Mixed should generate strikes

[Cindysphinx]

Lost a mixed 8.0 match -1 and -3. Opponents were a solid 4.5C woman and her 3.5S guy partner.

Hmmm. He didn't play like most 3.5 guys I know. His volley put-aways were solid. His 1HBH return could handle my 4.0 partner's awesome serve. He could come to net.

After the match, I looked him up.

In 2012, he played only fall 7.5 mixed combo as a 3.5S. He went 4-1. In two of the wins, he had a 3.5 partner. Because it was mixed combo, these matches did not generate a "M" rating, so he remains a 3.5S.

In 2013, he has played 8.0 mixed with 4.5C women. He is 8-0 in our league for 8.0 and 7.0. For 8.0, he has handed out one double-bagel, gave up four games to me and my partner, and had gave up 6 games in another win. He has some solid wins at 7.0 mixed that would almost certainly generate strikes.

Look. Maybe the algorithm isn't well-suited to figuring out DQs for mixed, but I think we really need three strikes DQ in mixed.

I mean, think about it. The only players who cannot be DQ'd in USTA league are C/B players (who earned their rating fair and square) and self-rated sandbaggers in mixed.

It was very frustrating in our match. We knew we couldn't hurt the 4.5 woman much. All we could do is go after the 3.5 guy and see if we could prey on his lack of consistency. Nope. We couldn't. On account of how he had 4.0 consistency.

Why do we tolerate this?

 

[Mike Y]

I don't know why Combo and Mixed don't count for people's ratings. For many people, they have more matches in Mixed + Combo than they do in Adult League, so if anything it would lead to a more accurate rating.

But yes, I know of a few people who do that. They would just play Combo and Mixed at the 3.5 level, even though they are much better than that rating, and thus only play with better partners against weaker teams than they would in Adult League. And meanwhile they would not generate a computer rating, and be immune to either getting bumped up or getting strikes. The ones I know of eventually got an "M" rating and bumped up, but it took a few years. Really lame.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I don't know why Combo and Mixed don't count for people's ratings. For many people, they have more matches in Mixed + Combo than they do in Adult League, so if anything it would lead to a more accurate rating.

But yes, I know of a few people who do that. They would just play Combo and Mixed at the 3.5 level, even though they are much better than that rating, and thus only play with better partners against weaker teams than they would in Adult League. And meanwhile they would not generate a computer rating, and be immune to either getting bumped up or getting strikes. The ones I know of eventually got an "M" rating and bumped up, but it took a few years. Really lame.

I think it is way worse in mixed than in combo.

I have played combo for many years, and I have never come across a player who was clearly sandbagging and playing the kinds of games you describe.

Part of it, perhaps, is that there's no real payoff. You would have to sandbag through the winter combo season. Then you wait until the Districts in October. Then you get to play a maximum of 4 matches before you are declared Sandbagging Ladies 7.5 Champion. Big deal.

With mixed sandbagging, you at least can get a trip to Sectionals and Nationals out of it. Which is why mixed needs three strikes.

 

[OrangePower]

From a mathematical point of view, any ratings based on mixed are going to be very unreliable, due to the potentially huge gap in abilities between the players on the court (eg male 4.5s and female 3.5s).

That's probably why mixed exclusive ratings can't be used for anything else, and a person having such a rating needs to self-rate in order to play regular league.

Maybe that's also why USTA is reluctant to hand out strikes based on mixed.

I would think any self-respecting sandbagger wouldn't bother with mixed. Well, maybe as sandbagging practice for the real thing

 

[Cindysphinx]

On the contrary . . .

If your life will not be complete without a trip to league nationals, mixed is the way to go. You can self-rate as low as you want, crush everyone and live the dream.

Sandbagging your way to nationals in Adult is much tougher. You have to be careful about strikes and cheat and throw games to manage your rating.

Even if strikes in mixed would be unreliable, the deterrent effect alone would be valuable.

 

[OrangePower]

On the contrary . . .

If your life will not be complete without a trip to league nationals, mixed is the way to go. You can self-rate as low as you want, crush everyone and live the dream.

Sandbagging your way to nationals in Adult is much tougher. You have to be careful about strikes and cheat and throw games to manage your rating.

Even if strikes in mixed would be unreliable, the deterrent effect alone would be valuable.

That's what I mean... what's the point of sandbagging if there is no challenge to doing it well?

P.S. I have resigned myself to an incomplete and meaningless life devoid of a trip to nationals... oh well.

 

[travlerajm]

Lost a mixed 8.0 match -1 and -3. Opponents were a solid 4.5C woman and her 3.5S guy partner.

Hmmm. He didn't play like most 3.5 guys I know. His volley put-aways were solid. His 1HBH return could handle my 4.0 partner's awesome serve. He could come to net.

After the match, I looked him up.

In 2012, he played only fall 7.5 mixed combo as a 3.5S. He went 4-1. In two of the wins, he had a 3.5 partner. Because it was mixed combo, these matches did not generate a "M" rating, so he remains a 3.5S.

In 2013, he has played 8.0 mixed with 4.5C women. He is 8-0 in our league for 8.0 and 7.0. For 8.0, he has handed out one double-bagel, gave up four games to me and my partner, and had gave up 6 games in another win. He has some solid wins at 7.0 mixed that would almost certainly generate strikes.

Look. Maybe the algorithm isn't well-suited to figuring out DQs for mixed, but I think we really need three strikes DQ in mixed.

I mean, think about it. The only players who cannot be DQ'd in USTA league are C/B players (who earned their rating fair and square) and self-rated sandbaggers in mixed.

It was very frustrating in our match. We knew we couldn't hurt the 4.5 woman much. All we could do is go after the 3.5 guy and see if we could prey on his lack of consistency. Nope. We couldn't. On account of how he had 4.0 consistency.

Why do we tolerate this?

2 threads in a row? You're really determined to get people like me kicked out of 8.0, huh?

First no 4.5 guys. Now no mixed specialists with puzzling ratings either?

 

[Cindysphinx]

2 threads in a row? You're really determined to get people like me kicked out of 8.0, huh?

First no 4.5 guys. Now no mixed specialists with puzzling ratings either?

Eeeyup.

I am trying to clear the path to becoming the Queen Bee of 8.0 mixed!

 

[Maui19]

You don't want highly rated players "playing down" in mixed, and you don't want lower rated players playing up at any level. That's a Goldilocks syndrome for sure.

I don't think you can put that fine an edge on ratings. Sometimes you are going to be overmatched, and sometimes you are going to overmatch your opponents. Even among evenly matched opponents, some days you just play terribly and don't provide a good match for the other team. That's just the way it is on sports.

 

[wrxinsc]

If a player has played in an adult league that season (in southern that league is 'spring league') than they will only generate dynamic ratings in that adult league (mixed won't count). If one only plays mixed they will receive a year end M (mixed exclusive) rating.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

A solid 3.5 guy will beat up on a 4.0 woman all day long and pretty convincingly. When I was C rated a 3.5 I could beat 4.0C rated women -0 -2 -3 at the most in our local leagues.

Also, if he's played mixed exclusively for at least 2 years, he should be an "M" rating. That's considered "Mixed Exclusive" rating and I know of one guy locally who that's all he played and was S rated for 2 years before getting his M rating and getting bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0. He too had a strong 3.5 game and because he played with his 4.5 wife all the time, he was excellent at the net and blocked serves back well. Sounds just like what you ran into. Chances are good though that if his partner was really a good 4.5, that the majority of consistency came from her during the match. BTW, at the same time this guy was a 3.5S and his wife was 4.5C, myself (a 3.5C at the time) playing with a 4.5C woman beat them a couple of times, but we had to play well and not mess around too much or we'd lose, so it's not unheard of to have a strong 8.0 team where the woman is a 4.5 and the guy is a 3.5. In fact, such a partnership is ALWAYS stronger than a 4.0 woman and 4.0 man.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I figured the reason he didn't generate an "M" rating was that he only played a season of mixed combo, not mixed.

Is it true that playing mixed only can generate a three-strikes DQ? I heard there is no three-strikes DQ in mixed.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

I figured the reason he didn't generate an "M" rating was that he only played a season of mixed combo, not mixed.

Is it true that playing mixed only can generate a three-strikes DQ? I heard there is no three-strikes DQ in mixed.

Ya, Combo anything doesn't count at all towards your rating. He could be sandbagging, but when I was a 3.5 according to the computer I used to play extremely well in doubles (same sex or mixed) and sucked at singles due to poor mental game (I still kinda do and I'm working on that). People would constantly challenge the fact that I was 3.5 and played so well in doubles/mixed and couldn't understand why I hadn't been bumped yet. Trust me, I called and called begging to get bumped and state never allowed it. They said to win more and I'd move up. So, I just went with that for a while and played up no matter what, even if I lost. I was more comfortable in the higher league anyway since I like pace more than push tactics. That's one of the reason why I kept losing in 3.5. Too many dinkers and pushers. That would just annoy me to the point of self-implosion on the court.


BTW, to give you an example of how badly people manipulate the system, especially with Combo that doesn't rate. I know of a team who all they play is Combo and all their players are S rated. Needless to say, they always make it to the finals at state, year after year. According to the USTA Southern directors, this is going to be stopped eventually. They just need to get the idiot committees to agree upon some kind of guideline for rating. Not all Combo leagues are set rules, that's why they don't count as rating. For example, some will only allow you to play a combo pair of .5 difference between them. Other places have no difference of rating required, so they could play a 3.0 and a 5.0 together at 8.0 and win all day long due to the 5.0 player.

 

[andfor]

No strikes for mixed or combo. There's no way to account for the differences.

That said like a mixed rating, for those who play combo only, they should get a combo rating.

 

[jc4.0]

Sounds like you lost.

 

[Maui19]

Sounds like you lost.

Great call, since the first sentence in the OP's post reads: "Lost a mixed 8.0 match -1 and -3." :lol:

 

[ryan sc]

It's pretty simple as to why mixed and combo don't generate strikes . For instance if your an upper echelon player in your rating and had a good year and are worried of getting bumped up then you would just start tanking mixed or combo matches . I'm a 4.5 B player and say I went undefeated all year in my 4.5 spring adult season . Every year I play 9.0 mixed & 9.5 combo . Then I would play 8.0 mixed & 8.5 combo and tank those league matches and still play hard in 4.5 ,9.0 and 9.5 . That would protect your rating to keep from getting bumped . Hope this makes sense . So it's a good thing that these don't count .

 

[Topaz]

Cindy, it was against TH! Her 3.5s are very rarely 'real' 3.5s. :-/

 

[dcdoorknob]

Seems like a 1 and 3 score would be unlikely to generate a strike even in a normal league unless both of the partners on the losing team were like at the tippity tip top of their levels to begin with.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Seems like a 1 and 3 score would be unlikely to generate a strike even in a normal league unless both of the partners on the losing team were like at the tippity tip top of their levels to begin with.

He has handed out one double-bagel, so that almost certainly has to be a strike.

I would think my partner is at the tippy top of his level, especially since he wins at singles.

Me? At the middle of 4.0. At best. On a good day, with the wind at my back.

Then again, I am still unsure whether mixed generates strikes if a self-rate only plays mixed . . . .

 

[NLBwell]

Does the computer count 6-0, 6-0 scores? I heard that it didn't enter into the computer calculations.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I believe double bagels count for strikes, but may or may not count for purposes of calculating whether a person moves up or moves down.

 

[Govnor]

To me (as a non USTA player) I think a Self rate should generate strikes whatever the type of league. Sure, honest mistakes can be made, but if the Self Rate is a decent player, they know which level they generally are.

 

[cknobman]

Cindy,

Not trying to be a butt here but after two threads b!tching about mxied maybe this type of tennis isnt your thing.

You, of all people, should know that USTA leagues are by no means perfect and there are always people "gaming" the system.

Take your loss and move on.

After playing just about every type of USTA league offered I have learned that mixed is by far the most unpredictable and to use that league as a learning experience. Mixed is a great time to work on areas of your game that dont get exploited as much when your playing in your own gender.

I know its USTA and there are records, playoffs, and beyond involved; but your going to have to get thicker skin or just stop playing mixed.

 

[tennismonkey]

just food for thought cindy -- but my team's 4.0M/4.0F pairing took your opponents to third set tiebreak. they lost but it was close.

my teammates are good players but not sandbagging out of rate 4.0's.

maybe that 3.5 guy you played is a strong 3.5 with a subset of skills that work really well in dubs - especially mixed dubs.

 

[Nellie]

I have a friend who got a self-rate DQ (Mid-Atlantic) from playing mixed about 4 years ago after he won his first four matches. But now that I think of it, I think the rules may have changed.

But I do see some abuses that look something like this:
5.5 player plays on 10.0 team with 4.5 partner. They win most matches, but 5.5 player gets a 5.0 computer rating. Next year, the player plays 9.0 mixed with a 4.0 partner and destroys people, but oddly gets moved to 4.5 mixed rating. The third year, the same player (as a computer-rated 4.5) goes to nationals in 8.0 mixed, 9.0 mixed, and 4.5 league play, and people wonder how it happened.

 

[Cindysphinx]

just food for thought cindy -- but my team's 4.0M/4.0F pairing took your opponents to third set tiebreak. they lost but it was close.

my teammates are good players but not sandbagging out of rate 4.0's.

maybe that 3.5 guy you played is a strong 3.5 with a subset of skills that work really well in dubs - especially mixed dubs.

Oh sure. It's all about matchups, definitely.

After umpteen seasons playing 7.0 mixed, I feel like I know a 3.5 dude when I see one.

I don't mind self rates . I do think it is important to have three strike to have some sort of policing, though.

 

[kylebarendrick]

On the one hand, Norcal makes it clear that even though combo and mixed don't generate strikes, players and captains will be held responsible for self-rating correctly. Self-rate grievances based on playing history (guy only plays combo and has never lost a set for instance) can result in sanctions against both the player and the captain.

On the other hand, I've never actually seen this happen.

The end result? You can't take mixed and combo seriously. There really are people that play these almost exclusively since they can maintain their "too low" rating for years. Congrats to them on another great combo season...

 

[dunlop_fort_knox]

i consulted the algorithm in my head and it spit out this: he's a ringer.

 

[woodrow1029]

Lost a mixed 8.0 match -1 and -3.

Sounds like you lost.

Great call JC! Nothing gets by you these days.

 

[andfor]

I've always been told by those close to the NTRP system, that winning 4 games is considered competitive.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Great call JC! Nothing gets by you these days.

Funny thing, though.

There are some people who don't understand a score if only the losers' score is given.

My captain emailed me after a match asking for the scores. I replied "We won, -2 and -3." She had no idea what that meant.

Which can only mean one thing: JC is my captain!

 

[sureshs]

I thought you played so bad that you got negative scores

 

[rainman007]

ALL Matches and all scores should count for your rating.if you win 6-0 6-0 the usta could at least put in 12-1 for its algorithm... all match formats, tournaments, mixed, combo tri-level, adult, combo mixed, etc.... but they dont

 

[wrxinsc]

ALL Matches and all scores should count for your rating.if you win 6-0 6-0 the usta could at least put in 12-1 for its algorithm... all match formats, tournaments, mixed, combo tri-level, adult, combo mixed, etc.... but they dont

so they may or may not count 0,0 completed matches. have you discussed with the usta folks in charge of this? or just interwebz info?

 

[Humble_Warrior]

I believe (from my own situation) that combine matches count against ones rating. I played for several years at the M4.0 level and then left USTA for 3-4 years. I came back and self rated at 3.5 and played about 5 matches winning 4 and losing one against opponents who were being bumped to 4.0. My partner for that match was also being bumped up. I also won one match in the 4.0 slot. To make a long story short, come summer league I was moved back up to 4.0.

 

[schmke]

I believe (from my own situation) that combine matches count against ones rating. I played for several years at the M4.0 level and then left USTA for 3-4 years. I came back and self rated at 3.5 and played about 5 matches winning 4 and losing one against opponents who were being bumped to 4.0. My partner for that match was also being bumped up. I also won one match in the 4.0 slot. To make a long story short, come summer league I was moved back up to 4.0.

What section/district are you in? Each one does have some discretion about what leagues to include in rating calculations.

 

[Topaz]

I believe (from my own situation) that combine matches count against ones rating. I played for several years at the M4.0 level and then left USTA for 3-4 years. I came back and self rated at 3.5 and played about 5 matches winning 4 and losing one against opponents who were being bumped to 4.0. My partner for that match was also being bumped up. I also won one match in the 4.0 slot. To make a long story short, come summer league I was moved back up to 4.0.

Do you mean combo mixed?

If you *only* play mixed (or combo mixed) then yes, it will count toward your rating.

If you play adult in addition to any other type of mixed, then *only* your adult results will be used toward your rating.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Do you mean combo mixed?

If you *only* play mixed (or combo mixed) then yes, it will count toward your rating.

If you play adult in addition to any other type of mixed, then *only* your adult results will be used toward your rating.

Are you sure that playing only combo mixed will generate a "M" rating?

The fellow I described played five matches in fall mixed combo and still has a "S" rating.

Then again . . .

He played two matches in early October, took a 1-month hiatus, and then played four more matches beginning in mid-November. One could wonder if his hiatus was to make sure he didn't generate a 4.0M rating when new ratings were calculated for 2013 . . .

Nah. That would never happen. . . .

 

[Humble_Warrior]

Do you mean combo mixed?

If you *only* play mixed (or combo mixed) then yes, it will count toward your rating.

If you play adult in addition to any other type of mixed, then *only* your adult results will be used toward your rating.

It was Mid-Atlantic. I'm sure all my partners were male.

 

[Topaz]

Title of the post says mixed...so I assumed we were talking about mixed. Sooooo sorry. :roll:

 

[Topaz]

Are you sure that playing only combo mixed will generate a "M" rating?

The fellow I described played five matches in fall mixed combo and still has a "S" rating.

Then again . . .

He played two matches in early October, took a 1-month hiatus, and then played four more matches beginning in mid-November. One could wonder if his hiatus was to make sure he didn't generate a 4.0M rating when new ratings were calculated for 2013 . . .

Nah. That would never happen. . . .

Ok, you know that ANY player with TH is likely getting told exactly what to or not to do to keep a certain rating. No, not sure about mixed combo. But I do know that people who only play mixed, and try to register for with an 'M' rating for an adult team have to re-self rate now. I think that was new last year? Maybe they have to re-self rate for a new season regardless now.

But you know, and I know you know (*eyebrow*) that you cant' trust the ratings on TH's people!

 

[Humble_Warrior]

Title of the post says mixed...so I assumed we were talking about mixed. Sooooo sorry. :roll:

No problem. I saw the title as well, but questioned a comment that said mixed and combo leagues didn't generate strikes or didn't count towards ones rating. Just wondered if this was true, then how was my situation different then the norm?