It's official: Masters MUST go back to best of 5

[Lleytonstation]

For finals and maybe even SF.

Not only will this up the value of these masters but give these young kids some much needed experience.

Yes, the tour is embarrassing and these kids don't have the mental and physical fortitude. But this would possibly help push them in the right direction.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I agree, probably at least for SF and F. For starters Bo5 is just better, but also it prevents the top guys from winning everything.

That said, the problem now is that you have played Bo3 throughout almost the entirety of the Big 3 era, so if you go back to Bo5 even for the later rounds you are only further inflating the Big 3 era and records.

This is why sports leagues can't and shouldn't constantly screw with things.

 

[Lleytonstation]

I agree, probably at least for SF and F. For starters Bo5 is just better, but also it prevents the top guys from winning everything.

That said, the problem now is that you have played Bo3 throughout almost the entirety of the Big 3 era, so if you go back to Bo5 even for the later rounds you are only further inflating the Big 3 era and records.

This is why sports leagues can't and shouldn't constantly screw with things.

But I think at this point you have to make the call. You can't let this continue to happen on the tour.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

 

[TheNachoMan]

WTF finals should at least be BO5. Last match of the year should feel big.

 

[Lleytonstation]

WTF finals should at least be BO5. Last match of the year should feel big.

That isn't going to change anything. They need.any matches.

 

[mike danny]

I expected a thread, @Lleytonstation

But you're right. It is as clear as daylight that these guys can't handle BO5 and only win bigger titles because they're BO3 and Big 3 + Murray no longer give it their best at them.

 

[big ted]

or change GS's to best of 3 for these zoomers

 

[-NN-]

They're more likely to make Slams Bo3 for early rounds then return to Bo5 Masters finals.


.....

Spoiler: ...

 

[Marfrilau]

So you want Djokovic and Nadal to sweep all tournaments instead of just slams?

 

[darthrafa]

i always repeat the lack of it affects the young
but it looks they wait for the change of gs instead

 

[mike danny]

So you want Djokovic and Nadal to sweep all tournaments instead of just slams?

This way we get a clearer picture of things. Next Gen only get hyped up because of winning these titles in BO3 but sucking in BO5.

 

[Lleytonstation]

This way we get a clearer picture of things. Next Gen only get hyped up because of winning these titles in BO3 but sucking in BO5.

They get encouragement for going 5 haha.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

But I think at this point you have to make the call. You can't let this continue to happen on the tour.

I agree.

I actually also think players should be permitted to enter no more than 6 Masters per season. That would really help spread the wealth. Mandatory Masters has been terrible in the Big 3 era.

 

[Terenigma]

Not for the whole tournament or it would drag on like some slam matches do but I would be absolutely for a B05 final.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

 

[Lleytonstation]

Not for the whole tournament or it would drag on like some slam matches do but I would be absolutely for a B05 final.

Yeah just the SF and final. Maybe only have IW and another have SF and final and the rest just finals.

 

[Service Ace]

And while we’re at it get rid of the the 5th set tiebreaks in slams. So many epic moments we’ll never get back because incompetent organizers overreacted to Isner/Mahut.

 

[Biotic]

IW, Miami, Rome, YEC for sure. The rest not so much.

 

[ojo rojo]

Let's make it best of 7
Winner fights a bear

 

[FrontHeadlock]

IW, Miami, Rome, YEC for sure. The rest not so much.

(Miami Masters Tournament Director)

 

[Lebsta]

For semis and finals, yes agreed. Something has to be done get these youngsters more mentally disciplined and focused. This can only be done by forcing the slam experience onto them in the Masters

Witness these complete chokes after two sets up is distressing, and does not bode well for the future once Rafa & Novak retire

 

[Silverbullet96]

Djokovic came up when the Masters matches were already Bo3 though, and he's playing Bo5 just fine.

 

[Phoenix*]

Any self respecting event should have a bo5 final.

 

[Europa1]

For finals and maybe even SF.

Not only will this up the value of these masters but give these young kids some much needed experience.

Yes, the tour is embarrassing and these kids don't have the mental and physical fortitude. But this would possibly help push them in the right direction.

It's likely the single biggest reason for lack of new slam winners. Best of three events are not "warm-ups' for best of five majors.

 

[Lleytonstation]

Djokovic came up when the Masters matches were already Bo3 though, and he's playing Bo5 just fine.

Took him a while to get his fitness though.

 

[gjm127]

Thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/bo5-m1000s-impact-on-big-3-dominance.728653/

 

[gjm127]

Thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/bo5-m1000s-impact-on-big-3-dominance.728653/

Takeaway is that they don't even reach that many M1000 Finals anyway to get that experience lol

 

[WildRevolver]

I have felt this is one of the top 3 reasons Rafa and Novak have killed the careers of two generations now. If you are not born with the clutch gene, and few are, it has to be developed. It's pretty hard to develop it in the most high-stakes matches possible.

 

[Europa1]

One of the biggest reasons for the lack of new slam winners. Bo3 are not "warm-ups" for B05. Have at least one Bo5 Masters before each Major. Bring B05 back to WTF.

DUPE..apologies

 

[helterskelter]

In my opinion, the ideal format for the MS events is this:

1) All MS events have the same format in every way listed below.
2) 64-player draws, so no byes and six rounds throughout. Thus, one round fewer than in slams and one round more than 500s. [500s should all have 32-player draws. 250s should too in an ideal world - byes have no place in the pro tour].
3) Best of five for QF, SF, and F. [500s should have best of five finals but otherwise be best of three; 250s fine with best of three finals].
4) 10-day events, so as to allow rest days between QF and SF and between SF and F.
5) A break of at least three days between all MS events, so if one ends on a Sunday, the next doesn't start until the Thursday.

 

[Silverbullet96]

Took him a while to get his fitness though.

I would say that was a lot because of his gluten intolerance.

 

[Lleytonstation]

In my opinion, the ideal format for the MS events is this:

1) All MS events have the same format in every way listed below.
2) 64-player draws, so no byes and six rounds throughout. Thus, one round fewer than in slams and one round more than 500s. [500s should all have 32-player draws. 250s should too in an ideal world - byes have no place in the pro tour].
3) Best of five for QF, SF, and F. [500s should have best of five finals but otherwise be best of three; 250s fine with best of three finals].
4) 10-day events, so as to allow rest days between QF and SF and between SF and F.
5) A break of at least three days between all MS events, so if one ends on a Sunday, the next doesn't start until the Thursday.

Yep but the tour is actually trying to do the opposite.

 

[helterskelter]

Yep but the tour is actually trying to do the opposite.

Yep but if the tour is actually trying to do something, you know it should be trying to do the opposite.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

In my opinion, the ideal format for the MS events is this:

1) All MS events have the same format in every way listed below.
2) 64-player draws, so no byes and six rounds throughout. Thus, one round fewer than in slams and one round more than 500s. [500s should all have 32-player draws. 250s should too in an ideal world - byes have no place in the pro tour].
3) Best of five for QF, SF, and F. [500s should have best of five finals but otherwise be best of three; 250s fine with best of three finals].
4) 10-day events, so as to allow rest days between QF and SF and between SF and F.
5) A break of at least three days between all MS events, so if one ends on a Sunday, the next doesn't start until the Thursday.

I don't mind the back-to-back as it makes it harder on players to go deep at every event.

I also don't mind the byes if it gets more people in the event. Why does it matter to you if a Masters has a 96-player draw? Think of it less as a tournament with byes and more like a "play-in" round.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

One of the biggest reasons for the lack of new slam winners. Bo3 are not "warm-ups" for B05. Have at least one Bo5 Masters before each Major. Bring B05 back to WTF.

DUPE..apologies

This is a great point, and now I think I fully agree with getting back Bo5 for SF and F.

That said, it needs to be at all the Masters not just WTF. WTF has way too small a draw. It's fine to also do it at the WTF; it just shouldn't be the only place that transitions to Bo5.

 

[socallefty]

No, I don’t need more tennis on my TV apart from 8 weekends a year at the Slams. Unless there are stars playing, I find other 5-set matches too long at Slams also. I like my entertainment in bite-sized chunks - don’t need a piece of steak every time.

Even when I go to IW in person, I like watching many matches in multiple stadiums and don’t want any 4-hour matches. The 5-set format also makes the Slams more special and I like that.

 

[helterskelter]

I don't mind the back-to-back as it makes it harder on players to go deep at every event.

I also don't mind the byes if it gets more people in the event. Why does it matter to you if a Masters has a 96-player draw? Think of it less as a tournament with byes and more like a "play-in" round.

I can accept the 96-player draws at Indian Wells and Miami more easily than 48 or 56 player draws. It should be 64 minimum, so that MS events require six wins and so require more wins than 500s and 250s. If they want to add a preliminary round, I suppose that's okay.

Back to back is bad for the tournaments as it encourages withdrawals and that's not good for the spectators. And withdrawals after the draw is made unbalance the draw.

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic came up when the Masters matches were already Bo3 though, and he's playing Bo5 just fine.

He won his first masters title in a BO5 final.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I can accept the 96-player draws at Indian Wells and Miami more easily than 48 or 56 player draws. It should be 64 minimum, so that MS events require six wins and so require more wins than 500s and 250s. If they want to add a preliminary round, I suppose that's okay.

Back to back is bad for the tournaments as it encourages withdrawals and that's not good for the spectators. And withdrawals after the draw is made unbalance the draw.

Good points. I agree.

 

[Silverbullet96]

I think the tour is doing just normal other than Djokodal, who are just superior to the average human beings, I'd say to just wait out this Djokodal era. No need to change something that isn't broken.

 

[Entername]

WTF finals should at least be BO5. Last match of the year should feel big.

I thought it was awful that the Olympics took away BO5 in the finals. Seeing Zedrot cruise to a title in the gold medal match last year was very meh

 

[Silverbullet96]

He won his first masters title in a BO5 final.

Which was his only Bo5 match at non-slam events I assume ?

 

[Mustard]

As far as I recall, the Canadian Open and Cincinnati finals were always best of 3 sets, Miami finals were for some years (1991-1995) and Indian Wells finals for a few years (2002-2004). Best of 3 sets masters finals would only happen outside of those because of weather issues. But yes, getting rid of best of 5 sets masters and yec finals was a mistake. They used to help in player development by being a big match outside of a major that was over that best of 5 sets format. Davis Cup helped in this regard as well.

When we think of epic early Nadal, the Rome finals of 2005 and 2006 come to mind, 5 set epics that went over 5 hours. Federer won plenty of his masters titles over best of 5 sets early on, including a 4-set win over Coria at 2004 Hamburg. Djokovic won the very last best of 5 sets masters final at 2007 Miami, beating Canas in the final.

 

[mike danny]

Which was his only Bo5 match at non-slam events I assume ?

Yes, but still, he proved himself capable of handling a BO5 match at not even 20 yet. These guys in their mid 20's still can't do it.

 

[Silverbullet96]

Yes, but still, he proved himself capable of handling a BO5 match at not even 20 yet. These guys in their mid 20's still can't do it.

I still feel like we wouldn't be having this conversation if Djokodal didn't exist, they are just so above normal human beings that other hard working talented players look inept in comparison.

 

[The Fedfather]

I agree but just because it makes sense for the Masters finals to be a bigger event. But as far as the NextGen's capability to challenge Djokodal, it's not about the format. If those players who have the skill to beat the oldies valued Masters as much as Slams and felt as much pressure in them, they wouldn't be winning BO3 matches against Djokodal either. With every other match where the NextGen's game starts falling apart after they take the lead, it becomes more clear that it's their head, not their body or skill causing problems.

 

[mike danny]

I still feel like we wouldn't be having this conversation if Djokodal didn't exist, they are just so above normal human beings that other hard working talented players look inept in comparison.

Federer was too, but he had actual legit younger players that made him look ordinary.

 

[Mustard]

Which was his only Bo5 match at non-slam events I assume ?

Davis Cup.

 

[crimson87]

All finals should be 5 setters. Even 250s.