Embracing WTA forehand

[Curious]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.
I now believe WTA forehand is the smartest, highest percentage forehand technique for a rec player. A compact WTA forehand that is. I'm still not a fan of a huge loop like Halep forehand.
Hence keeping the racket on the hitting side and flipping the racket are the most harmful tips ever.

 

[MyFearHand]

WTA, ATP, ultimately you have to be in the right position for any of that to matter.

 

[Curious]

WTA, ATP, ultimately you have to be in the right position for any of that to matter.

Of course but assuming you’re in the right position which one is easier to master/ more likely to be a reliable stroke?

 

[AnyPUG]

hope this WTA fh detour is short and cheap.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.
I now believe WTA forehand is the smartest, highest percentage forehand technique for a rec player. A compact WTA forehand that is. I'm still not a fan of a huge loop like Halep forehand.
Hence keeping the racket on the hitting side and flipping the racket are the most harmful tips ever.

You aren’t trying to keep the racquet on the hitting side or flipping the racquet, if you are, you are doing it wrong.

 

[Curious]

I like the continuity of the racket head path/ string bed angle unlike the sudden wild changes in Federer forehand.

 

[MyFearHand]

Of course but assuming you’re in the right position which one is easier to master/ more likely to be a reliable stroke?

I was more addressing the first part of your post about wasting time on the ATP forehand. WTA forehand is similarly wasted time, spend some time on movement.

 

[Curious]

I was more addressing the first part of your post about wasting time on the ATP forehand. WTA forehand is similarly wasted time, spend some time on movement.

Hopefully I won’t need to waste time on WTA fh because I seem to do it naturally. Yeah, next more focus on movement and positioning.

 

[Curious]

Another very effective compact WTA fh. @MyFearHand , I see some similarities to your fh there.

 

[fecund345]

WTA, ATP, ultimately you have to be in the right position for any of that to matter.

Agreed. During an average 1 to 2 hour tennis match, your racket strings are contact with the ball less than one second. So footwork is king. It is more important that the stroke template you use.

 

[Dragy]

All that “compactness” works on low bouncing surfaces, against fast balls. Get on clay on hot day vs decent spin hitter, and you need to take racquet back higher, enter the slot higher.

Other from that - yeah, sure, why not. If you manly focus on supinated forearm instead of typical ATP pronated takeback. Maybe l check that you don’t collapse your elbow too early - ATP high elbow takeback covers for this.

 

[Curious]

I think this is great example for compact WTA forehand.

 

[Dragy]

I think this is great example for compact WTA forehand.

Why are you focused on compactness? Do your opponents challenge you with fast balls a lot?

 

[Curious]

Why are you focused on compactness? Do your opponents challenge you with fast balls a lot?

The bigger the loop the more likely things can go wrong, I think. Compact for easier timing and cleaner contact in other words.

 

[Dragy]

The bigger the loop the more likely things can go wrong, I think. Compact for easier timing and cleaner contact in other words.

Is Guga compact to you? I think he has decently full loop.

 

[zill]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.
I now believe WTA forehand is the smartest, highest percentage forehand technique for a rec player. A compact WTA forehand that is. I'm still not a fan of a huge loop like Halep forehand.
Hence keeping the racket on the hitting side and flipping the racket are the most harmful tips ever.

That's the way.

 

[Curious]

Is Guga compact to you? I think he has decently full loop.

Not much behind his back anyway.
I'm just happy that I'm putting an end to worrying about racket going behind the back and flipping with the forward swing. That's about it really. The rest is not that important.

 

[Dragy]

Full unit turn in prep is key, imho. Rec players who lack coiling sometimes go behind the back with just arm, which is the issue. Typical WTA huge backswing has same reason - more power needed - but on top of full body coil, not instead.

 

[Curious]

Full unit turn in prep is key, imho. Rec players who lack coiling sometimes go behind the back with just arm, which is the issue. Typical WTA huge backswing has same reason - more power needed - but on top of full body coil, not instead.

That could be it but I'm not doing it for power. IMO the benefit is from the arm and racket moving as a unit. In ATP forehand especially the really flippy ones like Federer the wrist is a significant hinge involved in the whip, which is a very tricky addition to the stroke. I don't think it's for the average talent. That's why it's so rare even among the best in the world.

 

[Dragy]

That could be it but I'm not doing it for power. IMO the benefit is from the arm and racket moving as a unit. In ATP forehand especially the really flippy ones like Federer the wrist is a significant hinge involved in the whip, which is a very tricky addition to the stroke. I don't think it's for the average talent. That's why it's so rare even among the best in the world.

Look up Barty, she had good FH technique last time I checked.

 

[Curious]

Look up Barty, she had good FH technique last time I checked.

Of course. The loop is a bit too high for me though, very similar to Gonzales forehand. But they time it perfectly.

 

[MyFearHand]

Another very effective compact WTA fh. @MyFearHand , I see some similarities to your fh there.

If only I could hit it that hard!

 

[Curious]

If only I could hit it that hard!

Your grip looks quite extreme. Could it be preventing a good drive/penetration?
I mean it’s like you hit the ball a bit ‘thinly’.

 

[MyFearHand]

Your grip looks quite extreme. Could it be preventing a good drive/penetration?
I mean it’s like you hit the ball a bit ‘thinly’.

Oh man first I changed my whole service motion, now I have to change my grip? I may never be able to play a competitive match again.

In all seriousness my grip isn’t that extreme I think it’s just the way I hold my wrist and the flip of the racket face I do. But my grip is SW.

 

[tendency]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.
I now believe WTA forehand is the smartest, highest percentage forehand technique for a rec player. A compact WTA forehand that is. I'm still not a fan of a huge loop like Halep forehand.
Hence keeping the racket on the hitting side and flipping the racket are the most harmful tips ever.

That's pretty much my forehand which I learned in the mid 80s. Look up boy Agassi's forehand .. I've modified mine a bit over the years to have a slightly more compact oval loop and I engage the core more to generate more topspin (as well as a more aggressive low-to-high swing path).

 

[tendency]

Another very effective compact WTA fh. @MyFearHand , I see some similarities to your fh there.

Meh - not sure Nick is really doing a true WTA - looks more like Rafa's forehand to me.

 

[AnyPUG]

I think this is great example for compact WTA forehand.

Compact yes, WTA no. She does not hit a typical WTA forehand, it's a lot more closer to ATP style

quote -
"Muguruza has an extreme semi-western grip, with her hand mostly under the handle. It’s close to the grip used by Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal. Like most men’s players, Muguruza also keeps her racquet mainly on her right side during the backswing."

 

[AnyPUG]

I was more addressing the first part of your post about wasting time on the ATP forehand. WTA forehand is similarly wasted time, spend some time on movement.

imo, in terms of stroke mechanics, the primary issues are racket drop and the very late contact. I had posted a picture in another thread. The CP is typically 1-2 ft in front, but should be 3-4 ft in front coming up from below the ball height.

 

[Curious]

Meh - not sure Nick is really doing a true WTA - looks more like Rafa's forehand to me.

Compact yes, WTA no. She does not hit a typical WTA forehand, it's a lot more closer to ATP style

The main differentiator is whether the racket flips or not. WTA fh sets the racket forearm angle ( around 100 degrees) in the take back and maintains it during the whole drop and forward swing and imo that’s why it’s the best option for a rec player. The racket is a true extension of the arm. This is lost In ATP fh because of the disconnection at the wrist joint.

 

[user92626]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.
I now believe WTA forehand is the smartest, highest percentage forehand technique for a rec player. A compact WTA forehand that is. I'm still not a fan of a huge loop like Halep forehand.
Hence keeping the racket on the hitting side and flipping the racket are the most harmful tips ever.

Good videoing.

I would also be too ashamed to face the guys here if I hit that FH.

 

[onehandbh]

Good videoing.

I would also be too ashamed to face the guys here if I hit that FH.

Can you post a video of your forehand.

I am curious to see how it compares to @Curious '

 

[user92626]

Can you post a video of your forehand.

I am curious to see how it compares to @Curious '

It's completely shytty. That's why I am hiding way more than Curious. At least Curious dares to show...his back.

 

[Curious]

It's completely shytty. That's why I am hiding way more than Curious. At least Curious dares to show...his back.

No, it was pretty good imo. Nice and simple, compact.

 

[user92626]

@Curious
I was joking around w. U earlier. New swing looks nice. Change is fun.

Im still changing my fh. Losing alot these days.

 

[AnyPUG]

The main differentiator is whether the racket flips or not.

It's not - but I'm not going to rehash the argument here as this is a well defined concept and easy for interested folks to look it up.

 

[Curious]

It's not - but I'm not going to rehash the argument here as this is a well defined concept and easy for interested folks to look it up.

To me it is the main issue. Flip destroys the racket-hand orientation in space. Racket head position in relation to the hand is maintained throughout the stroke in WTA forehand. I think it’s a huge thing for a rec player.

 

[AnyPUG]

To me it is the main issue. Flip destroys the racket-hand orientation in space. Racket head position in relation to the hand is maintained throughout the stroke in WTA forehand. I think it’s a huge thing for a rec player.

Disagree - your issue is severe lack of extension and very late contact. Nothing to do with flip, atp or wta. imo, wta style makes your situation worse - makes contact even late and extension even less.

 

[Curious]

Disagree - your issue is severe lack of extension and very late contact. Nothing to do with flip, atp or wta. imo, wta style makes your situation worse - makes contact even late and extension even less.

Not sure if it's severe but yeah it's a common issue in rec tennis. Don't dismiss what I said about the racket-hand orientation in space remaining the same in WTA forehand. See if you can spot it here.
Actually I meant to say the racket-forearm orientation with a relatively constant extended wrist joint compared to ATP forehand.

 

[Curious]

Something like this.

 

[AnyPUG]

Something like this.

ATP style triggers chest and other upper body muscles.
Why men don't take advantage of 100% more strength in upper body(compared to women) by using the ATP style is something I'll not know.
Before someone says power is not an issue in rec tennis, consider this - any sport including tennis is about generating easy power over the course of the entire duration.

 

[Dragy]

ATP style triggers chest and other upper body muscles.
Why men don't take advantage of 100% more strength in upper body(compared to women) by using the ATP style is something I'll not know.
Before someone says power is not an issue in rec tennis, consider this - any sport including tennis is about generating easy power over the course of the entire duration.

Is Karolina Muchova or Ons Jabeur triggering chest and other upper body muscles, or are they just adopting the technique that has particular advantages for their game?

 

[AnyPUG]

Is Karolina Muchova or Ons Jabeur triggering chest and other upper body muscles, or are they just adopting the technique that has particular advantages for their game?

No issues with women using atp style though not very useful for them, but men not using ATP is a colossal wasted opportunity.

 

[Dragy]

No issues with women using atp style though not very useful for them, but men not using ATP is a colossal wasted opportunity.

Well actually there are enough examples of strong hitters on pro tour who deviated from your textbook ATP FH. Biggest advantage of this technique is timing enhancement and ability to play against faster balls without compromising RHS. And yes, that is crucial on tour. For rec men? Not so much. But I still agree ATP FH technique is worth learning and not that hard to adopt as some say.

 

[AnyPUG]

Well actually there are enough examples of strong hitters on pro tour who deviated from your textbook ATP FH. Biggest advantage of this technique is timing enhancement and ability to play against faster balls without compromising RHS. And yes, that is crucial on tour. For rec men? Not so much. But I still agree ATP FH technique is worth learning and not that hard to adopt as some say.

imo, the simplicity of ATP style tricks people into thinking it's very complicated to execute. Too much emphasis on forcing lag, flip etc. but in reality all these happen naturally when the fundamentals of ATP is executed - i.e keeping the racket on the hitting side of the body, unit turn with shoulder separation, initiating the swing from ground up, and keeping lose grip.

 

[user92626]

imo, the simplicity of ATP style tricks people into thinking it's very complicate to execute. Too much emphasis on forcing lag, flip etc. but in reality all these happen naturally when the fundamentals of ATP is executed - i.e keeping the racket on the hitting side of the body, unit turn with shoulder separation, initiating the swing from ground up, and keeping lose grip.

I also thought the FH was simple but in reflection I have done so many changes, haven't got it down to a consistent reliable level, I will have to say it's quite complicated.

I have never seen any rec players that hit like any pro's, even if it's just a spotty stroke here and there. Rec player's arms are all over the place, their stances are messy.

 

[user92626]

Something like this.

It's fun to stand in one place and wack balls, isn't it?

I enjoy that, too.

But I'm slowly moving away from it. I'm introducing movements into my machine ball sessions. The more the better.

If I hit the ball well after taking 3, 4 steps...great! And given the ball machine is slow, do 2 or 3 empty swings between each "ball" swing. It's pretty nice as simulation.

 

[AnyPUG]

I also thought the FH was simple but in reflection I have done so many changes, haven't got it down to a consistent reliable level, I will have to say it's quite complicated.

I have never seen any rec players that hit like any pro's, even if it's just a spotty stroke here and there. Rec player's arms are all over the place, their stances are messy.

How do you explain kids who start smacking FH in 1-2 years with regular coaching?
I think average adults struggle because they act like average adults( pretend like they know it all and don't listen to wisdom). if adults get into serious learning mode, FH is one of the easiest strokes to learn - ATP makes it even simpler. Does it mean you will reach 4.5? probably not, because movement is a requirement to hit a good fh and many adults struggle there.

 

[user92626]

How do you explain kids who start smacking FH in 1-2 years with regular coaching?
I think average adults struggle because they act like average adults( pretend like they know it all and don't listen to wisdom). if adults get into serious learning mode, FH is one of the easiest strokes to learn - ATP makes it even simpler. Does it mean you will reach 4.5? probably not, because movement is a requirement to hit a good fh and many adults struggle there.

Maybe you're talking about insincere jerks, but
Why do you think average adults want to pretend like they know it all and don't like wisdom? What does that do for their goal of improvement?

People tend to gravitate toward what works for them. It's human instinct.

What you see is the best that rec players can do. Tennis is simply too hard for many.

 

[jz000]

Looks good sir

 

[AnyPUG]

Maybe you're talking about insincere jerks, but
Why do you think average adults want to pretend like they know it all and don't like wisdom? What does that do for their goal of improvement?

People tend to gravitate toward what works for them. It's human instinct.

What you see is the best that rec players can do. Tennis is simply too hard for many.

I'm talking about sincere and well intentioned folks, but with average kinesthetic intelligence. The diminished learning rate results from unknowing inertia.