Federer game is more complete than Djokovic

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Contrary to the myth that Djokovic has the most complete game... Federers bane is simply his single handed backhand which is unreliable and causes consistency issues or breakdown under pressure. 2 handed backhands are much more reliable and consistent with another arm to help the racquet.

Federer is better at literally every type of stroke except flat/topspin backhand.

Serve - Federer
Forehand - Federer
Volleys - Federer
Overhead - Federer
Slice backhand - Federer

No one would even disagree with any of that right? So the only thing Djokovic is better at is backhand and because of that much better at return of serve. He's also just a super consistent reliable player in general which gets you great results in tennis

But Federer clearly has the most complete game

 

[The Guru]

username checks out

 

[MurraysMetalHip]

I’m no Djokovic fan, but this is nonsense.

 

[tennis_error]

You need only one hole, and Fed has one... His pretty backhand.

 

[Hitman]

What about the game between the ears?

 

[3loudboys]

Only looking at the technical and aesthetics. In terms of tactical, physical and mental very debateable - has there been a more clutch physically and mentally tough player than Djokovic? Strong argument that ROS is the most important shot in the game and Novak is one the best if not the best of all time. I’d also argue that there isn’t much between them on serve and forehand. Roger was clearly ahead in both against a young Novak but he has improved them massively to being comparable.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

What about the game between the ears?

Federer is a very intelligent player too, I guess they both are... no clear edge there?

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

You need only one hole, and Fed has one... His pretty backhand.

True thats why Djokovic is getting more results

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

I’m no Djokovic fan, but this is nonsense.

So which of those strokes do you disagree with?

 

[Silverbullet96]

To be fair, if you have to remove the BH to say Federer's game is more complete, then what's the point ?
I'm not a Djokovic fan at all but he has the more complete game to me, at least in the current & previous decade. This is just no era for a single handed backhand.

 

[Hitman]

What about drop shot?

 

[MurraysMetalHip]

So which of those strokes do you disagree with?

The enormous hole in Federer’s BH, which led to his opponents targeting it constantly. You can’t ignore/exclude it when you’re stating who the most complete player is, because it doesn’t represent the full picture.

 

[skaj]

Federer lacks a good (topspin)backhand, Djokovic net game. If we consider the fact that modern tennis is all about the baseline, he's not that much more complete.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

To be fair, if you have to remove the BH to say Federer's game is more complete, then what's the point ?
I'm not a Djokovic fan at all but he has the more complete game to me, at least in the current & previous decade. This is just no era for a single handed backhand.

Because he's better at 5 out of 6 of the other strokes? Thats the definition of more complete

 

[Fabresque]

I don’t think an individual could be more wrong. Total nonsensical thread.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Peak Federer is GOAT.

 

[initialize]

OP is definitely correct although his profile is somewhat of a caricature of Fed.

people need to rewatch some old highlights of Fed… he’s by far the most complete player tennis has ever seen

 

[Fabresque]

Federer is a very intelligent player too, I guess they both are... no clear edge there?

There is a massive gap between Djokodal and Federer in terms of the mental game. MASSIVE. Plenty of examples of this too. Case closed.

 

[Rally]

To be fair, if you have to remove the BH to say Federer's game is more complete, then what's the point ?
I'm not a Djokovic fan at all but he has the more complete game to me, at least in the current & previous decade. This is just no era for a single handed backhand.

I think 2017 AO - Miami Roger's play as well as Wawrinka's entire career showed that the single handed backhand can be a dominant force. For Roger specifically when he was driving through contact with conviction on his backhands with his followthrough ending fully extended high and firmly on the right side of his body (unlike his followthrough where the racquet head is pointing left as if he were using a driving half volley motion), his backhand dominated the tour. I think if the tables were turned and Roger was the young kid on the block who grew up in the juniors era of big head sizes and polyester strings, he probably would have spent more time tuning his backhand into the lethal weapon we saw briefly in 2017 rather than primarily a finesse shot to set up his inside out forehand. Granted this is all conjecture, but the indisputable fact is that Roger and Wawrinka have proved that one handers can outduel two handers frequently enough for it to be a fair fight.

 

[Tennfan123]

Agreed. Close thread and declare Federer second goat after Nadal.

 

[Kralingen]

Fed's problem is that he was born too early and we didn't get to see peak Fed against old Djokovic the way we did with Djoker vs. Fed.

I promise it would not be pretty.

 

[TheAssassin]

What about the game between the ears?

Federer has left the chat lol...

 

[The Fedfather]

Federer's game was more complete and versatile. One, he was a better player at the net. Sure, this is a baseline dominated era, but net play is still used, and it does give players more tactical options when they are capable of using it.

Two, if we take variations of separate strokes (serve, BH, FH), Federer had that mixing up power dialed to the max. At his best he was switching between offense and defense like it was nothing. Novak could pull that off but never quite as easily as Roger.

Roger's BH overall is a considerable flaw in the comparison between them. That and Djokovic also gets more points for his return. However, Roger's overall advantage is bigger IMO. He'd have easier time using his set of skills across different eras as opposed to Novak with his baseline focused game.

 

[Hitman]

Federer has left the chat lol...

Innocent question. Right?

 

[initialize]

Federer has left the chat lol...

Yeah, because we all know Djokovic is super intelligent with his views on medicine, vaccinations, magical healing water and pyramids and stuff

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

What about drop shot?

Thats a good question I cant remember enough examples to compare

 

[The Fedfather]

The enormous hole in Federer’s BH, which led to his opponents targeting it constantly. You can’t ignore/exclude it when you’re stating who the most complete player is, because it doesn’t represent the full picture.

Enormous? Targeting and targeting successfully are two different things. Opponents were targeting Federer's BH because going to the FH was blatantly stupid.

 

[initialize]

Enormous? Targeting and targeting successfully are two different things. Opponents were targeting Federer's BH because going to the FH was blatantly stupid.

Exactly. The only person who successfully “targeted” Fed’s backhand was Nadal.

everyone else was simply avoiding his forehand since it’s the GOAT shot of tennis history

 

[Otacon]

What about the game between the ears?

I've heard many tennis pros say how frustrating it can be when your opponent reads your serve and starts returning almost everything you throw at them. It would create a bit of a mental block, especially for guys whose serve plays a big part in their game.

Is this the secret of Djokovic's mental superiority over his opponents?

 

[Hitman]

Thats a good question I cant remember enough examples to compare

What about lobs?

 

[Hitman]

I've heard many tennis pros say how frustrating it can be when your opponent reads your serve and starts returning almost everything you throw at them. It would create a bit of a mental block, especially for guys whose serve plays a big part in their game.

Is this the secret of Djokovic's mental superiority over his opponents?

Well it worked for Agassi against Becker.

 

[Kralingen]

Enormous? Targeting and targeting successfully are two different things. Opponents were targeting Federer's BH because going to the FH was blatantly stupid.

Well and because it was the world's worst shot, as the Intelligentsia will tell you.

It was so bad that it fell apart constantly (for approximately one and a half sets in the '05 USO F and when playing Nadal on high bouncing clay in the RG '08 final)

 

[Rally]

Enormous? Targeting and targeting successfully are two different things. Opponents were targeting Federer's BH because going to the FH was blatantly stupid.

Also important to note that the backhand only weakened when Roger had lost a couple steps by 2011. His feet couldn't reliably get him to the right position to load up on the backhand anymore, and then the PS90's limitations became glaringly obvious.

 

[skaj]

Thats a good question I cant remember enough examples to compare

Not really, Federer has one of the best drop shots ever.

 

[Otacon]

Well it worked for Agassi against Becker.

Agassi, I believe, was able to read the German's serve thanks to a tic that the latter was making with his tongue.

 

[Hitman]

Agassi, I believe, was able to read the German's serve thanks to a tic that the latter was making with his tongue.

That is true according to AA.

 

[TheAssassin]

Yeah, because we all know Djokovic is super intelligent with his views on medicine, vaccinations, magical healing water and pyramids and stuff

Game between the ears ---> vaccines and pyramids.

What a comeback, got me good lol. What's going to be the final blow, the Rolex advertisements?

 

[chjtennis]

Federer is a transition from classical to modern style. His BH looks classical and elegant, but it is a heavily modified version compared to real classical BH like Edberg's(perfect classical BH) or Becker's(his BH was also very modern by the standard of his days. Becker does a lot of work himself with his BH rather than just timing it). OHBH always will have innate weakness unless the player somehow can generate immense power and topspin like Wawrinka, who's a bit of a freak that can generate so much power and spin as if he was using 2HBH. Wawa and Thiem are real physical freak in that sense, and Federer's BH was in between their style and classical style. Federer's BH swing, so pleasing to the eyes, generates a lot of topspin naturally with its path, whereas Wawa and Thiem puts in extra effort for extra power and topspin. Federer also times the ball immaculately and uses opponent's pace to get the power on his BH. It is definitely an evolution from older generation, and probably suitable for most people who are not as strong as Wawa and Thiem. Anyway, Federer's BH will always be one weakness opponents can exploit, but you'll have to be on the level of Djokovic or Nadal to do so. As a player with one handed BH, Federer is the ultimate complete player as anyone can be. Djokovic is the ultimate complete 2HBH player. At their respective peak, these two make absolute 50:50 matchup IMHO. You could argue all day one is better than the other, but one thing is certain and that is they are about as even as it can be at their peak.

 

[Rally]

Federer is a transition from classical to modern style. His BH looks classical and elegant, but it is a heavily modified version compared to real classical BH like Edberg's(perfect classical BH) or Becker's(his BH was also very modern by the standard of his days. Becker does a lot of work himself with his BH rather than just timing it). OHBH always will have innate weakness unless the player somehow can generate immense power and topspin like Wawrinka, who's a bit of a freak that can generate so much power and spin as if he was using 2HBH. Wawa and Thiem are real physical freak in that sense, and Federer's BH was in between their style and classical style. Federer's BH swing, so pleasing to the eyes, generates a lot of topspin naturally with its path, whereas Wawa and Thiem puts in extra effort for extra power and topspin. Federer also times the ball immaculately and uses opponent's pace to get the power on his BH. It is definitely an evolution from older generation, and probably suitable for most people who are not as strong as Wawa and Thiem. Anyway, Federer's BH will always be one weakness opponents can exploit, but you'll have to be on the level of Djokovic or Nadal to do so. As a player with one handed BH, Federer is the ultimate complete player as anyone can be. Djokovic is the ultimate complete 2HBH player. At their respective peak, these two make absolute 50:50 matchup IMHO. You could argue all day one is better than the other, but one thing is certain and that is they are about as even as it can be at their peak.

That's not necessarily because Roger is weaker than Stan. Roger's technique is the culprit. He doesn't drive through the stroke by opening up his shoulders whereas Stan does; Roger almost always finishes his stroke with his chest pointing completely left instead of more forward and facing the net. That leaves off noticeable amount of pace and spin on his shots.

 

[chjtennis]

That's not necessarily because Roger is weaker than Stan. Roger's technique is the culprit. He doesn't drive through the stroke by opening up his shoulders whereas Stan does; Roger almost always finishes his stroke with his chest pointing completely left instead of more forward and facing the net. That leaves off noticeable amount of pace and spin on his shots.

Federer can time the ball better than anyone and that's his strength. Also, look at Stan's upper body. So thick and strong. It's no shame to be able to time the ball with BH better than anyone in history. Federer's BH used to have plenty of pace, but the way Wawa generates pace from the back of the court with his BH is just out of this world stuff. He beat Djokovic and Nadal at slam finals with it a few times.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Djokovic has got flawless baseline game. People confuse it with complete game. Djokovic sucks on net. His slice is just average.

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

Roger had a complete repertoire, but not an impregnable game.

Novak has a complete and in-exploitable modern game but doesn't boast of the same forecourt prowess.

And then there's the mental part....I think the results speak for themselves.

I should say though that this is a forced comparison. The two are far more alike than casual observers care to admit. What say you @Hitman?

As for the agenda of this thread, that's apparent as day.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Djokovic has got flawless baseline game. People confuse it with complete game. Djokovic sucks on net. His slice is just average.

Exactly

 

[Rally]

Federer can time the ball better than anyone and that's his strength. Also, look at Stan's upper body. So thick and strong. It's no shame to be able to time the ball with BH better than anyone in history. Federer's BH used to have plenty of pace, but the way Wawa generates pace from the back of the court with his BH is just out of this world stuff. He beat Djokovic and Nadal at slam finals with it a few times.

I agree that Roger's timing is better than anyone, but I still think that he slapped his backhand to his detriment when he could have used a little more shoulder to turn it into a vicious weapon on neutral balls. He still would have been able to hit his half volleys and angles on the run, but the added power from a solid drive would have made him less vulnerable off the backhand wing in neutral rallies.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Who broke down Fed's backhand other than Nadal? Backhand was a weakness against one player. Does that make it a profound weakness? I don't really think that's how it works. How many guys not named Djokovic have a positive H2H against Nadal (who have played him more than 1 or 2 times)? Of those guys, against how many does the crosscourt forehand game plan work? I mean, this isn't rocket science...

 

[RaulRamirez]

Fed's problem is that he was born too early and we didn't get to see peak Fed against old Djokovic the way we did with Djoker vs. Fed.

I promise it would not be pretty.

But it balances out, as primish, peakish Fed also got not-quite-ready Novak. I don't want to delve too deeply here, as we've both seen every conceivable argument and counter. I truly think these factors balance out over careers, and it's just that these guys have had such lonnnng careers.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Roger had a complete repertoire, but not an impregnable game.

Novak has a complete and in-exploitable modern game but doesn't boast of the same forecourt prowess.

And then there's the mental part....I think the results speak for themselves.

I should say though that this is a forced comparison. The two are far more alike than casual observers care to admit. What say you @Hitman?

As for the agenda of this thread, that's apparent as day.

Agreed but theres no secret agenda other than correcting the idea that Djokovic has a more complete game

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

Djokovic has got flawless baseline game. People confuse it with complete game. Djokovic sucks on net. His slice is just average.

I think its a matter of how you slice and dice the differences.

He isn't as capable at net because he doesn't need to be. This was true for Roger too until the early part of the last decade; he hired Edberg so he could make that transition to shorten points.

But I think unlike any other current player, Novak is very much capable of taking the ball on the rise and not giving ground from the baseline just like Roger.

The completeness of his game is more about the mental + baseline game + serve and I think he can add more elements even at this stage of his career.

 

[topspn]

Fed has the most natural ability of any part of the game bar none

 

[Curtennis]

Contrary to the myth that Djokovic has the most complete game... Federers bane is simply his single handed backhand which is unreliable and causes consistency issues or breakdown under pressure. 2 handed backhands are much more reliable and consistent with another arm to help the racquet.

Federer is better at literally every type of stroke except flat/topspin backhand.

Serve - Federer
Forehand - Federer
Volleys - Federer
Overhead - Federer
Slice backhand - Federer

No one would even disagree with any of that right? So the only thing Djokovic is better at is backhand and because of that much better at return of serve. He's also just a super consistent reliable player in general which gets you great results in tennis

But Federer clearly has the most complete game

How about return of serve? Possibly the next most important metric after serve.