Argument at my club today between a Tennis Pro and a club player (father).

[JohnP]

There was an interesting confrontation (shouting match, etc.) at my club today between a longtime club player (who also is the father of two young kids who play and take lessons at the club) and our club pro. I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and figured some of the people here on the boards might be interested in reading about it and have some interesting feedback. Here's the situation:

Said club player is in his mid to late 40s, and has been playing off and on at the club for a long time (15+ years). Recently his own playing has taken a backseat to that of coaching his son (who is a very competitive junior around age 10) and younger daughter (age 6 or 8 I believe) who is a beginner and takes lessons regularly from the local pro, who has been teaching at that club for about 6 or 7 years now.

Several years ago, the father met a woman who was at the club one day training with some friends, got to know her fairly well. It turns out, she is a world class player in her own right, and has taught/trained competitive juniors in the past (and is a registered USPTA professional). Over time, she became a good family friend of the father, his wife, and his kids (outside of tennis).

The son, as I said, is a very competitive player at his age, and "outgrew" the normal lessons from the local pro a couple of years ago. Recently, the woman has offered her time (as a friend, free of charge) to help train the son and give him semi-formal lessons/hitting sessions on a regular basis. So, recently she has been out hitting with the son on a regular basis at our club.

The local pro actually confronted the father awhile back about it, saying that this arrangement shouldn't be allowed, as of course he is the club pro and has a financial agreement with the club. He also argued that there was a "unwritten code" among tennis professionals that this shouldn't be allowed, etc. His major fear seems to be that if people see her giving people "lessons" that it will take business away from him. They came to some kind of informal agreement about it, but apparently had not been clear to each other about it, as there was a big blow up today over it.

Anyway, they came to a kind of agreement whereby she could hit with the son (and only him), but cannot do it with a ballhopper or machines, and has to hit with the son like a normal hitting session, as well as some other things to remove the "lesson" aspect of it. I can definitely understand both sides of the issue, but I thought it was an interesting situation. Any thoughts?

 

[Mister G]

I dont find anything wrong with that. If the coach cant coach his kid, he shouldnt, simple... Sounds like he's only pissed off because hes incompetant.

 

[Serve em Up]

The woman is a friend of the family. Is the woman a member of the club? If not, the woman would need to comform to the club's guests policy. Our club limits the number of times a person may be a guest/ month.

If she is a member, the club pro has no recourse. Members can hit allowed to hit with anyone they want. Even the kid is receiving instruction. If the woman is a member or conforms to the club;s guest policy, it doesn;t matter if she is giving instruction. The kid doesn;t want to take lessons from that pro. It is silly to have to go elsewhere to take is lesson. The courts don't belong to the club pro.

I would understand if it was another pro that was strictly "doing business" . However the personal relationship needs to be taken into consideration. Now if the woman started solicting to give other "members" lessons at the club that might be a different story.

 

[Topaz]

If the woman is not receiving any money, then I don't think the pro has any leg to stand on. It is true, however, that she shouldn't be using the hoppers or anything like that when hitting with the boy.

It does seem to be a fine line there, but generally in any club the only people who are allowed to 'instruct' are the club pros. I guess what is the real question is the definition of instruction, then.

Also, as others have mentioned, if she is a member of the club as well, then she can hit as much as she wants with another member.

 

[raiden031]

I don't see how what they were doing is any different than if me and a buddy of mine practiced together with a ball hopper. How can one distinguish between instruction and practicing?

 

[Topaz]

I don't see how what they were doing is any different than if me and a buddy of mine practiced together with a ball hopper. How can one distinguish between instruction and practicing?

Raiden, I'm not sure what the rules are at your club, but at mine the members are not allowed to use hoppers. I guess the connotation is that a hopper=instruction. Only the pros are supposed to be able to use them for their lessons/clinics.

 

[theace21]

This is a tough call for the teaching pro. He certainly is worried that he might be losing potential money to this lady. If she is working with top juniors for free, and these juniors are developing - she is going to get more inquires about giving paid lessons. While these paid lessons won't be allowed on the club grounds, I can see how this would hurt the pro. If someone other than a parent started working with and training a junior at my club, on a regular basis - I would sure think they are getting compensate in some way. I bet the pro see this the same way.

 

[raiden031]

Raiden, I'm not sure what the rules are at your club, but at mine the members are not allowed to use hoppers. I guess the connotation is that a hopper=instruction. Only the pros are supposed to be able to use them for their lessons/clinics.

I've never heard of that rule at mine, but I guess if everyone is banned from using them (except club pros) than it is fair. I also think that the annoyance of balls rolling to other courts is a fair reason to ban them as well.

 

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Very interesting... Same-type deal must come up a lot.
If the freind is meeting "guest" or member policies, the pro has nothing to say- I mean what if the father started giving the "instruction"?

All my club pros are top notch and are always finding ways to HELP Juniors (and club parents/members) with costs of training- Like offering Junior players a "punch card" system for ball machine at a discount- it maximizes utility of machine (off hours) and saves on normal fee. They feel if they can't do a good enough job, they should let others in.

For what we pay in fees, dining, trying to support club shop with purchasing/stringing- I would hope any "pro" would get together with ownership and spell out teaching rules on membership applications.

 

[atatu]

I think it's idiotic that members can't use hoppers at any club, as long as the hoppers don't belong to the club. I also think that one a broader scale, this type of mind set is what is holding back the development of juniors in the USA. A lot of teaching pros really only care about putting money in their pockets and less about developing talent and growing the game, that's a problem. When I used to teach I would always encourage the kids I taught to go to other clubs and play other players, to get more competition, but the pros at other clubs would never send their kids to my club, because they were afraid of losing students. When Sampras was growing up he would go to a lot of different teaching pros to learn different strokes, although he had one primary coach, it worked out pretty well for him....

 

[Jonny S&V]

If she isn't being payed and they are "semi-formal," then I see no reason why she shouldn't be allowed. If he starts to offer money, though, it would be kind've bad pool to be using another pros court. If that happens, they should go to some other court.

 

[CAM178]

Both sides have a point, but the club pro has a pretty weak argument. If someone better comes along to teach someone, then let them. Granted, it is kind of a slap in the face to do it at the same club.

The father is just looking out for the best interest of his children. If he can find someone to teach his son who is world class, by all means have them teach him! The club pro is a bit embarrassed, that's all. But he should be the bigger man and swallow his pride. After all, I think that it is a big no-no for him to say ANYTHING to a paying member, as they essentially pay his salary. To me that would be like someone going up to their boss and slapping them, then following it up with 'Profits are down. Start doing your job!' I can tell you about how many seconds that employee would have to clean out their desk!

 

[Fedace]

I had something similar happen to me. There was a pro runnning special on the Lesson fee, $10 cheaper for 4 weeks. Someone found out and almost drove him out of the club and suspended him. I took lessons with him at the cheaper rate for 3 weeks before they found out.

 

[Craig Sheppard]

This seems to come up a lot ... my question has always been, if you can't use your OWN club where you're a member to train with another member, where are you supposed to? You have to find public court somewhere? Public courts (city parks, etc) usually have rules against using their facilities for business w/o an arrangement with the city. It's a ridiculous situation. That leaves no options if you want to bring someone in who isn't an "established" pro somewhere.

The club is private, you're paying for the right to play. You shouldn't be restricted to who you play with. What is going on here is a basic workplace competition. What the head pro should do is have the woman sign a non-compete agreement with the club that strictly spells out that she will not accept money for lessons while using club facilities. If she's not agreeable to that situation, then she needs to offer some percentage of her fees to the club to compensate them for losing money training the kid. Once money changes hand, it is business and both sides need to have a business arrangement. Both sides have a valid argument, but it's not an uncommon situation and should be easily settled.

 

[NoBadMojo]

There was an interesting confrontation (shouting match, etc.) at my club today between a longtime club player (who also is the father of two young kids who play and take lessons at the club) and our club pro. I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and figured some of the people here on the boards might be interested in reading about it and have some interesting feedback. Here's the situation:

Said club player is in his mid to late 40s, and has been playing off and on at the club for a long time (15+ years). Recently his own playing has taken a backseat to that of coaching his son (who is a very competitive junior around age 10) and younger daughter (age 6 or 8 I believe) who is a beginner and takes lessons regularly from the local pro, who has been teaching at that club for about 6 or 7 years now.

Several years ago, the father met a woman who was at the club one day training with some friends, got to know her fairly well. It turns out, she is a world class player in her own right, and has taught/trained competitive juniors in the past (and is a registered USPTA professional). Over time, she became a good family friend of the father, his wife, and his kids (outside of tennis).

The son, as I said, is a very competitive player at his age, and "outgrew" the normal lessons from the local pro a couple of years ago. Recently, the woman has offered her time (as a friend, free of charge) to help train the son and give him semi-formal lessons/hitting sessions on a regular basis. So, recently she has been out hitting with the son on a regular basis at our club.

The local pro actually confronted the father awhile back about it, saying that this arrangement shouldn't be allowed, as of course he is the club pro and has a financial agreement with the club. He also argued that there was a "unwritten code" among tennis professionals that this shouldn't be allowed, etc. His major fear seems to be that if people see her giving people "lessons" that it will take business away from him. They came to some kind of informal agreement about it, but apparently had not been clear to each other about it, as there was a big blow up today over it.

Anyway, they came to a kind of agreement whereby she could hit with the son (and only him), but cannot do it with a ballhopper or machines, and has to hit with the son like a normal hitting session, as well as some other things to remove the "lesson" aspect of it. I can definitely understand both sides of the issue, but I thought it was an interesting situation. Any thoughts?

There is no way a 10 year old would 'outgrow' tennis lessons given by any reasonable teaching pro.

Also, having been a teaching pro off and on for many years teaching at a number of diff facilities, I would never give a lesson at a club where I am not a teaching pro which has at least one staff teaching pro. If it was under some special circumstance to do this, I would certainly speak to the staff pro asking for permission first before doing such a thing. It's a professional courtesy and not fear of losing business. If the kid is to work with another pro, thats fine...do it at a muni court, a private court or some other place which doesnt have staff teaching pros. i've also never taught at a facility which doesnt allow ball hoppers..thats absurd <unless a club which doesnt have dividers between the courts or something as it isnt cool to have balls flying all over an adjoining court>

 

[Geezer Guy]

I know our club has a written policy which outlines what lessons are allowed and not allowed. I don't have kids, so I'm not too familiar with the policy. I know parents can coach their own kids all they want (with hoppers). Obviously, the rules need to be written and published - complaining about someone not following an unwritten rule is just stupid.

 

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

If you can't hold your own students, at the lesson prices you want to charge, you should get dumped on your butt.
I think it is clear that there are many ways to run the business end of a professional's livelihood short of protectionism- It's an open market and chasing people around the club checking if they have "crossed" some line between advise and teaching doesn't cut it.

 

[sureshs]

If you can't hold your own students, at the lesson prices you want to charge, you should get dumped on your butt.
I think it is clear that there are many ways to run the business end of a professional's livelihood short of protectionism- It's an open market and chasing people around the club checking if they have "crossed" some line between advise and teaching doesn't cut it.

I don't agree. If the pro has a contract with the club that offers him protection from other pros teaching there, he has a right to protest. It is not a free market situation. There are many such examples like no-compete clauses in business, exclusive right to run a franchise in a given neighborhood etc. That is the precondition in which someone may have started a business, in this case, coaching.

 

[LPShanet]

There was an interesting confrontation (shouting match, etc.) at my club today between a longtime club player (who also is the father of two young kids who play and take lessons at the club) and our club pro. I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and figured some of the people here on the boards might be interested in reading about it and have some interesting feedback. Here's the situation:

Said club player is in his mid to late 40s, and has been playing off and on at the club for a long time (15+ years). Recently his own playing has taken a backseat to that of coaching his son (who is a very competitive junior around age 10) and younger daughter (age 6 or 8 I believe) who is a beginner and takes lessons regularly from the local pro, who has been teaching at that club for about 6 or 7 years now.

Several years ago, the father met a woman who was at the club one day training with some friends, got to know her fairly well. It turns out, she is a world class player in her own right, and has taught/trained competitive juniors in the past (and is a registered USPTA professional). Over time, she became a good family friend of the father, his wife, and his kids (outside of tennis).

The son, as I said, is a very competitive player at his age, and "outgrew" the normal lessons from the local pro a couple of years ago. Recently, the woman has offered her time (as a friend, free of charge) to help train the son and give him semi-formal lessons/hitting sessions on a regular basis. So, recently she has been out hitting with the son on a regular basis at our club.

The local pro actually confronted the father awhile back about it, saying that this arrangement shouldn't be allowed, as of course he is the club pro and has a financial agreement with the club. He also argued that there was a "unwritten code" among tennis professionals that this shouldn't be allowed, etc. His major fear seems to be that if people see her giving people "lessons" that it will take business away from him. They came to some kind of informal agreement about it, but apparently had not been clear to each other about it, as there was a big blow up today over it.

Anyway, they came to a kind of agreement whereby she could hit with the son (and only him), but cannot do it with a ballhopper or machines, and has to hit with the son like a normal hitting session, as well as some other things to remove the "lesson" aspect of it. I can definitely understand both sides of the issue, but I thought it was an interesting situation. Any thoughts?

Not sure why no one has talked to club management. Seems to me that would be the simple answer. If they have no problem with it, then fine (and the pro will have to shut up), and if they say he's got to use the club pro (or go to another facility) then it will be resolved, and he'll have to do that. As a private facility, they can decide how they want things to be handled.

 

[onehandbh]

Sometimes clubs only allow their staff to give lessons b/c the club
gets a cut of the fee charged to the student. If you're using
a ball hopper on a court that isn't enclosed by a fence or net on all sides
then there's a good chance that a lot of your balls will be rolling/landing
onto the adjacent courts. Heck, even if you're just hitting serves down the middle of
the T some balls will whack the back fence and bounce toward the other
courts.

 

[Ripper]

Any two members of a club can play, practice, train against each other without having to explain anything to the tennis pro, management or whoever. PERIOD.

 

[Richie Rich]

the clubs around me have rules stating that ball hoppers are for the club teaching pros only.

now, if you have been a long time member of the club, and you come to the courts when they are not busy (middle of weekday, or after 9pm) the club pro's have no issue with anyone bringing a ball hopper to the court. i've seen it hundreds of times.

the pro's get their share of adult lessons so why kick up a fuss over the odd junior that doesn't use them only?

 

[J-man]

There was an interesting confrontation (shouting match, etc.) at my club today between a longtime club player (who also is the father of two young kids who play and take lessons at the club) and our club pro. I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and figured some of the people here on the boards might be interested in reading about it and have some interesting feedback. Here's the situation:

Said club player is in his mid to late 40s, and has been playing off and on at the club for a long time (15+ years). Recently his own playing has taken a backseat to that of coaching his son (who is a very competitive junior around age 10) and younger daughter (age 6 or 8 I believe) who is a beginner and takes lessons regularly from the local pro, who has been teaching at that club for about 6 or 7 years now.

Several years ago, the father met a woman who was at the club one day training with some friends, got to know her fairly well. It turns out, she is a world class player in her own right, and has taught/trained competitive juniors in the past (and is a registered USPTA professional). Over time, she became a good family friend of the father, his wife, and his kids (outside of tennis).

The son, as I said, is a very competitive player at his age, and "outgrew" the normal lessons from the local pro a couple of years ago. Recently, the woman has offered her time (as a friend, free of charge) to help train the son and give him semi-formal lessons/hitting sessions on a regular basis. So, recently she has been out hitting with the son on a regular basis at our club.

The local pro actually confronted the father awhile back about it, saying that this arrangement shouldn't be allowed, as of course he is the club pro and has a financial agreement with the club. He also argued that there was a "unwritten code" among tennis professionals that this shouldn't be allowed, etc. His major fear seems to be that if people see her giving people "lessons" that it will take business away from him. They came to some kind of informal agreement about it, but apparently had not been clear to each other about it, as there was a big blow up today over it.

Anyway, they came to a kind of agreement whereby she could hit with the son (and only him), but cannot do it with a ballhopper or machines, and has to hit with the son like a normal hitting session, as well as some other things to remove the "lesson" aspect of it. I can definitely understand both sides of the issue, but I thought it was an interesting situation. Any thoughts?

The kid is getting practice from the woman, so it sounds fine to me even without the ball machines and stuff

 

[JohnP]

There is no way a 10 year old would 'outgrow' tennis lessons given by any reasonable teaching pro.

Well, he did. The local pro as far as i've seen is not much interested in doing much past the ball-feeding type of lesson. I don't think the situation had anything to do with any hard feelings about him no longer taking lessons, though.

 

[Cindysphinx]

So . . . at some clubs, I wouldn't be allowed to work on my serve by myself using a hopper?

You know, I heard that around here, pros aren't supposed to teach lessons at public parks unless they have a license/permit from the county. I highly doubt my pro has such a license/permit.

Me, I think this requirement is way beyond stupid. What is the point? Hey, he pays taxes like the next guy, why shouldn't he be able to use public courts if the court is open?

 

[CAM178]

There is no way a 10 year old would 'outgrow' tennis lessons given by any reasonable teaching pro.

Ah, but therein lies the rub: what is a 'reasonable' teaching pro? Too open for subjectivity.

I disagree, as I have come across too many teaching pros in my time who could be better at their job. That is not singling out that profession. It is the same with all professions. Sometimes it is not even because the pro is a bad teacher. Rather, it is because it is a bad matchup between the teacher and the student.

In this case, this 10 yr old seems happy with this woman teaching him. In this situation, what's more important?: the child's happiness, or the child seeing grown-ups fight because of ego? My vote goes to keep the child happy and loving this sport that we all love so much.

 

[WBF]

Unless there is a policy against teaching specifically without pay, the Pro has no leg to stang on. My father taught me tennis, I'm teaching my fiancee tennis, I've helped out friends before... If no money is being exchanged (if there were, most policies would make this a problem), if should be fine.

Who's to say that when two people hit, the better person isn't giving them lessons?

As for someone mentioning not using a hopper... Why? That is completely irrelevent.

 

[WBF]

You know, I heard that around here, pros aren't supposed to teach lessons at public parks unless they have a license/permit from the county. I highly doubt my pro has such a license/permit.

Me, I think this requirement is way beyond stupid. What is the point? Hey, he pays taxes like the next guy, why shouldn't he be able to use public courts if the court is open?

This situation is a bit different though, no money is even changing hand. I could think of several reasons not letting people teach on public courts would be good... They annoy other players, they would probably tie up the court for lengthy periods of time, many public courts will have specific people they allow to give lessons, etc. I'm sure cities usually have better reasons as well

I do agree with you though, as long as they aren't tying up courts (but this would be a major problem).

 

[Crisp]

I'm Not sure what goes on in the U.S but i am a coach in Australia and i ALWAYS clarify with the resident coach that i can use there court for teaching if i have to use another venue. I beleive that this is courteous as i know that i pay to coach at my courts and its only fair that i have sole use of the venue as that is in the contract, most of the time i and other coaches are happy for this to happen on one offs. In this case it seems that it is a regular thing and the club pro should contact the other coach directly to clarify the situation.

 

[CAM178]

I could think of several reasons not letting people teach on public courts would be good... They annoy other players, they would probably tie up the court for lengthy periods of time, many public courts will have specific people they allow to give lessons, etc.

Agreed as to teaching on public courts. Not much more annoying than constantly hitting balls back over to the court next to you while you're trying to play a match. It gets tiring when they keep saying 'Sorry!' I feel like saying 'If you were truly sorry, you would move to a court that won't interfere with a match.'

But I don't understand your comment about a public court having specific people to teach there. It's a public court, so how could only certain people be allowed to teach there? It's for the public, so I'm confused. Only private clubs have rules about teaching if you're not on staff, and even that is a hairy subject, as bringing this up can lead to one's termination. That's why I'm so appalled at the OP's mention that the pro had a fit, as most all of the clubs where I have been a member, the pros and staff don't say one negative word to members. That is job suicide.

 

[10s talk]

The club teaching pro is right, it is unethical for another pro to work with the boy.Even if all she was doing was hitting with him, she should have requested permission from the pro.

I think the USPTA, and PTR pros have a code of conduct that deals with this, and the female pro should abide by the code even if she's not a member.

 

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

The club teaching pro is right, it is unethical for another pro to work with the boy.Even if all she was doing was hitting with him, she should have requested permission from the pro.

I think the USPTA, and PTR pros have a code of conduct that deals with this, and the female pro should abide by the code even if she's not a member.

If I play with a coach and don't pay him/her, I don't see who's business it is to interfere. If you sleep with a woman and you don't pay her she is not a prostitute.

 

[Clintspin]

If she is not getting paid and it is not in the form of a lesson, no problem. The Club Pro cannot chase away any players that have decided to hit. Even if it is super beneficial to the young player. Maybe the lady just enjoys the hitting. I am a teaching pro and enjoy hitting with the young players and other members when I am not getting paid to do so.

If she is getting paid, that is really wrong. If she is not getting paid but it still looks like a lesson, that is not good. Allowing a lesson type format other than a parent would set a very bad precedent. Soon lots of players would be doing hopper lessons with anybody but the Teaching Pros. There are very few places that a Pro would work that are going to make them rich. Most of us are just trying to pay the bills.

 

[Tennis-Chris]

No Problem

My club allows the use of ball machines and ball hoppers without a pro being on court. I would think the club would do everything it could to support the development of a member. My club holds these kids up as a beacon. Several of our pros grew up in the club, competed nationally and internationally and returned home at the end of their playing career.

The club needs to gain a perspective that is a little broader than one pro's ego.:mrgreen:

 

[WildVolley]

I find it a little hard to believe that there are clubs that won't let you practice your serve (meaning using a ball hopper) or other strokes without paying for lesson fees. It's been a lot of years since I've been a member of a club, but why would anyone join a club that had such preposterous rules?

 

[koopa_troopa]

I don't know about these ball hopper rules, but at local clubs they allow using baskets for serving and hitting, but they specifically say "no basket feeding" to prevent teaching.

I think the teaching pro is correct to complain unless the female instructor is not teaching at another club. If she is teaching professionally somewhere else, she is essentially getting free publicity. People have been saying its ok if its free or that the instructor should become better if he wants business. But if she is potentially taking business away from the club and their designated teaching pros, I feel the teacher certainly has a right to step in. What is the point then in becoming an exclusive teaching pro at a club?

Also, if you let anyone to teach, a lot of kids may get bad instructors just trying to make some extra money part time. (In comparison, I know a lot of people who can't teach, but tutor kids anyways because parents are willing to pay them $25+/hour). I think letting the approved instructor is the best way to go. If you don't like what he/she offers, go to another club (if possible).

 

[drakulie]

Any two members of a club can play, practice, train against each other without having to explain anything to the tennis pro, management or whoever. PERIOD.

Completely agree.

There is no way a 10 year old would 'outgrow' tennis lessons given by any reasonable teaching pro.

Well, he did. The local pro as far as i've seen is not much interested in doing much past the ball-feeding type of lesson.

Once again, agreed. Most coaches are not anymore interested than simply feeding balls, or checking their student's string tension and equipment. They don't teach their kids the rules of the game, strategy, how to move their feet, etc.

And as you correctly stated, lots of students outgrow their coach. Heck, it even happens to pro coaches coaching on the ATP tour. Look at Roddick's first coach. Roddick felt he outgrew what he could learn from him and went to Gilbert.

BTW, lots of so-called teahing pros are nothing more than beginners. It isn't very hard to get certified. I've met people who have been playing tennis for a little over a year and have a certificate to teach.

 

[J011yroger]

But I don't understand your comment about a public court having specific people to teach there. It's a public court, so how could only certain people be allowed to teach there?

Most towns here have tennis programs, so the parks will have signs posted that only town of Xyz instructors are permitted to give lessons.

J

 

[jmsx521]

If I play with a coach and don't pay him/her, I don't see who's business it is to interfere. If you sleep with a woman and you don't pay her she is not a prostitute.

Best post of the thread!

 

[Kaptain Karl]

The private clubs I've seen in Colorado don't have rules agains ball hoppers ... but they ALL have rules limitng "teaching" and "coaching" to the staff Pros.

Many of the club Pros have "understandings" with families like the OP's situation where the "family friend" can hit and "help" the player, but it has to NOT "look like" a lesson to the casual observer. And the family friend better also be a member. (It's really silly. Anybody can see what's happening. But it preserves the "form" for all involved.)

The OP's case sounds like the TP's ego got bent out of shape.

- KK