Federer > Djokovic prime to prime at slams except on plexi AO

[Deleted member 748597]

Lol, I was the opposite of that, I liked her

Caroline was exactly teenager types, not like elena who was stable, she was volatile but she was entertaining, I was a kind of shipping for Klaroline but that didn't work out. Caroline did make Klaus weak in his knees and more humane which was interesting to see and the writers wanted to change Klaus from a villian to one of the regular leads, that means he would blend in among the Mystic Falls crowd, even Damon+Stefan had started to get used to tolerating Klaus, that part of the plot was good and they did build Silas's legend with that Shane telling about him, then myths on how he is still alive etc etc ..... ..... Cool stuff but ruined it.

If you ask me whom I found annoying in the show (TVD+Originals) then that would be Tyler, Hayley, Cammy, Finn ..... All these were very annoying.

The thing is someone like Klaus falling in love with someone like Caroline didn't make much sense to me. But yeah, it was interesting seeing Klaus as one of the regulars hanging out with the Mystic Falls gang.

If I remember correctly, I wanted Silas to be the final villain and they ruined that. And Hayley was indeed very annoying. Everyone hated her.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

>

This is a TVD chat now.

What did you prefer? Stelena or Delena?

 

[ompluscator]

I agree. And not just Roger, but Mirka as well is > Djokovic. And not just on slams, but also in Basel and Halle, which is more important.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

@Lleytonstation

 

[Red Rick]

@Lleytonstation

She literally has bigger shoulders than John Isner.

 

[Lleytonstation]

This is a TVD chat now.

What did you prefer? Stelena or Delena?

Stelena and it is not even close.

 

[Lleytonstation]

She literally has bigger shoulders than John Isner.

I can't unsee that now. They are huge.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Stelena and it is not even close.

Same, man. Stelena4Life!

 

[InsideOut900]

1. Cllic USO 14 final vs Nadal AO 17 final - 4 tough sets
2. Roddick Wim 03 SF vs Murray Wim 09 SF - I guess, could go either way
3. Nadal Wim 07 final vs Djokovic Wim 14 final - 5 sets
4. Federer RG 11 SF vs Djokovic RG 12 SF (with and without faster balls) - idk honestly
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Nadal RG 20 final - 5 sets
6. Roddick Wim 09 final vs Nadal Wim 18 SF - 4 sets
7. Federer AO 06 final vs Tsonga AO 08 SF - 4 sets

Put the winner and number of sets in bolded.

Ok, last one before bed

 

[RS]

Ok, last one before bed

Do you live in the UK?

 

[Kralingen]

1. Cllic USO 14 final vs Nadal AO 17 final 5
2. Roddick Wim 03 SF vs Murray Wim 09 SF. no clue
3. Nadal Wim 07 final vs Djokovic Wim 14 final 5
4. Federer RG 11 SF vs Djokovic RG 12 SF (with and without faster balls) Fed in ‘11 conditions Djokovic in ‘12 conditions, both go 5 though
5. Djokovic RG 12 final vs Nadal RG 20 final 5
6. Roddick Wim 09 final vs Nadal Wim 18 SF 5
7. Federer AO 06 final vs Tsonga AO 08 SF 4, but Tsonga could legit pull this one off

Put the winner and number of sets in bolded.

Tsonga 08 SF was crazy, I actually think he could have pulled off an upset vs anyone that day. But given his final performance had to downgrade him.
Oh also what conditions is 2012 Djoko vs 2020 Nadal played in? If it’s in rainy or wet I pick Novak.

She literally has bigger shoulders than John Isner.

I always thought her collarbones were her signature feature..

 

[RS]

Tsonga 08 SF was crazy, I actually think he could have pulled off an upset vs anyone that day. But given his final performance had to downgrade him.
Oh also what conditions is 2012 Djoko vs 2020 Nadal played in? If it’s in rainy or wet I pick Novak.

I always thought her collarbones were her signature feature..

You can pick whichever.

 

[NatF]

1. Federer USO 07 final vs Cllic USO 14 final (Four)
2. Baggy AO 06 final vs Murray AO 11 final ( Baggy in four or Murray in five)
3. Agassi AO 04 vs Nadal AO 09 (Five)
4. Hewitt USO 04 final vs Nadal AO 19 final (Three or four)
5. Federer Wim 12 final vs Djokovic Wim 18 final (four)
6. Djokovic Wim 15 final vs Federer Wim 17 final (Four)
7. Murray AO 12 vs Wawrinka AO 13 (Five)

Put the winner and number of sets in bolded.

 

[Sunny014]

The thing is someone like Klaus falling in love with someone like Caroline didn't make much sense to me. But yeah, it was interesting seeing Klaus as one of the regulars hanging out with the Mystic Falls gang.

If I remember correctly, I wanted Silas to be the final villain and they ruined that. And Hayley was indeed very annoying. Everyone hated her.

Klaus and Elena would never fall in love, they are somewhat similar types, Caroline on the other hand was different, she was interested in cheerleading, dance committee and what not, Klaus found all that pretty interesting, opposites attract. He was more interested in these sort of stuffs but Elijah disliked all this, it is Elijah who would never fall in love with Caroline, not Klaus.

In the case of Silas I was disappointed when Paul Wesley came out as Silas, the Silas of season 5 looked like Stefan types, like a college kid, the way he spoke was unlike someone who is like 2000 years old. One explanation can be that Silas read their minds and blended in, but that is too weird, the way he talked was not from the Jesus Christ period, it was so millennial

That Atticus Shane had more Potential as Silas or maybe they should have invited some veteran actor like Joshua Jackson to play Silas, such a guy would have made sense, a larger than life Villian....

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Klaus and Elena would never fall in love, they are somewhat similar types, Caroline on the other hand was different, she was interested in cheerleading, dance committee and what not, Klaus found all that pretty interesting, opposites attract. He was more interested in these sort of stuffs but Elijah disliked all this, it is Elijah who would never fall in love with Caroline, not Klaus.

In the case of Silas I was disappointed when Paul Wesley came out as Silas, the Silas of season 5 looked like Stefan types, like a college kid, the way he spoke was unlike someone who is like 2000 years old. One explanation can be that Silas read their minds and blended in, but that is too weird, the way he talked was not from the Jesus Christ period, it was so millennial

That Atticus Shane had more Potential as Silas or maybe they should have invited some veteran actor like Joshua Jackson to play Silas, such a guy would have made sense, a larger than life Villian....

The entire Season 4 makes us so hyped for the almighty Silas. Later it turns out that Stefan is his doppelganger. And then in the beginning of the new Season, he gets killed easily like some worthless weakling. Goodbye characters with great potential. TVD was never the same after that.

 

[itrium84]

Real h2h:

Slam finals: 4-1
Slam semis: 7-4
YEC finals: 2-0
Masters finals: 5-3

I miss this guy

 

[Sunny014]

The entire Season 4 makes us so hyped for the almighty Silas. Later it turns out that Stefan is his doppelganger. And then in the beginning of the new Season, he gets killed easily like some worthless weakling. Goodbye characters with great potential. TVD was never the same after that.

True.
The hype was massive, on par with what they created for Klaus in season 2, infact more, the build up was really really big.... Then killed him off so easily.

Nd then they created some temporary villains that are so worthless, Augustines? What was that? Lol ... Heretics were also shabby .... That Kai dude was cool, I liked his acting, had pure evil written all over him. Then they again brought in trash characters, Sirens, totally useless, that CADE was also nonsense, imagine a black dude (no offense to anyone black) playing the role of an ancient Psychic in europe .... Greek??? Doesn't even make sense. His plot was also lame,l the actor was talented but his character was killed by Stefan with some stupid stick that they shove into his chest ? ......LOL .... Powerful Godlike characters falling to such lame tricks.

Similar to the Night King in GOT, got killed by Aarya Stark's hand tricks ?? A supernatural guy with heightened senses killed off by a slow mortal ....

Most shows fail to deliver justice and end properly.

Originals had Klaus-Elijah kill each other, the worst of the plots ever

Even True Blood had Sookie Stackhouse stake her lover (for entire 7 seasons) Vampire Bill Compton at the end of season 7, so silly.

Supernatural in season 15 reduced Lucifer, Michael to regular humans type petty guys whom the leads Sam and Dean could fool .... then they showed GOD to be even more petty and God was beaten by a regular smurf nephilim

Damn .... these writers should be tried in court for playing with the sentiments of the viewers for years and years by building a good show and then ending it in such disastrous ways .....Makes us feel like we wasted our time watching all that....

Facepalm !!!

 

[Deleted member 748597]

True.
The hype was massive, on par with what they created for Klaus in season 2, infact more, the build up was really really big.... Then killed him off so easily.

Nd then they created some temporary villains that are so worthless, Augustines? What was that? Lol ... Heretics were also shabby .... That Kai dude was cool, I liked his acting, had pure evil written all over him. Then they again brought in trash characters, Sirens, totally useless, that CADE was also nonsense, imagine a black dude (no offense to anyone black) playing the role of an ancient Psychic in europe .... Greek??? Doesn't even make sense. His plot was also lame,l the actor was talented but his character was killed by Stefan with some stupid stick that they shove into his chest ? ......LOL .... Powerful Godlike characters falling to such lame tricks.

Similar to the Night King in GOT, got killed by Aarya Stark's hand tricks ?? A supernatural guy with heightened senses killed off by a slow mortal ....

Most shows fail to deliver justice and end properly.

Originals had Klaus-Elijah kill each other, the worst of the plots ever

Even True Blood had Sookie Stackhouse stake her lover (for entire 7 seasons) Vampire Bill Compton at the end of season 7, so silly.

Supernatural in season 15 reduced Lucifer, Michael to regular humans type petty guys whom the leads Sam and Dean could fool .... then they showed GOD to be even more petty and God was beaten by a regular smurf nephilim

Damn .... these writers should be tried in court for playing with the sentiments of the viewers for years and years by building a good show and then ending it in such disastrous ways .....Makes us feel like we wasted our time watching all that....

Facepalm !!!

Yeah, that Night King moment was very similar to the Silas moment. One silly thing can ruin the entire show.

It's the money's fault. Most of those writers only care about money.

 

[NoleFam]

The post is concerning 2014 - 2016. Next time, try reading a post before responding to it.

Well then you are still incorrect. Lol. Murray and Federer were both Djokovic's rivals during that time. He played them 15 and 16 times each, played them both in 3 Slam finals, and faced them both in the final of the ATP finals, plus multiple Masters finals.

 

[Sunny014]

Yeah, that Night King moment was very similar to the Silas moment. One silly thing can ruin the entire show.

It's the money's fault. Most of those writers only care about money.

Night King Javelin Throws a spear 100 feet into the air and brings down a dragon and has heightened senses but a small girl jumps on him, lol

Total mockery of logic.

I guess the writers didn't have any other way of bringing him down, lack of creative ideas.

Plus they turned Queen Danny into a Mad Queen, more facepalm moment.

Maybe it was not a money issue, the budget was enormous and TRP was also enormous, they just failed bigtime with ideas... ?

 

[NoleFam]

So you think Djokovic played better in RG 2012 SF + F/2013/2016 than he did in RG 2011 overall?

I think he played well in all 4 tournaments but that he peaked higher in 12/13/16 than 11.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Night King Javelin Throws a spear 100 feet into the air and brings down a dragon and has heightened senses but a small girl jumps on him, lol

Total mockery of logic.

I guess the writers didn't have any other way of bringing him down, lack of creative ideas.

Plus they turned Queen Danny into a Mad Queen, more facepalm moment.

Maybe it was not a money issue, the budget was enormous and TRP was also enormous, they just failed bigtime with ideas... ?

If I remember correctly, Dan and Dave wanted to finish the show fast so they could focus on the Star Wars movies.

It's not that they had no ideas. It's more the fact that they didn't care.

 

[The_Order]

Your rivalry with the OP was a big thing back in my days as a reader

He chickened out and put me on ignore

 

[Sunny014]

If I remember correctly, Dan and Dave wanted to finish the show fast so they could focus on the Star Wars movies.

It's not that they had no ideas. It's more the fact that they didn't care.

Maybe, but they spoiled the last season in an otherwise brilliant show, possibly the GOAT show.
Only show that I remember having a viewer count increase every season from 1 till last. Perhaps Breaking Bad also had a constant uptrend .... no other show I guess....

 

[Kralingen]

Night King Javelin Throws a spear 100 feet into the air and brings down a dragon and has heightened senses but a small girl jumps on him, lol

Total mockery of logic.

I guess the writers didn't have any other way of bringing him down, lack of creative ideas.

Plus they turned Queen Danny into a Mad Queen, more facepalm moment.

Maybe it was not a money issue, the budget was enormous and TRP was also enormous, they just failed bigtime with ideas... ?

It’s easy to look clever and brilliant when you’re just slightly modifying George RR Martin’s work. When they had to think of ideas on their own, you get BS like the Night King (not even in novels) and the 7th season.

D&D are forever hacks in my book.

 

[Sunny014]

It’s easy to look clever and brilliant when you’re just slightly modifying George RR Martin’s work. When they had to think of ideas on their own, you get BS like the Night King (not even in novels) and the 7th season.

D&D are forever hacks in my book.

NIght King not in the novels ?
What was the plot all about ? No white walkers in the novels??

 

[Kralingen]

NIght King not in the novels ?
What was the plot all about ? No white walkers in the novels??

Well not in the novels the way he’s presented (I.e. as a main character leading the dead). He’s just a legend and doesn’t appear as a character in any of the books.

this was supposedly the masterstroke chance D&D took, re animating the Night King and giving the forces of the dead a leader. Only for him to be wiped out in just one episode and the entire storyline cut off just like that, lol. It was a good setup but they went Marvel in the 7th season. George RR would never.

 

[Sunny014]

Well not in the novels the way he’s presented (I.e. as a main character leading the dead). He’s just a legend and doesn’t appear as a character in any of the books.

this was supposedly the masterstroke chance D&D took, re animating the Night King and giving the forces of the dead a leader. Only for him to be wiped out in just one episode and the entire storyline cut off just like that, lol. It was a good setup but they went Marvel in the 7th season. George RR would never.

Actually Night King was shown well in the show (if we ignore the way he died).

He was shown as the progenitor of the white walkers and the entire dead, then they showed him raising the dead, the built his character by showing him sensing the three eyed raven spying on him via the flying crows, he could probably alter the weather too, it was shown well.

Only thing is that the War at Winterfell between the dead and living could have been stretched over 2 episodes or 3 episodes maybe, a lot more dead should have been shown, more tragedies should have been shown, like Ser Jorah dying and Danny crying profusely at his death, that sort of moments should have been there more, it should have been more subtle and in the second or third episode maybe Arya could have killed the Night King or maybe some different sort of way they could have presented it by showing that the war took great toll.

However what we saw that the Dothraki army clashed with the dead in darkness and then then there was silence and then the dead quickly arrived at winterfell and then when the war was over in the next episode the Dothraki was at full power in number, then when Danny nuked King's Landing with Drogon (loved that scene ... she roasted all those coackroaches - citizens of that filthy city) after that again Dothraki looked like they were in big number ...... That was a bit unclear.

Dothraki vs Dead and Unsullied vs Dead could have been shown in a more elaborate way, then another flaw they showed Euro Greyjoy shoot down Rhaegal from the sky and then later Drogon just entered the scene and destroyed like a 1000 ships.... then even the city defences it breached as it it was nothing ........ Those scenes made Rhaegal look so weak, how can something so powerful go down ? Was it just to create drama ? Like a match which could end in straight sets you deliberately take it to the 5th set and then bagel the opponent in the last set ..... Unrealistic nonsense.

The 8th season could have been a bit better, or else I think the plot of the Night King was good till Season 7.

 

[duaneeo]

Well then you are still incorrect. Lol. Murray and Federer were both Djokovic's rivals during that time.

Fine, but I don't know what point you're making.

From 2008 - 2010, Federer's main rivals were peak Nadal, and pre-peak/rising Djokovic and Murray.
From 2014 - 2016, Djokovic's main rivals were past-prime/declining Federer, on-last-leg Murray, and Wawrinka.

 

[abmk]

Response to what exactly? You are the mirror of the propagandists/********* you are arguing against. You are preaching that Federer is OBJECTIVELY better peak to peak on clay, hard, and grass than Novak, and that this is a fact,and anyone who dare to disagree is completely wrong. Alright then.

Personally, and with humility, I say I have no clue who is better between these two legends of the game at their peaks, it's too close to tell for me. But apparently you know the truth, you know that if Djokovic breaks all records it will be pointless as Federer has WITHOUT A DOUBT the highest peak. So the Big 3 era will end with an happy ending because no matter what can happen your favorite player will be the one and true GOAT.

This is what you want everyone to accept, you do not want a debate, you are preaching the truth, you are like the Djokovic, Nadal propagandists on this forum (and I don't like them at all too)

No, I'm saying its subjective. I didn't say its objective.
I already said Djoko is better on slow HC.

response to what I said in the OP.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic failed to beat Stan in '15 while Roger beat Del Potro in '09. If we're going to go along this line of discussion, what's the guarantee that Federer would beat crappola 2015 Nadal at RG the way Djokovic did? Can't beat '15 Stan if Fed can't make it to the final.

what's the guarantee that prime fed would beat crapola Nadal? well jeez, if you think he couldn't, you must think fed sucks on clay and can't beat Nadal on clay at all. Oh but wait, he beat significantly better versions of Nadal at Hamburg 07 and Madrid 09. Also took a well playing Nadal to the absolute brink in Rome 06 - closest anyone has got in a 5-setter.

RG'11 - One match in a tournament where lighter balls favored aggressive players at FO and Fed ended up beating Djokovic. Not much data to go on if we take "normal" conditions into account but given that Nalbandian and especially Davydenko troubled Federer in the 06-07 semis (both with solid backhands; Nikolay playing an extremely tight 3 set match as well), there's a high likelihood that Djokovic would so it as well since he's miles ahead of them with even better movement.

completely ignoring that fed was at a disadvantage physically at RG 11 compared to Djokovic. The lighter balls only compensated for that making it a fair prime to prime level match.
Nalby played damn well to get that set.
And Davy still didn't win that one set.

Am not saying prime fed would beat prime djoko in straights, am I?
It would be heavily contested, but I'd back fed.
Djoko still doesn't have a win at RG vs an opponent playing at the level of delpo RG 09 or himself in RG 11.

 

[abmk]

"Prime to prime at RG, Federer is better..."....LOL. The ironic thing is Federer had a better clay season in 2012 than 2011 leading up to RG but for some reason, the 2012 RG match doesn't matter.

Cumulative stats from both Djokovic/Federer matches at RG
Points won - Djokovic - 248 / Federer - 238
Games won - Djokovic - 40 / Federer - 33
Sets won - Djokovic - 4 / Federer - 3
Service games % won - Djokovic - 78.4% / Federer - 69.4%
Return games % won - Djokovic - 30.6% / Federer - 21.6%
Games dominance - Djokovic - 1.41 / Federer - 0.71

Madrid 12 was on blue clay, which you ignore.
Also fed lost a set in each of his R2-R4 matches in RG 2012 and was down 2 sets to love vs delpo before delpo was hampered.
In RG 11, fed didn't lose a set before the semi vs Djoko. Beat Wawa, Monfils in straights (better players than anyone he faced in R2-R4 in RG 2012)

fed played sh*t in the RG 2012 semi, worse than even the previous matches. served at like 56%, won like 56% of 1st serve points.
For a prime to prime comparision, RG 12 semi is close to irrelevant.

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

I think I'll start watching Vampire Diaries now

 

[abmk]

It's not 5 years; it's 5 tournaments. Can't overstate the sample size. 5 years worth of data would be ~90-100 tournaments.

But no, a 2% difference in hold% isn't that significant over a 5-tournament sample. Granted, it's a more significant difference for break%, but the overall difference would correspond roughly to a differential of ~1 match win. If you want to argue that Federer is 1 win better than Djokovic over a 5-year Wimbledon sample, then I'd agree with you. But that's not a big difference. 5 championships instead of 4 and a finals loss. Big deal .

Also, your analysis is incomplete if it doesn't adjust for quality of competition. I'm not saying Djokovic would come out "better" than Fed after such adjustments are made, but the point is that you've given an incomplete picture and have presented it as complete.

Its 2% in both serve and return %. That is significant.
As far as quality of competition thing is concerned, go ahead and try. It won't work in this case.

 

[abmk]

This place is enough of a mess at this point and this thread will only add to it with many of the comments and this bump up will only add to it.

what would you rather do against the ever increasing loony sh*t of Djoko crazies on this forum? Give up?
Reality check is necessary to keep remind atleast some of these loonies that they ain't got a free run here.

 

[abmk]

Man I don't actually have an answer to this one. I think both were better in 2011. The biggest difference is it was a wet tournament in 2012, the sky was overcast, and windy. Contrast to 2011 which is about as sunny and nice as any FO (maybe 2013) ever, with no wind and light balls.

I vehemently disagree with this 'Roger sucked in 2012' hypothesis though, he just made too many UEs but was playing pretty similarly to 2011 imo.

-Federer was up a break in the first set, choked it, Djokovic broke him twice and won the set.

-THEN Federer opened up the 2nd set up 3-0 (a double break), Djokovic broke him back to 3-3, Federer then went up a break AGAIN, but Djokovic fought back and won the set. Fed hit a ton of errors.

From there things got sunnier but both had just played grueling 5 setters in the QFs so 3rd set was pretty tepid and not much going on, Djokovic closed it out in 3.

What this tells us is that hypothetical matches are pure BS as there is no 'neutral conditions' and the previous match heavily weighs on a player's performance in the next match. Conditions and the little things can make all the difference in ATG vs. ATG matchups. However this is never taken into account.

Dude, fed won like 56% of his 1st serve points in the 2012 RG match. Broken 7 times in 3 sets. That's as sucky as it gets unless you are talking about a really old Fed.
In no other match on clay vs Djokovic has Fed won less than 70% of first serve points (including Rome 12 and Rome 15 - both of which he lost in straights)

 

[InsideOut900]

completely ignoring that fed was at a disadvantage physically at RG 11 compared to Djokovic. The lighter balls only compensated for that making it a fair prime to prime level match.
Nalby played damn well to get that set.
And Davy still didn't win that one set.

Am not saying prime fed would beat prime djoko in straights, am I?
It would be heavily contested, but I'd back fed.
Djoko still doesn't have a win at RG vs an opponent playing at the level of delpo RG 09 or himself in RG 11.

Maybe it would only happen against Nadal, but there are enough matches were Fed wasn't perfect,
like 2005 semi where he was spraying off the FH in sets 1 and 4, 2006 final, where he played considerably worse than pre-final, 2007 semi where he needed the chokes from Davydenko, 2007 final with the BPs.
Nevermind 2008 final or the nervous wreck he was against Haas in 2009.

Anyway, point is Fed would sometimes play worse in his prime than he did in the 2011 semi.
That's actually one of the two matches against elite opposition where he played every close moment to absolute perfection.
The other being 2009 final. And I guess he clutched Del Po too in the same tournament.

2011 semi was essentially a dice roll, Djokovic could have just as easily won in 4 if they replayed all those close moments again and again. Especially considering how he had set 1 on his racket. It's normal to finally have a slip after winning 41 matches and that was like the most "epic" and interesting way to end his streak.

 

[abmk]

Maybe it would only happen against Nadal, but there are enough matches were Fed wasn't perfect,
like 2005 semi where he was spraying off the FH in sets 1 and 4, 2006 final, where he played considerably worse than pre-final, 2007 semi where he needed the chokes from Davydenko, 2007 final with the BPs.
Nevermind 2008 final or the nervous wreck he was against Haas in 2009.

Anyway, point is Fed would sometimes play worse in his prime than he did in the 2011 semi.
That's actually one of the two matches against elite opposition where he played every close moment to absolute perfection.
The other being 2009 final. And I guess he clutched Del Po too in the same tournament.

2011 semi was essentially a dice roll, Djokovic could have just as easily won in 4 if they replayed all those close moments again and again. Especially considering how he had set 1 on his racket. It's normal to finally have a slip after winning 41 matches and that was like the most "epic" and interesting way to end his streak.

I'd say 6-4 to fed at RG, prime to prime.
RG 11 semi, fed went 4/25 on BPs. Granted Djokovic saved majority of them with good play, but fed could still have been better.
RG 2009 semi, fed had glimmer of hope at breaking delpo at the starting stages of the semi, but didn't. was outplayed after that. was outplayed even more in set3.

 

[Kralingen]

Dude, fed won like 56% of his 1st serve points in the 2012 RG match. Broken 7 times in 3 sets. That's as sucky as it gets unless you are talking about a really old Fed.
In no other match on clay vs Djokovic has Fed won less than 70% of first serve points (including Rome 12 and Rome 15 - both of which he lost in straights)

Yeah it was such a weird match, in my eyes RG 2012 is this tournament dropped from aliens on us when you also consider the fact Tsonga/DelPo pushed both players to 5 in the previous round. Actually Tsonga undoubtedly played better than Federer (though he has few of these, Wimbledon 11, AO 08 spring to mind). And then the final.. Djokovic DFing on BP and MP lol but then also somehow winning 8 games in a row and likely running away with the final until the stoppage happened vs Nadal? It’s tough to evaluate.

The point I’m making though is we can’t excuse everything. Sometimes there’s going to be a rain delay and balls/court will be heavier under overcast weather. I feel similarly about USO 2012, felt like every condition was against Djokovic’s favor in terms of rest and conditions, but I still felt he missed easy opportunities and Murray deserved the win anyway.

What do you think about the Rome win in 2009 Djokovic had vs FO winning Federer and the 2006 MC match (63,26,63) he played vs BOAT clay Federer? Those actually reflect pretty favorably for Djoko in terms of peak Federer, though they are Bo3, but the two didn’t meet at RG. I don’t usually like to use Bo3 as evidence but given those are Fed’s two best clay seasons I feel like they’re decent cases for the peak to peak being a neutral matchup. Same with Federer’s 3 HC wins in 2015 over Novak, class shining through in their opponent’s best season ever.

 

[abmk]

Yeah it was such a weird match, in my eyes RG 2012 is this tournament dropped from aliens on us when you also consider the fact Tsonga/DelPo pushed both players to 5 in the previous round. Actually Tsonga undoubtedly played better than Federer (though he has few of these, Wimbledon 11, AO 08 spring to mind). And then the final.. Djokovic DFing on BP and MP lol but then also somehow winning 8 games in a row and likely running away with the final until the stoppage happened vs Nadal? It’s tough to evaluate.

The point I’m making though is we can’t excuse everything. Sometimes there’s going to be a rain delay and balls/court will be heavier under overcast weather. I feel similarly about USO 2012, felt like every condition was against Djokovic’s favor in terms of rest and conditions, but I still felt he missed easy opportunities and Murray deserved the win anyway.

What do you think about the Rome win in 2009 Djokovic had vs FO winning Federer and the 2006 MC match (63,26,63) he played vs BOAT clay Federer? Those actually reflect pretty favorably for Djoko in terms of peak Federer, though they are Bo3, but the two didn’t meet at RG. I don’t usually like to use Bo3 as evidence but given those are Fed’s two best clay seasons I feel like they’re decent cases for the peak to peak being a neutral matchup. Same with Federer’s 3 HC wins in 2015 over Novak, class shining through in their opponent’s best season ever.

I wasn't talking about conditions wrt to RG 2012 match. Just that fed was nowhere near decent on red clay that year - be it Rome or RG.
Was worse at RG than at Rome even before the semi. Lost a set in each of his R2-R4 matches. down 2 sets to love vs delpo.
Was even worse in the semi than in the previous matches.

Of course Tsonga played significantly better in RG 2012 QF vs djoko than fed at that RG.

MC 2006 was a 1st round match for fed. lost a set, but wasn't anywhere close to losing. don't think he bothered much about that.
MC 2008 is far more relevant than MC 2006 anyways. It was a semi. Both were playing fairly well at the very least. Fed was up a set and break. Djoko couldn't take the beating and retired with umm, a sore throat.
Rome 2009 was Fed frittering it away to an extent with Djoko fighting back.

prime to prime. I'd take fed at RG, Hamburg/Madrid
Djoko at Rome
MC - their prime levels are similar, I'd take fed in a h2h match though.

 

[beard]

1. Federer USO 07 final vs Cllic USO 14 final
2. Baggy AO 06 final vs Murray AO 11 final
3. Agassi AO 04 vs Nadal AO 09
4. Hewitt USO 04 final vs Nadal AO 19 final
5. Federer Wim 12 final vs Djokovic Wim 18 final
6. Djokovic Wim 15 final vs Federer Wim 17 final
7. Murray AO 12 vs Wawrinka AO 13

Put the winner and number of sets in bolded.

Sonny PS 5 "Imaginary Fedal world"... Level pro... Enjoy playing...

 

[Nadal_Django]

1. Federer USO 07 final vs Cllic USO 14 final
2. Baggy AO 06 final vs Murray AO 11 final
3. Agassi AO 04 vs Nadal AO 09
4. Hewitt USO 04 final vs Nadal AO 19 final
5. Federer Wim 12 final vs Djokovic Wim 18 final
6. Djokovic Wim 15 final vs Federer Wim 17 final
7. Murray AO 12 vs Wawrinka AO 13

Put the winner and number of sets in bolded.

What about:
1. Roddick WB 04 Vs Fed WB 08
2. Hewitt 04 USO Vs Djokovic USO 10
3. Roddick 06 USO Vs Medvedev USO 19
4. Soderling FO 09 Vs Djokovic 12 FO Djokovic
5. Safin 05 AO Vs Federer AO 09
6. Roddick 07 USO Vs Djokovic 13 USO
7. Davydenko 06 Vs Delpo 2017 USO

 

[RS]

1. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 14 QF
2. Federer USO 07 QF vs Djokovic USO 11 SF
3. Roddick USO 06 final vs Thiem AO 20 final
4. Roddick USO 07 QF vs Nadal USO 10 final
5. Safin AO 04 QF vs Wawrinka AO 13
6. Safin AO 05 SF vs Federer AO 07 final
7. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Roddick Wim 04 final
8. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Del Potro Wim 13 SF
9. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Dasco AO 09 SF

Put the winners and sets in bolded.

 

[Kralingen]

What about:
1. Roddick WB 04 Vs Fed WB 08 nope not touching
2. Hewitt 04 USO Vs Djokovic USO 10 Djokovic 4
3. Roddick 06 USO Vs Medvedev USO 19 lol Roddick
4. Soderling FO 09 Vs Djokovic 12 FO Soderling in 5 but, in 2012 conditions, Djoko prob wins
5. Safin 05 AO Vs Federer AO 09 Safin 5
6. Roddick 07 USO Vs Djokovic 13 USO Anddick (QF) beats him in 4/5
7. Davydenko 06 Vs Delpo 2017 USO no idea

Admittedly pulling this out of my ass on some as I am not super familiar with these.

1. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 14 QF Someone in 5. Agassi and Djoko both choked a bit in these matches.
2. Federer USO 07 QF vs Djokovic USO 11 SF
Federer in 5 (unless he gets 40-15 lol)
3. Roddick USO 06 final vs Thiem AO 20 final
Roddick in 4/5
4. Roddick USO 07 QF vs Nadal USO 10 final
Rafa
5. Safin AO 04 QF vs Wawrinka AO 13 would love to see this. Safin in 5?
6. Safin AO 05 SF vs Federer AO 07 final either Fed in 4 or Safin in 5
7. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Roddick Wim 04 final Hewitt in 5? I don’t know
8. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Del Potro Wim 13 SF
Del Potro in 5 bc he plays Rafa well
9. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Dasco AO 09 SF
Agassi in 5
Put the winners and sets in bolded.

these were hard and I am definitely wrong on a few.

Djokovic’s weird US Open struggles is probably the one thing that keeps him from having GOAT resume in my eyes. But they are inexcusable.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

1. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 14 QF
2. Federer USO 07 QF vs Djokovic USO 11 SF
3. Roddick USO 06 final vs Thiem AO 20 final
4. Roddick USO 07 QF vs Nadal USO 10 final
5. Safin AO 04 QF vs Wawrinka AO 13
6. Safin AO 05 SF vs Federer AO 07 final
7. Hewitt Wim 02 final vs Roddick Wim 04 final
8. Nadal Wim 06 final vs Del Potro Wim 13 SF
9. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Dasco AO 09 SF

Put the winners and sets in bolded.

tie
Fedr
Rodk
Nadl
Safn
Fedr
tie
tie
Agsi

 

[RS]

1. Federer YEC 04 final vs Djokovic YEC 13 final
2. Murray Wim 12 final vs Federer Wim 17 final
3. Coria Rome 05 final vs Wawrinka RG 15 final
4. Hewitt RG 06 vs Murray RG 15
5. Roddick Wim 04 final vs Djokovic Wim 18 final
6. Nadal Wim 11 final vs Federer Wim 15 final
7. Soderling RG 10 QF vs Djokovic RG 21 QF
8. Roddick USO 03 final vs Djokovic AO 21 final
9. Gonzo AO 07 SF vs Berdych AO 12 QF
10. Federer USO 08 final vs Djokovic AO 19 final

Winner and sets in bolded.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Madrid 12 was on blue clay, which you ignore.
Also fed lost a set in each of his R2-R4 matches in RG 2012 and was down 2 sets to love vs delpo before delpo was hampered.
In RG 11, fed didn't lose a set before the semi vs Djoko. Beat Wawa, Monfils in straights (better players than anyone he faced in R2-R4 in RG 2012)

fed played sh*t in the RG 2012 semi, worse than even the previous matches. served at like 56%, won like 56% of 1st serve points.
For a prime to prime comparision, RG 12 semi is close to irrelevant.

Basically Federer wins -> relevant
Federer loses -> past prime, old, irrelevant

 

[RS]

Basically Federer wins -> relevant
Federer loses -> past prime, old, irrelevant

Join in the fantasy matches.

 

[Gonzo_style]

This might be the most biased OP ever on TTW

 

[abmk]

This might be the most biased OP ever on TTW

coming from the fanbase which has nutjobs stating:
"Is djokovic better than federer on every surface" or sth like that
that's hilarious

plus when you got nothing to actually counter what is said, this is stuff done by that same fanbase.
This thread is based on reality, though it is subjective to an extent.
A little biased at best.