MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Have I ever said that? I said in 2013 I hoped Stan won a slam in 2014. Go project your Nadal hate somewhere else. It's bc of the ridiculous respect I've gained for how hard it is to beat Ultron actually.
2015 Roland Garros Final - [1] Novak Djokovic vs. [8] Stanislas Wawrinka
- Thread starter The Green Mile
- Start date
Have I ever said that? I said in 2013 I hoped Stan won a slam in 2014. Go project your Nadal hate somewhere else. It's bc of the ridiculous respect I've gained for how hard it is to beat Ultron actually.
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
Well, this year Djokovic was clearly not as solid as he was in 2011. When he failed to close out Murray in 3 and on top of that when he had to play 3 days in a row, the final against a fresh Stan who has always played Djoko tough and taken him to 5 regularly at slams - was anything but a given. And he is that much older now compared to 2011.
So the only reason why someone may have thought the final is a gimme for Djokovic is if they have doubted Stan's abilities.
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Keizer
Hall of Fame
He was 40-2 this year - how much more solid did you want him to be? And I honestly don't think that the Murray match played as much of a factor as people are suggesting- he's faced far longer semi final matches and prevailed in the final. He did not even talk about it in his presser. He was blown off the court, plain and simple as would have been Nadal, Federer, Murray or anybody else on the tour today.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
This. I thought Wawa COULD win, but would I expect him to keep it together against Novak? Absolutely not. I expected him to lose in 4.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
I knew Stan would win. After analyzing their matches from this week. There was no way Stan could lose today.
Goosehead
Legend
Keizer
Hall of Fame
The Fedace brand of analysis is unlikely to sit well with anyone with a remotely rational mind
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
That was again 3-4 years ago and no indicator of what happens in 2015. I don't think he repeated the 2011-early 2012 levels of stamina ever again.
Wimbledon 2013 SF against Delpo fried him physically and mentally to the extent he couldn't take a set off Murray in the final. Even in the RG 2013 SF, it was Nadal who was fresh physically and mentally in the fifth set compared to Djoker.
Stan was too good, no doubt. But Djoker was far from solid. There were indications of this even in the QF with Nadal at 4-0 in the first set. He managed to steal that set somehow, but had he lost it, you never know how that match would have ended. The same pattern repeated in the SF with Murray but he survived that as well. May be all of the physical and mental exhaustion finally caught up with him.
The absence of the rest day may have mattered before an important match like this with all the pressure of a career slam on him. It is not just about the physical effort expended on the previous day, but the mental exhaustion also has to count since he had already played and won a lot before coming into RG this year.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Ohhhh, poor Nadalgirl,,,,don't worry, your man will be back I am sure for another beating from Novak that cries....lol
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
He kept it together vs the most mentally tough player ever to win his first ever slam final, after failing to take a set from him in all his past encounters.
So it makes no sense that you didn't expect him to keep it together vs Novak in his second slam final, when he has already beaten him before in a slam and taken him to 5 several times over the past few years.
Keizer
Hall of Fame
This is so superficial that I'm cringing. Let me repeat - everything looks better in hindsight. First, how do you assert that his stamina levels are worse today? Can you give me any metrics? Second, if he was so physically fried against Rafa how was he up a break in the fifth in the first place? Third, are you telling me that you've checked every match in his 2011 and 2012 seasons and can't find any instances where he choked away a winning position in a set before getting back on track to win it? And 2012 was a worse season than 2011 (and 2014)- he won only one slam. And you're really pushing it by trying to analyze every possible thought that could've been going on in his mind. Djokovic was solid - unless you define solid as not dropping service the entire tournament or something unreasonable like that. Don't disrespect Wawrinka (and Murray for that matter) by asserting Djokovic was not solid. Sure, this may not have been his peak level but if past matches are any indication, he will never reach his peak in an RG final. Thus, this is somewhat similar to the best you're likely to see from him when placed in this situation.
I invite you to find a single post on this website that indicates that I'm a Nadal fan.
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kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
I haven't followed boxing that much to say all that. I get you...
Dan Z
Semi-Pro
I still feel in awe of this match - really couldn't believe what I was seeing at some points.
Feel quite sad for Djokovic as clearly he just got very unlucky with the form Stan was in and he was massively unnerved from set 2 onwards.
Djokovic didnt play badly at all but I dont feel he was firing on all cylinders... not that he was really given the chance to given the barrage Stan was firing at him!
Inspiring final, worthy winner and best RG I've witnessed for a very long time.
Faith in tennis restored.
Feel quite sad for Djokovic as clearly he just got very unlucky with the form Stan was in and he was massively unnerved from set 2 onwards.
Djokovic didnt play badly at all but I dont feel he was firing on all cylinders... not that he was really given the chance to given the barrage Stan was firing at him!
Inspiring final, worthy winner and best RG I've witnessed for a very long time.
Faith in tennis restored.
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
You lumped my post along with the other one, but remember that I am not saying "I always knew Stan was the favorite". Heck, he wasn't and the match was really open and anyone could have won it, so I am not claiming any benefit from hindsight. All I am saying is there was no reason to believe that Djoker was a lock to win the final here.
As for stamina levels, I already gave you two examples that come to mind to show the difference between Novak of 2011-early 2012 and the post 2012 version. Do you have any counter examples from post AO 2012 ?
Break up in the fifth set means nothing, to me that net touch was a clear indicator of not being able to think straight due to physical/mental exhaustion. His opponent definitely kept it together, much like how Djoko had kept it together in AO 2012.
'Choked away a winning position in 2011-2012' - yes you may have a point here and that probably happened in 2011 as well. But the nature in which it happened now(spraying UEs, missing sitters) is not something I recall was the case in 2011. But yeah, comparing Djoker's current level to his 2011 level is perhaps irrelevant to this discussion.
My opinion was based on current Djoker and current Stan, so everything else is immaterial.
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MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
No answer is ever good enough for a Nadal hater. Not sure why you're going to bother asking me since you have it all figured out :roll: I, like most of the tennis world expected Novak to win the French Open. Period. A match from last January with Nadal has **** to do with it.
racquetreligion
Hall of Fame
Stanimalism beats Nads at his best and now Nole
sbengte
G.O.A.T.
"Nadal hater/Nadal hate" routinely thrown in without reason when you don't have a reasonable explanation for why you thought Djoko had it in the bag or in other words Wawa stood no chance.
You should have several seats :lol:
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
You're going in circles about nothing. I can pull up 50 posts of mine supporting Stan. I already said I didn't think he had a chance. You're just trying to apply your own reasoning to it, because of who my favorite player is. Why? Because you're a hater, not that it's a secret or anything. I didn't think ANYONE had a chance against Novak. Not even sure why I'm wasting my time with a troll. I am DELIGHTED with the match result
I had 6 seats and a fat blunt actually 
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Great post Keizer, pretty much agree on all counts.
As for the serve, do you mean his general first serve percentage or the stretches in the match, where it went a bit down?
Cause he served at 65 % (compared to 70 vs. Murray, 63 vs. Rafa and 68 % this clay season). Not fantastic, but pretty standard and not low enough to count as poor in my book.
Another great postFor me,
1. Last 4 meetings went to decider. Not this time
2. Stan can really improve his returns off his BH.
3. Would love to see Stan stay higher at the baseline to go with his offense. Who knows may be he is more comfortable whacking it late.
4. Stan serves so hard. If a big server like him puts in 67 pc, there's not much hope for opponent.
5. 60 winners in 4 sets against Djoke on clay is huge.
6. Funny, bulk of those 60 winners and 67 pc first serves came in last 3 sets. So you know the level.
7. Novak didnt play poor [or passive as some posters want to put it] at all. It had everything to do with Stan's superlative tennis.
8. It wasn't his BH, but FH and clutch serving!
9. Few more, but I already posted here and there. Not interested anymore
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Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Should I feel bad for finding this extremely funny? Nah.....Special cheers for veroniquem the Queen of Gloryhunters! LULz
Commiserations to the many good Novak-fans though.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Congrats to the organizers for gifting the RG trophy to a player who did not deserve it.
Impossible draw and impossible schedule did Djoko in. He has nothing to blame himself for. He played as well as he possibly could in the circumstances, defended all his points and was imperial in defeat. True champ and #1.
Impossible draw and impossible schedule did Djoko in. He has nothing to blame himself for. He played as well as he possibly could in the circumstances, defended all his points and was imperial in defeat. True champ and #1.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
I have never believed what others talk about you here. I like your posts here, all the stats you bring and all that... This was ridiculous though.
Saying Novak was unfortunate is one thing, saying Stan didnt deserve it is outright ridiculous.
NatF
Bionic Poster
It's actually rather typical of her :lol:
K
King Fed WW
Guest
No draw was fine. Federer got the terrible draw. Unstoppable Wawrinka in the QFs.
With Fed's draw then Nole would be 840 points down.
Underhand
Legend
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I'm not so sure Wawrinka would've beaten Djokovic in the QF. I do think Novak's previous two matches before the final had an impact on him, more mentally than anything else but no doubt that Stan deserved the victory.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
Gutted for Novak, wonder if he'll ever win the FRnch Open now. I hope so.
Gotta give hug credit to Stan though, the way he has won his slams beatting Djokovic twice, Nadal and Federer. He just rises to the challenge of the final which is amazing.
Also very classy from Djokovic at the end when the match was done and the crowd really gave him a lot of respect. Good to see.
Gotta give hug credit to Stan though, the way he has won his slams beatting Djokovic twice, Nadal and Federer. He just rises to the challenge of the final which is amazing.
Also very classy from Djokovic at the end when the match was done and the crowd really gave him a lot of respect. Good to see.
K
King Fed WW
Guest
Yeah probably correct but I am just trolling Vero.She moaned and moaned about Federer getting a cakewalk. She looks like a right idiot now.
Novak had so much to lose yesterday I think he got totally flustered when the onslaught started. Started coming into the net etc. Maybe he would have weathered it in a QF.
Anyway, the match came down to a couple of points . Novak could easily be French open Champion this morning with a bit of luck. (one shot here or there)
Agree with all 3 points. Novak was pure class yesterday. He may get on like a bit of a di.ck during his matches but he is top guy and very gracious in defeat and in victory (very classy at W14).
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
No he didn't. He capitalized on the joke draw of the century and his opponent having a nightmare draw AND schedule. (same way he capitalized on Nadal's injury at AO 2014)
I really, really want to see a slam where Wawrinka has to play Nadal, Murray and Djoko back to back and play the SF/F over 3 consecutive days and see if he wins it. Bring it on. I'm ready to bet.
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Towser83
G.O.A.T.
Yes Stan did desreve it. Pathetic comment from you.
He beat the number one and massive favourite for the tournament and it isn't a fluke, he's beaten him in a slam before (Novak's favourite slam) and taken him to 5 sets the 3 other times they met in a slam too.
Sure Novak had to go through Nadal and Murray - but that was down to the seedings and the draw which is fair. Plus as it turned out Nadal was not some clay beast like usual, he was worthy of his number 7 ranking and to be honest Djokovic probably would have had more trouble with Tsonga or Ferrer. He shuldn't have let himself go 5 with Murray and that match was spread over 2 days anyway. That Murray match was the only tough match he had.Overall Stan had spent more time on court than Djokovic I think.
Stan won fair and ssquare. You can moan about this but really it's the same as Nadal winning the USO. Having never done well there before he picked that year to play amazing when everyone else was off their game, Novak finally gets his chance having been far more "deserving" than Nadal, takes Federer out in a long match while Nadal has an utter cakewalk (much easier than Stan's route here - Stan beat seveal players including Federer who was good enugh to make a clay masters final just like Nadal and suceeded in inning a European clay title which Nadal could not do) and Nadal waltzes home with the prize. Didn't hear you complaining about that one? God, even Federer's RG was more deserving by virtue of Federer making several RG finals. Nadal just got lucky like Stan did. Luckier. Easier draw and the Novak of yesterday's final was way above the Novak of 2010 USO who had virtually no confidence having had the crappiest year since breaking through.
I am gutted for Novak, but he got beaten fair and square.. Typical excuses from you, shame you can't be as humble as Novak.
Underhand
Legend
Wake up and smell the roses. LULz
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
Woman, you r not being reasonable at all. I am little busy now, catch you later, but do answer to these:
1. If Stan's draw is joke, tell me how much funnier is Rafa's UO 2013 and UO 2010. Please... I would like some consistency from you.
Imo, no draw is easy when you have to play a guy as tough as Novak in the final.
2. Agreed, Djoker had a tougher route, but vast majority of us didn't see the fatigue being the problem against Wowrinka. The level Wowrinka was in would outdo almost anyone. But that's subjective, let's leave it at that. As I said I dont have a problem with your statement that Novak had misfortune of scheduling and facing a tougher draw, I agree to that.
My argument is on your claim that Stan didnt deserve it, or it was gifted to Stan. He beat no.1 and no.2 for God sake!
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Well, yes, in the sense that many a match that goes to 4 or 5 sets is decided by a few points here and there. But I think the gap here was much bigger than what you're suggesting. Wawrinka had a higher first serve percentage (67% to 65%), a higher percentage of points won behind the second serve (76% to 63%), a higher percentage of break points won (27% to 20%), more total points won (137 to 117, which is quite a lot), and a positive W/UE ratio (59/45 to 30/41). This does not suggest it was only a few points here and there.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
Nadal has the joke draw of the century USO2010, followed by USO 2013 and RG 2010 too (not that that one really mattered)
Stan would have beaten Nadal without an injury anyway, he smashed him on clay this year despite not even coming in with for. Stan is an animal, in a slam final he plays better than usual. His record vs Djokovic in slams speaks for it's self. He beat him at Djokovic's pet slam and has always taken him 5 sets.
You're a bad loser. But that's nothing new.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
I rooted for Stan, I am happy Nole lost. Simply because this was his best chance for CYGS and that didnt happen. Wont good look on Nadal's resume, no?
I want Nole to win RG. I would have rooted for him had he lost AO. I want him to complete CGS but not CYGS
#yesI'maPsycho
I want Nole to win RG. I would have rooted for him had he lost AO. I want him to complete CGS but not CYGS
#yesI'maPsycho
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
1. I dont think they beat Federer's AO 2006 :twisted:
2. There is no comparison between Nadal's level this year and his level at AO 2014 as a world no.1. Also there is no comparison between a Slam and a Masters. You're being di#k.
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K
King Fed WW
Guest
Yeah, I mean more if Nole takes a break point here or there he is French Open champion.
Like in the final game, I reckon Nole wins the title if the takes the BP.
That reminds me, Dimitrov thinks he is Wimbledon champion if he takes that 4th set Set Point in the SF v Nole.
racquetreligion
Hall of Fame
Nadal is a shadow of himself and will never be what he was again
face it he aged faster than others and many have warned he
will decline quickly before he is thirty and he has
Face reality its simple Nadal is Finnish
face it he aged faster than others and many have warned he
will decline quickly before he is thirty and he has
Face reality its simple Nadal is Finnish
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
She's in ruins over this loss :lol: I recovered after a few minutes - it's disappointing at first, but it's always important to appreciate when the opponent (Stanimal) played amazing tennis, I really don't know if a more favourable draw/scheduling would have made a difference to be honest.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
I thought Novak had a pretty easy draw til the quarterfinals. I never really thought the draw has anything to do with if you are truly deserving champion or not. Is Gastin Gaudio deserving champion ? Yet he is a French open champion too. and Stan is 100 % more real deal than him....
Jeeze, novak played it too safe, Stan went for his shots. Stans game plan was the winning choice. End o story.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
NatF
Bionic Poster
AO 2006 and FO 2010 are pretty even IMO.
You might find this thread interesting...
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=534658
Keizer
Hall of Fame
Ah, maybe I should have said that he wasn't getting enough points on the first serve. I think he was winning around 55-60% of first serve points, which is much lower than his usual. Of course, that may come down to Stan's somewhat surprisingly good defense, but he needed to convert better if he wanted to stick with him towards the later stages of the game.
Alright, let's look at some stats here. Djokovic went 16-6 in finals in 2011 and 2012 and went 19-5 in finals in 2013 and 2014. I'm going to say that this is a decent proxy for stamina because you're playing a lot of matches in a short time span. There seems to be no statistical difference between his performances in the two time periods, heck if anything he looks to have a better record from 2013 onwards. Let me remind you that he has played multiple best of 5 matches this year where he has bageled or breadsticked his opponents. He breadsticked and bageled Murray, easily one of the top 3 fittest guys on tour for god's sake. Murray himself mentioned that Djokovic was cleaning lines in the fifth set yesterday. I could argue that being able to go for your shots with the most important GS for your legacy on the line is an indication of mental fortitude, not mental frailty. And Djokovic always misses sitters near the net, not because he is mentally frail, but because he sucks at the net.
And please, don't try to read his mind about the net touch (I don't remember it happening myself). Isn't it possible that his mental fragility was brought about by utter frustration that Rafa wasn't going away? I can think of a thousand different reasons as to why he did that and that's no indication that he is physically or mentally weaker. Add to that the fact that he is notorious for selling it (ask Murray, that's twice in a row that he's let his concentration slip when Djokovic starts off on one of his pantomimes). Besides, almost every player in recent history ATP who played Rafa was probably frustrated at some point given how Rafa plays and fights. That doesn't mean all of them are mentally weak, does it?
I never said that you believed Djoker was a lock to win this one. However I do believe that he was not a lock because of how he matches up against a player like Wawrinka and not because he was physically/mentally compromised by his RG schedule/age/whatever other excuse you can think of.
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Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
I don't recall seeing you much around, but you seem to know your tennis, which - sometimes unfortunately - is a rarity on these boards.
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Keizer
Hall of Fame
I appreciate that, Chanwan. Honestly, I follow tennis much less than a lot of people on this forum. I just try not to second guess or psychoanalyze athletes I only see on TV.
PinShot
Rookie
Yeah right ...
Stan had the toughest Draw ever ... versus a Bunch of No-Names ... before he went through grueling Encounters against an indisposed 34-Year Old ... and one Round later against an inconsistent Frenchman, who, on top of things, eliminated one of the Favorites in a 5-Set Marathon ...
One thing is certain ... if things would have been vice versa and Wawrinka had to go through Gasquet, Nadal and Murray consecutively ... to meet Djokovic in the Final .... Novak would have thrown him in a Pan, to toast him fore 3 Sets at will.
But as always in Sports ... Luck plays a huge Role. Circumstances came together perfectly fore Stan ... but nontheless, he won deservingly yesterday.
