ATP time limit between points?
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vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
the answer is in the bible :
http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/players/ATP_Rulebook.pdf
o) Continuous Play / Delay of Game
Following the expiration of the warm-up period, play shall be continuous and a player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause. A maximum of twentyfive (25) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play until the time the ball is struck for the next point. If such serve is a fault, then the second serve must be struck by the Server without delay. The exception is at a ninety (90) second changeover or a one hundred twenty (120) set break. The procedures for enforcing this rule are as follows:
i) 25 Seconds Between Points.
1. Start stopwatch when the player is ordered to play or when the ball goes out of play;
2. Assess Time Violation or Code Violation if the ball is not struck for the next point within the twenty-five (25) seconds allowed. There is no time warning prior to the expiration of the twenty-five (25) seconds.
ii) Changeover (Ninety (90) Seconds) and Set Break (One Hundred and Twenty (120) Seconds).
1. Start stopwatch the moment the ball goes out of play;
2. Announce “Time” after sixty (60) / ninety (90) seconds have elapsed;
3. Announce “15 Seconds” if one or both of the players are still at their chair
http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/players/ATP_Rulebook.pdf
o) Continuous Play / Delay of Game
Following the expiration of the warm-up period, play shall be continuous and a player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause. A maximum of twentyfive (25) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play until the time the ball is struck for the next point. If such serve is a fault, then the second serve must be struck by the Server without delay. The exception is at a ninety (90) second changeover or a one hundred twenty (120) set break. The procedures for enforcing this rule are as follows:
i) 25 Seconds Between Points.
1. Start stopwatch when the player is ordered to play or when the ball goes out of play;
2. Assess Time Violation or Code Violation if the ball is not struck for the next point within the twenty-five (25) seconds allowed. There is no time warning prior to the expiration of the twenty-five (25) seconds.
ii) Changeover (Ninety (90) Seconds) and Set Break (One Hundred and Twenty (120) Seconds).
1. Start stopwatch the moment the ball goes out of play;
2. Announce “Time” after sixty (60) / ninety (90) seconds have elapsed;
3. Announce “15 Seconds” if one or both of the players are still at their chair
I was timing him while watching him play against Mathieu. Consistently over 30 seconds and once a full minute after he won a point after a long rally. He doesn't delay much between a first and second serve but after a point is over he takes forever. Time him yourself next time he plays.
Eviscerator
Banned
vive le beau jeu ! said:
Thanks for the informative post.
D
Deleted member 3771
Guest
roundiesee
Hall of Fame
Sorry, is that 20 seconds after the previous point has ended, or 20 seconds from the time the server stands at the baseline to serve? If the former, then Nadal clearly takes longer than that to serve the next point.
Most of the players take considerable less than 25/30 secs (the allocated time).
They'd just get the balls, choose, line-up to serve, bounce a few times & away they go. I would say an average of 10-15 secs
The problem with players with 'habits' (Nadal's cleaning of the baseline on clay, butt-picking, Djokovic bouncing the ball 10-20 times, Sharapova dancing & bouncing the ball really high) is that these 'habits' are done in addition to what a 'normal' player does AND on every single service point.
cucio
Legend
You should try to time it with a stopwatch. It is very difficult to get it done in less than 15 secs.
The ballkids regrouping, the crowd cheering, etc... Then the ball selection takes a sizable chunk of time, it should be removed, IMO.
I timed Gulbis and Nadal 4th set yesterday and I would say Nadal averaged 24-25 secs (and yes, sometimes going one or two seconds over 25) and Gulbis a bit below 20. I didn't time it during the 1st set, but I have the impression that Nadal was even slower in his preparation.
Those 5 secs extra Nadal consistently takes are after he is already in serving position and with the crowd silent. They are subjectively perceived as very long, since nothing is happening on screen.
I could definitely do without them. Rafa served 122 times yesterday. That means we spent 122 x 5 = 610 = 10 minutes watching him bounce the ball and get ready for the serve. Not good for the show. I pay gladly that price for watching his amazing game, but I can't help to wish it was a lower one.
Or who's playing.
I don't think the players mind Nadal taking his time. It gives them time to regroup from the previous assault.
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
Nadal, Djoker, Shriekapova and Pierce ... time wasters all.
- KK
- KK
DNShade
Hall of Fame
Actually if you talk to the players - most are really annoyed with the time thing that the above players often get away with and with the uneven enforcement. Most of them don't want to look like "the bad guy", but more and more are starting to call Rafa, Novak, and the others on it as are the officials.
If the chair umpire had called out a time violation, what would the penalty entail?
I remember maybe in the Toronto Nadal vs Murray game, the umpire called out Nadal for a time violation and got a verbal assault from Nadal. I didn't hear what Nadal was saying to the umpire because his voice was dubbed over by the commentator's voice. But why would a habitual offender like Nadal feel like he was wronged enough to lash out at the umpire like that?
Did anyone catch what he was saying to the umpire?
I remember maybe in the Toronto Nadal vs Murray game, the umpire called out Nadal for a time violation and got a verbal assault from Nadal. I didn't hear what Nadal was saying to the umpire because his voice was dubbed over by the commentator's voice. But why would a habitual offender like Nadal feel like he was wronged enough to lash out at the umpire like that?
Did anyone catch what he was saying to the umpire?
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
Define "goes out of play."
Is it the moment before the umpire announces the score and neither player challenges?
Is the umpire supposed to start a stopwatch at the "moment"? It seems that total accuracy and treating all players identically would require a separate person who's job it is and who follows strict guidelines all the time.
I heard that one of the umpires in Cincy this past week suggested there be something similar to the shot clock in basketball and that it be standardized by a system similar to the hawkeye that everybody agreed to, somehow taking the human element out of it.
I just still don't see how that could be exactly fair because the end of the 20 or 25 seconds would be counted by the shot clock, but who would start the clock when the "ball goes out of play"?
Spectators aren't supposed to make any noise during the point, but there's always a lot of buzz and activity after a point, especially in a big match. I'm guessing the spectator noise goes on for longer than 20-25 seconds. The rule doesn't make any allowance for spectator applause, noise, etc.
And as someone else asked: What's the penalty?
Are they gonna penalize the player a point at a crucial time?
Or just when it's less than crucial?
TheTruth
G.O.A.T.
I time it all the time. I find the claims bogus, the commentators biased, and the people who believe it...well, I use a stopwatch too. Not only that I time other players so I know how bogus this claim is.
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
I believe you.
But.
Does the umpire actually have the time, in amongst his other tasks, to consistently start the stopwatch "the moment" the ball "goes out of play" as the rule states?
If he can't do it consistently at every "moment" the ball "goes out of play," then it's selective application of the rule and therefore not fair.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Yes, they are using serious cardio. Maybe they should think about ending the point sooner so they don't use as much cardio. Fitness is just as much part of the game as skill. I know that if I have run a player around the court in the previous point, I am going to be serving as fast as possible for the next few points because I know my odds of winning those points have just increased tremendously. This is part of the game as much as anything else, and the person who ran the other player to death shouldn't be denied the opportunity to take advantage of it. It will definitely start to take the "retriever" mentality out of the game as it should.
cknobman
Legend
When the ball makes a second bounce or touches an object other than the net/racquet.
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
When I time Rafa and Djoker I actually give them some "cushion". Since I cannot determine when "the ball went out of play" I time from when the Umpire calls the score.
Djoker doesn't violate the rule as much as he used to, but he still exceeds the time rule about 25% of the time.
Nadal exceeds the time rule more than 90% of the time. He's a "Big Boy" now, so the onus is on him. But Uncle Tony should have coached him better in the Juniors and it wouldn't be a topic of discussion now.
It's a rule. Play by the rules.
- KK
Djoker doesn't violate the rule as much as he used to, but he still exceeds the time rule about 25% of the time.
Nadal exceeds the time rule more than 90% of the time. He's a "Big Boy" now, so the onus is on him. But Uncle Tony should have coached him better in the Juniors and it wouldn't be a topic of discussion now.
It's a rule. Play by the rules.
- KK
daddy
Legend
So you want to tell me you accept commentators saying something but you do not accept official ATP ranking ? Right. Whats your IQ again ?
Atherton2003
Hall of Fame
How long has the 20 second time limit between points been in effect? It hardly seems enough time after a strenuous point - to even get a chance to catch your breath, regroup and serve all in 20 seconds. The smarter players need a chance to "think" of where they will serve and not just hit the ball anywhere...I think they should increase the time between points...but then players will go over that time limit too....
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
Bingo!
After a point like that, my attitude is, "I've been training more than he has. I'll recover faster. I have a shot at winning the next three points-in-a-row because I am more fit." So I force myself to "act ready" and try to get him not to stall.
(I keep reading how Nadal is "the most fit player in tennis." If that's true, what's he need to delay the match for anyway?)
- KK
So you want to tell me you accept commentators saying something but you do not accept official ATP ranking ? Right. Whats your IQ again ?
The time rule is not enforced, and there is no rule about the number of bounces. I have seen Gasquet's expression when waiting for Nadal to serve, and the commentators picked up on it also. The Cincy umpire, Mohammed somebody, is open to using a clock and penalizing with loss of first serve. It has become that much discussed.
When someone like Nadal or Djokovic delays and delays, and then suddenly serves, and knowing that today 40% of ATP points are won as a result of the serve, it is a big crisis and constitutes cheating. The fact that they are #1 and #3 makes it a shame because that is whom casual fans are watching.
In fact, the umpire said it was difficult to enforce the time rule because it is not enforced in the ITF. I don't know the exact details, but I assume he is talking about players making the transition to the tour, and how uniform enforcement is necessary (otherwise it would not be fair, as pros get used to a particular rhythm).
If it was a strenuous point, you should pay the price for working so strenuously.
TheTruth
G.O.A.T.
For as long as I've watched tennis, this has never been an issue. Why is it now? Sorry, don't buy the whole argument.
Fay
Professional
They can either extend the time a little or cut people some slack. If a player wants to rush with millions of prize money on the line, that is their choice. But someone who suppresses anxiety and thinks before hitting to me is a more mature player.
As far as rushing the opponent, I doubt that anyone who gets to the top ten do too much rushing with the exception of Roddick and it has not served him well, excuse the pun. He tried to rush Federer in one match and just tired himself out.
And is the crowd yelling and cheering to be part of the time that the player has counted against them? This is all a mole hill as far as I'm concerned.
As far as rushing the opponent, I doubt that anyone who gets to the top ten do too much rushing with the exception of Roddick and it has not served him well, excuse the pun. He tried to rush Federer in one match and just tired himself out.
And is the crowd yelling and cheering to be part of the time that the player has counted against them? This is all a mole hill as far as I'm concerned.
Eviscerator
Banned
That about sums it up.
dpfrazier
Rookie
IMO, the umpire calling the score should be the start of the timing. If this was applied consistently, then players would get a very good sense of how much time they have to start the next point.
Also, since the umpire will naturally wait for any applause or other noise to die down before calling the score, the players would get a little extra time cushion after long, exciting points.
(But players in matches on the lonely outer courts better be in good shape!)
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree. It's really not fair to those who follow the rules.
But when the rule involves "seconds," it sounds as if it's not squishy, but it really is squishy because it's depends on when the umpire starts the stopwatch.
And the only way for that to be fairly applied is when umpire always starts it the same for both players all match long.
playing by the 20 second rule is like getting caught driving over the speed limit. Someone might get stopped on their first time, and someone else might get stopped on their 1000th time. They've both broken the rules and can get citations.
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
That makes a lot more sense than the current definition ...... meanwhile they'd have to change the rule for common sense to reign. Plus, that way they could make use of some type of electronic "shot" clock.
The players who are millionaires and big draws otherwise will naturally have more influence (at least psychologically) on the umpires, unless the umpires themselves meticulously time both players, and they don't seem to be doing that at all.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Love Game
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree. Last week in Cincy there were times when the umpire had to interrupt a player's serve and make him wait while he talked to the crowd about taking their seats or any seats behind the players.
If there were some kind of a "shot clock" timing seconds, it would not take that kind of thing into account.
It does seem like a tempest in a teapot
as well as a mountain out of a molehill.
There's not a simple solution.
Apparently, rule needs to be changed in some
way before it can be enforced fairly.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I care less about how much they go over the limit, and more about how much time they take ONCE they are at the line. I hate watching DJoker play they most cause once he's at the line, and bounces the ball 10 times before he serves... as a returner that really throws you off and personally that would annoy the the heck of me.
Maybe his percentage would drop precipitously if he actually had to obey the rules.
TheCanadian
Semi-Pro
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