Do people complain about foreign players

[jcgatennismom]

@Nacho @gplracer @Ihatetennis
States like Texas and I think Georgia now give automatic acceptance to the state flagship universities to the validictorian and salutarian (sp?) of every public high school in the state who applies. Class vs race is a better predictor of success in college. Plus the courts approve these plans as constitutional since they are not race based. A student with two college educated parents, whether they be white, Asian, Hispanic or African American, has a much higher chance of success than a student of any race who graduated from a high school where the majority of students earn free lunches. By giving the opportunity to succeed to the best of the students who come from the poorest schools and the weakest economic backgrounds, colleges gain diversity without resorting to racial quotas. Those students, regardless of race, will probably need extra help because they may have weaker backgrounds. However, the fact that those students graduated at the top of their class show they have the work ethic to push through hardships. Most probably have SATs below average for those flagships, but again as another poster said, it is middle class and higher families that can afford SAT tutoring, and thus SATs are highly correlated to income levels.
I am always impressed when I read stories of refugees who came into the US with basically nothing, fleeing unsafe countries, maybe not even knowing English, but 3-4 years later they are at the top of their class and earning college scholarships. Whether it be athletics or academics, US students need to be hungrier to succeed. Watching Tiafoe go 5 sets with Fed last night, I wondered if his love for the game and his hunger to win was partly driven by the fact he is a son of refugees of Sierra Leone-the son of a maintenance work-nothing was just given to him by wealthy parents-he worked hard, was noticed, and then got free training. Maybe he has the best future of all the America Next Gen because he didnt come from an upper middle class background

 

[gplracer]

We have dived far away from the issue of Internationals in tennis..... @gplracer @Ihatetennis but I can't help but chime in one last time....

The only thing I think everyone should consider is that Minority groups, whether you agree with this line of thinking or not, want to see minority Doctors, lawyers, businessmen etc; especially those minority groups disenfranchised or who feel as if they need help from someone who understands them. They won't care that the Dr. may have gotten a little help to get in med school because they had a 3.5 GPA, versus a white candidate with a 3.8 GPA. Having a group of students that don't represent the population, doesn't help provide opportunities for patients/clients in the population and doesn't address the gamut of people we live with.

While I am all for being fair, and certainly want the best candidates to have the opportunities, I also realize that the best candidates are ones who are willing to go back out and serve their communities, and this may not be the ones with the highest GPA's. I applaud schools that would provide this opportunity, call it a quota, or call it unfair. If they didn't, there might be no one to serve a segment of the population and that would be a bigger failure of the system. A 4.0 white Medical school candidate is less likely to go out and set up practice in a minority neighborhood as a 3.5 minority candidate would.

What do you say to the white person with better qualifications? Sorry whitey? Can you guarantee the minority will work in a minority neighborhood? While I understand your rationale you are doing it at the expense of someone. You rationale picks people based on race because you think the community needs them. You think that is a fair system to the applicants?

Back to the original question of foreigners on college tennis. Let's say we accept your rationale. I would argue we should pick Americans because they are more likely to give back to the community here and stay in the U.S.

 

[Nacho]

What do you say to the white person with better qualifications? Sorry whitey? Can you guarantee the minority will work in a minority neighborhood? While I understand your rationale you are doing it at the expense of someone. You rationale picks people based on race because you think the community needs them. You think that is a fair system to the applicants?

Back to the original question of foreigners on college tennis. Let's say we accept your rationale. I would argue we should pick Americans because they are more likely to give back to the community here and stay in the U.S.

Again, just giving you a different perspective of what is a complicated subject. I sense though you have some respect that Minorities would rather have access to Minority administrators, and I likewise understand your point that it should be a fair system. I think there is a middle somewhere, but alas if it will ever be found.

As I have told you, my feeling on Foreigners in College tennis is that it is symptomatic of a bigger problem: A poor American Jr. system that doesn't allow free development of players and accessible competition to improve. College and Pro tennis is unattainable for American kids, relative to their counterparts. Lots of Jr's play here in the US, not many make it. We are 10 times the population of France, but France has 10 times the top 100 pro players...think about it

However, if you argue you should pick Americans, you are essentially creating an American version of title 9? I have lots of feelings on this and would love to go back and forth on it....different day, different thread. In the end, we are talking about sports, not brain surgery.

And, lets say you take the approach of the best players, which lets all the foreigners have at college tennis. Well, to use the medical example so often referenced: all the Dr's in a few years will be mostly Asian. So, without any "whitey" Dr's you better learn some Chinese or Korean to see a Dr. because those students are far surpassing White American students.

Pick your poison

 

[gplracer]

Again, just giving you a different perspective of what is a complicated subject. I sense though you have some respect that Minorities would rather have access to Minority administrators, and I likewise understand your point that it should be a fair system. I think there is a middle somewhere, but alas if it will ever be found.

As I have told you, my feeling on Foreigners in College tennis is that it is symptomatic of a bigger problem: A poor American Jr. system that doesn't allow free development of players and accessible competition to improve. College and Pro tennis is unattainable for American kids, relative to their counterparts. Lots of Jr's play here in the US, not many make it. We are 10 times the population of France, but France has 10 times the top 100 pro players...think about it

However, if you argue you should pick Americans, you are essentially creating an American version of title 9? I have lots of feelings on this and would love to go back and forth on it....different day, different thread. In the end, we are talking about sports, not brain surgery.

And, lets say you take the approach of the best players, which lets all the foreigners have at college tennis. Well, to use the medical example so often referenced: all the Dr's in a few years will be mostly Asian. So, without any "whitey" Dr's you better learn some Chinese or Korean to see a Dr. because those students are far surpassing White American students.

Pick your poison

it is a complex issue. I think most of us have opinions that run close to home. My older son is an engineering major and my younger son wants to play college tennis. So this is a hot topic for me. We all want the best for our family. I do want fairness for minorities and for my kids as well. My son has been to RTCs and the USTA paid for that not because he was a minority but because they did it for all the players. We are spending all the money we can afford for his tennis. Although I could benefit from some USTA grants if my son was a minority. To me that just does not seem right. It makes me sensitive to all of this.

 

[Nacho]

@Nacho @gplracer @Ihatetennis
States like Texas and I think Georgia now give automatic acceptance to the state flagship universities to the validictorian and salutarian (sp?) of every public high school in the state who applies. Class vs race is a better predictor of success in college. Plus the courts approve these plans as constitutional since they are not race based. A student with two college educated parents, whether they be white, Asian, Hispanic or African American, has a much higher chance of success than a student of any race who graduated from a high school where the majority of students earn free lunches. By giving the opportunity to succeed to the best of the students who come from the poorest schools and the weakest economic backgrounds, colleges gain diversity without resorting to racial quotas. Those students, regardless of race, will probably need extra help because they may have weaker backgrounds. However, the fact that those students graduated at the top of their class show they have the work ethic to push through hardships. Most probably have SATs below average for those flagships, but again as another poster said, it is middle class and higher families that can afford SAT tutoring, and thus SATs are highly correlated to income levels.
I am always impressed when I read stories of refugees who came into the US with basically nothing, fleeing unsafe countries, maybe not even knowing English, but 3-4 years later they are at the top of their class and earning college scholarships. Whether it be athletics or academies, US students need to be hungrier to succeed. Watching Tiafoe go 5 sets with Fed last night, I wondered if his love for the game and his hunger to win was partly driven by the fact he is a son of refugees of Sierra Leone-the son of a maintenance work-nothing was just given to him by wealthy parents-he worked hard, was noticed, and then got free training. Maybe he has the best future of all the America Next Gen because he didnt come from an upper middle class background

I actually don't subscribe to the "hunger" theory, which is put forth by a lot of people across the spectrum of sports. Jurgan Klinsmann used to suggest this with soccer players saying the most successful ones were from poorer backgrounds and thus were hungrier. Its an interesting topic, and Tiafoe's story is certainly inspiring, but I think a little differently about his success.

Tiafoe was not the project of the USTA. He had strong mentorships and coaching, free from the Green/Orange/Red ball formula mandated and certified by the USTA. He was able to develop separately, not required to play a certain way and his game his not the standard cookie cutter approach of most American Jr's. His Fire comes from competing in the environment he grew up in, and working hard was part of the deal. Is it because he came from a disenfranchised situation? Certainly it contributed. But I would argue the opportunity of allowing coaches the freedom to coach to coach him on his needs, mentorship from other adult players, and the drive to compete all have made him successful. Its not a cookie cutter formula as has been dictated through the USTA for the last 25 years. Tiafoe's situation saved him from having to go through that, same with Escobedo, and truly Kozlov, Harrison and Fritz to some degree....they all show success is not a recipe in one kitchen, but is born out different things. Much of it pushed through their parents who understand tennis and tennis success.

Definitely was exciting to see Tiafoe compete so heroically last night

 

[gplracer]

Federer is my favorite but Tiafoe played s great match. It just was not his time.

 

[mctennis]

I have not read any of these replies to this question. I will give my opinion and will not respond to anyone's reply to my answer. Not interested if you disagree with why I feel the way I do.
Foreign students coming into our country , taking scholarships , occupying seats in a classroom , using taxpayers money, is WRONG. So many say " those scholarships are a separate fund", doesn't matter sooner or later they dip into taxpayer money for a non American to get money and eventually take a slot an American student should have. They also get a degree , perhaps, and then go back to their own country or even take a job position an American could take. Overstaying their visa's and not being sent back to their own country. They are here to play a sport, big deal. They should stay in their own country and play sports over there. If we want to be diversified in college do that Study Abroad program or take a year off away from college and have your child roam around in another country. Like that is a safe thing to do these days. These colleges keep pushing this "study abroad" issue over and over again as your child visits the college. It has to be a money maker for the college to do this or they would not keep pushing it to every child when they come in. They have speakers standing in front of audiences of parents and potential students and preach this " Study Abroad" yet they bring foreign students over by the droves to fill classrooms instead of American students.
Long answer to a short question but it takes a longer answer to explain why I feel the way I do.

 

[ccs]

This is a funny board. Skip the top teams where there might be a chance to go pro. Go watch a lower level match with only international players. See the excitement of the 10 or 20 fans watching (including players and coaches). When it is time to make athletic cuts which sport would you guess is going to be first?

 

[NoChance]

ccs is right on the money. Been there, I've seen it myself. I can think of a number of teams that could go south in a heartbeat, if their university sees the need to tighten its belt. And, that is happening at more schools (mid-major and below) than you imagine.

 

[travelbuddha]

Long time lurker, who finally signed up.

I was around D1 tennis in the early 2000's as a team manager. Prior to the 2004-2005 season, foreign players were a lot more controversial. The NCAA has different rules for different sports when it comes to age eligibility. Tennis's rules stated that you had 5 years to play 4 years of college tennis from the time you matriculated. For US based players, this was from when you graduated high school. In Germany, you had to do 2 years of national service after finishing high school before you started college. If you were a very good tennis player, you did your national service by playing on the tour. Your NCAA clock didn't start to run, because you were technically doing national service, but you were getting tour experience. Other European countries had similar setups. The net result was there were a bunch of 20 year old freshmen in NCAA tennis who had 2 years of tour experience under their belt. Things came to a head with the 2004 Baylor team, who fielded a team entirely comprised of foreign students, including 3 Germans, who played 1, 2 and 4. They cruised to a national championship and the NCAA altered the rules for tennis that summer, so you don't have the national service loophole. You have had much fewer instances of the "foreign ringers" since then.

As far as funding goes, it is an issue, but it's not just about funding but also Title IX, which is about equality between mens and womens college sports. There are two ways to comply: equal number of sports for men and women, or equal number of scholarships. At schools with a football program, they tend to go by number of sports, because football takes up so many scholarships. Schools that have football programs are not short of cash, and the overflow funds all the other sports. At schools without football, funding is much more of an issue. I'd say that if a school doesn't have both mens and womens tennis, the one team is far more at risk than if there were two. They share a facility, have equal numbers of scholarships and generally offset each other for Title IX purposes. To cut one would make the remaining one more expensive to operate. That tends to mean that cutting tennis entirely becomes a way to cut a lot of costs in a hurry without unbalancing things in the rest of the athletic dept from a Title IX standpoint.

 

[ClarkC]

Title IX compliance is a little more complicated than you laid out, and men's tennis and women's tennis do not have the same number of scholarships. In Division I, the men have 4.5 (equivalency sport) and the women have 8 (head count sport).

 

[gplracer]

Title IX compliance is a little more complicated than you laid out, and men's tennis and women's tennis do not have the same number of scholarships. In Division I, the men have 4.5 (equivalency sport) and the women have 8 (head count sport).

It is ridiculous!

 

[tennisjunky]

Lots of good points but I believe most if not all are secondary issues and not the direct root cause.
I'll give some serious advice that has taken me many years to understand and really grasp.

The older I get the more I understand that so all these issues are actually very EASY to understand and to correct.
HOWEVER, whats difficult is seeing through all the: BS, dis-information and as always the big elephant in the room.... POLITICS.

First
Tennis (for the most part) doesn't and NEVER NEVER NEVER will make money..... PERIOD, END OF CASE FOREVER!

Second
Companies use this phrase often and ALL universities are FOR PROFIT companies (no matter what their official designation).
What "value" does tennis bring to the university?
There is really only 1 thing that brings real tangible value to having a tennis program. Marketing of the university brand with the intention of attract paying customers (new students).
Everything else is a waste of time, money and resources!!

Third
The US is a big country, and not all areas are diverse and unfortunately, many schools use the tennis team as a weak way to prop up their diversity so they can show their fake openness and inclusiveness. I have seen this personally on several occasions. Everyone knows where universities stand on diversity and openness. This happens often, and every once in a while you'll catch a coach or athletic director, not mention this directly, but you can see what they are getting at. They'll talk about how they are excited about have players with many nationalities and languages.... blah blah blah.... fake fake fake. Actually, this is an old trick companies use to bump affirmative action numbers. Example, I'm actually employed with a minority owned company...... 79% minority, WOW, right! In reality, that actually means 79% are actually from Brazil and Portugal and they are whiter, speak better English, and are better educated than I am.... and they are all minorities and they market it frequently to gain new customers. Sound familiar?

These issues also explain why its VERY EASY to cut the tennis program. As soon as the REAL VALUE is gone.... why continue to support a program that isn't supporting what the university wants, which is to channel money to programs that support their Core Values. If they need girl sports, they are going to invent heavily in: soccer, baseball, basketball, lacrosse. Tennis just doesn't have the numbers. Wait till the universities start importing soccer and basketball. I hear girls soccer is big overseas. That's a joke, but it will happen.

Sadly, I am now firmly in the camp of removing all tennis from the university system, this unfortunately is the only thing I can see that will alleviate this DEVASTATING problem!

 

[gplracer]

Lots of good points but I believe most if not all are secondary issues and not the direct root cause.
I'll give some serious advice that has taken me many years to understand and really grasp.

The older I get the more I understand that so all these issues are actually very EASY to understand and to correct.
HOWEVER, whats difficult is seeing through all the: BS, dis-information and as always the big elephant in the room.... POLITICS.

First
Tennis (for the most part) doesn't and NEVER NEVER NEVER will make money..... PERIOD, END OF CASE FOREVER!

Second
Companies use this phrase often and ALL universities are FOR PROFIT companies (no matter what their official designation).
What "value" does tennis bring to the university?
There is really only 1 thing that brings real tangible value to having a tennis program. Marketing of the university brand with the intention of attract paying customers (new students).
Everything else is a waste of time, money and resources!!

Third
The US is a big country, and not all areas are diverse and unfortunately, many schools use the tennis team as a weak way to prop up their diversity so they can show their fake openness and inclusiveness. I have seen this personally on several occasions. Everyone knows where universities stand on diversity and openness. This happens often, and every once in a while you'll catch a coach or athletic director, not mention this directly, but you can see what they are getting at. They'll talk about how they are excited about have players with many nationalities and languages.... blah blah blah.... fake fake fake. Actually, this is an old trick companies use to bump affirmative action numbers. Example, I'm actually employed with a minority owned company...... 79% minority, WOW, right! In reality, that actually means 79% are actually from Brazil and Portugal and they are whiter, speak better English, and are better educated than I am.... and they are all minorities and they market it frequently to gain new customers. Sound familiar?

These issues also explain why its VERY EASY to cut the tennis program. As soon as the REAL VALUE is gone.... why continue to support a program that isn't supporting what the university wants, which is to channel money to programs that support their Core Values. If they need girl sports, they are going to invent heavily in: soccer, baseball, basketball, lacrosse. Tennis just doesn't have the numbers. Wait till the universities start importing soccer and basketball. I hear girls soccer is big overseas. That's a joke, but it will happen.

Sadly, I am now firmly in the camp of removing all tennis from the university system, this unfortunately is the only thing I can see that will alleviate this DEVASTATING problem!

Uh.... ok.... You might as well cut golf, swimming and every other sport except football. They all make no money. Basketball maybe makes money if you are a big division one school.

 

[JW10S]

Uh.... ok.... You might as well cut golf, swimming and every other sport except football. They all make no money. Basketball maybe makes money if you are a big division one school.

Many D1 football programs lose money too.

 

[goatbis]

People who don't understand tennis complain.

 

[Spanglish72]

I see where you're coming from, but if the level of talent isn't there for teams to excel with American players, then it isn't worth putting the money towards them. Tennis already struggles to bring in spectators so they might as well bring in the best players possible, regardless of where they're from.

If college tennis doesn't bring in spectators to watch, regardless if the team is winning or losing, or if it's foreign or American kids....then just recruite American kids!

Who cares if the tennis team wins or loses. No one is paying attention anyway. I'd rather see a homegrown kid get a free education than some foreigner.

 

[andfor]

If college tennis doesn't bring in spectators to watch, regardless if the team is winning or losing, or if it's foreign or American kids....then just recruite American kids!

Who cares if the tennis team wins or loses. No one is paying attention anyway. I'd rather see a homegrown kid get a free education than some foreigner.

Respectfully regardless of how you feel, coaches, AD's, college presidents, players and those who attend the matches would disagree.

 

[mctennis]

If college tennis doesn't bring in spectators to watch, regardless if the team is winning or losing, or if it's foreign or American kids....then just recruite American kids!

Who cares if the tennis team wins or loses. No one is paying attention anyway. I'd rather see a homegrown kid get a free education than some foreigner.

I agree with you 100%. If these foreign students are so good at tennis let then go to college in their respective country. Keep the money here and give it to a homegrown kid. Exactly right!!

 

[dominikk1985]

I think it is depending on where are the foreign players from. There are players from poorer countries who see this as a chance for free education.

Western european players who go to the usa usually are from very wealthy families though and see this more as a great experience plus playing some good tennis, they could study essentially for free (you still need to eat and sleep somewhere of course) but they want an international experience for their CV and language skills.

 

[Doubles]

If college tennis doesn't bring in spectators to watch, regardless if the team is winning or losing, or if it's foreign or American kids....then just recruite American kids!

Who cares if the tennis team wins or loses. No one is paying attention anyway. I'd rather see a homegrown kid get a free education than some foreigner.

Coaches want to win. They recruit the players that will best help them win.

 

[silentkman]

Respectfully regardless of how you feel, coaches, AD's, college presidents, players and those who attend the matches would disagree.

Cmon most AD's or college presidents don't care about tennis. Why should they care are about a sport that makes no money? A fair number of schools don't have any players from the United States. A number of HBCU's don't have black players.

 

[andfor]

Cmon most AD's or college presidents don't care about tennis. Why should they are about a sport that makes no money? A fair number of schools don't have any players from the United States. A number of HBCU's don't have black players.

Not most, some yes. It's an image and marketing check box when they do well. It may be small but all the positives the school can gather count when promoting the school.

 

[Spanglish72]

Coaches want to win. They recruit the players that will best help them win.

That means they aren't REAL coaches. A real coach would recruit based on potential & coach the kids up when they arrive on campus. Not recruit some foreign kid who crashed out of low level euro futures.

Every PUBLIC college tennis team should have a 1 foreign player quota. Everyone else on the team should be an American citizen

"BUILD THE WALL!" around US public college tennis & let the foreign players attend private US universities.

Our country is $19 trillion dollars in debt & college tuition at all time record highs & yet US tax payers are funding foreign tennis players college degrees SMH.

 

[J011yroger]

That means they aren't REAL coaches. A real coach would recruit based on potential & coach the kids up when they arrive on campus. Not recruit some foreign kid who crashed out of the low level euro futures tour.

Every public college tennis team should have a 1 foreign player quota. Everyone one else should be an American citizen

"BUILD THE WALL!" around US rcollege tennis & let the foreign players attend private universities.

Yes! And don't have matches either, they can just rally up the middle, practice their volleys a bit, have some Gatorade and go study.

Trophies for everyone!

If they must play matches we will find some 3.5s for them to beat.

J

 

[ChrisG]

Tou

Yes! And don't have matches either, they can just rally up the middle, practice their volleys a bit, have some Gatorade and go study.

Trophies for everyone!

If they must play matches we will find some 3.5s for them to beat.

J

you’re right, since we all know now that 3.5 players hit the ball as ATP pros

 

[J011yroger]

Tou

you’re right, since we all know now that 3.5 players hit the ball as ATP pros

Well I mean if Americans aren't good enough to play college tennis then we need to lower the bar.

While we are at it, I would like to throw all these foreigners out of the NYC marathon. If you weren't born inside the city limits, you are out.

J

 

[Doubles]

That means they aren't REAL coaches. A real coach would recruit based on potential & coach the kids up when they arrive on campus. Not recruit some foreign kid who crashed out of the low level euro futures tour.

Every public college tennis team should have a 1 foreign player quota. Everyone one else should be an American citizen

"BUILD THE WALL!" around US rcollege tennis & let the foreign players attend private universities.

Cringe/10

 

[andfor]

Well I mean if Americans aren't good enough to play college tennis then we need to lower the bar.

While we are at it, I would like to throw all these foreigners out of the NYC marathon. If you weren't born inside the city limits, you are out.

J

There's percentage of tennis parent or fan that thinks that foreigners are the reason their kid or they can't play at a Power5 school or for that matter any college of their choice. Then complain that mid-major DI's, DII, DIII and NAIA programs that would love to have American kids show interest to play aren't good enough schools. It's just laughable.

 

[J011yroger]

There's percentage of tennis parent or fan that thinks that foreigners are the reason their kid or they can't play at a Power5 school or for that matter any college of their choice. Then complain that mid-major DI's, DII, DIII and NAIA programs that would love to have American kids show interest to play aren't good enough schools. It's just laughable.

It's basically the same as league players complaining about sandbaggers.

J

 

[ChrisG]

I think it is depending on where are the foreign players from. There are players from poorer countries who see this as a chance for free education.

Western european players who go to the usa usually are from very wealthy families though and see this more as a great experience plus playing some good tennis, they could study essentially for free (you still need to eat and sleep somewhere of course) but they want an international experience for their CV and language skills.

Two friends of mine are a good exemple of that. One from France (where I live) and one from Bolivia. They we’re not seeking a career in tennis but just a good opportunity to study abroad and play tennis

 

[mctennis]

Two friends of mine are a good exemple of that. One from France (where I live) and one from Bolivia. They we’re not seeking a career in tennis but just a good opportunity to study abroad and play tennis

Why couldn't they stay in their own country and get an education in one of their own county's colleges? And play tennis on that college's tennis team for a scholarship? Why do they have to to another country to play tennis? This going to another country to get the flovor of another country is BS to me. The colleges here in the states push the hell out of thjis theory. It is nothing but a money maker for the college to not have so many students in their classrooms and be a heck of a lot cheaper to have them in another country taking classes. Just my thoughts on this.

 

[ClarkC]

Why couldn't they stay in their own country and get an education in one of their own county's colleges? And play tennis on that college's tennis team for a scholarship? Why do they have to to another country to play tennis? This going to another country to get the flovor of another country is BS to me. The colleges here in the states push the hell out of thjis theory. It is nothing but a money maker for the college to not have so many students in their classrooms and be a heck of a lot cheaper to have them in another country taking classes. Just my thoughts on this.

Not sure if you are serious, but other countries don't have athletic scholarships for college.

 

[mctennis]

Not sure if you are serious, but other countries don't have athletic scholarships for college.

Then I guess they should try another sport that they can get a sports scholarship or academic scholarship in their own country. I am serious. I am tired of spending my tax dollars on giving scholarships to foreign students when they should be giving those scholarships to US students.
Sorry if this upsets people.

 

[silentkman]

Then I guess they should try another sport that they can get a sports scholarship or academic scholarship in their own country. I am serious. I am tired of spending my tax dollars on giving scholarships to foreign students when they should be giving those scholarships to US students.
Sorry if this upsets people.

Colleges just want to win. Kinda ironic that a sport that generates no revenue tries to win at all costs with majority foreign players.

 

[mctennis]

Colleges just want to win. Kinda ironic that a sport that generates no revenue tries to win at all costs with majority foreign players.

They are still using school scholarship money for that. All coaches want to win. If they do not they probably would lose their coaching job.

 

[SVP]

Well I mean if Americans aren't good enough to play college tennis then we need to lower the bar.

While we are at it, I would like to throw all these foreigners out of the NYC marathon. If you weren't born inside the city limits, you are out.

J

Build the wall! And lock her up while you’re at it.

 

[rafazx10]

I feel divided on this matter.
But providing scholarships to foreigners is a net gain for the nation IMO, most campuses if you walk into a STEM or Medical classroom you will see a ton of foreigners, and the ones which stay contribute more to society than what they "received" with scholarships.

*IMO americans have better than average opportunity to be great players, if they lost scholarships to someone outside of the country is because the other guy has more talent or worked harder.

 

[JeffG]

That tennis is such an international sport is one of its better qualities and a part of what first attracted me to it as a kid. It’s not a U.S. created or U.S. centered sport. Its heritage and heart are European but eventually spread to the now former colonies, including the U.S.. I love that when I attend higher level matches and tournaments (college or professional), I get to see and sometimes meet players and fans from around the world.

If someone really isn’t on board with that, I’m not sure how they landed on tennis as a favorite in the first place. Maybe American Football might be a better option as we invented it and the rest of the world seems pretty content to let us have it mostly to ourselves. Tennis was never “ours” to begin with (nor is our university model for that matter), so it seems odd to **** foreign players for playing a foreign sport at an institution copied from a foreign model.

 

[Deacon Drive]

That tennis is such an international sport is one of its better qualities and a part of what first attracted me to it as a kid. It’s not a U.S. created or U.S. centered sport. Its heritage and heart are European but eventually spread to the now former colonies, including the U.S.. I love that when I attend higher level matches and tournaments (college or professional), I get to see and sometimes meet players and fans from around the world.

If someone really isn’t on board with that, I’m not sure how they landed on tennis as a favorite in the first place. Maybe American Football might be a better option as we invented it and the rest of the world seems pretty content to let us have it mostly to ourselves. Tennis was never “ours” to begin with (nor is our university model for that matter), so it seems odd to **** foreign players for playing a foreign sport at an institution copied from a foreign model.

This is a really good post.

 

[silentkman]

That tennis is such an international sport is one of its better qualities and a part of what first attracted me to it as a kid. It’s not a U.S. created or U.S. centered sport. Its heritage and heart are European but eventually spread to the now former colonies, including the U.S.. I love that when I attend higher level matches and tournaments (college or professional), I get to see and sometimes meet players and fans from around the world.

If someone really isn’t on board with that, I’m not sure how they landed on tennis as a favorite in the first place. Maybe American Football might be a better option as we invented it and the rest of the world seems pretty content to let us have it mostly to ourselves. Tennis was never “ours” to begin with (nor is our university model for that matter), so it seems odd to **** foreign players for playing a foreign sport at an institution copied from a foreign model.

its possible to love American Football and Tennis. You can't compare ATP and WTA tournaments to college tennis. its may be the only college sport that is dominated by foreigners. I appreciate that tennis is a global sport, that's the beauty of pro tennis.

 

[jcgatennismom]

To the parents who complain about foreign players, realize the negative message you are giving to your sons and daughters-that they arent as good as international players. Better watch out as it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. To win in tennis requires confidence and belief in self as well as good strokes, endurance, strategy, etc. The truth is there are great, average and mediocre US and international players. There are international male players at US colleges with mid 8 UTRs as well as those with 14+ UTRs and ATP points. It is true that 60%+ of international players for D1 and D2 are internationals but part of the explanation is that US players are only interested in playing at certain schools-often the flagship universities in their states. If players looked beyond the 60ish Power 5 schools and the 8 Ivy League schools (there are 250ish D1 schools plus D2,NAIA, and hundreds of d3 with tennis), they should find options that are good fits for academics and tennis level. Even now there are still some coaches looking for male and female players for this spring. Now academics should be top or at least equal priority with tennis, and US players need to choose colleges where graduates usually find decent jobs in their major without incurring overwhelming debt. If they have good grades and test scores, hopefully those options will be affordable too-many boys may receive more merit aid than athletic with only 4.5 max scholarships per team especially considering D3 with no athletic aid has the most colleges with teams, and many D1 and D2 are not fully funded-they may only have 2 out of the 4.5 scholarships funded. Very few players receive the elusive "free ride."

Your tax dollars are not funding the international players. Student fees at universities (some top $1500+ over tuition) cover athletics, the student rec center, student services, etc. The football team losing $ at most colleges is taking a much larger bite of those fees than tennis. The facilities are often funded by donors; sometimes the scholarships are funded by donors too. Now if you are paying tuition/fees for an older sibling at your state sibling, maybe you are subsidizing foreign tennis players $30/yr-go watch a few games with your player, and you'll get your $'s worth with the entertainment and in seeing how college play is different than juniors.

I used to be one of those quota parents back when my son was HS soph. Then I hosted an senior international player in my home for 3 weeks between Jr ITFs, and I saw how hard he worked at recruiting and playing, his maturity for his age, etc. Also my son had the opportunity to hit with/play against international juniors locally and realized his win/loss ratio was no different between US and international players. I do think tennis needs to be cheaper; I think US parents are angry after they spend 10s of thousands of $ only to find out they are not good enough for a Power 5 school. Spend less $, skip USTA, call a local university tennis coach and see if your child can pay to hit with college players in the fall or summer (if they hang around), play UTR events, men's prize $, HS tennis, ITA summer circuit-some of these events may have entry fees half the cost of USTA events. Arrange your own matchplay and attend academy fewer days a week for drills. Where my son trained one fall, the academy director paid local international university tennis players-at least one of which had earned ATP points- $20/hr to hit with juniors a couple days a week.

You definitely don't want to set your children up to be intimidated if they have to play a foreign player. Instead play fewer tourneys but make sure they are prepared for every one. There are plenty of international juniors already in US-let them get experience playing them now-dont wait until college. Take the family to Florida and one parent can take your junior to UTR event there while taking rest to beach or Disney. Starting in 2021, any USTA player can play in any section so players can also play level 6 and 7 FL USTA tourneys. However, if you look hard enough, you can probably find international players to play in your own backyard -either current players or recent graduates maybe hanging around to play Futures or coach. Having international players on tennis teams increases the geographical diversity of colleges. Some colleges are 95% in-state students, and it's mostly athletes from out-of state and international that make up the other 5% and make life more interesting for the 95%. While tennis has the largest proportion of internationals, hockey, soccer, swimming, basketball, track and field, golf, etc also have international athletes.

Your players' tennis and life experiences will be enriched by their interactions with international players-whether it be teammates, opponents, hitting partners, etc. My son traveled 7 hours to a tournament this summer with a recent international college graduate who he had met as a hitting partner. My son has enjoyed following the guy's twitter as he tries out the Futures tour across the globe.

US players unfortunately come from a participation culture, meaning they think they should be able to participate in any sport they want which may be fine for U10/U12 and under sports. However, once kids get in high school, to play high level in any sports, it may mean the player only has time for school and sport and fewer social events than their peers. If a player is playing tournaments every other weekend and then catching up on school projects the other weekends, they will miss a lot of football games. I see too many US juniors with UTRs under 10 who dont really have a development plan for getting better; they attend academy but dont get enough matchplay or tournament experience and somehow think they will play D1. Some coaches may take them on as walk-ons because they have good grades that might help team GPA (though usually tennis players have high grades anyway) but it is doubtful they would ever play. US players find academy coaches that will be honest and not just take your $, find your player's college UTR fit, and have realistic expectations. There are players who play D1 who only played HS tennis and summer non-USTA tournaments, who were coached by parents and spent a lot less $ than many guys sitting on benches.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Your tax dollars are not funding the international players.

This comment really irks me. How do you know that tax dollars at public universities do not fund international players? Everyone attends the university, in one form or another, gets subsidized by tax payers money. It is wishful to think otherwise.

Student fees at universities (some top $1500+ over tuition) cover athletics, the student rec center, student services, etc. The football team losing $ at most colleges is taking a much larger bite of those fees than tennis. The facilities are often funded by donors; sometimes the scholarships are funded by donors too. Now if you are paying tuition/fees for an older sibling at your state sibling, maybe you are subsidizing foreign tennis players $30/yr-go watch a few games with your player, and you'll get your $'s worth with the entertainment and in seeing how college play is different than juniors.

Tell this to people that have to work full time and have to pay students fee for this. They don't even have time for these activities because they have to work in order to make tuition payment and students fee so that the university can squander that money for international players. Just because tennis program take a smaller bite at student fee does not make it right. This is such typical elitist view.

I really don't care if the universities want to recruit international players for their programs as long as it uses private donation and tax payers money are not being used to fund this. ALL resources use at the PUBLIC universities by foreigners must be paid through private donnors.

 

[bobleenov1963]

This is listed on Virginia Tech website:

Athletic Fee: The Athletic Fee supports athletic program operations and sponsors intercollegiate non-revenue generating varsity sports.This fee entitles students to admissions into sporting events, while recognizing that student seating is limited thus not guaranteed.Large blocks of seats are reserved for students in major venues (about 25 percent in Lane Stadium and 35percentin Cassell Coliseum).

In other words, the university takes hard earned money from working students to subsidize foreign players.

 

[JeffG]

In other words, the university takes hard earned money from working students to subsidize foreign players.

No, the university takes hard earned money from working students to subsidize all the players.

 

[jcgatennismom]

@JeffG @bobleenov1963 In light of the college debt crisis, I wonder if the entire scope of college sports will come under review. Currently, students or grads with debt may hope that one of the Democratic candidates who offers some level of debt forgiveness will be elected. However, I doubt those who did not attend college or who graduated and paid off their own debt are willing to pay more taxes for those who took on too much debt and majored in areas where their projected future income makes it hard to pay off that debt. If wholesale debt forgiveness is taken off the table, students and parents are going to ask why education inflation is so much higher than general inflation, and the escalation of sports expense is part of the reason though a lot of it is for the salaries for football and basketball coaches. It could be that the sports that survive will be those with donor support or those with lower costs (tennis falls in this group). Those fees are not just for athletics; fees go for creating country club like facilities to attract students who can pay most of their way while those fees are an extra unneeded and unfair burden for students who work while going to college. LSU built a lazy floating swimming pool in the shape of the college initials as part of a $85million rec complex: https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_r...cle_d493697a-e40e-11e7-978d-eb7f43e822bf.html Player subsidies whether foreign or US are a small piece of the exponential growth in tuition and student fees. Colleges need to consolidate, maybe turn the unprofitable ones into affordable housing and community colleges, and possibly college loans should mainly go to upperclassmen at 4 year colleges with smaller loans for underclassmen to attend community colleges first. Future college students may say cut all sports but football and basketball with a few girls' sports to balance Title IX, sell off the expensive rec centers, cut all the fluff, and just bring in a couple good concerts a year... Too bad current high schools often require 4 years of math but that math does not include budgeting personal finances...

 

[JeffG]

@JeffG @bobleenov1963 In light of the college debt crisis, I wonder if the entire scope of college sports will come under review. Currently, students or grads with debt may hope that one of the Democratic candidates who offers some level of debt forgiveness will be elected. However, I doubt those who did not attend college or who graduated and paid off their own debt are willing to pay more taxes for those who took on too much debt and majored in areas where their projected future income makes it hard to pay off that debt. If wholesale debt forgiveness is taken off the table, students and parents are going to ask why education inflation is so much higher than general inflation, and the escalation of sports expense is part of the reason though a lot of it is for the salaries for football and basketball coaches. It could be that the sports that survive will be those with donor support or those with lower costs (tennis falls in this group). Those fees are not just for athletics; fees go for creating country club like facilities to attract students who can pay most of their way while those fees are an extra unneeded and unfair burden for students who work while going to college. LSU built a lazy floating swimming pool in the shape of the college initials as part of a $85million rec complex: https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_r...cle_d493697a-e40e-11e7-978d-eb7f43e822bf.html Player subsidies whether foreign or US are a small piece of the exponential growth in tuition and student fees. Colleges need to consolidate, maybe turn the unprofitable ones into affordable housing and community colleges, and possibly college loans should mainly go to upperclassmen at 4 year colleges with smaller loans for underclassmen to attend community colleges first. Future college students may say cut all sports but football and basketball with a few girls' sports to balance Title IX, sell off the expensive rec centers, cut all the fluff, and just bring in a couple good concerts a year... Too bad current high schools often require 4 years of math but that math does not include budgeting personal finances...

As someone who worked at two different universities over a period of ten years - one public, one private - I’m very aware of the administratively heavy, amenities-athletics wars and the negative impacts. Considering the overall scope of it, the idea that foreign tennis players are somehow robbing us is pretty silly, not to mention the very real value international students add to a collegiate experience. I also agree we’ll necessarily see much more scrutiny, though I’m not convinced it will happen soon enough or in an educationally productive way. I very much hope that process includes a move toward more tuition-free options and debt relief, but we’ll see.

We’re the only country that has so significantly changed its university system into a massive pay-to-play enterprise. Ironically per this thread, more and more U.S. students are looking at other countries for their undergraduate degrees (and might well decide to stay after graduation). Even if they have to pay tuition and fees unlike or at a higher rate than native born students, it’s still often substantially less expensive abroad than attending college in the U.S., both because other countries take tuition-free and/or much more affordable education seriously and they’ve avoided a lot of amenities and athletics altogether helping to keep costs lower. Small businesses are currently growing up around helping U.S. students find good university matches in other countries.

 

[bobleenov1963]

I very much hope that process includes a move toward more tuition-free options and debt relief, but we’ll see.

There is no such thing as "free". Someone will be paying for it.

We’re the only country that has so significantly changed its university system into a massive pay-to-play enterprise. Ironically per this thread, more and more U.S. students are looking at other countries for their undergraduate degrees (and might well decide to stay after graduation). Even if they have to pay tuition and fees unlike or at a higher rate than native born students, it’s still often substantially less expensive abroad than attending college in the U.S., both because other countries take tuition-free and/or much more affordable education seriously and they’ve avoided a lot of amenities and athletics altogether helping to keep costs lower. Small businesses are currently growing up around helping U.S. students find good university matches in other countries.

I don't know what you're talking about but there are so many people coming to the US as H1B visa for IT work. Universities in the US are still the best in t he world. I live in the DMV area and I don't know of anyone going abroad for their undergraduate degree. Actually I know one kid in my neighborhood leaving the neighborhood to attend Oxford in the UK. In-state tuition is still affordable. In Virginia, there is General Admission Aggrement (GAA) that students can attend U. of Virginia, VA tech or George Mason University after spending two years at Community College. Tuition at CC is dirt cheap and you can save tons of money that way. Tuition at George Mason University is about 11K/year, still cheap. You get a Computer Sciences degree at GMU and you can get 100K+/yr job. That's more than enough to pay off 11k/yr loan. It is not cheap to study abroad: https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/student-finance/how-much-does-it-cost-study-uk

 

[JeffG]

I don’t want to derail too much but, given the charges that international players are ripping off the U.S., it does seem relevant that about 40,000 U.S. students are enrolled in full degree programs abroad per year, often tuition free or at greatly reduced (read as: highly subsidized) prices. A sample of what’s available:
Seven Countries With Nearly Free College