Embracing WTA forehand

Dragy

Legend
If there's a published content offering a different view, I'm all eyes and ears. Not much help, if different coaches say different things in private.
The forum has been a great clearing house for info -especially posts which are fact based and with citation/references to reputable sources.
There's no time to try 100 things to gain personal insight - that's what experts are meant for.
Unfortunately, there are things published as content by professional coaches, which are total bs. After all we are personally responsible for what we take for ourselves. Luckily, it’s a hobby for most of us, so nothing terrible can happen. Have fun, enjoy the road.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I posted a picture of Ruud who tends to rotate far past conventionally accepted “stop” point for chest. Yet has textbook off-arm position. So what I mean it doesn’t inhibit rotation (actually does the opposite).
Well, the caveat is Ruud isn't very good. He's like a good 4.0 at best in the pro circus. :)

The guy drops his hand low and thus over rotates?

 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The professional coaches say it's for balance and stop over-rotation (as I referenced above). It's safer bet to go by what the vast majority of professionals who do this for a living say.
But I can see the temptation of a few posters who often seem to believe the magic of voodoo science - but I see no upside to it.

These two coaches discuss non - dom arm starting at 4:40

I subscribe to the idea of balance. Not so sure about stopping over-rotation.

Isn't the lefty man also a coach? He's pretty good in other videos.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Yes, suddenly occurred to me that I've wasted years of my life trying to learn the ATP forehand.


I've said that for I dunno how many years now for rec players, and just one reason the term WTA forehand is a disservice to what it is. And I've posted dozens of videos of players from 4.5 to college D1s that use most the elements of it. It simplifies so many aspects of the stroke, but guys just think "women's" forehand and can't get past that.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Took you long enough! Let's see it.

The peanut gallery will judge whether you get it right or not.
In a few days. In the meantime perfect demo here. How does he manage not to open his racket face at contact despite his conservative grip and hitting the ball so far out in front? That’s where the secret lies!

 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
In a few days. In the meantime perfect demo here. How does he manage not to open his racket face at contact despite his conservative grip and hitting the ball so far out in front? That’s where the secret lies!

He doesn't need an open racket face at contact to hit the ball? I think it's magic. I dunno, C.

I'm struggling to hit a 3.5 FH now. :cry: :censored:
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I've said that for I dunno how many years now for rec players, and just one reason the term WTA forehand is a disservice to what it is. And I've posted dozens of videos of players from 4.5 to college D1s that use most the elements of it. It simplifies so many aspects of the stroke, but guys just think "women's" forehand and can't get past that.
But there's technical purists like @Curious @zill @AnyPUG @Dragy
They have eyes for details ...
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
I am all for embracing the WTA
giphy-3.gif
 

tendency

Rookie
We, well I know I do, try to do that (just to be like pro) but we fail because maybe something else we do is off and it pulls the non-hitting arm off along.

Does that make sense?

You don't need your off hand to be in the catch-the-racket position. If your shoulders rotate correctly, at the right time, your left hand will be fine. Some people, however, like to use the offhand as more of a rudder to help prevent over rotation of the shoulders. You don't 'have' to do it (catch the racket) though it's a useful technique for many. So, don't just try to catch-the-racket for the sake of it, and that's not why the pros/others are doing it.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
You don't need your off hand to be in the catch-the-racket position. If your shoulders rotate correctly, at the right time, your left hand will be fine. Some people, however, like to use the offhand as more of a rudder to help prevent over rotation of the shoulders. You don't 'have' to do it (catch the racket) though it's a useful technique for many. So, don't just try to catch-the-racket for the sake of it, and that's not why the pros/others are doing it.
I don't aim to do catch the racket. I'm hoping to extend the off hand to see what benefits I can get for my stroke. Maybe over time I will see more power, balance.

But do you agree that keeping the off hand up is a fundamental? Is it worthwhile to pursue?
 

yoyofly

New User
I don’t think it’s a very good idea to learn techniques from pictures of pros hitting balls in extreme cases. Better to see when they are hitting slow, or at practice.

Also, the non hitting arm behavior is the result of upper body stableness, while rotating. The mindset is the use the left arm to keep the upper body stable while doing all those fast crazy forward, circular, upward , downward, whatever movements.
 

coolvinny

Rookie
When I think of the WTA forehand I think of the racket “breaking the plane”. I think it’s better to avoid that. But I support not trying to “pat the dog” and other ATP-isms. I consciously moved to more of an “edge drop” for my baseline forehand and it helped my game. Funny thing is that I still get to a near PTD position a lot of the time, but more dynamically and with way better results.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
When I think of the WTA forehand I think of the racket “breaking the plane”. I think it’s better to avoid that. But I support not trying to “pat the dog” and other ATP-isms. I consciously moved to more of an “edge drop” for my baseline forehand and it helped my game. Funny thing is that I still get to a near PTD position a lot of the time, but more dynamically and with way better results.
Speaking of stance, what an important point this coach makes about the proper open stance. What we think open may not be the proper way!


 

Dragy

Legend
Speaking of stance, what an important point this coach makes about the proper open stance. What we think open may not be the proper way!


Interesting tip, it really sometimes work to focus on the “other” leg, arm, hand etc. To set up conditions where you cannot but use the dominant side limb properly (y)
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Interesting tip, it really sometimes work to focus on the “other” leg, arm, hand etc. To set up conditions where you cannot but use the dominant side limb properly (y)
What’s the point of open stance if you don’t turn? His tip makes so much sense as it’s much easier to turn the torso and hips that way.
 

tendency

Rookie
I don't aim to do catch the racket. I'm hoping to extend the off hand to see what benefits I can get for my stroke. Maybe over time I will see more power, balance.

But do you agree that keeping the off hand up is a fundamental? Is it worthwhile to pursue?

It's worthwhile doing, IMO, in the pursuit of solving technical issues in your swing. I do it, for instance, because when I was learning the game I had issues with over rotating my upper body and dropping my arm which caused swing plane issues. Catching the racket helped fix both of these problems in my swing.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
It simplifies so many aspects of the stroke, but guys just think "women's" forehand and can't get past that.

It's not about gender or sexual orientation, the ATP style takes advantage of the relative strength of the upper body muscles compared to the WTA style. The wta forehand tricks people into hitting flat slaps.
that's why most rec players with wta style forehand struggle to deal with balls which are short and low. ATP style makes it easy to handle variety of balls.
ATP forehand is simpler (just keep the racket on the hitting side and make early contact). typically, folks get lost in flip and lag which in reality should be the result of using the proper muscles and relaxation.
but atp vs wta is really losing forest for the trees - the primary issue is movement to the ball. most rec player just wait for the ball and don't use the proper footwork. imo, atp/wta does not matter, what matters is the right way to step into meet the ball.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
I think what we are calling a WTA forehand that doesn't break the back plane of the shoulder line is ideal for rec players. It is simpler with less moving parts, tends to be less wristy around contact and still can provide plenty of power and spin.

This video is a good example. This is a practice session with cooperative hitting. In a match, I think you would see a little more speed and energy in the forward swing but this is basically a good simple clean forehand model. Notice, that there is really no wrist manipulation around contact as the wrist is still extended (laid back) after the ball is off the strings. He does allow the wrist to release and relax after extension and into the follow thru but that's for comfort as the ball is long gone.

 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
I think what we are calling a WTA forehand that doesn't break the back plane of the shoulder line is ideal for rec players. It is simpler with less moving parts, tends to be less wristy around contact and still can provide plenty of power and spin.

This video is a good example. This is a practice session with cooperative hitting. In a match, I think you would see a little more speed and energy in the forward swing but this is basically a good simple clean forehand model. Notice, that there is really no wrist manipulation around contact as the wrist is still extended (laid back) after the ball is off the strings. He does allow the wrist to release and relax after extension and into the follow thru but that's for comfort as the ball is long gone.


Even breaking the back plane should be fine for most rec players.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Even breaking the back plane should be fine for most rec players.
I strive to not break the plane as it shortens the swing if I don't let the racket head go back. If you let the racket head go back 1.5 feet more, it then has to come forward 1.5 foot more to get back to the original position which results in a swing that is 3 feet longer than if you keep the racket head from breaking the plane. 3 feet more of swing path requires more time and is harder to time. Sloane Stephens is a good example of a pro who at times lets the racket head go extremely far behind the shoulder line. She's one of my favorite players and she won the USOpen but I think her huge swing accounts for erratic results. You can hit the ball with plenty of power and spin and not break the plane. At a minimum, try to keep the hitting hand in front of the shoulder line in my view.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
I strive to not break the plane as it shortens the swing if I don't let the racket head go back. If you let the racket head go back 1.5 feet more, it then has to come forward 1.5 foot more to get back to the original position which results in a swing that is 3 feet longer than if you keep the racket head from breaking the plane. 3 feet more of swing path requires more time and is harder to time. Sloane Stephens is a good example of a pro who at times lets the racket head go extremely far behind the shoulder line. She's one of my favorite players and she won the USOpen but I think her huge swing accounts for erratic results. You can hit the ball with plenty of power and spin and not break the plane. At a minimum, try to keep the hitting hand in front of the shoulder line in my view.
Each one of us is different Women professionals are better than a lot of average male rec players and they don’t hit erratically even with the WTA fh. It is not as if most male rec players are going to play against consistent heavy pace or fast shots anyway.

If you can hit fine without breaking the plane, I agree that is better. However if you have good timing and are consistent even if you break the plane, IMO that should be fine as well.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
I think what we are calling a WTA forehand that doesn't break the back plane of the shoulder line is ideal for rec players. It is simpler with less moving parts, tends to be less wristy around contact and still can provide plenty of power and spin.

This video is a good example. This is a practice session with cooperative hitting. In a match, I think you would see a little more speed and energy in the forward swing but this is basically a good simple clean forehand model. Notice, that there is really no wrist manipulation around contact as the wrist is still extended (laid back) after the ball is off the strings. He does allow the wrist to release and relax after extension and into the follow thru but that's for comfort as the ball is long gone.


isn't this a version of atp forehand? The only difference I notice from complete atp style is elbow elevation and shoulder separation (more core and chest involvement in the stroke).

But my main issue with the video is that he does not address all the leg & footwork steps he performed to get into the position to hit. I wish the technique videos paid more attention to that as well, instead of starting with arm and hand movement.
A typical rec player will now just copy arm and hand moves, and ignore the footwork that was required in the first place.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
This is a pro. However her UTR is pretty low. That might be due to many other things, but her strokes themseves are something I as a rec player will gladly take, WTA or not. There is something to be said about just striking the ball cleanly and with abandon.

As for being erratic here and there or being late for a few shots, I can have the same issues with an ATP fh as well.

 

TennisCJC

Legend
isn't this a version of atp forehand? The only difference I notice from complete atp style is elbow elevation and shoulder separation (more core and chest involvement in the stroke).

But my main issue with the video is that he does not address all the leg & footwork steps he performed to get into the position to hit. I wish the technique videos paid more attention to that as well, instead of starting with arm and hand movement.
A typical rec player will now just copy arm and hand moves, and ignore the footwork that was required in the first place.

I don't care if we call it WTA or ATP as the components of a good compact swing driven from core rotation are there. I agree with you that footwork and positioning are paramount to good tennis. I am 66 years young and my movement is not as good as it was a decade ago. I think my range on wide and short balls is my biggest weakness in singles. I simply don't get to the wide and short balls as quickly as I did and am not in position to hit aggressively as often as when I was younger. Yes, it is difficult to get good spacing and transfer weight into contact if you are struggling with movement.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Speaking of stance, what an important point this coach makes about the proper open stance. What we think open may not be the proper way!
Interesting tip, it really sometimes work to focus on the “other” leg, arm, hand etc. To set up conditions where you cannot but use the dominant side limb properly (y)
Oh you guys dissappoint me. You didn't know this before now? You guys are tips veterans here. :D
 

coolvinny

Rookie
It's worthwhile doing, IMO, in the pursuit of solving technical issues in your swing. I do it, for instance, because when I was learning the game I had issues with over rotating my upper body and dropping my arm which caused swing plane issues. Catching the racket helped fix both of these problems in my swing.
Catching the racket happens more naturally and helpfully if the racket arm is getting good extension. Not to pick on Curious, but in his ball machine WTA attempt video the extension is not good.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
topic-jack here: @user92626 just tuck your left arm up against your side as you rotate your shoulders and you'll be fine. it's not complicated technique.
yeah..I'm working on that. I'd like to have my hand up near shoulder level to look like a pro. At least I get the cool factor.

But seriously it's been hard.

I just discovered I made a mistake. I lowered the non-hand/arm along with the racket drop which is a no-no. Pros only lower the racket. Their other hands/arms stay high and only pull into the body.


 

tendency

Rookie
I just discovered I made a mistake. I lowered the non-hand/arm along with the racket drop which is a no-no...
+1 gotta keep the offhand high or it'll be real hard to tuck it in high 'n tight.

EDIT: you may want to check that you're keeping your offhand on the racket throat all the way to full coil.
 

coolvinny

Rookie
+1 gotta keep the offhand high or it'll be real hard to tuck it in high 'n tight.

EDIT: you may want to check that you're keeping your offhand on the racket throat all the way to full coil.
You can keep the off hand as high as you want but without good extension it will collapse early and low. Sometimes people will let it collapse fully then catch the racket in a separate movement…they’ll feel like they “caught” the racket but it’s not actually what happened.

You can experiment without a racket…with off arm in a majestic high and firm position, shadow swing a forehand on an imaginary cramped/jammed ball. Your off arm will finish pointing straight down with your off hand around your hip.
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
In all seriousness my grip isn’t that extreme I think it’s just the way I hold my wrist and the flip of the racket face I do. But my grip is SW.
I think it is just a spacing issue, based on what I saw in those 3 shots (or were they not typical?). You just don't have enough range of motion through contact, because you jam yourself up and sometimes even have to generate some gap by pushing your upper body away from the ball during contact (leading to even weaker contact).
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
not a fan of a huge loop

flipping the racket

You are still tooo fancied about these kind of external aesthetics. If I give you a fly swatter, and ask to kill a fly, what would you do? You would just try to find the "fly", prepare, and just hit the hell out of it, correct? If you won't miss a fly, you probably won't miss a tennis ball :) ... you may or may not be flipping the swatter... you may or may not be taking up too high.... but in the end, you find a good enough range of motion to accelerate "quickly" to put a good impact on the fly.

PS: Maynot be applicable to all tennis players. The above message was specifically for someone like @Curious
 
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Dragy

Legend
You are still tooo fancied about these kind of external aesthetics. If I give you a fly swatter, and ask to kill a fly, what would you do? You would just try to find the "fly", prepare, and just hit the hell out of it, correct? If you won't miss a fly, you probably won't miss a tennis ball :) ... you may or may not be flipping the swatter... you may or may not be taking up too high.... but in the end, you find a good enough range of motion to accelerate "quickly" to put a good impact on the fly.
Well the difference here, as well as with badminton, table tennis and maybe paddle variations (never tried) is the mass and swingweight of tennis racquet. It is higher for stability and to hit tennis ball across the court. So if you play with standard racquet you need more than just swing it with the arm.

To a degree, there are equipment aids like oversized racquets, but they come with cost.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
... specifically for @Curious or someone who is at his level, and still in search of aesthetics.

the search is true, but the search is really for controversial topics to generate clicks, tbh. A legitimate question is if a person in search of real skills/aesthetics would have taken the same route.
 

MyFearHand

Professional
I think it is just a spacing issue, based on what I saw in those 3 shots (or were they not typical?). You just don't have enough range of motion through contact, because you jam yourself up and sometimes even have to generate some gap by pushing your upper body away from the ball during contact (leading to even weaker contact).

Yeah, I make contact very close to my body. I’ve been hesitant to mess with that though because even when I make contact close to my body if I step in I can generate solid pace. I just rarely actually get myself to send myself forward into shots. It’s getting better though.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Question for all

Do you consciously, actively do supination (the part where your arm turns up/racket face opens up for forward swing)?

By consciously, actively, I means it's like the pronation or racket drop.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You are still tooo fancied about these kind of external aesthetics. If I give you a fly swatter, and ask to kill a fly, what would you do? You would just try to find the "fly", prepare, and just hit the hell out of it, correct? If you won't miss a fly, you probably won't miss a tennis ball :) ... you may or may not be flipping the swatter... you may or may not be taking up too high.... but in the end, you find a good enough range of motion to accelerate "quickly" to put a good impact on the fly.

PS: Maynot be applicable to all tennis players. The above message was specifically for someone like @Curious
What if you needed to kill the fly and also make it land on a specific spot on the carpet?
Anyway why would I be keen to switch to WTA forehand if I was concerned about aesthetics as you claimed? I don’t find it aesthetically appealing at all.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You can keep the off hand as high as you want but without good extension it will collapse early and low. Sometimes people will let it collapse fully then catch the racket in a separate movement…they’ll feel like they “caught” the racket but it’s not actually what happened.
This seems like a good point worth thinking about.
 
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