Is Djokovic a better clay court player than Nadal?

Is Djokovic a better clay court player than Nadal?

  • Yes, he showed it last year

    Votes: 21 29.2%

  • No, because of the past

    Votes: 51 70.8%
  • Total voters
    72
  • Poll closed .
H

Heracles

Banned
I know that Nadal has won 6 times Roland Garros and countless other MS on this surface.

But last year he was completely powerless against Djokovic on the same surface. He won Roland Garros, benefiting from Federer victory against the Serbian.

But he was annilated in both Roma and Madrid matchs by Djokovic. Seriously, who would favor Nadal over Djokovic on clay this year?
 
FuriousYellow

FuriousYellow

Professional
Nadal vs Djokovic in the Finals at Roland Garros, to me, is the most highly anticipated match of 2012. Except for his defeat by Soderling, no one has really posed a serious challenge to Nadal at RG.
 
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N

NadalAgassi

Guest
In terms of historical ranking, not in the same stratosphere. Djokovic has to win the next 2 French Opens, and another 3 or 4 Masters titles on the surfaces just to be ranked over Federer on clay, and Federer is light years behind Nadal. Even if he managed that some might still rank him below Roger when Roger has 5 French Open finals (though only 1 title). In terms of historical greatness Djokovic has no chance of ever coming anywhere near Nadal on the surface in fact.

In terms of current ability on clay, well last year Djokovic couldnt even beat Federer at Roland Garros so for now Nadal, but I wouldnt be surprised if that changes this year.
 
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L

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Heracles said:
I know that Nadal has won 6 times Roland Garros and countless other MS on this surface.

But last year he was completely powerless against Djokovic on the same surface. He won Roland Garros, benefiting from Federer victory against the Serbian.

But he was annilated in both Roma and Madrid matchs by Djokovic. Seriously, who would favor Nadal over Djokovic on clay this year?
Click to expand...

Well, strictly speaking, the FO isn't clay, it's ground up brick over a limestone substrate. Real clay is much finer and a bit sticky and sits on top of a compacted clay substrate. Having said that, I think Nadal is still the best clay court player since Borg until proven otherwise.
 
T

Tammo

Banned
Uh mabye for last year, but Nadal has 6 FO's, and many MS1000 clay court titles. Djokovic has 0 FO's and 3(?) MS1000 titles.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Tammo said:
Uh mabye for last year, but Nadal has 6 FO's, and many MS1000 clay court titles. Djokovic has 0 FO's and 3(?) MS1000 titles.
Click to expand...

In terms of achievements Djokovic is not even a top 50 clay courter all time. I like him, he is probably one of my favorites after Nadal, and I want to see him do better especialy at Roland Garros since he clearly has had the potential a long time, but for now it is what it is. Maybe he will change that this year. He started last year by beating Nadal to win 2 Masters titles on clay, but still 0 French Open finals.
 
J

jokinla

Hall of Fame
Good God another moronic, Djokovic is the best thread. Please, he is light years behind Nadal in terms of achievement, he hasn't been to a FO final yet, much less won one. Perhaps bump this thread when he wins a few.
 
mellowyellow

mellowyellow

Legend
this is an extremely worrisome situation for the *******s. If Djoko were to prove dominance over Nadal on clay what implications that raises. Sure he may not have the Slam count of RG but to beat the guy everyone praised and to do it when still in his prime years......... This is also completely different than having the head to head against Fed for Nadal, as it would be his best surface, where Nadal has the edge on Fed skewed by mostly clay Feds weakest. Hmmmm, we shall see. The problem I see is in 5 years Nadal is not a finals contender like Fed has been.
 
W

wimble10

Semi-Pro
6 FOs. Wow that's a lot. I used to think Roger would never win at RG but of course he did. Now the big question is will Djokovic win the title. With all his momentum I think this year could be his best chance. All he has to do now is focus on RG.
 
R

Raz11

Professional
Djokovic would need to dominate the clay season much like Nadal has done the past few years to even be considered a greater clay court player than Nadal. However since last year, Djokovic has been beating Nadal on clay without much trouble. I think Djokovic may have the advantage if they were to meet on the dirt from now on though it doesn't make Djokovic the better clay court player than Nadal. I think it is a bit too late for Djokovic to catch up to Nadal's 6 RG.

According to some people's logic though, if Djokovic can win 3 - 4 RG and have a leading H2H record on clay against Nadal then Djokovic would be the better clay court player than Nadal.
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
Djokovic was arguably the dominant clay court player in 2011. It is hard to say who will be this year...impossible to count Nadal out on the dirt.
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Polvorin said:
Djokovic was arguably the dominant clay court player in 2011. It is hard to say who will be this year...impossible to count Nadal out on the dirt.
Click to expand...

Nadal won the French Open, Monte Carlo and Barcelona, and was runner-up in Madrid and Rome. Djokovic won Belgrade, Madrid and Rome, and was a semi final loser at the French Open. Nadal had the better clay-court season in terms of results in 2011.
 
Speranza

Speranza

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
In terms of historical ranking, not in the same stratosphere. Djokovic has to win the next 2 French Opens, and another 3 or 4 Masters titles on the surfaces just to be ranked over Federer on clay, and Federer is light years behind Nadal. Even if he managed that some might still rank him below Roger when Roger has 5 French Open finals (though only 1 title). In terms of historical greatness Djokovic has no chance of ever coming anywhere near Nadal on the surface in fact.

In terms of current ability on clay, well last year Djokovic couldnt even beat Federer at Roland Garros so for now Nadal, but I wouldnt be surprised if that changes this year.
Click to expand...

Although I agree with your general sentiment, I'd have left out the sentence in bold above.

No chance ever?

Would you or anyone else have guessed that Novak Djokovic, the 'quitter' as known by many up until last year, would have won three of the four majors, last year, had a phenomenal win loss record for the year, and have beaten Ralph in 7 consecutive finals (3 of them majors)?

I doubt it.

Hence, never say never.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Yeah if he wins virtually every clay event including every French Open until he is 30 then he could maybe make it close, LOL!
 
matchmaker

matchmaker

Hall of Fame
This is stupid. We are talking about an all time great on clay and someone who hasn't even managed to win RG.

This hype surrounding Djokovic is really getting irritating. Okay, he's a bad matchup for Nadal on most any surface, but that doesn't mean he is a better claycourter than Nadal.
 
R

Raz11

Professional
NadalAgassi said:
Yeah if he wins virtually every clay event including every French Open until he is 30 then he could maybe make it close, LOL!
Click to expand...

No, until he is 28 should be fine. With 4 French Open and a leading H2H on clay over Nadal would be enough to overtake Nadal as the better clay court player.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Speranza said:
Although I agree with your general sentiment, I'd have left out the sentence in bold above.

No chance ever?

Would you or anyone else have guessed that Novak Djokovic, the 'quitter' as known by many up until last year, would have won three of the four majors, last year, had a phenomenal win loss record for the year, and have beaten Ralph in 7 consecutive finals (3 of them majors)?

I doubt it.

Hence, never say never.
Click to expand...


He's never made an RG final though. AO was the first slam title he won and it's always been one of his favorite events. He also made the USO final at only 20. He's never made an RG final. Not saying he couldn't win it but he's had bad losses there (Melzer and Kohl). He will have to prove himself. He's always done better in best of 3 on clay than in best of 5.
I can still see him win 1 RG but a bunch? Not extremely likely at this stage.
 
Clarky21

Clarky21

Banned
Raz11 said:
No, until he is 28 should be fine. With 4 French Open and a leading H2H on clay over Nadal would be enough to overtake Nadal as the better clay court player.
Click to expand...


Where do you get this bs from? How many people here keep saying that Nadal STILL has to prove he is claygoat by winning one more RG,yet you want to try and say that with only 4 RG titles Magneto would be better than Nadal and Borg? Get outta here.
 
R

Raz11

Professional
Clarky21 said:
Where do you get this bs from? How many people here keep saying that Nadal STILL has to prove he is claygoat by winning one more RG,yet you want to try and say that with only 4 RG titles Magneto would be better than Nadal and Borg? Get outta here.
Click to expand...

I was just referring to the fact that NadalAgassi always claim that Nadal with 14-15 slams is enough to overtake Federer as the better player with their H2H. But in this situation that doesn't matter to him and that Djokovic would need at least 6 FO regardless of their H2H.
 
C

ChanceEncounter

Professional
NadalAgassi said:
In terms of current ability on clay, well last year Djokovic couldnt even beat Federer at Roland Garros so for now Nadal, but I wouldnt be surprised if that changes this year.
Click to expand...
Last year, Djokovic got lucky to beat Federer at the US Open and beat Nadal relatively easily. What's your point? This A > B and B > C, therefore A > C argument is misleading, disingenuous, and fallacious.

Based on current evidence, I say Djokovic is better than Nadal on fast clay. As for how he would perform against him at Roland Garros in a best of 5, it's yet to be seen, but I think it should be a very close match.
 
W

wimble10

Semi-Pro
Most people regard RG as the test to see who is the best on clay. Therefore I believe Nadal is currently still a better clay courter than Djokovic. But I also believe that if Djokovic wins RG this year, then he could regarded as the best on clay.
 
Speranza

Speranza

Hall of Fame
veroniquem said:
He's never made an RG final though. AO was the first slam title he won and it's always been one of his favorite events. He also made the USO final at only 20. He's never made an RG final. Not saying he couldn't win it but he's had bad losses there (Melzer and Kohl). He will have to prove himself. He's always done better in best of 3 on clay than in best of 5.
I can still see him win 1 RG but a bunch? Not extremely likely at this stage.
Click to expand...

Again, you make valid points, and I agree with you on them. However, he hadn't made a Wimbledon final either until last year.... It is unlikely, yes, but not impossible, that's my point.

I tell you one thing, Ralph will be working on his backhand for the clay season.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Speranza said:
Again, you make valid points, and I agree with you on them. However, he hadn't made a Wimbledon final either until last year.... It is unlikely, yes, but not impossible, that's my point.

I tell you one thing, Ralph will be working on his backhand for the clay season.
Click to expand...




Oh it's not impossible, definitely. The comparison to Wimbledon is a great one BTW.
I also agree that Rafa's backhand needs work. It's the shot that has regressed the most in his game (more than the serve even imo).
 
C

ChanceEncounter

Professional
veroniquem said:
Oh it's not impossible, definitely. The comparison to Wimbledon is a great one BTW.
I also agree that Rafa's backhand needs work. It's the shot that has regressed the most in his game (more than the serve even imo).
Click to expand...
Neither Nadal's serve or backhand have regressed. Nadal's playing at a very, very high level. He's gotten to every slam final, he's getting to all the MS finals for clay. Overall, if not for one man and his superhuman effort, Nadal's 2011 season would probably have been among the best of all time (at least on par with his 2010 year).

If anything, Nadal needs to adapt his tactics. He's feasted on weak backhands his whole career. If you look at the forehand/backhand statistics of these majors, Nadal hits more forehand-to-opponent's-backhand exchanges than he does backhand-to-opponent's-forehand. Those are points where Nadal should, theoretically, have the advantage. The problem is that Nadal's forehand-to-Djokovic's-backhand is not an advantage for Nadal. At best, it's even, and at worse, Djokovic is dictating points from his backhand wing.

What Djokovic needs to do is improve his crosscourt backhand and start forcing exchanges to go the other way, his backhand-to-Djokovic's-forehand. Because the current model of trading his forehand to his opponent's backhand is not working for him.
 
P

pvaudio

Legend
These Djokovic threads are getting absolutely ridiculous. I truly dislike Nadal, and I openly admit that he is the greatest clay courter that's lived. His game is perfectly suited for it, and it's not coincidence that he's been most successful on clay.
 
M

monfed

Guest
I think Nadal's game is suited to clay more than Novak's. Let me put it this way -

Nadal's pedigree - clay

Novak's pedigree - HC

Yes, Novak DOES beat Nadal on clay,no question about it. But does that make him a better "claycourter"? I don't think so.

It's like saying just because Nadal beats Federer on HC,does it make him a better hardcourter? Nope,dont think so.

You have to judge a player's ability on a particular surface by rating him against an evenly matched player instead of one player alone because matchup issues crop up. A good example of this is Murray vs Djokovic. They seem to be evenly matched imo so their H2H would be more telling.
 
B

bullfan

Legend
Raz11 said:
No, until he is 28 should be fine. With 4 French Open and a leading H2H on clay over Nadal would be enough to overtake Nadal as the better clay court player.
Click to expand...

Djokovic needs to win 6 FOs to be a better clay court player, ain't ever gonna happen.
 
S

Sim

Semi-Pro
No one is beating the Nadal/Borg 6 FO achievement for a long, long time.

Plus Nadal can still win more FOs

Djokovic has none. This thread is ridiculous and the poll result as well lol
 
B

bullfan

Legend
wimble10 said:
Most people regard RG as the test to see who is the best on clay. Therefore I believe Nadal is currently still a better clay courter than Djokovic. But I also believe that if Djokovic wins RG this year, then he could regarded as the best on clay.
Click to expand...

You'd say 0 FO win beats 6 FO wins? This whole post baffles me at this point in time. This is such a fail post it's not even funny. There's absolutely zero to back this up.
 
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N

NadalAgassi

Guest
ChanceEncounter said:
Last year, Djokovic got lucky to beat Federer at the US Open and beat Nadal relatively easily. What's your point? This A > B and B > C, therefore A > C argument is misleading, disingenuous, and fallacious.
Click to expand...

As always your point is ridiculous and futile, and your reading comprehension non existant. I never spoke in my posts in this thread to whether Djokovic would have or wouldnt have beaten Nadal in the FO final. Given their matchups in the last year he might well have. However whether he would have is irrelevant as what did happen as he couldnt even make the final, and failed to do so by losing to a clearly weaker clay courter than Nadal in the semis. To put it in simple terms that even you might understand, winning the French Open >>> losing in the French Open semis to a 30ish Federer. On another note comparing the patterns of matchups of the U.S Open to the French Open in a case involving Nadal and Federer at all is hilarious. Heck at the U.S Open it is feasible to see Federer himself possibly beating Nadal had they played, even today.

So for now Nadal is still the top clay courter, while Djokovic has yet to even so much as make a FO final in his entire career. Anyway FO title + Monte Carlo title + Rome and Madrid finals >> Rome and Madrid titles + FO semis. Perhaps that will change this year (I in fact predicted Djokovic to win the French this year) but up to now Djokovic has not done enough to merit claim as the best even current clay courter.

Meanwhile in career significance it is something like this:

1. Nadal







12. Federer
















57. Djokovic

At the time being Djokovic is light years behind Federer in career greatness on clay, never mind Nadal.
 
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borg number one

borg number one

Legend
No, of course not, but Djokovic will be very dangerous for anyone at the French Open. I still think Nadal is the favorite for the FO. Tournaments like Monte Carlo and Rome will be really quite telling, but I think we may see a more offensive Nadal on red clay vs. Djokovic, combined with his usual consistency. I think that Nadal believes that he can beat Djokovic, especially on red clay in a five setter at Roland Garros.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
borg number one said:
No, of course not, but Djokovic will be very dangerous for anyone at the French Open. I still think Nadal is the favorite for the FO. Tournaments like Monte Carlo and Rome will be really quite telling, but I think we may see a more offensive Nadal on red clay vs. Djokovic, combined with his usual consistency. I think that Nadal believes that he can beat Djokovic, especially on red clay in a five setter at Roland Garros.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. I think Nadal will be the one to stop Nole winning 4 on the trottertrons.
 
ViscaB

ViscaB

Hall of Fame
Prime Nadal was the best claycourter ever. You need a few RG wins to be considered a very good claycourter even.
 
Mike Sams

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
MichaelNadal said:
Considering how close the AO was, as long as Rafa doesn't take a mental dip bc of the loss, he should be fine as long as he doesn't lose in the lead-ups to Roland Garros.
Click to expand...

They use a faster surface and faster balls at RG. Why do you think Federer had a much better performance in the final last year as opposed to previous years? 7-6, 7-5, 5-7 in the first 3 sets against Nadal was an unusual scoreline for somebody like Federer. To keep it that close on clay with that troubled backhand. The surface at RG plays nothing like Monte Carlo. I think Djokovic has a great chance if RG plays the same way as last year.
 
jamesblakefan#1

jamesblakefan#1

G.O.A.T.
So Novak can go on a run of 4 in a row at RG? I know the clay field is weak as hell, but one it's impossible to think the guy will play THIS well for 4 more years and be able to win 4. He's already 24 but has had his fair share of niggling injuries. With his gamestyle, he WILL break down. It's not a matter of if, but when.
 
Wolfman Jack

Wolfman Jack

Banned
Djokovic better than Nadal as a clay court player? LOL. Gotta love bandwagons.

Not better on grass either.

But he has a nice 7-0 streak in all surfaces, I agree about that.
 
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