Fun take: 2007 Nadal was better than 2011 Nadal on all surfaces when healthy

[RS]

Two very underrated matches between Nadal and Djokovic were Queens 08 and Madrid 09. Madrid 09 especially was some of the best tennis these guys have ever played against each other, kind of like Miami 11. Djokovic was prime but not peak in 09 but his ferocity and will to beat Nadal helped him generate a level close to his later peaks. The match effectively ended Nadal’s movement peak forever (movement to backhand side became a weakness thereafter), and set Djokovic back for more than a year (he said as much in an interview).

Only similar event I can recall between two players was RG17 between Murray and Stan which seems to have broken both players

Madrid is well talked about. Queens was amazing i agree with and underlooked. It is overshadowed by AO 12 and RG 13 etc etc.

 

[mike danny]

Fail thread... Without Djokovic, 2011 Nadal has a potential GOAT season like his 2010 one. 2007 Nadal was only better on clay

For a Nadal fan, you don't know much about him.

 

[aman92]

For a Nadal fan, you don't know much about him.

Why's that?... He was definitely better and a more complete player in 2011 especially on hard courts. On clay yes 2007 trumps it because he practically retrieved everything during that time and had endless stamina. But his groundstrokes were just so much more better in 2011

 

[StrongRule]

Why's that?... He was definitely better and a more complete player in 2011 especially on hard courts. On clay yes 2007 trumps it because he practically retrieved everything during that time and had endless stamina. But his groundstrokes were just so much more better in 2011

Nadal in IW 2007 played better than in any hardcourt tournament in 2011. More consistent doesn't mean his peak level was higher. And I already gave you a long list of players who beat Nadal on hardcourt in 2011, which you simply ignored. If anything, the only tournaments on hardcourt where he went far in 2011 were IW, Miami and USO.

 

[RS]

And yeah it is true Nadal might have won 3 slams without Djokovic in 2011. That is just because there is nobody close to him on clay, since he owned the match up with Federer especialy psychologically at that point, since he also owned the match up with Murray especialy in big matches around then, and despite people crying about the weak era of 2004-2009 when Federer/Nadal were on top the depth and number of dangerous floaters after the favorites was so much more than, and has only kept declining since then.

I don’t think people complain of that being weak.
I think it’s 2003-2006/2010 and 2014 to now which get the most critical talk of weak competition.

 

[JaoSousa]

From RG 2010 to RG 2012 Nadal wins 8 slams out of 9 without Djokovic.

And Fedr wins 2 calendar slams without Ned

 

[aman92]

Nadal in IW 2007 played better than in any hardcourt tournament in 2011. More consistent doesn't mean his peak level was higher. And I already gave you a long list of players who beat Nadal on hardcourt in 2011, which you simply ignored. If anything, the only tournaments on hardcourt where he went far in 2011 were IW, Miami and USO.

If not for djokovic, he was winning 3 slams and 5 masters in 2011

 

[StrongRule]

If not for djokovic, he was winning 3 slams and 5 masters in 2011

Even if that's true (which it isn't, Federer could very well beat him in USO), so WHAT? It doesn't mean Nadal was playing at his best level all year. Did you see how he played in USO 2010 and 2013 finals? Do you really believe he played on the same level in USO 2011 final where he was broken 11 times? And no, Djokovic wasn't absolutely terrible in USO 2010 and 2013, don't even go there.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Clay- Nadal 2007 no contest at all. Although both were weaker than 2008, 2010, or 2012. 2011 might have been the weakest Nadal of clay of 2005-2013.

Grass- I would go with Nadal 2007 for sure, but this is closer.

Hard courts- This could be debated but I would go with Nadal 2011. He was still super easy to be hit off the court by a lowish ranked big hitter on hard courts in 2007, very hard for a non true elite to ever beat in 2011, in fact most times only Djokovic could do it.

Nadal suffered plenty of early losses post-Wimbledon 2011, USO was the only exception among top tournaments. The only way Nadal's 2011 HC season can be analysed as better than his 2007 HC season is if that USO final is given particular importance, in which case it *is* all about the slams after all.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

If not for djokovic, he was winning 3 slams and 5 masters in 2011

If not for Djokerer, Nadal might have hypothetically won the CYGS in 2019 - do you seriously think he's at his peak now??

 

[StrongRule]

If not for Djokerer, Nadal might have hypothetically won the CYGS in 2019 - do you seriously think he's at his peak now??

I will not be surprised if he does.

 

[JaoSousa]

I mean, you can always do the what if scenario...

Fed winning 4 Slams, 6 Masters, and, 15 titles total in 2006 if not for Rafa.

 

[RS]

I will not be surprised if he does.

He doesn’t read his other thread on Nadal and the best USO forms. He ranked 2010 top. He ranked 2013 third ahead of 2017/19 by far.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Even if that's true (which it isn't, Federer could very well beat him in USO), so WHAT? It doesn't mean Nadal was playing at his best level this year. Did you see how he played in USO 2010 and 2013 finals? Go tell me with a straight face he played on the same level in USO 2011 final where he was broken 11 times. And no, Djokovic wasn't absolutely terrible in USO 2010 and 2013, don't even go there.

In retrospect, it looks worse than the 2006 final (between Federer and Roddick). Both were destroyed in the first set, but Roddick took the second and had a real if small chance to go 2-1 up (if he converts BP and then holds for the rest of the set, unlikely but imagineable), while Nadal lost the second too and was fighting for dear life just to take one set, and then both were destroyed again in the fourth set anyway. Hilarious really.

 

[RS]

I don't remember all the tournaments exactly, but he was totally clobbered by an on fire Gonzalez at the 2007 Australian Open, while I can't see Nadal of 2011 falling that easily. He lost to Ferrer while injured at a hard court slam in both 2007 and 2011 so that is close to a wash, except Ferrer was a much more established solid top 6 player in 2011 than in 2007. He did have a number of early losses in both years, but I think he did win Indian Wells in 2007 which is an edge over 2011, but he didn't face Federer or anyone that noteable besides Roddick in the semis. Still I would say he was a tougher opponent on hard courts in general in 2011 than 2007.

Ferrer was similar in 2007 and 2011. Probably his 3rd and 4th best seasons behind 2012 and 2013.

 

[StrongRule]

I don't remember all the tournaments exactly, but he was totally clobbered by an on fire Gonzalez at the 2007 Australian Open, while I can't see Nadal of 2011 falling that easily. He lost to Ferrer while injured at a hard court slam in both 2007 and 2011 so that is close to a wash, except Ferrer was a much more established solid top 6 player in 2011 than in 2007. He did have a number of early losses in both years, but I think he did win Indian Wells in 2007 which is an edge over 2011, but he didn't face Federer and beat a baby pre contender Djokovic which isn't that impressive. Still I would say he was a tougher opponent on hard courts in general in 2011 than 2007.

Djokovic who right after that played some of the best tennis of his life to win Miami. Yes, not impressive at all.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Still I would say he was a tougher opponent on hard courts in general in 2011 than 2007.

Again, this doesn't make sense considering the results, because one tournament (USO) doesn't set a general trend. Say the Ferrer injury losses were a wash, IW-Miami as well (IW better 07, Miami 11). That leaves 07 with strong Canada (SF Djokovic), Paris (F Nalbandian) and YEC (SF Federer) performances, while all 2011 gets is the USO (F Djokovic). 2011 can only be better if the USO final outweighs the rest.

 

[alexio]

. The only way Nadal's 2011 HC season can be analysed as better than his 2007 HC season is if that USO final is given particular importance,

miami 07 vs djokovic 3-6 4-6.. miami 11 vs beast mode djokovic 6-4 3-6 6-7

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

miami 07 vs djokovic 3-6 4-6.. 11 vs beast mode djokovic 6-4 3-6 6-7

True, and cancelled by IW. 2007 beast mode Nadal straight sets everyone dropping serve just 3 times, including Djokovic (1st time finalist but decent). 2011 has a super soft draw (three qualifiers, comebacking karlobot ranked out of top 200, comebacking #90 delpo who hadn't yet regained his movement fully), takes the first vs Djo but forget how to serve and loses badly in the end. I'm not going to credit Djokovic for Nadal barely making 30% of his first serves in the last two sets.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

miami 07 vs djokovic 3-6 4-6.. miami 11 vs beast mode djokovic 6-4 3-6 6-7

Also, next time before you reply to me, show a little respect and check my other comments in the thread to see if I may have already addressed the point you want to make, so I wouldn't be compelled to repeat myself.

 

[alexio]

Also, next time before you reply to me, show a little respect and check my other comments in the thread to see if I may have already addressed the point you want to make, so I wouldn't be compelled to repeat myself.

ok, as you wish your majesty

 

[ForehandRF]

Although I voted 07 on clay and grass and 11 on hc, it's not that simple because Djokovic, especially when he played his best tennis, was better than Federer in the matchup with Nadal.

 

[Mike Sams]

I'll take the polar opposite choice. 2011 Nadal didn't lose a match to anyone other than the peak version of Djokovic (which is understandable given how insanely good Djoker was in 2011). Meanwhile 07 Nadal got crushed by Federer (got bageled too).
2007 Nadal would get crushed on HC, no questions. He never got close to anything like making the USO final in 2011.
On grass both versions lost early in Queen's and made the Wimbledon final. This one is pretty much dead even as Nadal gave a bigger fight in 07 final (although Federer wasn't quite as scary in 07 final as he was in 06 or as Djokovic was in 11), but had more.difficulty in the early rounds. I'd give this a perfect 50/50, which means 2011 Nadal absolutely could win a Wimby final vs his 2007 self.

Nadal of USO 2019 would annhilate Nadal of 2007 USO like a bug. There is no comparison. And Nadal 2011 would destroy 2007 Nadal too.

To say Nadal played god level tennis in AO 2019 is a joke and you know it. But oh well, you are a person who never saw what is peak Nadal (in 2009 AO for example) and probably wasn't even born back then.

I still have over 400 of Nadal's matches from 2005 onward stored on VHS tapes which I had recorded live that are sitting in my storage room. Don't need a history lesson from you, thanks.

 

[aman92]

If not for Djokerer, Nadal might have hypothetically won the CYGS in 2019 - do you seriously think he's at his peak now??

No because the tour is weak in general... In 2011 all of the big 4 were near their peak /primes

 

[Apun94]

So what? It doesn't mean he was at his peak level during all this time. On clay and grass Nadal was much better in 2007 than in 2011, it's honestly a joke to argue with that. On hardcourt it is closer, though the peak level was still higher in 2007.

On HC, peak to peak, 2011 Nadal wins. He was just too inconsistent during some stretches in 2011 (i think mostly because of his defeats to Djokovic in WImbledon and USO hurt him mentally). But peak to peak, on HCs, 2011 Rafa all the way.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

No because the tour is weak in general... In 2011 all of the big 4 were near their peak /primes

And in 2007, Fedal were in their peak/prime.

 

[aman92]

And in 2007, Fedal were in their peak/prime.

Nadal was only peak on clay.. He had not even reached a single HC GS semi final till 2007

 

[StrongRule]

Nadal was only peak on clay.. He had not even reached a single HC GS semi final till 2007

LOL, so you believe Nadal wasn't at his peak on grass in 2007?

To say 2011 Nadal was better on grass than 2007 Nadal is a joke.

 

[aman92]

LOL, so you believe Nadal wasn't at his peak on grass in 2007?

To say 2011 Nadal was better on grass than 2007 Nadal is a joke. Even most Djokovic fans are not writing such BS.

About the same level... It was more of a mental issue for Nadal against Djokovic at that time.. Nothing to do with his level of tennis which was quite high till the finals. If you forgot, he had was taken to 5 sets by Soderling in 2007. In 2011, he beat 2 high quality opponents in Del Potro and Murray on his way to the final

 

[StrongRule]

About the same level... It was more of a mental issue for Nadal against Djokovic at that time.. Nothing to do with his level of tennis which was quite high till the finals. If you forgot, he had was taken to 5 sets by Soderling in 2007. In 2011, he beat 2 high quality opponents in Del Potro and Murray on his way to the final

He was only good against Del Potro. Against Fish and Murray he played pretty bad. Very bad in the final, probably due to mentality. But mental strength is part of the game. In 2007 final he actually played very well, his level was up there with 2008.

If Nadal had problems against Soderling it doesn't mean he was out of form. Soderling was always a tough opponent for him.

 

[Nadal_Django]

2011 Nadal wins easily the 2007 Wimbledon final in 4 comfortable sets.

 

[StrongRule]

2011 Nadal wins easily the 2007 Wimbledon final in 4 comfortable sets.

 

[augustobt]

For a Nadal fan, you don't know much about him.

Lol. I could place a decent wager he never saw an entire tennis match of Nadal prior to 2011 (and that's being optimistic)

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Nadal was only peak on clay.. He had not even reached a single HC GS semi final till 2007

So Nadal was better in 2011 because of one tournament (where he didn't have a tough test en route and was badly squeezed by Djokovic in the final), lolgic indeed.

 

[tudwell]

Healthy Nadal in general was/is better than anyone on any surface to be honest. Year doesn't matter.

Not even the sport!

 

[NoleFam]

Nadal in IW 2007 played better than in any hardcourt tournament in 2011. More consistent doesn't mean his peak level was higher. And I already gave you a long list of players who beat Nadal on hardcourt in 2011, which you simply ignored. If anything, the only tournaments on hardcourt where he went far in 2011 were IW, Miami and USO.

Nadal was better on hardcourt in 2007 than 2011? His peak at IW 2007 was higher than anything he did on hardcourt in 2011? LOL. Based on what? Beating 19 year old Djokovic in his 1st Masters final who had yet to get his bearings? Nadal in 2007 was still getting routined in hardcourt Slams and was no threat at any hardcourt major. 2011 Nadal pushed Djokovic, at his very peak, to 3 sets in IW and Miami and that is the only time in his career that he made IW and Miami finals in the same year, and crushed Murray and Roddick on his way to the USO final. 2011 Nadal trounces 2007 Nadal on hardcourt without a doubt.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal of USO 2019 would annhilate Nadal of 2007 USO like a bug. There is no comparison. And Nadal 2011 would destroy 2007 Nadal too.
I still have over 400 of Nadal's matches from 2005 onward stored on VHS tapes which I had recorded live that are sitting in my storage room. Don't need a history lesson from you, thanks.

You better preserve all that epicness for posterity

 

[Mike Sams]

You better preserve all that epicness for posterity

...and prosperity. Although in the digital age, live video recordings from years back have greatly lost their value due to YouTube and torrents, etc.

 

[StrongRule]

Nadal was better on hardcourt in 2007 than 2011? His peak at IW 2007 was higher than anything he did on hardcourt in 2011? LOL. Based on what? Beating 19 year old Djokovic in his 1st Masters final who had yet to get his bearings? Nadal in 2007 was still getting routined in hardcourt Slams and was no threat at any hardcourt major. 2011 Nadal pushed Djokovic, at his very peak, to 3 sets in IW and Miami and that is the only time in his career that he made IW and Miami finals in the same year, and crushed Murray and Roddick on his way to the USO final. 2011 Nadal trounces 2007 Nadal on hardcourt without a doubt.

Let's not bring down 2007 Djokovic who right after that IW final won the masters in Miami with some great play. Actually the reason why Nadal didn't reach both finals (and probably why he didn't win both titles) is because he lost to Djokovic in Miami in a great match. Djokovic was clearly better in 2011 than 2007 but it doesn't mean he was a nobody in 2007.

In the hardcourt slams Nadal obviously didn't play well enough in 2007, though in AO he probably was still better in 2007 than in 2011.

 

[King No1e]

Maybe not in 4 comfortable sets, but he definitely has a 40% or so chance at pulling it out in 5.

 

[mike danny]

I see what you did there....

You can try and claim competition for Fed in 2007... maybe, not really though - but there's also 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006.

And for Nadal there's 2010, 2017, 2018 and 2019.

 

[mike danny]

Why's that?... He was definitely better and a more complete player in 2011 especially on hard courts. On clay yes 2007 trumps it because he practically retrieved everything during that time and had endless stamina. But his groundstrokes were just so much more better in 2011

There is no way 2011 Nadal was better on grass than 2007 Nadal.

 

[mike danny]

Although I voted 07 on clay and grass and 11 on hc, it's not that simple because Djokovic, especially when he played his best tennis, was better than Federer in the matchup with Nadal.

At the end of the day, in slams, Djokovic hasn't been convincingly better vs Nadal than Fed.

 

[Nadal_Django]

About the same level... It was more of a mental issue for Nadal against Djokovic at that time.. Nothing to do with his level of tennis which was quite high till the finals. If you forgot, he had was taken to 5 sets by Soderling in 2007. In 2011, he beat 2 high quality opponents in Del Potro and Murray on his way to the final

Nadal played one of his best matches ever on grass in 2011 against Delpo. As for 2007, If not for the mug grass competition, he probably doesn't get a sniff at the Wimbledon final that year. He still wasn't ready nor mentally, nor playing wise. In 2007 he was one year away, from being 2 years away from playing his peak tennis on the grass surface.

 

[RS]

Nadal played one of his best matches ever on grass in 2011 against Delpo. As for 2007, If not for the mug grass competition, he probably doesn't get a sniff at the Wimbledon final that year. He still wasn't ready nor mentally, nor playing wise. In 2007 he was one year away, from being 2 years away from playing his peak tennis on the grass surface.

Your comments are just shocking really.....

 

[NatF]

Your comments are just shocking really.....

Half the people on here don't believe what they write and are just trying to wind others up I reckon lol.

 

[Nadal_Django]

Your comments are just shocking really.....

In a thread where Nadal who is losing badly in Slams to effing Gonzalez and Ferrer is portrayed as a better HC player than Nadal who played one of the highest quality HC matches ever in the 2011 USO final, nothing is shocking really!

 

[RS]

In a thread where Nadal who is losing badly in Slams to effing Gonzalez and Ferrer is portrayed as a better HC player than Nadal who played one of the highest quality HC matches ever in the 2011 USO final, nothing is shocking really!

The rallies were brutal for the first 3 sets in USO 2011 but the last brings it down. The third set is one of the best i have seen though.
And it is not your comment about HC that was shocking it was the comment about grass and Nadal having a mug draw in 2007.

 

[RS]

Half the people on here don't believe what they write and are just trying to wind others up I reckon lol.

Tennis fandom nowdays.....

 

[Lew II]

Before RG 2007 Nadal had reached just 3 of his total 33 slam semifinals.

He was just in first steps into the tour.