Benchmark/Computer rated NTRP videos

onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Since there seems to be a lot of disagreement, perceptions and confusion
regarding what the actual NTRP levels look like, I've started a thread to
that hopefully can be used as a reference.

Also please state if the videos are from a league match or tournament
match since they can be quite different due to sandbagging, etc.

Please add videos that fit the following guidelines and additional info.

1) whole games.
2) only official USTA matches.
3) official ratings of the players.
4) section/state of players.

Here's a video to start it off:

_____________________________________________________________
USTA (benchmark) 4.5 doubles (southern California):

http://onehandbh.tennis-scheduler.com/USTA_doubles_match.mov



_________________________________________________________________
USTA 4.0 league match in NJ (from maverick1)


Singles players here have winning records between .300 and .600 in USTA leagues.
#1 singles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB4RLZguN4
#2 singles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaazJs35qCU
# 2 doubles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4S-VS7wZ4

________________________________________________________________
3.5 videos (3.5 USTA match on 5-12-2007 in NJ; video from maverick1)

Two games from each match:
#1 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ
#2 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9FKDpSi_g
#1 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izndzXz_qdA
#2 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlflUSQ5ZaI (on HarTru clay)
#3 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b8pjKelb5A
 
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K

Kevo

Legend
onehandbh said:
Benchmark 4.5 doubles (souther California):
http://onehandbh.tennis-scheduler.com/USTA_doubles_match.mov
Click to expand...

I would have guessed 4.0-4.5. They look similar to some of the better 4.0 teams here in Texas, and I've heard that California is typically a little ahead of where we are, so that's why I would have started at 4.0. Of course it's also a little bit hard to tell on the basis of one service game. I've had service games where people watching have said I should be 5.0, but then the next service game I'll double fault 2-3 times, so it's all relative.
 
Mike Cottrill

Mike Cottrill

Hall of Fame
What CODEC or compressor do I need to play this video. I get "required compressor can not be found" QT, Real player and others I have.
Thanks. Says MP4 but will not play with real player 10.5

edit:
Never mind, got latest QT and it had the codec
 
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V

Vitaly Evchenkov

Guest
Although the video looks a little "slowed" those shots are seem a little too loopy and lacking in pace for 4.5. The last serve was nice placement, but other then that, I saw a lot of lollipop serves and the net play was ugly. Looks 4.0 to me... if not lower.

But I think the idea is good. Now lets see some real 4.5 play. I will be doing some training in FL next week and might have some video to share....
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
The video probably looks slow b/c I was pretty far back. A lot of the
courts at Indian Wells Tennis Garden have *very* large areas behind the
baseline. The distance from the baseline to the back fence (or wall) is
possibly twice as far as regular courts.

I believe it was the first game, so play was a little sloppier. I think the team
that was serving went undefeated during 4.5 sectionals and (possibly the regular league season as well). Not sure if they played all the toughest
teams b/c few teams play their lineups straightup.
 
Mike Cottrill

Mike Cottrill

Hall of Fame
onehandbh said:
I think the team that was serving went undefeated during 4.5 sectionals and (possibly the regular league season as well). Not sure if they played all the toughest
teams b/c few teams play their lineups straightup.
Click to expand...
That play is in line with what I see in TX for 4.5 doubles. Their net communication seems a little off for champs though.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Vitaly Evchenkov said:
Although the video looks a little "slowed" those shots are seem a little too loopy and lacking in pace for 4.5. The last serve was nice placement, but other then that, I saw a lot of lollipop serves and the net play was ugly. Looks 4.0 to me... if not lower.

Now lets see some real 4.5 play.
Click to expand...

The OP already confirmed this was one game from a 4.5 level match. What do you not understand?


Vitaly Evchenkov said:
I will be doing some training in FL next week and might have some video to share....
Click to expand...

You do that tough guy.
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Perhaps you can set up a match w/drakulie and tape a few games.
Show everyone what you mean by real "4.5".
 
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M

maverick1

Semi-Pro
Some 4.0 videos

I was at a USTA 4.0 league match 1 week ago. Taped some points from 3 different matches.

Unfortunately, the only feasible angle was from the side of the court, and I could only get half the court at a time.

All four singles players here have winning records between .300 and .600 in USTA leagues. The doubles players are weaker.

#1 singles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB4RLZguN4
#2 singles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaazJs35qCU
# 2 doubles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4S-VS7wZ4
 
Andres

Andres

G.O.A.T.
The guy from the 1st video has a weird forehand... very ala McEnroe :)

Edit: Also a weird McEnroe backhand :)
 
L

LarougeNY

Professional
The guy in the #2 singles video with the blue shirt in the beginning looks much better than the guy in the #1 singles with the unusual strokse.
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
Those 4.0 guys look so terrible. Video just doesn't do tennis players justice. You watch a 4.0 league match in person and the guys look pretty decent.
 
jamauss

jamauss

Hall of Fame
Where is this that has a 4.0 league of this caliber? Apparently the 4.0 league I'm in is pretty competitive. :)
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
koolperson359 said:
hey onehandbh the link you posted doesn't work...is there another link u can post? thanks
Click to expand...

I'll look into it.

It's hard to judge ability by watching a video, but it can serve as a reference.
The closeness of the camera and angle can make a *huge* difference.
Try this as an example the next time you're a passenger in a car
going about 25 mph. Look at trees in the distance as you pass them.
Now look at a tree that is nearby as you pass it. If you look at the tree
nearby it will appear as if the car is going *MUCH* faster.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
jamauss said:
Where is this that has a 4.0 league of this caliber? Apparently the 4.0 league I'm in is pretty competitive. :)
Click to expand...

Have you seen yourslef play on low quality video? I mean...it makes everyone look bad, you could be watching sampras and fed on youtube and think they were 4.5-5.0. Don't knock others or jump to conclusions until you have seen yourself play, lemme tell ya, it aint pretty.

J
 
H

Hokiez

Rookie
Thanks for the videos! Is there a big difference regionally between the quality of NTRP players? I was bumped this year after a year at 3.5 and play 4.0 singles. I think I'd have no problem at all beating any of those singles players and wondering if a 4.0 in one region is a 3.5 in another? The quality of the shots looks OK, the form is a little off (but what 4.0 isn't off a little really?) but the consistency didn't look very good. Unforced errors off loopy second serves and low first serve %. Perhaps the conditions were really harsh?
 
M

maverick1

Semi-Pro
Hokiez said:
Thanks for the videos! Is there a big difference regionally between the quality of NTRP players? I was bumped this year after a year at 3.5 and play 4.0 singles. I think I'd have no problem at all beating any of those singles players and wondering if a 4.0 in one region is a 3.5 in another? The quality of the shots looks OK, the form is a little off (but what 4.0 isn't off a little really?) but the consistency didn't look very good. Unforced errors off loopy second serves and low first serve %. Perhaps the conditions were really harsh?
Click to expand...

Read J011yroger's post before yours.

One of the guys in the video also got bumped up to 4.0 after reaching the finals of the nationals in 3.5 in 2006.

Again, Read J011yroger's post above.
 
zapvor

zapvor

G.O.A.T.
onehandbh said:
Since there seems to be a lot of disagreement, perceptions and confusion
regarding what the actual NTRP levels look like, I've started a thread to
that hopefully can be used as a reference.



Here's a video to start it off:

Benchmark 4.5 doubles (souther California):
http://onehandbh.tennis-scheduler.com/USTA_doubles_match.mov
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USTA 4.0 league match in NJ (from maverick1)

Singles players here have winning records between .300 and .600 in USTA leagues.
#1 singles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB4RLZguN4#2 singles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaazJs35qCU
# 2 doubles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4S-VS7wZ4
Click to expand...

he is 4.0 singles#1?????????

edit: ok double faults everywhere, and not even close. the balls are going to the bottom of the net. sucky bakhand, and missed every slice attempt. i mean it looked horrible....good feet moving though.
 
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Andres

Andres

G.O.A.T.
goober

goober

Legend
maverick1 said:
A 3.5 USTA league tie played on 5/12/2007 in NJ:
Two games from each match:
#1 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ
#2 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9FKDpSi_g
#1 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izndzXz_qdA
#2 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlflUSQ5ZaI (on HarTru clay)
#3 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b8pjKelb5A
Click to expand...

I am surprised by the #1 singles match. They barely had any rallies lasting more than 2 shots. It wasn't like one guy was hitting or serving hard either for winners or causing UEs. Are these benchmark players or just a regular 3.5 match?
 
M

maverick1

Semi-Pro
Where in NJ do you live?
Click to expand...
Mercer county

goober said:
I am surprised by the #1 singles match. They barely had any rallies lasting more than 2 shots. It wasn't like one guy was hitting or serving hard either for winners or causing UEs. Are these benchmark players or just a regular 3.5 match?
Click to expand...

The guy who was near the camera at the start just got bumped up to 3.5 after winning all his 3.0 matches last season. I would expect him to win somewhere between 25% and 75% of 3.5 matches, so I guess I consider him a benchmark 3.0. He won this match. The opponent was playing his first ever official USTA match.

Note that I didn't edit or select the footage in any way. For both 4.0 and 3.5, I have posted every second of video I shot. I don't know if the players were having a bad day or a bad couple of games or whatever. I am not in any of the videos, so I have no agenda.
 
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S

SteamWhipper

New User
M J

M J

Rookie
maverick1 said:
A 3.5 USTA league tie played on 5/12/2007 in NJ:
Two games from each match:
#1 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ
#2 singles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9FKDpSi_g
#1 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izndzXz_qdA
#2 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlflUSQ5ZaI (on HarTru clay)
#3 doubles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b8pjKelb5A
Click to expand...

You know what is really funny? Check out that shot that the guy in the near court calls out at 1:57 in the first video. He confidently points to a spot on the court and calls it "just long," even after the other guy questions it. Too bad the ball landed 3 or 4 inches inside the baseline.
 
waves2ya

waves2ya

Rookie
Mav - I'm in Essex County; granted low rez vid's make everyone look bad but, really, those guys don't look like 4.0's. Just too many errors, dropping first serves, choppy strokes.

Prolly makes you look like a genius ;-)

Great thread tho'. Gonna be quite something when S. Cali 4.0's or Atlanta 4.0's get posted up (hopefully). And - btw - that 7.0 link, good stuff; thks...
 
R

raiden031

Legend
SteamWhipper said:
Judging by these players I should be a 3.5 :confused:

Are these really 3.5 players?
Click to expand...

Looks can be deceiving. This definitely looks 3.5 to me. What I noticed playing against both 3.0 and 3.5 players is that there is not a whole lot of difference between them. I'd say a 3.5 player is more likely to have developed more advanced shots like a kick serve or topspin lobs and so forth. This is not always the case because there are alot of people who win at 3.5 simply because they are consistent, even though they lack various shots. So I'd say the difference is mainly consistency.

I am one of those players who probably serves better than most 3.5s, and I have developed a lot of different shots, but would lose most matches at that level because I hit too many errors, and make poor choices in shot selection.

I haven't seen much at the 4.0 level, but I can say that alot of 3.5 players who go against 4.0 players and tell me about it see 4.0 as a huge jump in skill level.
 
sinneTennis

sinneTennis

New User
the low 7.0 videos arent surprising, they of course look around that level.. but the 3.5-4.5 level videos.. you have got to be kidding me!?
 
Andres

Andres

G.O.A.T.
M J said:
You know what is really funny? Check out that shot that the guy in the near court calls out at 1:57 in the first video. He confidently points to a spot on the court and calls it "just long," even after the other guy questions it. Too bad the ball landed 3 or 4 inches inside the baseline.
Click to expand...
Yup, that was a terrible call !!
Thanks! I didn't notice it the first time I saw the video ;)
 
M

maverick1

Semi-Pro
There is definitely something about video that makes players look worse. I don't know what it is, but I still can't judge a player's quality accurately from video. A couple of times, posters here have asked to guess the rating of a player based on video, and I have been right thanks to my thumb rule of adding 1.5 to my judgment. At higher levels, I probably need to add 2.5. Just yesterday, I was reading a forehand article on TennisPlayer.net. The guy in the video seemed to have something odd in his stroke, and I thought the stroke didn't have the form of a good club player. Then I read that the player was Carlos Moya.

The 3.5 & 4.0 videos I posted in this video are about as authentic as you are ever going to see. These are official USTA league matches, and most of the players are typical for what they are playing.

In case some of you conclude that the standard of a given level in New Jersey must be inferior to that in Cali/Florida/Texas, here is something you can easily verify - the current national 3.5 runners-up are from central NJ. In fact they are one of the teams in my video. They lost 3 or 4 top players to promotion and are doing badly(1-2) now, but the point is there is strong 3.5 competition in NJ. One of the promoted players is the first player you see in the 4.0 #1 singles video.

I would agree that there is less tennis talent in NJ than in the other states I mentioned, but the effect of that is that there are no leagues above 4.5 in NJ(a fact), and a few 5.0+ players who want to play probably are sandbagging in 4.5, and there is probably a trickle-down effect that causes increased competition at 4.0 and 3.5
 
cam2

cam2

Rookie
M J said:
You know what is really funny? Check out that shot that the guy in the near court calls out at 1:57 in the first video. He confidently points to a spot on the court and calls it "just long," even after the other guy questions it. Too bad the ball landed 3 or 4 inches inside the baseline.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was laughing at that too. I've had people make calls like that on me and can't stand it.
 
cam2

cam2

Rookie
goober said:
I agree the videos don't look that great, but I assure you if you post video of yourself and you think you are 3.5 you will look like a 2.5-3.0.
Click to expand...

Especially since most people usually show highlights instead of full games.
 
SideSpinPDR

SideSpinPDR

New User
Andres Guazzelli said:
Yup, that was a terrible call !!
Thanks! I didn't notice it the first time I saw the video ;)
Click to expand...


I noticed that call too! Reminds me of calls one of my friends makes, and those are the calls that always **** me off. If you don't serve three feet inside the box or hit shots three feet from any line he'll call them out...needless to say I don't play games with him anymore, we just hit back and forth which is productive for me because he is better than I am...his calls are just terrible though.
 
M

Movement

New User
Are you serious?? I would think at the 3.5 level, players would own more consistancy. Technique/Pace/Spin are all hard to judge from a video with bad quality but you can't lie about consistancy. And from what I saw, depth are power was not very existant in thae #1 singles. Hardly 2-3 exchanges are made.... I just don't believe that's an accurate reflection of the 3.5 level unless that video showed the worst points in the match or something.

Shoot, I should start entering tournaments then.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Before you enter tournaments, put yourself on video and watch it. I guarantee you wont be happy with what you see.

J
 
M

Movement

New User
I've already done so a while back. I'll admit it wasn't great but not as ugly as what I just saw. I'm only talking about the 3.5 singles 1, videos don't do justice to how people play and like I said it's hard to judge pace, depth, and spin. But like I said, consistancy doesn't lie. That's why I wouldn't critique the 4.0 video because they can hit the ball in a few times back and I leave my other judgements out. Did you even watch the video? The guy in the white hat missed a bunch of serve returns.

I say it's not an accurate reflection of the general 3.5 level and I stick with it, consistancy should be there. And who are YOU to judge if anyone should enter tournaments? I'll enter any tournaments I want! I'm jk I'm not sore or anything but I stand by my comments.
 
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J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Movement said:
I've already done so a while back. I'll admit it wasn't great but not as ugly as what I just saw. I'm only talking about the 3.5 singles 1, videos don't do justice to how people play and like I said it's hard to judge pace, depth, and spin. But like I said, consistancy doesn't lie. That's why I wouldn't critique the 4.0 video because they can hit the ball in a few times back and I leave my other judgements out. Did you even watch the video? The guy in the white hat missed a bunch of serve returns.

I say it's not an accurate reflection of the general 3.5 level and I stick with it, consistancy should be there. And who are YOU to judge if anyone should enter tournaments? I'll enter any tournaments I want! I'm jk I'm not sore or anything but I stand by my comments.
Click to expand...

I readily admit that I totally can't tell how good someone is just by watching, heck, if they are in leaguesville I can't even tell by hitting with them. Lots of my lessons ask me what NTRP I think they are, or what they should do, and it is really tough for me to tell them, I usually give them a pretty broad range, explain how it varies from club to club, person to person, and tell them to try the lowest, and if they clean up, then move up.

Also, being consistant, doesn't really tell much either. Just watching other matches in Mens Open you see some matches where it is rare to see anything over 3-4 shot rallies, and others where the rallies are seemingly endless. I am talking about matches that have nothing to do with 3.5 or 4.0.

And missing serve returns? I mean, the higher up you get, the more returns you miss, I think anyhow. It would be interesting to see the % of service returns put into play by NTRP.

J
 
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