Embracing WTA forehand

[user92626]

I think @coolvinny and @Dragy will agree with my observation.

Is Djoker doing a combination of flexion & abduction?

Im seeing his arm going diagonal

 

[Curious]

When you cross your arm into your body, shouldn't you TURN the body along? Turn it to the left side as not to crush the bicep or chest muscle.

Sure. Arm still collapses often as you see all the time.

 

[Curious]

Is Djoker doing a combination of flexion & abduction?

Im seeing his arm going diagonal

Mostly forward isn’t it?

 

[Curious]

Excellent demonstration of the arm swinging completely forward with zero collapse into the torso even during the follow through. ( what forearm does is another story)

 

[zill]

Excellent demonstration of the arm swinging completely forward with zero collapse into the torso even during the follow through. ( what forearm does is another story)

The main story actually and 99% people here do not know about.

 

[user92626]

For a low ball, sure you can do a flexion swing, going fr low to high. I call it the bowling style.

For a higher ball, like chest high, can you still do a mostly flexion?

 

[user92626]

Watch Dimitrov. He does alot of crossing the arm into his body, Curious's abduction, do you see anything collapses or non dom hand drops low?

 

[Curious]

For a low ball, sure you can do a flexion swing, going fr low to high. I call it the bowling style.

For a higher ball, like chest high, can you still do a mostly flexion?

Good point. You can’t.

 

[user92626]

Excellent demonstration of the arm swinging completely forward with zero collapse into the torso even during the follow through. ( what forearm does is another story)

If we don't swing completely forward, where do we swing to send the ball to a target in front?

 

[Curious]

If we don't swing completely forward, where do we swing to send the ball to a target in front?

The swing could be too circular and may still hit the ball on its path.

 

[user92626]

The swing could be too circular and may still hit the ball on its path.

You find one on youtube to post? Or can you demonstrate it with your own video?

 

[Curious]

You find one on youtube to post? Or can you demonstrate it with your own video?

Most forehands collapse/wrap around before doing a good long extension in rec tennis, right? That’s a fact. Let’s not go back to the beginning of the discussion.

 

[user92626]

Most forehands collapse/wrap around before doing a good long extension in rec tennis, right? That’s a fact. Let’s not go back to the beginning of the discussion.

I don't know. I just wanna SEE some examples of bad, no extension, no forward FHs.

 

[Curious]

I don't know. I just wanna SEE some examples of bad, no extension, no forward FHs.

Forget about the bad ones.

 

[user92626]

Good point. You can’t.

So, what have we learned? Nothing.

U used something, flexion, that cannot be used for tennis to explain tennis.

I learned Nothing about extension. Lol

 

[Curious]

So, what have we learned? Nothing.

U used something, flexion, that cannot be used for tennis to explain tennis.

I learned Nothing about extension. Lol

Maybe you’re already doing it properly. If not I’m sure you’ll get it when you do it.

 

[Dragy]

@Dragy @AnyPUG

Regarding EXTENSION and FORWARDNESS of our swing, isn't it a misdirection to teach it by itself?

Aren't we already supposed to SWING the ball TOWARD/FORWARD our desired target?

I only suggest focusing on extension where there’s clear and harmful lack of. The issue is player tries to hit harder, with more RHS, accelerates early with lots of effort to only consume all the momentum into again muscle effort by stopping it and “snatching” across. While he can have much less effort early on the swing, but use whole momentum via release into extension to get great drive and spin.

I think @coolvinny and @Dragy will agree with my observation.

I think you have strokes where there’s minimal adduction until follow-through - more fade type, where dominant shoulder gets in front of the other one.

And you may have more noticeable adduction before contact when you release earlier to draw the ball more, lift and spin, most likely - CC.

But yeah, not doing full adduction to hit the ball.

 

[optic yellow]

I believe it (non dom hand staying up)helps to stop over rotation. So for consistency and power. Easy to experiment even with shadow swings to feel the difference in core rotation.

Yeah it stabilizes the trunk. Similar effect to 1HBH.

 

[tendency]

What I want to know is why you guys (mainly @Curious & @user92626) are so obsessed with this? Who cares about 'arm collapse', 'extension' etc .. do you think any good players even think about these things? The arm movement is simply in service to the type of shot the high level player is trying to hit. You're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Curious]

What I want to know is why you guys (mainly @Curious & @user92626) are so obsessed with this? Who cares about 'arm collapse', 'extension' etc .. do you think any good players even think about these things? The arm movement is simply in service to the type of shot the high level player is trying to hit. You're putting the cart before the horse.

What else should we think/talk about on this forum?

 

[optic yellow]

What else should we think/talk about on this forum?

Well the types of shots the high level player is trying to hit is also a potentially fruitful topic of discussion.

 

[user92626]

What I want to know is why you guys (mainly @Curious & @user92626) are so obsessed with this? Who cares about 'arm collapse', 'extension' etc .. do you think any good players even think about these things? The arm movement is simply in service to the type of shot the high level player is trying to hit. You're putting the cart before the horse.

No, that's not it for me.
Having a collapsed non dom arm is poor form. No balance. You're doing the stroke wrong and won't reach its full potential. No?

I don't understand horse cart thing.

Even if we play lightly, casually, we still need to do a good setup. No? Like pros w. Good footwork, fh, bh even when they warmup rally.Yeah?

 

[tendency]

What else should we think/talk about on this forum?

lol..

 

[coolvinny]

I think @coolvinny and @Dragy will agree with my observation.

I’m not sure about this. Maybe there’s some abduction but at least for me not consciously. From the baseline, I think about throwing the shoulder forward with help from the hips and, depending on the shot, some arm action. I definitely never think of throwing the shoulder “across”. Throwing the shoulder forward also helps avoid the common problem of not hitting out front.

 

[user92626]

I’m not sure about this. Maybe there’s some abduction but at least for me not consciously. From the baseline, I think about throwing the shoulder forward with help from the hips and, depending on the shot, some arm action. I definitely never think of throwing the shoulder “across”. Throwing the shoulder forward also helps avoid the common problem of not hitting out front.

What does throwing the shoulder across or any directions other than forward even look like?

I think we're trying too hard to come up with very crappy stuff to justify the things we think we get right.

It's actually a common thing we do. Say, we can only achieve an average career. To justify that we come up with grossly low, wrong careers that others do though we don't know who those people are.

 

[coolvinny]

What does throwing the shoulder across or any directions other than forward even look like?

I think we're trying too hard to come up with very crappy stuff to justify the things we think we get right.

It's actually a common thing we do. Say, we can only achieve an average career. To justify that we come up with grossly low, wrong careers that others do though we don't know who those people are.

It looks like north instead of northwest, but for it so work well requires decent spacing.

 

[Curious]

@user92626
Don't you think Federer's left arm dangle on forehand here is a little rec level?

 

[user92626]

@user92626
Don't you think Federer's left arm dangle on forehand here is a little rec level?

Yes. He was our level back then.

 

[Curious]

Yes. He was our level back then.

I like his old loopy forehand much better than his latest one.

 

[user92626]

I like his old loopy forehand much better than his latest one.

So what does your fh look like now? I couldn't keep up w you anymore

Atp, wta, leading w edge, eastern, haiwaian, Guangzhou or what?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.

The people teaching you and posting videos that you watch have wasted your time.

 

[Curious]

The people teaching you and posting videos that you watch have wasted your time.

The process has not finished yet. At the moment that Federer forehand in 2006 is my favourite.

 

[AnyPUG]

I’m not sure about this. Maybe there’s some abduction but at least for me not consciously. From the baseline, I think about throwing the shoulder forward with help from the hips and, depending on the shot, some arm action. I definitely never think of throwing the shoulder “across”. Throwing the shoulder forward also helps avoid the common problem of not hitting out front.

It's up and away from the body - not bringing across as you said. It will eventually come across at the end of the " up and away" segment of the swing.

 

[AnyPUG]

For a low ball, sure you can do a flexion swing, going fr low to high. I call it the bowling style.

For a higher ball, like chest high, can you still do a mostly flexion?

Totally incorrect - it should always be up and away from the body. Not across or just forward. See the video above.

 

[Curious]

Totally incorrect - it should always be up and away from the body. Not across or just forward. See the video above.

There will naturally be more horizontal adduction on high forehands.

 

[AnyPUG]

There will naturally be more horizontal adduction on high forehands.

Not just high forehands, on all TS forehands because TS requires low to high. If the racket can't get under the ball, then need to slice the ball up. And always UP and AWAY from the body. Repeat - UP and AWAY.

 

[Curious]

Nothing is natural, all intentional.

For those not familiar with the terminology

 

[AnyPUG]

For those not familiar with the terminology

Your demo video is incorrect - it's never ever mostly flexion. Even low balls require up and away for consistent ts - that's how the modern forehand is executed. And you are slapping the high balls horizontally - unless it's close to the service line, baseline balls require low to high and away swing path. If you are not familiar with inside-out swing path, I suggest study the swing path carefully and look at coaching videos. It's a well established concept - nothing to discuss there.

 

[Curious]

Your demo video is incorrect - it's never ever mostly flexion. Even low balls require up and away for consistent ts - that's how the modern forehand is executed. And you are slapping the high balls horizontally - unless it's close to the service line, baseline balls require low to high and away swing path. If you are not familiar with inside-out swing path, I suggest study the swing path carefully and look at coaching videos. It's a well established concept - nothing to discuss there.

There will be variations but I don’t think the main idea is incorrect.

 

[AnyPUG]

There will be variations but I don’t think the main idea is incorrect.

Inside-out is the "universal swing path" of a good modern forehand. The idea you are trying to communicate in your video is either incorrect or some unknown technique. It's not how coached players execute the shots.
tbh, I don't expect you to take my words on it - I posted here so other readers who are open to listen are not mislead.

 

[Curious]

If you are not familiar with inside-out swing path, I suggest study the swing path carefully and look at coaching videos. It's a well established concept - nothing to discuss there

I’m familiar with it although I haven’t seen anyone else mention it other than OTI coaches.

 

[Curious]

readers who are open to listen are not mislead.

I’m listening to you. Are you listening to me as well or just think you know best so dismiss it? If so let me know about your tennis qualifications or credentials and I’ll shut up!

 

[AnyPUG]

I’m familiar with it although I haven’t seen anyone else mention it other than OTI coaches.

One more video - if you are not intentionally swinging inside-out, that might be the breakthrough you might be looking for in your quest for a modern forehand.

 

[AnyPUG]

I’m listening to you. Are you listening to me as well or just think you know best so dismiss it? If so let me know about your tennis qualifications or credentials and I’ll shut up!

I didn't mean to dismiss your idea because you said it - sorry, if I created that impression. I said incorrect because it was contrary to what many professional( and reputed) coaches teach.
I'm not a coach - just a student of technique who subscribes to the idea of listening to established experts. That's why I usually reference other professional and reputed coaches.

 

[Curious]

I didn't mean to dismiss your idea because you said it - sorry, if I created that impression. I said incorrect because it was contrary to what many professional( and reputed) coaches teach.
I'm not a coach - just a student of technique who subscribes to the idea of listening to established experts. That's why I usually reference other professional and reputed coaches.

I described a motion biomechanically the way I see it. Then I agreed there’s some variation depending on the particular shot. If someone says something you haven’t heard from coaches does it make it incorrect automatically? A coach doesn’t have to use anatomical terms/definitions.