confusing. My problem really is, that I'm able to get BACK quite many surprisingly hard balls, when being CHALLENGED. My running forehand is surprisingly good. I use the split steps etc. But when I get these easy balls, I kinda stop all this active footwork, due to not feeling as being challenged. Then because of this mental lack, the stroke itself of course fails miserably.

Well, many people find harder shots easier to return, because they can use the incoming pace. Some people find running forehands easier than "stationary" forehands, because they don't have to focus on setting up right and they can respond more instinctively.

Maybe you could challenge yourself to use good footwork and technique even on seemingly easy balls, which often are not really that easy. Or you could take up dodgeball.

GuyClinch · Jun 13, 2013

Well, many people find harder shots easier to return, because they can use the incoming pace. Some people find running forehands easier than "stationary" forehands, because they don't have to focus on setting up right and they can respond more instinctively.

Yup, every victim of a pusher feels this way. Watch this match I found on youtube. The guy in green does use some spin but I think he is pretty much a pusher..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yyz8uhQ5lA

There are lots of 'opportunity balls' that the guy in white should have handled better. In truth its not easy to do. You need to go out and practice learning how to hit these low pace shots with authority into the court..

Pushers just take advantage of the opposing players ego - and their corresponding lack of skill. You think you can punish these easy shots because you can return faster ones. But that's just not true at all. It's hard.

pushitgood · Jun 13, 2013

A good way to approach losses is to make an honest appraisal of why you lost. This is easier said than done because ego can get in the way or you may lack the knowledge and competence to identify what you did (or didn't do) that caused you to lose (see Dunning-Kruger effect). The key thing is to identify areas requiring improvement rather than blaming your loss on external factors. Once you've identified the areas you need to work on, you put in the time and work on them. Then you use those new skills in match situations and see what happens. Rinse and repeat as many times as necessary. Over time this will lead to your evolution and growth as a player, and your appreciation for the game will deepen. Hopefully you'll come to enjoy the learning process in and of itself, rather than letting your feelings about tennis hinge upon your win/loss record or what the guy on the other side of the net is doing. The difference here is between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

pushitgood · Jun 13, 2013

Just one other thing to add: If ripping tennis balls and running side-to-side is what motivates you, that's totally okay. Just stick to playing with your buddies and avoid pushers and you won't have to deal with the disappointing losses. But what you're really doing is the same thing that many accuse pushers of: staying in your comfort zone and denying yourself the chance to grow and evolve as a player.

Thepowerofchoice · Jun 13, 2013

torpantennis said:
True, every word. The problem is, due to lack of physical challenge, I also tend to lose the mental alertness in these matches. So I need a clear goal (getting to the balls is not hard enough) to keep the stuff FEEL as challenging from start to finish. Then the mental alertness remains good throughout the match.

Maybe I should start toying around, dropshots and lobs Then I would have a good challenging goal for each and every stroke, similar to the "more challenging" matches where I need to run for many balls?

Really??? I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it this more physical demanding to play against pushers. You would need to have better footwork for sure to be able to beat them. May be you need to go up against some fit "skilled" pushers

t135 · Jun 13, 2013

LeeD said:
Me, what keeps me on the tennis court.....
Big fast pinpoint serves. Don't really care how it's returned.
Solid deep, well placed volleys, especially volleys from below my hip level.
Strong groundies that leave the opponent off balanced, but they need to be solid, hit hard, well placed.
Solid LOW returns of serves, short NML deep, that skid and careen crazily off to the side, giving me an angle to move to net position.
And to the letter, quote of your last paragraph. Just don't care to grind, as for me, grinding is work, and I avoid work at all costs.

101010

10isfreak · Jun 13, 2013

GuyClinch said:
3.5/4.0 level pushers (the most fearsome type) are pretty handy with volleys. Actually a volley for them is very close to their normal push so its not a huge adjustment. In addition ANY pusher worth his salt is FANTASTIC at hitting lobs. So I say this strategy won't work.

(1) When you learn to play the net, bother learning how to smash and how to position yourself;

(2) Pushers as you defined them won't hit a topspin lob and will always rely on a defensive one, which is easier to track and smash;

(3) Even if volleys might better fall in their strike zone, well executed volleys are super hard to retrieve and they usually bring floaters as reply (see point one for the importance of being able to smash at the net).

10isfreak · Jun 13, 2013

pushitgood said:
But what you're really doing is the same thing that many accuse pushers of: staying in your comfort zone and denying yourself the chance to grow and evolve as a player.

It's true.

As a general advice to people out there, tennis is about playing YOUR game. You have to find a way to bring your opponent to give you the balls you want to hit, to put in into situations that gives you an edge over them.

Federer still has one of the meanest forehands on the tour. How did he play tennis when he was a baseline monster? Everything he did at the baseline had the purpose of giving him an inside forehand to play. He was working to get into that situation. His whole backhand game was a tool to set up his forehand. The reason he developed such a knifing slice is that he forced his opponents to dig it and everyone -- EXCEPT NADAL -- couldn't consistently hit a good shot off such a wonderful slice. If you didn't hit a good cross-court, Federer was already set to hit a forehand... it was too late.

That's how you play tennis. Find the shot or series of shots you need to use so that your opponent makes the mistake of sending you the ball you want to see.

Some people will take an advice like the one I gave and they'll try to become serve and volley player against pushers, every once in a while. No... that's a variation that you can use. If you're not good at it, don't over do it. If your thing is to hit this damn flat forehand cross court, but you like your contact point to be a little higher than your waist, prefer a deeper ball to get some distance for safety, etc., then force your pusher to send you one of these. He's an amateur, like you -- he's bound to leave one longer and slightly higher at some point. You just need to find HOW to get it.

As the match evolves, he'll learn what you do and you'll have to adjust once more. But that's tennis.

GuyClinch · Jun 14, 2013

(1) When you learn to play the net, bother learning how to smash and how to position yourself;

Yes if you are good at the net - you can beat a pusher by going to the net. But the thing is - if you aren't good - they aren't particularly weak at it.. So its not like some easy win strategy. It's not really a good go-to strategy..

It's one of those strategies that tennis coaches will push but doesn't work out well in real life. Like the tennis strategy that both net players in doubles really should be at the net. That's a fine strategy for 4.0 and higher doubles players. Its not so good for run of the mill 3.0s and 3.5s. They can't cover the lobs. It turns out 3.0/3.5 doubles teams tend to be wicked good at lobs - so its better to have a guy back there to cover em - despite the holes it opens up with the one up one back strategy.

(2) Pushers as you defined them won't hit a topspin lob and will always rely on a defensive one, which is easier to track and smash;

True enough. But a good defensive lob is harder for a 3.0/3.5 to deal with then a hardish passing shot right too them. Pushers will tire you out making you chase down lobs. Pushers lack of ego and willingness to play the safe lob makes advance to the net against them frustrating for the average player. Its good if you want to practice chasing down lobs though.

(3) Even if volleys might better fall in their strike zone, well executed volleys are super hard to retrieve and they usually bring floaters as reply (see point one for the importance of being able to smash at the net).

Yeah listen if you have a good net game - by all means go to the net. <g> I agree. My point simply was that pushers are by no means especially weak against net play. I think in general pushers are handier at the net then the 3.0/3.5 guys who are trying to move up the levels playing 'pro style.' These guys try to hit passing shots and tend to fail at it some..

A pushers complete lack of ego makes them a rough opponent against alot of playing styles.

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

pushitgood said:
Just one other thing to add: If ripping tennis balls and running side-to-side is what motivates you, that's totally okay. Just stick to playing with your buddies and avoid pushers and you won't have to deal with the disappointing losses. But what you're really doing is the same thing that many accuse pushers of: staying in your comfort zone and denying yourself the chance to grow and evolve as a player.

This has been quite active a discussion. What I now understand is that I haven't actually been doing STUPID mistakes. I've just played on the terms of the pusher, by staying in my own comfort zone, hitting balls hard from the back of the court. That's exactly what the pushers want.

I kinda now also understand more where the pushers' game is based on. I previously thought that they just want to get all the balls back and wait for an opponent to finally make a mistake. Now I think different. I think they rather base on giving opponent the FEELING that they make STUPID mistakes. They wanna mess the opponents game by this.

So what would be a higher quality version of a pusher? I've always thought that it's the counter-puncher, but now I think that it's the spinmeister. I mean think on what is the spinmeisters' game based on? Giving opponent this same feeling that they make stupid mistakes!

So what is the best tactics against a spinmeister (or pusher)? Making them taste their own medicine! I think I'll now start practicing dropshots. Dropshots should be quite easy on these zero pace balls. My passing shots and lobs are quite ok already. These matches can now turn into a lot of fun!

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

Thepowerofchoice said:
Really??? I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it this more physical demanding to play against pushers. You would need to have better footwork for sure to be able to beat them. May be you need to go up against some fit "skilled" pushers

Maybe we're not talking about the same animal? At lower levels these pushers just use gravity-based pushing tecnique. I cannot see how you could use this pushing tecnique at higher levels to accurately place the ball from side to side. Maybe you're talking about counter-punchers? They can put the same incoming pace into their shots by using proper compact strokes, and then can make you run. But I don't see how you can control higher pace with the pushing technique.

Lukhas · Jun 14, 2013

Practice the putaway. Noticed I struggle with serves bouncing him high (I prefer balls a bit higher), in the middle of the service box. I crush the putaway too much and hit the net, despite having all the time in Earth. Easier to use the opponent's pace to hit counters than providing the power by yourself. Yes, I have one in my "lesson group" whose serve barely clear the net, on clay. He doesn't want to be a pusher, he isn't just skilled enough to do something else, when he tries to hit, it goes in the sky. And I'm not concentrated enough on groundies and tend to fall asleep during the rallies, being very lazy on placement or technique, therefore I'm able to loose all by myself. I don't take it hard since I don't like matches, but yeah, I lack concentration an motivation.

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

Lukhas said:
Practice the putaway.

Most definitely a good thing in the long run, and good tactics for better players. But the pusher most probably can get to the putaway, and forces you to hit a smash. Then there are two challenging strokes, putaway and smash, where you can make a mistake. Shouldn't you rather eliminate the possibility to play pushing, by getting the pusher to net and then passing/lobbing him?

NLBwell · Jun 14, 2013

Punish the Pusher!
The pusher will always win if you don't make him pay for just dumping the ball in the middle of the court.
Think of it as doing a public good for all the non-pushers out there.
It is a mental challenge to punish the pusher. You must move your feet, get into position, and hit the ball to force the pusher into a bad position.

Thepowerofchoice · Jun 14, 2013

torpantennis said:
Maybe we're not talking about the same animal? At lower levels these pushers just use gravity-based pushing tecnique. I cannot see how you could use this pushing tecnique at higher levels to accurately place the ball from side to side. Maybe you're talking about counter-punchers? They can put the same incoming pace into their shots by using proper compact strokes, and then can make you run. But I don't see how you can control higher pace with the pushing technique.

May be you're right. May be I'm talking about counter-puncher that give you little pace but great at retrieving all the balls and redirect them. Btw that is the way I play against hard hitters. I was a former pusher and developed into all court counter-puncher junkballer (slicing from both wing). I can hit hard but prefer to use incoming pace and control the temple of the game. I also come to the net often to finish the point. I guess my strength of my game is to never let my opponent get into any rhythm.

Since I prefer not to bash on the ball in the real match (I'm 4.0) so when I win against "big hitters"...they would called me a pusher

canuckfan · Jun 14, 2013

"Pushers just expose that most people actually suck. So they drive folks insane."

This is the truth. In order to beat a pusher you must confront the shortcomings in your game without illusion and work hard to improve your technique/footwork/execution. There is no shortcut. Your problem is not truly motivation. Your problem is your game is not as good as you think.

The good news is that you are fully capable of learning and improving to a level at which you can beat a pusher. But you're not going to get there unless you understand you need to get better.

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

Thepowerofchoice said:
May be you're right. May be I'm talking about counter-puncher that give you little pace but great at retrieving all the balls and redirect them. Btw that is the way I play against hard hitters. I was a former pusher and developed into all court counter-puncher junkballer (slicing from both wing). I can hit hard but prefer to use incoming pace and control the temple of the game. I also come to the net often to finish the point. I guess my strength of my game is to never let my opponent get into any rhythm.

Since I prefer not to bash on the ball in the real match (I'm 4.0) so when I win against "big hitters"...they would called me a pusher

I'd consider, you're well on your way developing into a spinmeister. Junkballing, slicing, approaching the net, all this is typical of a good spinmeister. Check some playing of Fabrice Santoro from Youtube, he's a pro spinmeister.

I'd consider Lleyton Hewitt as a very good example of counter puncher. Also Andy Murray.

newpball · Jun 14, 2013

torpantennis said:
I kinda now also understand more where the pushers' game is based on. I previously thought that they just want to get all the balls back and wait for an opponent to finally make a mistake. Now I think different. I think they rather base on giving opponent the FEELING that they make STUPID mistakes. They wanna mess the opponents game by this.

Surreal!

stronzzi70 · Jun 14, 2013

I don´t care about pusher or what ever ......If I can play tennis....that is most important part for me,,,,,,,,,TENNIS.

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

canuckfan said:
"Pushers just expose that most people actually suck. So they drive folks insane."

This is the truth. In order to beat a pusher you must confront the shortcomings in your game without illusion and work hard to improve your technique/footwork/execution. There is no shortcut. Your problem is not truly motivation. Your problem is your game is not as good as you think.

The good news is that you are fully capable of learning and improving to a level at which you can beat a pusher. But you're not going to get there unless you understand you need to get better.

I totally agree. I now see that the POINT of a pusher is junkballing. So they're the lower level version of spinmeister, not counter-puncher. I previously saw them as very poor man's counter-punchers, and then I couldn't see why they don't want to develop full strokes. But now I see them as poor man's spinmeisters, so I actually now understand their game and have more respect for it. And it's true that spinmeisters also at higher levels can find the shortcomings in technique. Fabrice Santoro could make money out of pushing!

torpantennis · Jun 14, 2013

Pusher vs. GOAT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1au7y4rUOM

BlueB · Jun 14, 2013

A lot better playing a pusher then a guy who would swing out of his mind on every stroke, where 9 balls end up in the fence or net, and one is unreturnable into the court...
Look on it as playing a wall, but with variety

You even get to return serves!

mikeler · Jun 14, 2013

Pushers give you the best workout.

Thepowerofchoice · Jun 14, 2013

torpantennis said:
I'd consider, you're well on your way developing into a spinmeister. Junkballing, slicing, approaching the net, all this is typical of a good spinmeister. Check some playing of Fabrice Santoro from Youtube, he's a pro spinmeister.

I'd consider Lleyton Hewitt as a very good example of counter puncher. Also Andy Murray.

Santoro is one of my favorite player. I practice hitting 5 times a week hitting mostly counter puncher style because if I start junking all my hitting partners, I'll probably lose them all.

Many people on here consider Andy Murray a pusher.

LeeD · Jun 14, 2013

I don't consider Fabrice a pusher. He has winning shots from anywhere on the court, and uses them.
Now AlbertoBarasetechi ......
MichaelChang...
HaroldSolomon...

Source of motivation when playing with pushers

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