Pat Cash : I have heard Nadal say this numerous times. Stop complaining !

[Hawaiian grip]

I don't understand Nadal's point for Changing WTF surface, just like Slams are played on their particular surface , Wtf is played on Low bouncing hard courts indoors , that's just it.

I understand that many disagree with Nadal on this, and I'm OK with it. However, I do reckon there is a point to be made that the tournament featuring the eight best players of the season exclusively should rotate the surface, because of its own nature, which is different from that of the rest of the tournies, slams included. You can't seriously sell it as the truly World Tour Finals if it's just another indoor HC event that just happens to feature the eight best players on tour.

Now if you rotate the surface and conditions you'll be truly representing the tour variety as well as showing the world how the eight best players in the world fare while facing each other in different conditions, not in the same ones year after year.

 

[peakin11mugs]

What a dumb thing to say. It’s like fed saying it’s not fair Rolland Garros is played on clay it should be fast low bouncing indoors and so should AO and USO lol

Anyway this WTF field is completely ridiculous. The top player is a 36 year old father of four. Nadal better win it or it’s a joke

 

[Hawaiian grip]

I don't understand Nadal's point for Changing WTF surface, just like Slams are played on their particular surface , Wtf is played on Low bouncing hard courts indoors , that's just it.

I understand that many disagree with Nadal on this, and I'm OK with it. However, I do reckon there is a point to be made that the tournament featuring the eight best players of the season exclusively should rotate the surface, because of its own nature, which is different from that of the rest of the tournies, slams included. You can't seriously sell it as the truly World Tour Finals if it's just another indoor HC event that just happens to feature the eight best players on tour.

Now if you rotate the surface and conditions you'll be truly representing the tour variety as well as showing the world how the eight best players in the world fare while facing each other in different conditions, not in the same ones year after year. It would actually boost the event prestige a lot. The way it is it's just a "special" indoor HC event, but in no way a faithful representation of how the best players in the world fare against each other... Again, unless we want to call it the Indoor Hard Court Season finals. Then I'm okay with it.

 

[Hawaiian grip]

EDIT: Double post. What's the matter with the forum?

 

[octobrina10]

Mr. Pat Cash, you need to stop complaining about Rafa!

 

[tennisaddict]

Mr. Pat Cash, you need to stop complaining about Rafa!

Mr Pat cash is a Rafahater and Fed comrade ?

 

[sarmpas]

I thought Nadal was the greatest problem solver in tennis of the currently active players.

 

[Soul_Evisceration]

Omg, I guess what you're having, as soon as I pull up to your place lmao

Haha I like to make fresh meals once in a while and crack a good wine for complimentary measures. Yeah sure bring up some company lol.

 

[Gazelle]

I thought Nadal was the greatest problem solver in tennis of the currently active players.

Only when the problems solve themselves.

 

[fedfan39]

WTF is just like any other tennis tournament and not an exhibition like Nadal seems to think.

The format of the WTF is certainly different, but it's just like any other tournament with its set surface.

Nadal chose to train for clay courts. And he did exceedingly well. Too bad though - it comes at a price.

 

[Tennisanity]

Why doesn't Nadal complain that Cincinnati is not on clay?

 

[every7]

Does anyone know where we can find the examples of Nadal speaking about this that Cash is referring to?

 

[Towser83]

Of course Nadal wants to play it on clay because he's almost unbeatable on clay, he never really says lets play it on grass as well (at least I can't recall him saying that). I think first it makes no sense to change surface for one event, also indoor deserves a big event. Would Nadal prefer if the WTF had been rotated and the AO had always been on an indoor court?

WTF is indoors, and presents a challenge in the same way other events which don't change their surface do. Nadal has always met these challenges and really it's not beyond him to do so again. I wish he'd just relish the challenge like he's always done because that's one of the things I most admire about him. Call him a dirtballer? He wins Wimbledon. Say he can't win on HC? Wins AO beating Federer there. Say he can't win the USO? Wins USO. Say it was a fluke? Wins it again. Say he hasn't won a HC title in years? He wins the US Open. Again.

With the wtf there's been Federer and Djokovic there winning multiple titles but Nadal has beaten both of them at the event. There is no reason he can't beat anyone there on that surface, it's just not 99% in his favour like most clay events are (though I don't think it would be as easy as MC or RG) By contrast Federer had the almost unbeatable Nadal to contend with at RG, but I doubt Nadal would have been happy to make RG a grass or indoor HC event for even one year in the last 12, just to make it "fair"

Another interesting thought, that if you did swap between HC, grass and clay, given the amount of events he's missed it's possible he'd still not have won it. In the years Nadal has competed let's say it was
2006 - Grass,
2007 - HC
2008 - Clay but Nadal did not play that year
2009 - Grass
2010 - HC
2011 - Clay (but vs Djokovic that year who had beaten him twice on clay in straight sets, not the favourite...)
2012 - Grass, didn't play
2013 - HC
2014 - Clay but didn't play
2015 - Grass
2016 - HC but didn't play

maybe this year would be his year. Or would he have played in 2014 and 2008 if it were on clay?

 

[TheFifthSet]

I think people are being a little harsh on Nadal, but it's not surprising that he's getting flak. Guy is kind-of-but-not-really-but-still advocating for a change of surface for one of the biggest events in tennis, and clearly only doing so out of self-interest. I could see why that's off-putting.

Regardless of what's on the line for Nadal, it's an utterly ridiculous suggestion. The indoor season is so limited to begin with, why shouldn't the year-end tournament be the premier indoor event?

 

[timnz]

How could you play on grass in November? Somewhere in Australia would have to maintain a top-class grass court that would be played on every three years?

Come to New Zealand! The players would be welcome. I would convert my front garden once every 3 years!

 

[tennisaddict]

I think people are being a little harsh on Nadal, but it's not surprising that he's getting flak. Guy is kind-of-but-not-really-but-still advocating for a change of surface for one of the biggest events in tennis, and clearly only doing so out of self-interest. I could see why that's off-putting.

Regardless of what's on the line for Nadal, it's an utterly ridiculous suggestion. The indoor season is so limited to begin with, why shouldn't the year-end tournament be the premier indoor event?

When asked about the new changes being introduced in Milan both Fed and Rafa said they were not really for any changes , but for entirely different reasons :

Fed : A sport with a long tradition , changes need to be considered carefully

Rafa : I don't like these changes , you make whatever change you want as they are not going to be introduced before my career ends

 

[ADuck]

Of course Nadal wants to play it on clay because he's almost unbeatable on clay, he never really says lets play it on grass as well (at least I can't recall him saying that). I think first it makes no sense to change surface for one event, also indoor deserves a big event. Would Nadal prefer if the WTF had been rotated and the AO had always been on an indoor court?

WTF is indoors, and presents a challenge in the same way other events which don't change their surface do. Nadal has always met these challenges and really it's not beyond him to do so again. I wish he'd just relish the challenge like he's always done because that's one of the things I most admire about him. Call him a dirtballer? He wins Wimbledon. Say he can't win on HC? Wins AO beating Federer there. Say he can't win the USO? Wins USO. Say it was a fluke? Wins it again. Say he hasn't won a HC title in years? He wins the US Open. Again.

With the wtf there's been Federer and Djokovic there winning multiple titles but Nadal has beaten both of them at the event. There is no reason he can't beat anyone there on that surface, it's just not 99% in his favour like most clay events are (though I don't think it would be as easy as MC or RG) By contrast Federer had the almost unbeatable Nadal to contend with at RG, but I doubt Nadal would have been happy to make RG a grass or indoor HC event for even one year in the last 12, just to make it "fair"

Another interesting thought, that if you did swap between HC, grass and clay, given the amount of events he's missed it's possible he'd still not have won it. In the years Nadal has competed let's say it was
2006 - Grass,
2007 - HC
2008 - Clay but Nadal did not play that year
2009 - Grass
2010 - HC
2011 - Clay (but vs Djokovic that year who had beaten him twice on clay in straight sets, not the favourite...)
2012 - Grass, didn't play
2013 - HC
2014 - Clay but didn't play
2015 - Grass
2016 - HC but didn't play

maybe this year would be his year. Or would he have played in 2014 and 2008 if it were on clay?

Whilst I mostly agree with you that WTF should not change surface, you're still misrepresnting Nadal's argument by framing it in a way you like. You've ignored WHY he wants the change, because to qualify for the WTF you have to play on all surfaces. And unlike Slams and Masters, there are not multiple tournaments on each surface (There's no grass on masters so one could argue that decreases the value of all masters), so asking to change RG to grass is a TOTALLY different thing from asking to change WTF to grass/clay. If you're going to write a fair and just post, consider all sides of the argument.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Whilst I mostly agree with you that WTF should not change surface, you're still misrepresnting Nadal's argument by framing it in a way you like. You've ignored WHY he wants the change, because to qualify for the WTF you have to play on all surfaces. And unlike Slams and Masters, there are not multiple tournaments on each surface (There's no grass on masters so one could argue that decreases the value of all masters), so asking to change RG to grass is a TOTALLY different thing from asking to change WTF to grass/clay. If you're going to write a fair and just post, consider all sides of the argument.

All due respect but to get high seedings for slams and other events, you need be winning a good amount of matches everywhere also. Nadal gets high seedings into top HC events on the bulk of his clay points, so why should the WTF be any different? Some draws have 128 players, others 96, others 64, others 32, and this one 8.

 

[timnz]

How could you play on grass in November? Somewhere in Australia would have to maintain a top-class grass court that would be played on every three years?

Come to New Zealand! The players would be welcome. I would convert my front garden once every 3 years!

 

[Soianka]

Pat A**

 

[ADuck]

All due respect but to get high seedings for slams and other events, you need be winning a good amount of matches everywhere also. Nadal gets high seedings into top HC events on the bulk of his clay points, so why should the WTF be any different? Some draws have 128 players, others 96, others 64, others 32, and this one 8.

I see your point, but WTF you qualify for, seedings are just seedings. 8 players is also a whole lot different than 128 players. The narrative of WTF is also different to that of a slam or master, so it's slightly different to other tournaments.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I see your point, but WTF you qualify for, seedings are just seedings. 8 players is also a whole lot different than 128 players. The narrative of WTF is also different to that of a slam or master, so it's slightly different to other tournaments.

Technically you are qualifying for everything, unless you are given special wild cards. It is just that the WTF being so elite, the qualifying is the most hardest, only 8 can make it.

 

[Towser83]

Whilst I mostly agree with you that WTF should not change surface, you're still misrepresnting Nadal's argument by framing it in a way you like. You've ignored WHY he wants the change, because to qualify for the WTF you have to play on all surfaces. And unlike Slams and Masters, there are not multiple tournaments on each surface (There's no grass on masters so one could argue that decreases the value of all masters), so asking to change RG to grass is a TOTALLY different thing from asking to change WTF to grass/clay. If you're going to write a fair and just post, consider all sides of the argument.

Yeah but you could say you get seeded and automatically qualify for slams on ranking points you earn all season in events on different surfaces. So a player can qualify and be seeded number 1 at Wimbledon without any points earned on grass. Likewise Federer might turn up next year at RG having earned his seeding based on HC events but then he has to play on clay.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think that's Nadal's reason, it's his justification. His reason is because he wants to play it on clay. The thing is I don't think it being on indoor HC stops Nadal from winning it.

As you said there's no Masters on grass so it's not as if the wtf not being on clay is a massive injustice, if anything put it on grass, or how about switch up MC between clay and grass... yeah that's just ridiculous.

Plus as I said, you can't switch back to clay or grass for one event at the end of the year, doesn't really make sense

 

[True Fanerer]

Lol deleted that's too bad. Too much controversy yo! Funny

 

[ADuck]

Technically you are qualifying for everything, unless you are given special wild cards. It is just that the WTF being so elite, the qualifying is the most hardest, only 8 can make it.

Right, that's partly true. I would like for WTF to be seen in the light you're describong it as, as just another indoor tournament with only 8 players instead of 64 or 128. But that isn't the narritive WTF is selling.

 

[TheFifthSet]

It would be nice if Nadal works Federer out here to close some Maestronian pie-holes.

That would no doubt be a desirable outcome for Nadal fans, but don't you agree that Rafa suggesting a change of surface for the tour finals is kind of self-serving?

 

[Towser83]

I see your point, but WTF you qualify for, seedings are just seedings. 8 players is also a whole lot different than 128 players. The narrative of WTF is also different to that of a slam or master, so it's slightly different to other tournaments.

if you're not in the top 128 seedings you don't qualify for a slam. In other events the seedings are less so if you're not in the top whatever places you don't qualify. It isn't THAT different. Sure there are some differences but another difference is this is played indoors on HC.

 

[Sport]

SOLUTION:

3 Masters 1000 on grass, 3 Masters 1000 on hard courts and 3 Masters 1000 on clay. Also, the WTF should alternate and be played some years on indoor hard courts, others on indoor grass and others on indoor clay (not only on indoor hard courts every year).

 

[Sport]

.

 

[Sport]

..

 

[Sport]

...

 

[Zeref]

I understand that many disagree with Nadal on this, and I'm OK with it. However, I do reckon there is a point to be made that the tournament featuring the eight best players of the season exclusively should rotate the surface, because of its own nature, which is different from that of the rest of the tournies, slams included. You can't seriously sell it as the truly World Tour Finals if it's just another indoor HC event that just happens to feature the eight best players on tour.

Now if you rotate the surface and conditions you'll be truly representing the tour variety as well as showing the world how the eight best players in the world fare while facing each other in different conditions, not in the same ones year after year. It would actually boost the event prestige a lot. The way it is it's just a "special" indoor HC event, but in no way a faithful representation of how the best players in the world fare against each other... Again, unless we want to call it the Indoor Hard Court Season finals. Then I'm okay with it.

I understand your view about WTF and it seems quite legit , but u gotta play whatever you are given and for most people hardcourts are most non extreme courts , that's the only reason tournament is played on it.

 

[augustobt]

Nadal is not asking for it to be an outdoor event. He is asking for it to be indoors on clay which is easily done. It should be rotated between clay hard and grass every three years if it is a true world championship as it was once called.

As for gaps in career I don't think it's as big as Federer failure to beat Nadal at Roland Garros as that's acknowledged as the hardest task in tennis.

As for Borg, he never won the USO so that's a far bigger hole in the resume.

Cash is a top guy so he is entitled to his view but it's a bit misguided on this point.

What a big pile of bullcrap.

Then I went and saw the
Joined:
Nov 4, 2017

 

[Towser83]

SOLUTION:

3 Masters 1000 on grass, 3 Masters 1000 on hard courts and 3 Masters 1000 on clay. Also, the WTF should alternate and be played some years on indoor hard courts, others on indoor grass and others on indoor clay (not only on indoor hard courts every year).

Only if one HC masters is on indoor hard, one clay masters is blue clay and one of the HC slams is fast indoor hard hahaha. One grass masters fast grass too

 

[TheAverageFedererFan]

Federer could complain as to why there are not THREE Grass court masters.

 

[ADuck]

As you said there's no Masters on grass so it's not as if the wtf not being on clay is a massive injustice

WTF should be put to a higher standard than masters. 1500 points are up for grabs. Also i'm not arguing it's a massive injustice, and I don't think Nadal is either. However, it's clear there are some flaws with WTF and he's attempting to remedy that.

 

[fedtennisphan]

What a big pile of bullcrap.

Then I went and saw the
Joined:
Nov 4, 2017

Nadal is getting desperate because he doesn’t like not having a WTF title but Federer has six. Ambition has no friends.

 

[Meles]

More importantly he wants it on clay so Federer would skip the event.

WTF to clay immediately.

 

[TheAverageFedererFan]

Federer could complain as to why there are not THREE Grass court masters.

Imagine how many Rome titles Fed would have won had they switched it to indoor HC from time to time!

This is genius.

 

[Zeref]

WTF should be put to a higher standard than masters. 1500 points are up for grabs. Also i'm not arguing it's a massive injustice, and I don't think Nadal is either. However, it's clear there are some flaws with WTF and he's attempting to remedy that.

It will never work if you just ask remedy that suits yourself , if he wanted everything to b 'Just' , he should have also asked for Grass court masters and rescheduling a bit.

 

[pame]

I understand that many disagree with Nadal on this, and I'm OK with it. However, I do reckon there is a point to be made that the tournament featuring the eight best players of the season exclusively should rotate the surface, because of its own nature, which is different from that of the rest of the tournies, slams included. You can't seriously sell it as the truly World Tour Finals if it's just another indoor HC event that just happens to feature the eight best players on tour.

Now if you rotate the surface and conditions you'll be truly representing the tour variety as well as showing the world how the eight best players in the world fare while facing each other in different conditions, not in the same ones year after year.

As Cash pointed out, that rapid, one-week transition from months of hard court play to clay or grass is more likely to show how the eight best players in the world can get injured.

 

[ADuck]

Federer could complain as to why there are not THREE Grass court masters.

This is genius.

He could though. Having no grass masters weakens the importance of the other masters because there is no balance

 

[ADuck]

It will never work if you just ask remedy that suits yourself , if he wanted everything to b 'Just' , he should have also asked for Grass court masters and rescheduling a bit.

The message is not as credible coming from him. I agree

 

[pame]

I understand that many disagree with Nadal on this, and I'm OK with it. However, I do reckon there is a point to be made that the tournament featuring the eight best players of the season exclusively should rotate the surface, because of its own nature, which is different from that of the rest of the tournies, slams included. You can't seriously sell it as the truly World Tour Finals if it's just another indoor HC event that just happens to feature the eight best players on tour.

Now if you rotate the surface and conditions you'll be truly representing the tour variety as well as showing the world how the eight best players in the world fare while facing each other in different conditions, not in the same ones year after year.

As Cash pointed out, that rapid, one-week transition from months of hard court play to clay or grass is more lik

WTF should be put to a higher standard than masters. 1500 points are up for grabs. Also i'm not arguing it's a massive injustice, and I don't think Nadal is either. However, it's clear there are some flaws with WTF and he's attempting to remedy that.

WTF has been played for about 50 years, primarily on indoors hardcourt. So it should be changed now for one player? I thought players adapt to conditions and surfaces, not the other way around, and to only one player. Anyone would think Nadal is the only one playing on indoor hard, while the other seven over his 13 years have played on wet sponge.

 

[Towser83]

WTF should be put to a higher standard than masters. 1500 points are up for grabs. Also i'm not arguing it's a massive injustice, and I don't think Nadal is either. However, it's clear there are some flaws with WTF and he's attempting to remedy that.

slams have 2000 points up for grabs, don't see any reason to make one of them indoor hc, or swap surfaces.... I doubt he'd say anything if he'd won it already. Seriously it is easier for him to win it as it is than it is for him to attempt to remedy anything.

Anyway he could win it this year so we will see what happens...

 

[ADuck]

slams have 2000 points up for grabs, don't see any reason to make one of them indoor hc, or swap surfaces.... I doubt he'd say anything if he'd won it already. Seriously it is easier for him to win it as it is than it is for him to attempt to remedy anything.

Anyway he could win it this year so we will see what happens...

You don't see any reason to swap surfaces because slams are already good as is. Also I thought we were arguing about what Nadal said, because what he said was apparantly wrong. But appears you were arguing because you think what he said is not how what he thinks. It appears we're not arguing the same things.

 

[ADuck]

WTF has been played for about 50 years, primarily on indoors hardcourt. So it should be changed now for one player? I thought players adapt to conditions and surfaces, not the other way around, and to only one player. Anyone would think Nadal is the only one playing on indoor hard, while the other seven over his 13 years have played on wet sponge.

I think you need to go up and read everything I said before you quote me, as this response is not indicative of how I think.

 

[Johnnypeacock]

Looks like Nadal also has a USO gap as he's never beaten Federer there.

He was waiting this year and Federer put in the most strange performance at USO against Del Potro. Then afterwards said he was happy to have lost as Del Potro had better chance of beating Nadal. Make of that what you will.

 

[Johnnypeacock]

Looks like Nadal also has a USO gap as he's never beaten Federer there.

He was waiting this year and Federer put in the most strange performance at USO against Del Potro. Then afterwards said he was happy to have lost as Del Potro had better chance of bearing

How could you play on grass in November? Somewhere in Australia would have to maintain a top-class grass court that would be played on every three years?

this is awful for the game the decline of grass courts due to maintenance issues. Makes me really sad.

 

[Towser83]

You don't see any reason to swap surfaces because slams are already good as is. Also I thought we were arguing about what Nadal said, because what he said was apparantly wrong. But appears you were arguing because you think what he said is not how what he thinks. It appears we're not arguing the same things.

Well if we're going to rotate the surfaces at the WTF, might as well make one of the HC slams indoors to give indoors a big tournament like grass, clay and outdoor hard have.

I don't agree with Nadal's justification, nor do I believe that's the reason he wants it changed. But I think he knows it won't change so he should just do what he did with the slams people said he could never win, and go out there and win it

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Roger more than proved himself with the wins in IW & Miami, but I don't think anyone would describe Rod Laver Arena in 2017 as high bouncing. Ditto for the Shanghai Masters.

Pretty much impossible for AO to not be high bouncing considering the high heat. Shanghai you might be right.

 

[Johnnypeacock]

That' not his point at all. He wants the WTF to be on clay because he hasn't been able to win it and is petrified of a 36 year old.
And he most definiely isn' spot on. There's a reason he' a laughing stock everywhere currently, after these comments.

Nope. His point is exactly as I've said as he has explained in more detail what he thinks WTf should be, something Djokovic agrees with him about. Surface rotation AND venue rotation across the world. On both counts they are both right. Even Federer isn't against the idea. It's the money men who want it kept in London and on a quick low court so matches don't last too long to assist TV scheduling.

 

[MeatTornado]

Pretty much impossible for AO to not be high bouncing considering the high heat. Shanghai you might be right.

At the time they said AO was playing faster than Wimbledon. Faster than it had been in well over a decade. Every player mentioned how much notably faster it was, and most of the big timers were playing at night anyway.

Lighter balls + court surfaced earlier = wicked fast

 

[slice bh compliment]

Yes, Rafito. I am good with broccoli, but I have never eaten a whole head of broccoli. But if broccoli were made of watermelon, i might have finished a few per summer.

Pat Cash is a globalist corporate shill. He used to be a rebel, now he simply does what he is told.
This means, to me, that the fix is in, and that Rafa is primed to win this.

 

[ADuck]

Well if we're going to rotate the surfaces at the WTF, might as well make one of the HC slams indoors to give indoors a big tournament like grass, clay and outdoor hard have.

Indoors is not a surface though. But sure, i'm all for variety of conditions throughout the year. The more court conditions they provide, the more variety in style of play they cater to. The more that happens, the better tennis we'll see. Right now it feels like all the lesser players a clone of one another, pretty boring.

 

[Shank Volley]

I do find it odd that "greatest problem solver ever" (aka person who is able to switch from hitting the ball high to someone's backhand to hitting the ball even higher to someone's backhand) hasn't been able to manufacture any success at a tournament after so many attempts.

 

[Rafa.the.Magnificent]

Nadal has improved a lot on hard court this year and should believe in himself for winning indoor HC instead of wishing it could be rotated with clay play.

 

[Zeref]

Yall are so mad about YE #1

I can guarantee no one even thought of him being YE#1 before commenting on his statement

 

[nikdom]

I agree with Nadal that no champion should have to play on a surface unsuitable for his game so many years in a row.














So as a Fed fan I say next year Roland Garros should be played on grass

 

[nikdom]

I agree with Nadal that no champion should have to play on a surface unsuitable for his game so many years in a row.














So as a Fed fan I say next year Roland Garros should be played on grass

 

[Tennease]

Change WTF to blue clay.
Change Roland Garros to red wood.

 

[Mr Feeny]

Nope. His point is exactly as I've said as he has explained in more detail what he thinks WTf should be, something Djokovic agrees with him about. Surface rotation AND venue rotation across the world. On both counts they are both right. Even Federer isn't against the idea. It's the money men who want it kept in London and on a quick low court so matches don't last too long to assist TV scheduling.

Definiely not. And they're not going to change the surface just because Nadal can't win. That' ridiculous. If he wants to win, he better figure out a way to do that. It isn' that difficult. The biggest challenger in his path is a grandpa. So he better stop crying and get to figuring out how to beat the old man.

 

[Luckydog]

See?
It is the real HUMBLEdal,LOL.