Grigor demonstrating wrist snap on FH

[Fintft]

I don't even like lag. If the backswing is reasonable and the start of the foreswing is reasonable, you will lag if you are a high level player probably without even knowing it and certainly without thinking about it.
For most players it's far better at first to consciously set up the wrist back position--and get the core fundamentals right.
It's crazy the time and energy (and posts and words) people waste on this bogus lag and snap concept. Then you see their forehands and it's horrifying because the preparation and the extension are limited, wrong, or non-existent.
No doubt the motions on the forehand are complex and varied--the mistake is in confusing effects with causes and getting lost trying to manipulate the effects.

The best player in town with whom I took a hitting session yesterday (20 y old, former futurity, tries to get on the challangers, presently recovering from an ankle injury), told me something among the same lines: '"don't think too much, hit relaxed" (As I was critical exactly of my preparation on some shots and his sister had been critical on my extension last week)

 

[JohnYandell]

yeah don't think too much--if your technique is really good...

 

[kiteboard]

Top level players who don't think too much have arrived at that only after thinking a hell of a lot. Top level martial artists only achieve max. speed in their attacks due to a very high rate of relaxation, at a very tense level. It's the same thing in tennis: first achieve very good technique, and then learn how to do it at a very high level of relaxed speed. It's a paradox few learn to beat. The upper body has to be drunken monkey loose, while the lower has to be ninja fast/tense, at the same time.

 

[GuyClinch]

It's crazy the time and energy (and posts and words) people waste on this bogus lag and snap concept. Then you see their forehands and it's horrifying because the preparation and the extension are limited, wrong, or non-existent.

I think outside of message boards people don't care.. Teaching Pros will tell you to just keep a relaxed grip and a relaxed arm - and this is good enough. If you swing fast enough with some relaxation - you will lag because of inertia. When the arm slows down the racquet will go ahead - again inertia.

Not really advanced physics concepts here.. If your kinetic chain is kinda proper - aka big muscles - your arms will lag and your wrist will lag - hence the monkey drum idea.. Amateurs seems to get less lag because their swing is not as fast.

I do think there is some wisdom in just laying your wrist back and keeping it that way for rec players. But I haven't found it to be essential. Serve Doctor has that device which holds your wrist laid back - and I have one. I found that i can hit very good forehands with this device on. So for me 'the snap' part of the lag and snap ain't doing squat..

I agree with your theory it's probably not doing that much for pro players either.

 

[5263]

What is a "draw" forehand?

What is "that type action in the wrist" before impact that you are referring to as it appears in the Essential Tennis video of post #12? At what time of the video?

The frame at the time of the video changes, say from 4 to 5 seconds, you can then start counting the number of frames advanced to an event to get, for example, 5 seconds and 12 frame advances to the start of wrist flexion. That way you can identify the exact frame you want.

Draw is when the ball tends to break back into the inside in flight like in golf, to the left for a Righty Fh or to the right for a lefty Fh.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I think outside of message boards people don't care.. Teaching Pros will tell you to just keep a relaxed grip and a relaxed arm - and this is good enough. If you swing fast enough with some relaxation - you will lag because of inertia. When the arm slows down the racquet will go ahead - again inertia.

Not really advanced physics concepts here.. If your kinetic chain is kinda proper - aka big muscles - your arms will lag and your wrist will lag - hence the monkey drum idea.. Amateurs seems to get less lag because their swing is not as fast.

I do think there is some wisdom in just laying your wrist back and keeping it that way for rec players. But I haven't found it to be essential. Serve Doctor has that device which holds your wrist laid back - and I have one. I found that i can hit very good forehands with this device on. So for me 'the snap' part of the lag and snap ain't doing squat..

I agree with your theory it's probably not doing that much for pro players either.

The reason 'lag and snap' is a bad descriptor is it makes it sound like performing two discrete movements to hit the forehand. Whereas from the point where the racquet head is lowered upto follow through it doesn't stop. That is why players keep both hands on racquet during unit turn - to postpone arm separation and lowering of racquet head until as late as possible (without impeding your ability to make contact out in front). That helps ensure that you aren't waiting for the ball with racquet head down. You just go through it; it's a flow and not a series of steps. Bit like throwing the racquet at the ball except that you never lose control of the handle nor of the swing path. But the looseness should be akin to throwing.

 

[Fintft]

yeah don't think too much--if your technique is really good...

That was exactly my main point with him: he's got really good technique, me I was training/it was a lesson basically, so I thought it was ok to think about 1-2 things that I wasn't doing well consistently.

 

[Fintft]

I think outside of message boards people don't care.. Teaching Pros will tell you to just keep a relaxed grip and a relaxed arm - and this is good enough. If you swing fast enough with some relaxation - you will lag because of inertia. When the arm slows down the racquet will go ahead - again inertia.

Not really advanced physics concepts here.. If your kinetic chain is kinda proper - aka big muscles - your arms will lag and your wrist will lag - hence the monkey drum idea.. Amateurs seems to get less lag because their swing is not as fast.

I do think there is some wisdom in just laying your wrist back and keeping it that way for rec players. But I haven't found it to be essential. Serve Doctor has that device which holds your wrist laid back - and I have one. I found that i can hit very good forehands with this device on. So for me 'the snap' part of the lag and snap ain't doing squat..

I agree with your theory it's probably not doing that much for pro players either.

I still feel that you need at least a proper follow through, if not pushing on your leg and starting the move with your hips, exactly as per yours (and lockandrolltennis com) idea Besides the laid back wrist and the relaxed arm (the later being crucial).

 

[Fintft]

It's the same thing in tennis: first achieve very good technique, and then learn how to do it at a very high level of relaxed speed. It's a paradox few learn to beat. The upper body has to be drunken monkey loose, while the lower has to be ninja fast/tense, at the same time.

About the former: I guess that was my yesterday's coach point, that my technique was good enough so that overthinking actually got into the way at times.

About the later: I have an even more difficult example, from my first European/Romanian coach, from a couple of years ago as to how on the serve the left side (the one with the tossing arm) has to be tense, while the side with the racquet arm loose and I actually remembered it tonight when tossing by leading with a locked elbow (that worked, but the complications are always to have a relaxed racquet arm/side at the same time. What helps is buying some time e.g. with higher toss, more coiling and bending the knees).

 

[revolutiontenniz]

Chas: is it necessary to overanalyze everything?

 

[watungga]

Chas: is it necessary to overanalyze everything?

They are thorough enough for everyone. Not leaving details in case someone is looking for it, or ignore it right away if not interested.

 

[watungga]

I really wanted to produce this lag without thinking too much about it.
I came up with my own technique and still trying out if its feasible. The thumb+pointer+middle fingers makes enough grip not to drop the racquet to the ground.
The ring and pinkie finger are just there, very very loose.
Overall, if the ball hits the frame, the resulting racquet twist has to happen and i won't be fighting it with firmer grip (or I could destroy my arm as I'm using RF97).
Firmer grip comes "close to" after the impact or otherwise the racquet might be thrown to the net.

 

[heninfan99]

It's a by-product of the larger movement.
Video proof:

 

[5263]

'"don't think too much, hit relaxed"

"Hit relaxed" works because the racket does NOT want to come forward during the forward part of the swing. Because you are relaxed and the racket is resisting the forward swing. It lags back and is dragged forward during the initial part of the swing out to the contact area, also lending more feel for the racket. On the fade Fh, it is not until the hand starts to sharpen what was a very shallow arc (very direct path) to the ball, to a tighter arc by starting to pull across and back towards the body centerline more.....it is not until then where the racket want to "fly out" and forward due to the centrifugal effect. On the draw Fh it is a bit different and slightly more complex to explain. This accounts for why the wrist usage debates tend to rage on, since the "racket release" phase is sequenced a bit different on different types of Fhs.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

yeah don't think too much--if your technique is really good...

Top level players who don't think too much have arrived at that only after thinking a hell of a lot. Top level martial artists only achieve max. speed in their attacks due to a very high rate of relaxation, at a very tense level. It's the same thing in tennis: first achieve very good technique, and then learn how to do it at a very high level of relaxed speed. It's a paradox few learn to beat. The upper body has to be drunken monkey loose, while the lower has to be ninja fast/tense, at the same time.

gotta agree with @kiteboard
thx to these boards... i have spent quite a bit of time thinking/focusing on the "lag and snap" in my stroke... basically relaxing myself enough to allow it to happen, and making sure i'm doing the proper micro movements to guide the racquet optimally... it's definitely a different feeling to how i used to hit... and my timing changed slightly... now i don't have to think about it as much, but only after i spent alot of time thinking about it.

alternatively, just be virtue of hitting alot of balls, especially when tired, you start relaxing, and you might achieve the same thing... but i'm not in a daily, twice a day, 2hr junior clinic where i have the luxury of repitition.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I think outside of message boards people don't care.. Teaching Pros will tell you to just keep a relaxed grip and a relaxed arm - and this is good enough. If you swing fast enough with some relaxation - you will lag because of inertia. When the arm slows down the racquet will go ahead - again inertia.

Not really advanced physics concepts here.. If your kinetic chain is kinda proper - aka big muscles - your arms will lag and your wrist will lag - hence the monkey drum idea.. Amateurs seems to get less lag because their swing is not as fast.

I do think there is some wisdom in just laying your wrist back and keeping it that way for rec players. But I haven't found it to be essential. Serve Doctor has that device which holds your wrist laid back - and I have one. I found that i can hit very good forehands with this device on. So for me 'the snap' part of the lag and snap ain't doing squat..

I agree with your theory it's probably not doing that much for pro players either.

IMO the reason(s) rec players don't have a fast swing:
* they just don't try swinging out (as hard as they can) without consequences...
* they're too busy guiding the ball so they they can keep the rally going, and "not make a mistake"
* still poor at hitting a moving ball (spacing footwork etc..)
everyone should just self-feed (low) drop-feeds and experiment with bashing the ball and trying to get more topspin

for me the "lag and snap" of my fh/serve in particular are huge in generating more spin, but would be useless if i started to try learning "lag and snap" if i was still struggling to make consistent contact with a moving ball

 

[Chas Tennis]

'lag' is a dead-end tennis term, something we see easily when the racket or arm 'lags' behind.

But the term 'lag' over simplifies and hides some simple things that are helpful in understanding the strokes:

1) inertia
2) acceleration (note that acceleration is not velocity, not speed, not fast, not slow,.... but it does apply when objects change velocity, 'speed up', 'slow down',......)
3) muscle stretching

A basic equation of physics is

F=ma

where force = mass X acceleration.

(There are no forces when an object is simply moving forward in a straight line.)

Acceleration describes how rapidly velocity changes vs time.

Forget lag and consider how things move during accelerations (forget motion/velocity, and identify accelerations). The forward motion of the racket does not cause lag. The acceleration of the racket by the hand causes: 1) the racket to speed up/increase velocity, 2) its head also drops back, 3) muscles stretch and store energy, and then what is called 'lag' can be seen. As the racket is being stopped that is acceleration also, often called deacceleration.

If the racket is constrained to move on a circle then centrifugal force is used. But centrifugal force is actually acceleration. F=ma on a constrained circular path causes the racket velocity to change direction and move on a circle. Tie an object to a string and rotate it in a circle to feel the force, F.

Forget lag and identify:

1) accelerations
2) the inertias of various objects and how they might affect joints. (Moment of inertia is used for rotational problems.)
3) the main muscles that are stretched as joints change their angles.

Put a racket in your hand and gently accelerate it in various directions with various arm, joint and racket configurations. Sure the wrist and racket 'lags' but can you see other stuff?

 

[bitcoinoperated]

In the Essential Tennis Dimitrov video the wrist goes from about 90 d. extended (near maximum) to about 45 d. at impact, in other words, he flexed his wrist about 45 d.

When you use the term 'passive' do you mean that he used stretched muscles in his forearm for the forces to flex his wrist joint? OR,
Did his wrist joint flex because of some other unidentified motions?

Yeah the stretch/extend of forearm muscles. This can only happen if the player is relaxed and isn't trying to actively control the wrist.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Call it whatever you want, but he's snapping his wrist immediately after the racquet lag

Describing it correctly helps others to understand it and do it themselves.

He supinates his forearm at the start of the forward swing, and then pronates his forearm prior to contact which pronation continues after contact. He's not snapping his wrist.

PS: Rick Macci refers to it as "the flip," because the rapid supination/pronation has the appearance of the racquet flipping back and forth.

 

[Stupendous1HBH]

Describing it correctly helps others to understand it and do it themselves.

He supinates his forearm at the start of the forward swing, and then pronates his forearm prior to contact which pronation continues after contact. He's not snapping his wrist.

PS: Rick Macci refers to it as "the flip," because the rapid supination/pronation has the appearance of the racquet flipping back and forth.

I've since corrected myself and the terminology used originally.

 

[5263]

'lag' is a dead-end tennis term, something we see easily when the racket or arm 'lags' behind.

But the term 'lag' over simplifies and hides some simple things

Forget lag ....

This is a very strange post coming from Chas. Lag is a dead-end tennis term? I don't even know what he is trying to say here, but there is nothing dead-end about it.

Lag over simplifies some simple things?.....Uh yes, that is the point of the term.... to simplify and be a term to describe the simple result of a group of things that occur in a good tennis swing. Terms like lag are very Key to tie together batches of activity in a simple unifying fashion.

The discussion of Lag is not about force so much because the the mass is pretty much fixed (worth debate, but for our discussions Imo it's ok). So the real issue here is acceleration and how to create and control it for usable Force application. Acceleration is the topic as it is the easily adjustable variable. How does looking for various tendon/muscle stretching and inertias simplify or make any of this more accessible to the player? How is that an improvement on simply learning how to lag the racket to drag it towards contact during that initial forward phase?

 

[Chas Tennis]

...... How does looking for various tendon/muscle stretching and inertias simplify or make any of this more accessible to the player? ...............

"....more accessible...."? What does that mean? I meant useful.

If a player is told 'see the lag', or that player uses the term 'lag' without understanding why the acceleration, muscles, inertia, the stretch shorten cycle are important, the term 'lag' hides what is going on. I don't think that most see these other subjects when the word 'lag' is used.

Identified Muscles. If certain muscles are stretched, what difference does that make later in the tennis stroke? In other words, what difference does lag often make?

If you know what muscles are being stretched you can look up the specific joint motions that these muscles might contribute forces to and see if lag might increase racket head speed. That is what I did to identify the wrist flexor muscles for forehand lag above.

Inertia. Why is a little understanding of inertia important? Because if you hold your arm and racket in one orientation its moment of inertia has a value, hold it in another way and the moment of inertia is much different. This is very obvious for the serve where the orientation and timing cause the arm and racket to lag and stretch muscles more than once. Knowing how moment of inertia is determined, using mass and how far the mass is from the rotation axis can help understand how best to hold the arm, wrist and racket as the stroke evolves, or, what not to do.

I have read posts where the racket is placed in the position of lag for a forehand or 'racket drop' for a tennis serve. Placing the racket to get a position that shows in a video indicates that the acceleration, inertia, muscles and stretch shorten cycle and other motion things have not been considered.

Acceleration, inertia, muscles and the stretch shorten cycle are discussed by researchers that study athletic motions. They are very useful for communication. This seems to be an increasing trend,....science. Forum posters can argue otherwise but where is the backup?

Tennis is full of terms that were identified and named long ago before the biomechanics were better understood. Now many terms stand in the way as many people use them to discuss things they are not aware of.

Interested adults can pick their terms for technical discussions.

If players were to write a page on what terms mean and why they are important they often will see that there are things missing.

 

[5263]

more accessible? I meant useful.

If a player is told 'see the lag', or that player uses the term 'lag' without understanding why the acceleration, muscles and inertia and the stretch shorten cycle are important, the term 'lag' hides what is going on.

.

Please take this as friendly debate, but Imo your comment shows you falling for the same mistake many researchers new to this topic are making.

As defined, SSC is an active stretch(eccentric contraction) of a muscle followed by an immediate shortening (concentric contraction) of that same muscle.

THis is not what is done on the Fh or serve. The shortening for the major acceleration is not immediate or even in the early forward part of the swing, but only after the lag and initial drag have been established from the slot position. Macci and others are promoting a "snatch from the slot" type swing when they use SSC in this manner. Now if you mean the SSC that happens right at the major acceleration just before contact, then yes, that is an immediate response to an active stretch which creates SSC, but the lag is already well established before that for top players from the slot. Yes, there is a bit of SSC used in creating the slot, but that is separate and not critical to the big acceleration that comes later. You can train and get the key SSC and acceleration for the Fh by working from the slot with a pre-set lag and get 80-90% of the full Fh potential.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Please take this as friendly debate, but Imo your comment shows you falling for the same mistake many researchers new to this topic are making.

As defined, SSC is an active stretch(eccentric contraction) of a muscle followed by an immediate shortening (concentric contraction) of that same muscle.

THis is not what is done on the Fh or serve. The shortening for the major acceleration is not immediate or even in the early forward part of the swing, but only after the lag and initial drag have been established from the slot position. Macci and others are promoting a "snatch from the slot" type swing when they use SSC in this manner. Now if you mean the SSC that happens right at the major acceleration just before contact, then yes, that is an immediate response to an active stretch which creates SSC, but the lag is already well established before that for top players from the slot. Yes, there is a bit of SSC used in creating the slot, but that is separate and not critical to the big acceleration that comes later. You can train and get the key SSC and acceleration for the Fh by working from the slot with a pre-set lag and get 80-90% of the full Fh potential.

Friendly debate yes.

I am not happy with tennis terms because I recall believing in many of them in the 1970s.

My understanding of the stretch shorten cycle (SSC) is that after the muscles are stretched they can supply forces for some time afterward. There are measurements of the % that is lost vs time and some % force is available longer than most tennis strokes. Force diminishes with time.

My understanding of increasing the force of a stretch, called 'active stretch', is that if you send activating EMG signals to the muscle while the muscle is still being stretched, that results in increased force from the stretched muscles when it contracts. For example, a plyometric exercise, jumping down off a box - if you activate your jumping leg muscles as they hit the floor and some muscles are forced to stretch by landing, the jump up will be higher with activation. That same principle was known for tennis strokes in a paper I saw from about 2000-2005 (can't find it).
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ences-on-tennis-strokes.427364/#post-10299241

How stretched muscles are controlled, I don't understand.

A most important feature of stretched muscles for athletics is that they can supply forces at higher shortening speeds - that is, stretched muscle shortening can be faster than active muscle shortening. If a stretched muscle is used it can supply acceleration forces at higher shortening speeds.