Vox Rationis
Professional
nice gatekeeping
The Carnage Begins: S rated players from 2020 getting DQed in 2021
- Thread starter OnTheLine
- Start date
I am with you on this. One of my favorite things about tennis is being outside. While I enjoy indoor tennis, I will always choose to be outdoors if given the chance.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Better take it out of the air.What's your point?
No. I lived in Utah for many years. We played indoors when there was snow on the ground. Outdoors whenever possible though.
schmke
Legend
Related to this, I've observed an interesting oddity this year that is increasing the number of self-rated players.
There are a fair number of players who had 2017 year-end ratings, didn't play enough in 2018 or 2019 to get a year-end rating, but did play enough in 2020 to get a year-end rating, but obviously didn't get one since on year-end ratings were published. These 2017 ratings are now 3 years old and expired, and these players must self-rate again for 2021. Similarly, there are seniors who have a 2-year expiration and had a 2018 year-end rating and played enough in 2020 to get a new year-end rating, but now have to self-rate again.
So this also inflates the number of self-rates in 2021.
The bottom line is the USTA elected to treat 2020/2021 as one rating period for some things and accept the consequences of that, but then compound that by having 2017 and 2018 (senior) ratings expire even though there was no 2020 rating period.
There are a fair number of players who had 2017 year-end ratings, didn't play enough in 2018 or 2019 to get a year-end rating, but did play enough in 2020 to get a year-end rating, but obviously didn't get one since on year-end ratings were published. These 2017 ratings are now 3 years old and expired, and these players must self-rate again for 2021. Similarly, there are seniors who have a 2-year expiration and had a 2018 year-end rating and played enough in 2020 to get a new year-end rating, but now have to self-rate again.
So this also inflates the number of self-rates in 2021.
The bottom line is the USTA elected to treat 2020/2021 as one rating period for some things and accept the consequences of that, but then compound that by having 2017 and 2018 (senior) ratings expire even though there was no 2020 rating period.
Is it allowing them to self rate lower than their computer rating they had in 2020?
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Weird.
Tennis cannot always be played in the ”natural environment,” as you put it. It can’t be played in rain or in darkness or extreme temperatures, or even in dense fog or after a storm. Outdoor tennis also looks awfully unfun for people who have to worry about sun protection, bundling up on a hot day or slathering sunscreen on every inch of exposed skin.
I guess outdoors is your jam if you like sun, wind, mosquitoes, and gnats. You do you, son. I’ll use my outdoor time for other things.
schmke
Legend
I see some where the S is lower than the prior C, but these may have been appealed down from the same level S it originally had for them, there is no way of knowing whether TennisLink allowed it or it was appealed.
Cashman
Hall of Fame
So? You can't always ski in the natural environment, that doesn't mean the indoor ski hill in Dubai isn't completely ****
Tennis is an outdoor sport, it's like a climber saying they prefer gym walls over rock routes
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Yup. I have one team member in this situation .... my guess given her play right now is that she is a high likelihood of getting DQed.
joeydivine
New User
Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?
I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days.
And the tennis is still fun.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?
I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days.
And the tennis is still fun.
J
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
And the year ending championship itself is indoors on both tours. So weird and unnatural is tennis.
J
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
So people ought to not play tennis at all for four-six months in the places where it snows for that many months in a year? Got it.Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?
I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days.
And the tennis is still fun.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Well at least there isn't a roof at any of the four majors, THAT would be absurd.
J
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
I get why someone in certain areas would play indoors during bad weather months.
I really don't get choosing to only play indoors when the weather permits outside play. I glory in playing outdoors. I may whine now and then about some wind and when over 110 it is a pain to only play in the morning or at night. But I like adapting to different conditions, love the sun on my skin, the sounds of the park around us.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
I would think that would be next to impossible.
If a 3.0S player is only playing 3.0C players even a string double bagels wouldn't have them generate a dNTRP that would put them to 4.0.
If the 3.0S player is playing up on a 3.5 team against 3.5C rated players then yes I suppose that they could strike out to 4.0 ...
the latter scenario is what I have in mind. I'm just wondering if the double-bump would occur as a matter of policy, even if the numbers warranted it.
joeydivine
New User
"tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside? "
J
How many of these are on tv?
joeydivine
New User
Just curious - how much per month does it cost to play tennis indoors?
Say.. two matches a week plus a coaching/practice day.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Vox Rationis
Professional
All of them...
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I mean, maybe, but there has never been a slam champion or world #1 or halfway decent player from Russia, or Canada, or Sweden, or any of those up North places...
J
joeydivine
New User
If not sarcasm: What TV channel are you watching Challenger matches on?
joeydivine
New User
Hey check out this place:
I hear you can go there and play outside like all the time - even if you're from Russia!
schmke
Legend
I believe it would, and I've seen players that self-rated at X and then show a DQ at X+1.0, but those I just found doing a quick search appear to have been administrative (grievance filed of some sort) or the player appealed their self-rate up to X+0.5 in between the original self-rate and the DQ.
Cashman
Hall of Fame
Indoor tennis is better than no tennis, I just can’t fathom choosing it over playing outdoors where I have the option
Kind of like how I’ll go to the climbing gym to keep my skills sharp, but it’s a distant second best to getting out on the rocks
Purestriker
Legend
That didn't happen in my example I posted here earlier. I thought she did, but she was able to appeal and only DQ'd at 3.0 because most of the strikes were when she was a 2.5 S rate vs. when she rerated at 3.0S.
What happens to the player who threads the needle and gets 3 strikes at level X putting their DNRTP slightly above X+0.5, but the matches are not strikes at the X+0.5 level? For example if player is playing as a 3.0S and gets strikes and maintains a DNRTP of 3.54 with a threshold of strikes for 3.5 at 3.55, would that player be promoted directly to 4.0 even though none of their matches would be strikes at the 3.5 level?
Yes, it would apply. There was a guy maybe 10 years ago in Middle States who rated 3.5S and played 1 3.5 match that he won 6-0 6-0. He then joined a 4.0 team and was DQ'd from 3.5 S to 4.5 D based on his results at 4.0.
Vox Rationis
Professional
The same channel outdoor challengers are on. Sometimes it’s the Tennis Channel. Or some obscure direct TV channel. Or just an online stream through official (or unofficial) sources. You can pretty much watch any challenger level or above tournament someway somehow.
Also Indoor tennis is a massive part of the sport. You can’t just diminish it just because you personally don’t play indoors.
joeydivine
New User
I wasn't diminishing it.
What was being diminished was playing outdoor tennis - bugs, sunshine, wind, etc...
I'm still curious about the monthly cost of playing indoors.
Traffic
Hall of Fame
For public courts, it's $16per person per hour
For private clubs, it varies quite a bit depending on membership fees. But overall, will not be less than the public court fees so >$16ppph
For my club, which is one of the cheaper clubs, it's $130/mo membership, $22 classes, $4 or $8pp to rent courts. So for play 4x a week, probably $20ppph
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Indoor court time is almost always more expensive than outdoor court time. Just like outdoor fees, the indoor fees will vary depending on how nice the club is and how many other indoor facilities are available locally (competition). I don’t know how much my club charges for indoor time because I never look at the statement and they just debit my account for some seemingly random amount every month. At my club, it is a competitive process to get indoor time during the winter, especially at peak hours like weeknights at 6:00 for instance. These times are booked far in advance (months), and spontaneous play is not available. Seniority, knowing the right people, and donations help with this. In that context, if you are able to get prime indoor court time, you don’t ask how much it costs.
I'm reasonably sure it does. In my section, the results stand, so I don't know why the match ranking wouldn't.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
In my section the results are reversed for the purpose of team standings. However I believe that the result does count for your dNTRP for ratings purposes.
schmke
Legend
This would be correct. Sections have the option to reverse results for standing or not, some do, some don't, but the result itself remains recorded and is used as such for ratings.
Middle States reverses only the third strike now. They used to reverse all three strikes, but changed that when they went to PPP.
schmke
Legend
Well, that is still better than letting the results stand. The USTA is just asking for captains to cheat if the only result of a DQ is a player not being eligible going forward. If none of the past matches are at risk, a captain is welcome to load up on self-rates and just hope enough make it through the season.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Eastern used to, but as more sections go to PPP, that is a huge penalty, so I'm not sure if that is still true or not. Middle States still reverses all of the points for self-rating grievances, just not dynamic DQ.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
What is PPP?
Nevermind ... must be Point Per Position
For a DQ I don't think it is too high of a penalty. Captains absolutely know if they have an out of level S rated player. They can play that person on D3 or S2 and take their lumps in case of a DQ.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
yup yup!
For 18+ season that started a few weeks back, I turned away a 3.5S rate. Came out and played a practice set ... yeah, not a 3.5 player ... handed her to a 4.0 captain. She has played 2 matches thus far at 4.0. Won both by wide margins at S1 and D1. 4.0 captain thinks she will be bumped/DQed to 4.5
But how will we win if we don't cheat?
