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we actually call them ‘portmanteau’
Barty vs Osaka - who is greater as of now?
- Thread starter abmk
- Start date
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
I still think it’s an oxymoron, for the combination of what the two items in that name represent separately.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
No, but Barty was defeated by Serena twice at the majors. Further, the one time Barty met Osaka in a major--the AO of 2018--Barty was easily defeated. One of the reasons is inspiration: Osaka knows Serena's game so well, as she admired and structured part of her own game on Serena's, hence the kind of impact she has when "on."
AlexanderTheGreat08
Hall of Fame
Fairly even. It's hard to give one the edge when the other has more variety in majors and she's more consistent on tour whilr the other has more majors overall than her
D-Lite
Hall of Fame
To this point, Osaka edges it but Barty is on the verge of overtaking simply through consistency and week at #1, once she wins a 4th major. The fact remains that Barty is a threat at all 4 majors, whereas Osaka is only a threat on hardcourts, period. I do believe Osaka will return to the heights of her former achievements. The fact she lost to Anisimova so tightly after no competition since the USO'21 is promising even if it was a loss. She would likely have been drubbed by Barty in the 4R anyway.
The thing this rivalry is missing is match-ups. These 2 have only played 4 times, 3 of which happened in 2018/2019 but arguably not in their prime years. Once we have them playing 4 times per year for a few years the match-up will become a lot more apparent. Also, once we see them playing the same top players regularly we can gauge their H2H versus other top players of this generation.
I think Osaka has a lot of work to do on grass and clay to become any kind of threat. From this, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends her career on 5-7 majors when her game with solid movement on clay/grass could harvest something more like 11-14 majors overall (ballpark figures IMO).
The thing this rivalry is missing is match-ups. These 2 have only played 4 times, 3 of which happened in 2018/2019 but arguably not in their prime years. Once we have them playing 4 times per year for a few years the match-up will become a lot more apparent. Also, once we see them playing the same top players regularly we can gauge their H2H versus other top players of this generation.
I think Osaka has a lot of work to do on grass and clay to become any kind of threat. From this, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends her career on 5-7 majors when her game with solid movement on clay/grass could harvest something more like 11-14 majors overall (ballpark figures IMO).
alexio
G.O.A.T.
looks more like contaminatio rather than oxymoron, although if those two terms can be the same, i'm not sure..so it can both be correct lol
abmk
Bionic Poster
Barty wasn't even a top 10 player back in AO 2018 or RG 2018 or end of 2018 for that matter
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I would too. Apart from more titles and a longer reign at no. 1 (which was aided by covid), I see Barty as a player who is building up her game and improving while Osaka is playing the same game as 2018. That's why when Anisimova began to beat her at her own game, she had no answers. Trying to divine the future is unwise but Barty looks set up to win more slams while Osaka is in a lot of trouble right now.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I mean even if Barty has got some more weeks at #1 extra due to COVID-19 and we shouldn't take the #s at face value, she'd still be #1 for longer than Osaka even without that, no?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Surprised Naomi only has 7 titles.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Osaka has definitely had the tougher draws, but I'm not sure if just top 10 is the way to go about it.
Worthy opponents (combination of level+mental toughness required to overcome):
Osaka in her slam wins:
Sabalenka USO 18
Serena USO 18
Hsieh AO 19
Sevastova AO 19?
Pliskova AO 19
Kvitova AO 19
Brady USO 20
Azarenka USO 20
Muguruza AO 21
Serena AO 21
Brady AO 21
Barty in her slam wins:
Kenin RG 19
Anisimova RG 19
Kerber Wim 21
Pliskova Wim 21
Anisimova AO 22
Collins AO 22
abmk
Bionic Poster
I mean if we're talking about just the slams, I'd still give the edge to Osaka given she's faced tougher draws and her peak level on HC better than Barty's anywhere.
more # of weeks at #1 for barty which includes winning titles outside of slams more consistently just barely puts her over Osaka overall right now IMO.
Osaka needs to put in her work to adapt for atleast either of clay/grass. Needs to improve movement on either. Patience on clay and transition/net game on grass.
kimboslice
New User
Barty Party. Her improvements are here to stay and her variety is too good. She also shown that she problem solves incredibly well, being down so far in the AO final.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Osaka is sorta like Stan in the non-slam events, lol.
abmk
Bionic Poster
WTA is weak, but less so than ATP.
And younger talent lot more promising.
Oh and Neither of Osaka or Barty are mugs.
yourtennisfit
Semi-Pro
Yeah Barty sure did a lot to be ranked every week in 2020...
Ashleigh Barty | Player Stats & More – WTA Official
Get the latest Player Stats on Ashleigh Barty including her videos, highlights, and more at the official Women's Tennis Association website.www.wtatennis.com
Those weeks weren't counted towards her - but rather seen as a frozen ranking. So not really a point against Barty here.
For me this isn't even a close competition - Barty is by far the better, more skilled, more elegant and more successful player.
And she hasn't even played full season mostly, but rather stayed at home for longer stretches. Really excited what she can bring onto the tour this year, with the rest of the WTA struggling so much, she could be very well set for at least 3 slams.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
I like Barty. She's consistent and seems genuine. Osaka creates too much drama for herself.
RaulRamirez
Legend
As of now, Barty.
Slams are the most important single ingredient, but Barty has so many other accomplishments that make up for the one-slam deficit
Slams are the most important single ingredient, but Barty has so many other accomplishments that make up for the one-slam deficit
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Greater has to be Barty unless you have a "slams only" mentality and even there Barty has 3 different ones on 3 different surfaces, and more consistent slam results overall (even if neither are that consistent). All that time at #1 vs barely any for Osaka and 3 YE#1 vs 0 for Osaka. And I know some of those were weird with the whole Covid thing but that isn't Barty's fault and seeing her consistency vs the rest of the tour even when play is more active I think she likely spends most/all that time at #1 anyway.
TennisManiac
Hall of Fame
Barty for sure. Weeks at #1 and titles says it all. No debate needed.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I could see her adapting to grass and hope she does once she gets her act together.
Clay I think will be hard for her, as I don't think she has the patience for clay.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Osaka had an open path to taking HC slams by the bunch because no one in this field could stand up to her peak level, instead she pussies out with mental anguish because some meanies dare criticise her too much, oh noes. What is this if not a mark of a massive mug?
Barty is a nice humble down-to-earth personality, but tennis-wise she's obviously vulturing, no top 10 wins in three slam title runs LOL. If such a thing happened on the men's tour, weak hoarding would be the first thing for us to say. That the runs have been quite dominant shows her level isn't krap but nothing beyond, given how feeble her opposition was form-wise.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Personality has nothing to do with greatness. Just look at Pete Sampras
That's what I said, duh.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
I know.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Rankings were frozen from March 20 to August 9th. And there was only one tournament held in October and November. Don’t act like it was the whole year.Yeah Barty sure did a lot to be ranked every week in 2020...
Ashleigh Barty | Player Stats & More – WTA Official
Get the latest Player Stats on Ashleigh Barty including her videos, highlights, and more at the official Women's Tennis Association website.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I have the split up here. Now let me add on. See below.
Firstly Osaka:
USO 18: Sabalenka was actually playing well and Osaka barely edged her out in USO 18. And not easy to maintain compsure vs Serena in your first slam final. Osaka did and made the final (incl. the scoreline) easier than it was.
AO 19 - Hsieh was troubling her with variety and Osaka managed to problem solve. And of course Kvitova was a worthy, good level opponent in the final
USO 20 - Azarenka was in-form came out firing and was rushing Osaka like almost no one else could. Granted Azarenka's level dipped to an extent afterwards, but Osaka managed to raise her level and problem solve. Brady was playing some good (though not great) tennis in the semi.
AO 21 - very close match with Muguruza.
You are under-estimating her level/competition. Not an open path as you make it out to be. As far as the other stuff goes, yeah, she's paying the price for that, isn't she? Doesn't change what she's done before that. Osaka obviously needs to recharge, focus and get back on track. If she doesn't, obviously strength of WTA will go down.
Now Barty:
Pliskova was seeded #8 in Wim 21 (deservedly so).
RG 19: Anisimova played a pretty good semi. That RG is when she burst into the scene. She had dominated defending champ Halep in the QF (losing 6 games). Barty was down a break in the 2nd set IIRC and came back.
Wim 21: Barty beat former Wimbledon champ Kerber in the semi and then a good form Pliskova in the final (though Pliskova was not as good as she was in the semi vs Sabalenka)
AO 22: weakest of the 3 slams competition wise given Anismiva didn't play as well as she did in RG 19 in the respective matches and Collins' serve went down in the 2nd set (Barty raised her level significantly to come back tho')
Weaker competition than Osaka, but not as weak as you make it out to be.
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
He could be greater than Fed maybe but not Djokovic. Djokovic leads H2H against him, has many more weeks at no.1/years ended no.1, won four slams in a row, has more YECs etc etc. As you can see, Fed ticks some of these boxes too other than H2H and four slams in a row. So it's not a cinch yet that Nadal is GOAT though media is going to simply focus on the slam race and crown him GOAT. Fed fans brought this on themselves by saying the slam race matters during the years he did lead it just to counter Nadal fans talking about H2H. The argument should have always been about at least slams and no.1 taken together.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Osaka sure had a proper level and some opponents that at least made her show it. Not disputing that. Her future path was/is ripe for the taking though, that's what I meant. Kvitova is down, Azarenka is down. Sabalenka is a ballbashing choke artist, don't bring her as some great competition because she will *always* hit herself out in a big match if the opponent persists enough. She's yet to play clutch in a slam like Kvitova, Azarenka, Muguruza actually did. That's why I hardly see it fit to care much for a close match she may give to a better opponent, because it doesn't actually translate into any significant probability of winning because a choke inevitably happens. So yeah, that leaves Muguruza and she's inconsistent so Osaka may not even meet her. Barty has now added herself into the mix but I don't trust her level to hold up to Osaka's still, beating lesser opponents isn't quite that. It's just pretty pathetic of Osaka to flop like that mentally when you're the favourite for HC slams, isn't it? Kinda copying Williams, who flopped a lot, but was just so much better than the rest she could always come back and win again, but Osaka will never be *that* good.
As for Barty, like come on, don't beat around the bush with accomplishments and prior wins - where's the actual level? Seriously, big lol if you think any of her opponents in those runs displayed a historically notable level at all. The Anisimova match you chose to bring up was a total clown show, from 5-0* 40-15 to 5-6* to 6-7 0-3 to 6-7 6-3 to 6-7 6-3 1-2* to 6-7 6-3 5-2, sheer zig-zagging and that obviously doesn't happen in an actual quality match because quality means the players are too steady to allow such huge swings to happen, period. The rest weren't so clowny but the point persists that the actual tennis wasn't all that. I like Barty, as I said, and she's at least playing decently but let her actually face an ATG-level opponent to gauge how well she's playing in actuality. None of those come close.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Both Osaka and Sabalenka were upcoming at the time of USO 18. Not correct to tag her as a choke artist for that match based on what's happened later in the future.
Yeah, what happens in the future on HC is another question, but I didn't talk about that much.
swings can happen like that on clay. granted there were dips from both and it wasn't the highest quality. But not an easy opponent/match.
Barty's playing more than decently. She's playing pretty good.
At AO 22, Anisimova took out a good form Osaka, but Barty was able to dissect her and make her play worse.
But sure, she needs to be tested by higher level opponent to judge her level more accurately. That she raised her level vs Collins when down 1-5 in the 2nd set was encouraging.
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