hot take : federer is little better RG player than djokovic

[mike danny]

Yeah that is massive for Novak.

But then he lost a final to a non-Nadal opponent, which is massive for Fed.

 

[RS]

But then he lost a final to a non-Nadal opponent, which is massive for Fed.

Read my first post on the matter responding to StrongRule.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Soderling beat (near)-prime Fed. Wawrinka beat prime Nole. Robin and Stan are the kind of players who can swing freely and fearlessly against the top guys. Not really much difference there.

2015ovic was clearly in better clay form than 2010erer yet lost more decisively (fedr had SP to go up two sets to one). Söd did lose the final but so would Stan to that Nadal, probably in straights too.

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic would have made the final in 2008 and 2013 if he wasn't in Nadal's half of the draw. That's the reason Federer has more finals. Djokovic has a slight edge over him since he was able to do more damage to Nadal there.

The wonders of having a two handed BH.

Nole and Fed will always be incomparable on clay due to this technical reason.

 

[NoleFam]

In 2005 his FH and BH did not get more attacking until 2007 but he hit it with more monster spin and he was scary fast. But fair if your talking about RG i think still that is debateable. I do not know if 2013 Nole would beat 2005/2006 Nadal on clay as well even at RG.

Saying Djokovic would beat him is a whole other can of worms but Nadal's forehand for sure was not as lethal in 2005 as it was in 2013, and I would say a bit stronger than 2006. Back in those years, imo, Nadal was more defensive than years after that.

 

[StrongRule]

Why the hell are you spam replying my posts? You need to chill.

Need to give him credit for still trying. It is always the same thing. You just keep writing arguments which make no sense and sometimes contradict things you have written in the past. The last comment you wrote to me is so strange that I don't even think it is worth a reply. I would just write obvious things and you would again say I am trolling. It's like a cycle.

 

[RS]

Saying Djokovic would beat him is a whole other can of worms but Nadal's forehand for sure was not as lethal in 2005 as it was in 2013, and I would say a bit stronger than 2006. Back in those years, imo, Nadal was more defensive than years after that.

Fair enough. I felt he was more rusty until 2013 until the last 4 rounds though even if he attacked better in 2013 with the FH. I feel he should not have let Novak 5 but Novak earned it with great play.

 

[NoleFam]

It's a tennis forum. You chill. I am just replying later than the others.

Yea it's a tennis forum but you don't need to spam and send 7 posts in a row like that.

 

[NoleFam]

Need to give him credit for still trying. It is always the same thing. You just keep writing arguments which make no sense and sometimes contradict things you have written in the past. The last comment you wrote to me is so strange that I don't even think it is worth a reply. I would just write obvious things and you would again say I am trolling. It's like a cycle.

Ok.

 

[RS]

Need to give him credit for still trying. It is always the same thing. You just keep writing arguments which make no sense and sometimes contradict things you have written in the past. The last comment you wrote to me is so strange that I don't even think it is worth a reply. I would just write obvious things and you would again say I am trolling. It's like a cycle.

Do you agree 2008 was a strong tennis year StrongRule?

 

[mike danny]

Yea it's a tennis forum but you don't need to spam and send 7 posts in a row like that.

Ok. Apologies.

 

[StrongRule]

"2015 doesn't count because Nadal wasn't playing well"

I didn't say it doesn't count, I said it is a joke to use this against Federer. Because any decent version of Federer would have destroyed that Nadal in straights. So using that as an argument to why Djokovic is better than Federer who only faced prime/peak Nadal in RG (outside of 2019 of course, but Federer himself was 38 years old and this Nadal was still many times better than in 2015) makes no sense at all.

 

[mike danny]

I didn't say it doesn't count, I said it is a joke to use this against Federer. Because any decent version of Federer would have destroyed that Nadal in straights. So using that as an argument to why Djokovic is better than Federer who only faced prime/peak Nadal in RG (outside of 2019 of course, but Federer himself was 38 years old and this Nadal was still many times better than in 2015) makes no sense at all.

Federer never pushing Nadal to 5 sets is a big knock on him in this debate.

But that can be canceled out by Djokovic losing a FO final to a non-Nadal opponent. That's a big deal because you can always make the argument that Fed's only obstacle was Nadal, while for Djokovic you can't do that anymore.

IMO, Fed never pushing Nadal to 5 should never be the decisive argument here, at least to a bigger extent than Djokovic losing a FO final to a non-Nadal player.

 

[StrongRule]

Do you agree 2008 was a strong tennis year StrongRule?

Yes.

 

[StrongRule]

Federer never pushing Nadal to 5 sets is a big knock on him in this debate.

But that can be canceled out by Djokovic losing a FO final to a non-Nadal opponent. That's a big deal because you can always make the argument that Fed's only obstacle was Nadal, while for Djokovic you can't do that anymore.

IMO, Fed never pushing Nadal to 5 should never be the decisive argument here, at least to a bigger extent than Djokovic losing a FO final to a non-Nadal player.

More than that, Federer actually has some great wins (like in 2011 against Djokovic) and I don't know how is it a weaker argument than Djokovic losing a close match to Nadal. Anyway, somehow nobody remembers Nadal almost bageled Djokovic in this RG 2013 semifinal in the third set, and was twice up with a break in the fourth. That should have been a routine 4 set win, but Nadal has big mental problems against Djokovic and he choked. Ironically, even after that he still won the match.

 

[mike danny]

More than that, Federer actually has some great wins (like in 2011 against Djokovic) and I don't know how is it a weaker argument than Djokovic losing a close match to Nadal. Anyway, somehow nobody remembers Nadal almost bageled Djokovic in this RG 2013 semifinal in the third set, and was twice up with a break in the fourth. That should have been a routine 4 set win, but Nadal has big mental problems against Djokovic and he choked. Ironically, even after that he still won the match.

True. If they played that match 10 more times, I don't think Djokovic would have pushed him to 5 sets again.

Djokovic does match up better with Rafa, but even he needed fortune on his side to push Nadal to a 5th set.

 

[ark_28]

Yeah, it's Fed's fault he never got the chance to feast on a really weak Nadal.

Understood.

Federer has beaten Stan at the FO though. Djokovic hasn't.

He didn’t in 2015 and are you really comparing beating Stan to beating any version of Rafa at RG?

 

[King No1e]

I didn't say it doesn't count, I said it is a joke to use this against Federer. Because any decent version of Federer would have destroyed that Nadal in straights. So using that as an argument to why Djokovic is better than Federer who only faced prime/peak Nadal in RG (outside of 2019 of course, but Federer himself was 38 years old and this Nadal was still many times better than in 2015) makes no sense at all.

2015 Nadal gave Federer a fight in BASEL. 2015 Nadal would beat 2015 Federer at RG.

 

[mike danny]

He didn’t in 2015 and are you really comparing beating Stan to beating any version of Rafa at RG?

Clearly Novak could beat Rafa, but couldn't beat Stan, so what does that say about Rafa's form?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

2015 Nadal gave Federer a fight in BASEL. 2015 Nadal would beat 2015 Federer at RG.

He said decent. 2015 Federer wasn't that on clay for his prime standards.

 

[King No1e]

He said decent. 2015 Federer wasn't that on clay for his prime standards.

Didn't you hear? 2015 was Federer's peak, especially on clay. Especially in the Rome final.

 

[ark_28]

Clearly Novak could beat Rafa, but couldn't beat Stan, so what does that say about Rafa's form?

I never said 2015 Rafa was the best of Rafa but he’s only lost twice there ever and Federer hasn’t even taken him to 5 sets! Great as Nadal is he’s not going to be at his absolute best every time they meet each other so that is a disappointing record for Federer v Nadal at RG! Even Isner took Nadal to 5 sets at RG in 2010.

 

[mike danny]

I never said 2015 Rafa was the best of Rafa but he’s only lost twice there ever and Federer hasn’t even taken him to 5 sets! Great as Nadal is he’s not going to be at his absolute best every time they meet each other so that is a disappointing record for Federer v Nadal at RG! Even Isner took Nadal to 5 sets at RG in 2010.

2011 Nadal was way better than 2015 Nadal though.

All you say matters zilch when Nadal was so bad in 2015 that all these things would have been irrelevant. You can have all the history on your side, it's not going to help you one bit when you're too bad to do anything about it.

Fed never played Nadal in that kind of terrible form. That's why it's silly to suggest he couldn't do it.

 

[TMF]

"2015 doesn't count because Nadal wasn't playing well"

It counts but not that impressive as beating peak Nadal on clay before 2010.

I put Soderling wins over Nadal in 2009 FO way more impressive than Nole's win over Nadal in 2015.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

It counts but not that impressive as beating peak Nadal on clay before 2010.

I put Soderling wins over Nadal in 2009 FO way more impressive than Nole's win over Nadal in 2015.

I think everyone does a part from a few Novak fanboys of course thinking Rafas worst year was some sort of peak.

 

[maratha_warrior]

This argument will continue forever because , Both have won 1 RG each and H2H is 1-1 .
Keep fighting .

 

[King No1e]

It counts but not that impressive as beating peak Nadal on clay before 2010.

I put Soderling wins over Nadal in 2009 FO way more impressive than Nole's win over Nadal in 2015.

Before 2010? Nadal's peak was arguably after 2010.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I kind of agree. I would have Federer over Djokovic at RG the tiniest amount, but Djokovic still over Federer overall on clay by a tiny amount. Something like that.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

This argument will continue forever because , Both have won 1 RG each and H2H is 1-1 .
Keep fighting .

Seriously. I think some people don't understand the meaning of 'hot take'. One doesn't have to get hot under the collar over a hot take. This is dead even and the way people are arguing about it so confidently as if one player is definitely better than the other at RG is hilarious.