A Question for the 5.0 players

[zill]

Did he say why he thought he would beat you?

He said he will beat me before the match.

 

[optic yellow]

He said he will beat me before the match.

How he said it matters.

 

[mcs1970]

Aussies.

 

[SV10is]

You clearly don't know me. I didn't try a fh for the sake of trying it or for the fun of it. I had been searching for my fh for 4 years. I even postponed the match a week or so because I didn't feel I had a fh (any fh). Thought I had one and tried it on the day but didn't feel right either. Yes I was fully competitive with him because he kept saying he was going to beat me prior to the match. So no mercy from me sorry.

It's quite the achievement to play 4.5 without a forehand.

 

[nyta2]

When you play a 4.5 how do you feel during the match? Obviously you will win comfortably with a one sided score line but how do you feel exactly during the match? Do you feel that you are 'unplayable' from the perspective of your 4.5 opponent? As in there is just 'no competition' between you and your 4.5 opponent?

if it's helpful, i can share what the instructor (ex d1, former utr13) told me recently after we played a practice set, to get an idea of what to work on for the lesson...
"you have all the tools/strokes to beat me but you have a much lower shot tolerance (of quality shots, than me)...
your serve needs to improve to get more free points, else you have to work harder for points
i don't have to make great shots, just need to place it away from you, and some depth, but generally out of your strikezone, because i know you're either going to (a) pull the trigger to early and miss, or (b.i) give me a short ball that i can use to pull the noose a little tighter (b.ii) you make the wrong shot choice (eg going dtl too early) allowing me to get an advantage in the rally
occasionally you make great shots, but not enough to win a set
once your shot tolerance goes up, then it will force me to play riskier/more aggressive shots because i will start to feel like you won't miss
then it becomes a game/balance of who can make who more uncomfortable without reducing too much consistency"

Say a typical 4.5 vs a typical 5.0. Or are you saying it could be the case that a certain 4.5's games style may trouble a certain solid 5.0?

presuming you're a mid level 4.5 (from singles results)... how do you feel against a mid level 4.0...
i imagine it's the same/similar feeling that someone who is 1 full ntrp level higher than me feels when they play me.
game styles only make a difference across similar level bands,... if someone is 1 full level higher, there are too many deficiencies for a "style" to overcome, unless your style/strengths is one that happens to be exactly perfectly matched to your opponents particularly weaknesses (brown vs nadal specifically on grass comes to mind)

 

[SV10is]

If someone is 1 full level higher, there are too many deficiencies for a "style" to overcome, unless your style/strengths is one that happens to be exactly perfectly matched to your opponents particularly weaknesses (brown vs nadal specifically on grass comes to mind).

That sounds about right. The one sided outcome will be obvious after maybe two games. If you can't prevent the opponent from attacking your serve reliably, it's going to be nearly impossible to hold serve. And if you can't minimally neutralize your opponent's second serve, you're not going to break them. If you pass the test on the serve and return of serve, then we have two games to see if either player can handle what the opponent dishes out for them. You need to minimally be able to handle the quality of shots they hit to make your ground strokes and volleys doable. Chances are that you might have to resort to playing above your comfort zone and take too much risks to even just stay alive in the rally.

My impression is that a full level of difference likely means the upper level player has to hold back a little on the quality of serves and returns otherwise they likely put you on the defense in almost every point from the get go.

I can share what the instructor (ex d1, former utr13).

These guys are no joke on a court! The balls cry in the can after every match.

 

[user92626]

So what happened was I was experimenting with my fh at the time (have been the last 4 years but right now have settled on one) and unfortunately the fh I decided to use on the day was not working well. Basically uncomfortable to use. I resorted to hitting a lot of slices and 'weird balls' as @Curious would put it in the match with a topspin fh every now and again. It worked and Curious was having a bad time dealing with my balls. Curious got frustrated eventually and claimed that 'he had won' because I wasn't even hitting topspin and he should have instead played with a 3.0-3.5 buddy of his that he usually plays with who always hit junk balls and serve with a pancake grip. So with those comments in mind I think I can be excused to burst out laughing mid match.

I'm confused by this.

It's not confusing to me. I understand zill's post. He implied Curious was expecting amazing 4.5 types of balls from zill but instead he's got a lot of slices and 'weird balls'.

Anyhoo, according to zill, Curious is afraid of pushers, junk ballers and would bash them. I wonder what @zaph has to say about players like Curious.

So much drama in this tiny place.

 

[J011yroger]

if it's helpful, i can share what the instructor (ex d1, former utr13) told me recently after we played a practice set, to get an idea of what to work on for the lesson...
"you have all the tools/strokes to beat me but you have a much lower shot tolerance (of quality shots, than me)...
your serve needs to improve to get more free points, else you have to work harder for points
i don't have to make great shots, just need to place it away from you, and some depth, but generally out of your strikezone, because i know you're either going to (a) pull the trigger to early and miss, or (b.i) give me a short ball that i can use to pull the noose a little tighter (b.ii) you make the wrong shot choice (eg going dtl too early) allowing me to get an advantage in the rally
occasionally you make great shots, but not enough to win a set
once your shot tolerance goes up, then it will force me to play riskier/more aggressive shots because i will start to feel like you won't miss
then it becomes a game/balance of who can make who more uncomfortable without reducing too much consistency"

presuming you're a mid level 4.5 (from singles results)... how do you feel against a mid level 4.0...
i imagine it's the same/similar feeling that someone who is 1 full ntrp level higher than me feels when they play me.
game styles only make a difference across similar level bands,... if someone is 1 full level higher, there are too many deficiencies for a "style" to overcome, unless your style/strengths is one that happens to be exactly perfectly matched to your opponents particularly weaknesses (brown vs nadal specifically on grass comes to mind)

We had a fun match at my club.

I don't know if we are exactly one level apart though.

J

 

[nyta2]

We had a fun match at my club.

I don't know if we are exactly one level apart though.

J

a bagel/breadstick to me is definitely at least one full level (eg. low-mid4.5 vs. mid5.0) apart in my book...
that said, i'm 40lbs lighter now

 

[nyta2]

That sounds about right. The one sided outcome will be obvious after maybe two games. If you can't prevent the opponent from attacking your serve reliably, it's going to be nearly impossible to hold serve. And if you can't minimally neutralize your opponent's second serve, you're not going to break them. If you pass the test on the serve and return of serve, then we have two games to see if either player can handle what the opponent dishes out for them. You need to minimally be able to handle the quality of shots they hit to make your ground strokes and volleys doable. Chances are that you might have to resort to playing above your comfort zone and take too much risks to even just stay alive in the rally.

My impression is that a full level of difference likely means the upper level player has to hold back a little on the quality of serves and returns otherwise they likely put you on the defense in almost every point from the get go.

there are a number of ways a better player can "hold back" against me..
hit to my strengths, or generally at me so i don't have to run much
intentionally make me play more balls
intentionally play their weaker shots to my strengths
hit more spin vs. pace
etc...

These guys are no joke on a court! The balls cry in the can after every match.

honestly i don't have a game good enough to make him up his A game... that said, his kick serve reached the second horizontal bar on the back fence

 

[J011yroger]

a bagel/breadstick to me is definitely at least one full level (eg. low-mid4.5 vs. mid5.0) apart in my book...
that said, i'm 40lbs lighter now

I smell a rematch!

J

 

[optic yellow]

It's not confusing to me. I understand zill's post. He implied Curious was expecting amazing 4.5 types of balls from zill but instead he's got a lot of slices and 'weird balls'.

Anyhoo, according to zill, Curious is afraid of pushers, junk ballers and would bash them. I wonder what @zaph has to say about players like Curious.

So much drama in this tiny place.

@Curious is maybe ~1 month in his development at current pace from not longer fearing then. Once he gets the forehand confidence solidified he will easily be able to learn how to hit the low topspin shots needed to destroy junk.

 

[zill]

It's quite the achievement to play 4.5 without a forehand.

How about Paire playing on the tour without a fh.

 

[J011yroger]

@Curious is maybe ~1 month in his development at current pace from not longer fearing then. Once he gets the forehand confidence solidified he will easily be able to learn how to hit the low topspin shots needed to destroy junk.

Wait! First I find out @zill actually plays tennis and now you are telling me @Curious is getting better?

How many other lies have I been told by the council?

J

 

[user92626]

Wait! First I find out @zill actually plays tennis and now you are telling me @Curious is getting better?

How many other lies have I been told by the council?

J

The latest lie is player J011yroger is concerned about the tennis status of TT players! When did that happen?

 

[user92626]

Let us be with our delusion

 

[ballmachineguy]

The guy is playing/fooling around. That footage is the first time we played a set I beat him 6-0. He then wanted a best of three set match despite my swearing the first time we played. Beat him 6-0 6-0 6-0 the second time but without any swearing. He for some reason got angry after the triple bagel. The first bagel with all the swearing was apparently fine with him.

btw I swore in the footage because I wasn't happy with my own performance, got nothing to do with @Curious.

You can’t hold Curious’ jock!

 

[netlets]

I feel like they won’t have the weapons or consistency to stay with me.

 

[optic yellow]

Wait! First I find out @zill actually plays tennis and now you are telling me @Curious is getting better?

How many other lies have I been told by the council?

J

As I'm sure you can agree he always had it in him, it was just a matter of not letting his mind get in the way of itself.

 

[J011yroger]

As I'm sure you can agree he always had it in him, it was just a matter of not letting his mind get in the way of itself.

It was just a matter of not changing his mind!

J

 

[user92626]

You can’t hold Curious’ jock!

Why so venomous to zill? What's he done to you?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Why so venomous to zill? What's he done to you?

Just having fun. Zill and I are cool. Was just going along with the theme of Curious’ video post.

 

[user92626]

Just having fun. Zill and I are cool. Was just going along with the theme of Curious’ video post.

I see. Clearly not my style of fun hence my wondering.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I see. Clearly not my style of fun hence my wondering.

I’ve been drinking.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Zill, I don’t know if this is still your forehand, but your arm is straight before you swivel/lag.

https://imgur.com/a/8Faj2uJ

Not good. It should straighten because of hitting shoulder forward movement. You’ll get way more rhs. You will also look less like you are throwing the discus.

Here is Rafa with his racquet as far back as it will go.

https://imgur.com/a/3L32V6K

His arm will straighten on way to contact. Mucho rhs.

 

[zill]

Zill, I don’t know if this is still your forehand, but your arm is straight before you swivel/lag.

https://imgur.com/a/8Faj2uJ

Not good. It should straighten because of hitting shoulder forward movement. You’ll get way more rhs. You will also look less like you are throwing the discus.

Here is Rafa with his racquet as far back as it will go.

https://imgur.com/a/3L32V6K

His arm will straighten on way to contact. Mucho rhs.

Can't see the photos.

 

[zill]

The biggest revelation of this thread is that Zill actually plays tennis!

I had no idea!

J

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

 

[J011yroger]

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

Unreal! Good luck!

J

 

[J011yroger]

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

I like that quote in your sig about the food.

I think I might have underestimated you.

J

 

[zill]

I like that quote in your sig about the food.

I think I might have underestimated you.

J

Yeah food is a life long battle for me. It's my biggest hurdle now to 5.0 as my game is based on grinding baseline play. Why did you underestimate me before?

 

[J011yroger]

Yeah food is a life long battle for me. It's my biggest hurdle now to 5.0 as my game is based on grinding baseline play. Why did you underestimate me before?

Because you made dumb threads about pro players instead of... you know... actually training.

J

 

[StringSnapper]

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

how are you going to fix your knee?

 

[zill]

how are you going to fix your knee?

On the mend. Better then before. Saw a new physio who is helping me much better.

 

[zill]

Because you made dumb threads about pro players instead of... you know... actually training.

J

Everyone learns different. Also have had a 2 year long injury.

 

[travlerajm]

Everyone learns different.

I think this is the same reason why Nick Kyrgios took so long to get his act together.

 

[ubercat]

I m in Melbourne @zill and I won't get angry when you beat me. Challenge has been made

 

[ballmachineguy]

Can't see the photos.

Yeah. What’s up with that? My powers are becoming weaker and weaker. Who has the kryptonite?
Anyway, arm straightens as a result of shoulder moving forward. Not before.

 

[optic yellow]

Yeah. What’s up with that? My powers are becoming weaker and weaker. Who has the kryptonite?
Anyway, arm straightens as a result of shoulder moving forward. Not before.

It is afterwards but that doesn't mean it's the result of.

 

[onehandbh]

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

Let me know if you ever visit Bali.
You can curse and laugh as much as you want at me when we play tennis.

 

[ballmachineguy]

It is afterwards but that doesn't mean it's the result of.

Well, it is. What else would it be?

 

[SV10is]

Honestly i don't have a game good enough to make him up his A game... that said, his kick serve reached the second horizontal bar on the back fence

My best kicks jump above players at the baseline, so a little over 6 feet on a good one. But second bar on the back fence?! That's huge.

How hard does he hit a flat serve? I'm guessing he can hit >120 mph on a good one, although he may trade off some pace for spin and may hit slower like 110 or 115, but very heavy.

There was a promo event yesterday at the local court and the guy there talked about some player he knew who could get absurd height on those -- hitting the back fence >6 feet off the ground. That guy apparently sent every other ball through the fence on flat serves and regularly hit above 120 mph.

He also brought a radar to clock serves. I only tried two because there was a huge line up to try. I hit 106 mph out wide, but hit the tape at 112 mph trying to go down the T on the second one. I guess your hitting partner there would find it a little dainty -- like, he's casually popping 100 mph warming up. If the kick is that big, he must be able to hit really hard.

 

[SV10is]

I m in Melbourne @zill and I won't get angry when you beat me. Challenge has been made

Correction. Uber challenge has been made.

 

[SV10is]

Not only play but on track to 5.0 in the near future...

I hope you'll bring a camera to shoot your first ever 5.0 match when that happens so you can shock the naysayers.

 

[optic yellow]

My best kicks jump above players at the baseline, so a little over 6 feet on a good one. But second bar on the back fence?! That's huge.

How hard does he hit a flat serve? I'm guessing he can hit >120 mph on a good one, although he may trade off some pace for spin and may hit slower like 110 or 115, but very heavy.

There was a promo event yesterday at the local court and the guy there talked about some player he knew who could get absurd height on those -- hitting the back fence >6 feet off the ground. That guy apparently sent every other ball through the fence on flat serves and regularly hit above 120 mph.

He also brought a radar to clock serves. I only tried two because there was a huge line up to try. I hit 106 mph out wide, but hit the tape at 112 mph trying to go down the T on the second one. I guess your hitting partner there would find it a little dainty -- like, he's casually popping 100 mph warming up. If the kick is that big, he must be able to hit really hard.

Is it even fun playing against serves like that?

 

[SV10is]

Is it even fun playing against serves like that?

I don't know. I hit the biggest serve in my league and the second biggest hitter topped out at 99 mph yesterday.

He's a lefty and he has a nasty slice to go with that flat serve (obviously, it's slower, but he can pull you outside the doubles alley). It's pretty challenging and you have to read him well or you're screwed. It's pretty fun.

And it's definitely fun to dish out big serves and see people struggle with them. The guys all make jokes about it.

I imagine someone better than me feels the same about those monsters at their own level. They have the skills to match it and they enjoy the challenge, I guess.

 

[optic yellow]

I don't know. I hit the biggest serve in my league and the second biggest hitter topped out at 99 mph yesterday.

He's a lefty and he has a nasty slice to go with that flat serve (obviously, it's slower, but he can pull you outside the doubles alley). It's pretty challenging and you have to read him well or you're screwed. It's pretty fun.

And it's definitely fun to dish out big serves and see people struggle with them. The guys all make jokes about it.

I imagine someone better than me feels the same about those monsters at their own level. They have the skills to match it and they enjoy the challenge, I guess.

It's just like boring when the game becomes all about the serve. There is a reason people rag on "servebots" all the time.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's just like boring when the game becomes all about the serve. There is a reason people rag on "servebots" all the time.

I wouldn't know as I've never been on the giving side.

I have been on the receiving end and it's frustrating.

However, that's tennis. It's up to me to adjust.

 

[Morch Us]

It's just like boring when the game becomes all about the serve. There is a reason people rag on "servebots" all the time.

I have been on the receiving end and it's frustrating.

When you are in tour I agree. But when you are playing USTA matches or matches with rate ceiling, there is nothig to be frustrated about. If the opponent has a huge serve for the level, then you know that his ground stroke game should be that bad for the level of play, and this is infact a huge advantage for you.

If you play with this in mind, you have almost no pressure to hold your serves, and you will get at least one opportunity to break him since you may get some lucky returns at times. Keep guessing the location of his serves, and hei... you got 50% chance to be right. Of course you may still miss some even if you guessed it right, but remember all you have to do is get the rally started, since you have advantage once rally starts. With this mindset, you will see that the percentage is on your side to make that break and win a set by 6-4 or 6-3 or 7-5.

Don't let it go to tiebreak though.... The scoreboard pressure will make your ground stroke rallies tougher, and servebots won't feel the same pressure on the shot the opponent has no control of (serve). So servebots usually has an advantage on tiebreaks.

 

[MyFearHand]

I don't know. I hit the biggest serve in my league and the second biggest hitter topped out at 99 mph yesterday.

He's a lefty and he has a nasty slice to go with that flat serve (obviously, it's slower, but he can pull you outside the doubles alley). It's pretty challenging and you have to read him well or you're screwed. It's pretty fun.

And it's definitely fun to dish out big serves and see people struggle with them. The guys all make jokes about it.

I imagine someone better than me feels the same about those monsters at their own level. They have the skills to match it and they enjoy the challenge, I guess.

I like playing against big servers, but that could be because my main hitting partner in high school has a massive serve. It really made everyone else's serve feel slow as molasses when I was training with him and I think it's a big reason my return is my best shot. You get aced a bunch and you miss a bunch of returns but it's fun to try and get it back. Nothing feels better than attacking your opponent's biggest weapon and coming out on top.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

When you are in tour I agree. But when you are playing USTA matches or matches with rate ceiling, there is nothig to be frustrated about. If the opponent has a huge serve for the level, then you know that his ground stroke game should be that bad for the level of play, and this is infact a huge advantage for you.

If you play with this in mind, you have almost no pressure to hold your serves, and you will get at least one opportunity to break him since you may get some lucky returns at times. Keep guessing the location of his serves, and hei... you got 50% chance to be right. That is more than enough.

it's not a given that they will have markedly inferior GSs. I've played multiple big servers whose ground game was better than mine [then again, a lot of my opponents have a better ground game since my strength is the net]. For them, the serve was just one component of a game that overall was better.

However, when I miss a lot of returns and I can't even start the point, that's frustrating, whether I'm on the tour or not.