Pat the Dog, or not....

[ChaelAZ]

I have followed Tom since he started posting, and I love the way he breaks down some of the things that get out into the coaching world. Not so much to denote them as wrong, but to further explore how they might, or might not work. This was brilliant on Pat the Dog, which screwed me up for a bit with a hitch. Exactly what Tom breaks down.

 

[Znak]

Good share watched that one yesterday too! I do agree with what hes saying, it's akin to ppl forcing lag when it's a byproduct of another movement

 

[FRV]

Djokovic with a backwards hat? This may have ruined tennis for me.

 

[FiReFTW]

And yet so many pros have a long pat the dog position, including nadal and federer.
Two of the best forehands in history.
But it must be wrong, they should probably fix it so they can hit better forehands.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I have followed Tom since he started posting, and I love the way he breaks down some of the things that get out into the coaching world. Not so much to denote them as wrong, but to further explore how they might, or might not work. This was brilliant on Pat the Dog, which screwed me up for a bit with a hitch. Exactly what Tom breaks down.

i watched that vid earlier this week...
i see his point, but the pat the dog step is a beginners/intermediate progression.
the point is to install a basic movement pattern.
after that movement is installed you're supposed to "forget" the progression (in this case, make the movement continuous).

kinda reminds me of how you're supposed to teach dogs to run an obstacle course... let's say they have to do a 180 degree turn... you start by making them stop just past the turn around point, give them a treat, then make them come back to you around the marker, treat, etc... obviously when yoiu watch a dog agility contest, it's just continuous... the dog didn't just learn to do an out and back around a marker. (i can only imagine how challenging the pole weave is to teach).

 

[FiReFTW]

i watched that vid earlier this week...
i see his point, but the pat the dog step is a beginners/intermediate progression.
the point is to install a basic movement pattern.
after that movement is installed you're supposed to "forget" the progression (in this case, make the movement continuous).

kinda reminds me of how you're supposed to teach dogs to run an obstacle course... let's say they have to do a 180 degree turn... you start by making them stop just past the turn around point, give them a treat, then make them come back to you around the marker, treat, etc... obviously when yoiu watch a dog agility contest, it's just continuous... the dog didn't just learn to do an out and back around a marker. (i can only imagine how challenging the pole weave is to teach).

For some reason i found this comparing humans to dogs comparison extremely funny.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

For some reason i found this comparing humans to dogs comparison extremely funny.

my imagination runs amuck on the forums. i sometiems delude myself into thinking i can hit a fh

 

[FiReFTW]

my imagination runs amuck on the forums. i sometiems delude myself into thinking i can hit a fh

A question for you

When you teach someone tennis and go through progressions with them and it clicks and they get it, what do you do?

Do you say:"whos a good dogie, youuuuu, your a good dogie"
And give them a treat?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

A question for you

When you teach someone tennis and go through progressions with them and it clicks and they get it, what do you do?

Do you say:"whos a good dogie, youuuuu, your a good dogie"
And give them a treat?

haha


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[ByeByePoly]

I saw a spectacular pole weave in a Calgary nightclub one night ... but I suspect that is not the same pole weave. I will say it was worthy of the loonies being tossed.

I just broke it to my dogs there will be no more pat the dogs (man ... almost used a word that would have been flagged) ... I will now be enforcing a quick supination only policy.

 

[FiReFTW]

I saw a spectacular pole weave in a Calgary nightclub one night ... but I suspect that is not the same pole weave. I will say it was worthy of the loonies being tossed.

I just broke it to my dogs there will be no more pat the dogs (man ... almost used a word that would have been flagged) ... I will now be enforcing a quick supination only policy.

You still owe me a pic of the cheerleader

 

[ByeByePoly]

You still owe me a pic of the cheerleader

Only in my head ... and you are not welcome in there.

Edit: you would have been proud of me ... a tennis player in a school that worshipped football.

 

[FiReFTW]

Only in my head ... and you are not welcome in there.

Edit: you would have been proud of me ... a tennis player in a school that worshipped football.

Ha, you dont want to show.

I bet she was 300 pounds

 

[dominikk1985]

And yet so many pros have a long pat the dog position, including nadal and federer.
Two of the best forehands in history.
But it must be wrong, they should probably fix it so they can hit better forehands.

I agree. The loop is overrated. In theory it generates a bit more momentum but i ha've seen pretty good players move to ptd directly.

Like Anke Huber.

 

[DjokovicForTheCYGS]

Pat the dog has to do with how much spin you want. More spin? More pat. More flat? Less pat.

 

[FiReFTW]

Pat the dog has to do with how much spin you want. More spin? More pat. More flat? Less pat.

Good, bravo!

 

[Znak]

But I think the point he's making is you're not intrinsically thinking about the pat

 

[davced1]

I'd say don't think about it. Build your own style. There are many players with great forehands that doesn't do it. Del Potro for example.

 

[Pete Player]

Seems to be a classic interpretation of what one sees in a video.

The things causing a position mid-swing are not visible.

Cause and effect.


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[Pete Player]

Ha, you dont want to show.

I bet she was 300 pounds

Weight is just a byproduct. If the mechandize got an edge, it’s worth a lot more than the mockery and price tag on it.


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[BrokenGears]

All I got from this vid is that patting the dog should be natural which is obvious

 

[Deleted member 23235]

All I got from this vid is that patting the dog should be natural which is obvious

having taught quite a few beginner/intermediates... pat the dog position is not natural.
the common tendency is to open the racquet face to elevate the ball.
even teaching myself a lefty fh, it helped break it down "by the numbers" (including the "pat the dog" position)

 

[Curious]

No dog patting no racket lag, racket goes all the way 6 feet behind her back, yet good enough to take her to number one ranking in the world. This forum is a waste of time and probably does more harm to your tennis than good.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

No dog patting no racket lag, racket goes all the way 6 feet behind her back, yet good enough to take her to number one ranking in the world. This forum is a waste of time and probably does more harm to your tennis than good.

hehe true.... but now you’ve just opened up the atp vs wta fh debate


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[Hmgraphite1]

No dog patting no racket lag, racket goes all the way 6 feet behind her back, yet good enough to take her to number one ranking in the world. This forum is a waste of time and probably does more harm to your tennis than good.

So what your saying is having 10 different less than mediocre fh is not better than having only one really good one? I prob agree

 

[Curious]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

 

[BrokenGears]

having taught quite a few beginner/intermediates... pat the dog position is not natural.
the common tendency is to open the racquet face to elevate the ball.
even teaching myself a lefty fh, it helped break it down "by the numbers" (including the "pat the dog" position)

I worded it wrong, but it should be done naturally

 

[pencilcheck]

What's wrong patting the dog when playing tennis?
Tennis & Dogs can co-exists, it is excellent for play catching game with the dog, if you pat too much your ball will go off too long, that's why you need a dog to retrieve it for you.

To be serious, patting the dog is not something you should think about in a stroke, if I were an instructor, I wouldn't teach such a concept, since it is useless when you can't even see your hands when you are focusing on the ball.

 

[aimr75]

having taught quite a few beginner/intermediates... pat the dog position is not natural.

I think it is a natural move if you keep certain things passive during the unit turn. Once the initial move of pointing the racquet tip to the sky is complete, you turn the shoulders/torso without initiating the arms any further. So the arms/upper body turn as a single unit. From there once the turn is complete it’s just a case of letting the racquet drop into the slot. You’ll find yourself in that pat position without doing anything else. It’s a passive move as I see it.

 

[aimr75]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

There’s not that much tech talk around here anymore anyway. It’s just threads on who would beat who and proving your tennis worth.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

I could give you some words and phrases that will result in ttw euthanasia.

 

[ByeByePoly]

No dog patting no racket lag, racket goes all the way 6 feet behind her back, yet good enough to take her to number one ranking in the world. This forum is a waste of time and probably does more harm to your tennis than good.

Well sure ... if you are willing to limit your ceiling to best girl in the world.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I think it is a natural move if you keep certain things passive during the unit turn. Once the initial move of pointing the racquet tip to the sky is complete, you turn the shoulders/torso without initiating the arms any further. So the arms/upper body turn as a single unit. From there once the turn is complete it’s just a case of letting the racquet drop into the slot. You’ll find yourself in that pat position without doing anything else. It’s a passive move as I see it.

hehe, I agree with your mental model, and clearly you know what’s happening,... but some beginners were still trying to open the face unless i was explicit about closing the face prior to the forward swing. it’s like they had an old habit to break.


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[tomato123]

hehe, I agree with your mental model, and clearly you know what’s happening,... but some beginners were still trying to open the face unless i was explicit about closing the face prior to the forward swing. it’s like that had an old habit to break.


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The struggle is real! I learned tennis in the 90's and took a long break, then had to relearn the whole game again with the "modern" forehand, I used to video myself taking a million shadow swings and think I've got the various positions and motions down, then video myself hitting against the wall or with my coach, and it's NOPE, open face every time again.

 

[atp2015]

Well sure ... if you are willing to limit your ceiling to best girl in the world.

Or only compete in best of 3 matches.
If wta adopts 5 setters, they will make a beeline for pat the dog forehand.

 

[FiReFTW]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

Me too many times but its a bit extreme and not worth it in the end, its just a spur of the moment thing.

Please don't delete your account, there are people here who appreciate your passion for tennis and genuenly want to see how far you can push your tennis level with said passion and dedication.

 

[Pete Player]

A lot of counter intuitive things happen in proper sequence of motions.

With a slow swing you need to lift at the end, if you haven’t got an upward blow thru the ball.
- Not to lift, but let the racket rise.


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[Deleted member 23235]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

Yeah I get it... there’s so much better info on yt anyway. Back in 2007 when I first joined here,... seemed like this was the only game in town to get tennis insights. Now there’s a million videos out there. Seems dumb these days to “write” about technique when video is so easy to do while talking about concepts.... especially when everyone will interpret written text differently.

 

[Curious]

Yeah I get it... there’s so much better info on yt anyway. Back in 2007 when I first joined here,... seemed like this was the only game in town to get tennis insights. Now there’s a million videos out there. Seems dumb these days to “write” about technique when video is so easy to do while talking about concepts.... especially when everyone will interpret written text differently.

That and also the real waste of time dwelling in minute details like the arm angle, racket tip height, “why the hell am I not getting the lag like Fed?” and sh1t while all the other basics are nonexistent. Yes I’ve done that maybe more than most people here and I’m guilty. Now I feel disgusted. I’m really really sick of it.

 

[pencilcheck]

I have seriously thought about deleting my account but just don't want to go that radical now. I have made another decision though: From this moment on, I'm not gonna engage in any sort of technical discussion or read any such posts! I'm just fcking sick of it.

Just have fun, you don't have to be so stressed out about it.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

That and also the real waste of time dwelling in minute details like the arm angle, racket tip height, “why the hell am I not getting the lag like Fed?” and sh1t while all the other basics are nonexistent. Yes I’ve done that maybe more than most people here and I’m guilty. Now I feel disgusted. I’m really really sick of it.

Agreed. There’s a lot of misinformation on this forum. Needs to be a better way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Keendog]

I have followed Tom since he started posting, and I love the way he breaks down some of the things that get out into the coaching world. Not so much to denote them as wrong, but to further explore how they might, or might not work. This was brilliant on Pat the Dog, which screwed me up for a bit with a hitch. Exactly what Tom breaks down.

Do you know Tom Chael?

 

[Raul_SJ]

What's wrong patting the dog when playing tennis?
Tennis & Dogs can co-exists, it is excellent for play catching game with the dog, if you pat too much your ball will go off too long, that's why you need a dog to retrieve it for you.

To be serious, patting the dog is not something you should think about in a stroke, if I were an instructor, I wouldn't teach such a concept, since it is useless when you can't even see your hands when you are focusing on the ball.

I took a clinic with uspta level one instructor. I use an Eastern forehand grip. Have no idea what my face is doing nor do I think about it.

Was feeding standard waist high rally forehands from the baseline. He told me it's very important that the face is down on the backswing on every standard rally forehand. (Think I must have been doing it on some shots and not on others) Did not have a chance to get into detail on why. IIRC, he mentioned topspin as one of the reasons.

I don't quite understand why it is critical.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

That and also the real waste of time dwelling in minute details like the arm angle, racket tip height, “why the hell am I not getting the lag like Fed?” and sh1t while all the other basics are nonexistent. Yes I’ve done that maybe more than most people here and I’m guilty. Now I feel disgusted. I’m really really sick of it.

Funny when I review my videos, they mellow with age. At first all I focus on is all the errors, ugly technique etc... but on like the 4th time through months later i'll see some good things. I guess I set the bar so low it gives rise to something positive.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Do you know Tom Chael?

Not personally, no. Hoping to meet him at some point though. I like his coaching and player mentality focus.


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[ByeByePoly]

I took a clinic with uspta level one instructor. I use an Eastern forehand grip. Have no idea what my face is doing nor do I think about it.

Was feeding standard waist high rally forehands from the baseline. He told me it's very important that the face is down on the backswing on every standard rally forehand. (Think I must have been doing it on some shots and not on others) Did not have a chance to get into detail on why. IIRC, he mentioned topspin as one of the reasons.

I don't quite understand why it is critical.

I guess he would have to give Delpo a talking to:

 

[Pete Player]

Strings facing the ground somewhere in the flip, but will not happen, if you have a weak grip. It is a byproduct of strong grip and supination + ESR. If a player doesn’t rotate the arm away in direction chsnge, the strings wount turn either.

In the later case, people tend to lay back the wrist actively and the flip of the racket woun’t build up the momentum at all. And passively lay back the wrist.

Here is another example of the strings really not facing the ground. Quite effective and fluent shots to my eye.

In addition, I find that Bbp must be a phsycic. [emoji2960]


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[Deleted member 23235]

Have no idea what my face is doing nor do I think about it.

interesting... i've spent quite a bit of time, just experiementing with where my face is on the take back...
i've tried:
* traditional pat the dog... point to fence, face pointing down
* point to fence, face pointing behind me
* point to net, face pointing down
* point to fence, face pointing down at 45 degree angle
* point to fence, face point to net
* wta style "windmill" take back (how i think of it anyway)
* etc...
there are pros and cons to each

ultimately settled on a smaller tighter compact loop since i prefer to hug the baseline, take balls on the rise, and come to net.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Strings facing the ground somewhere in the flip, but will not happen, if you have a weak grip. It is a byproduct of strokg grip and supination + ESR. If a player doesn’t rotate the arm away in direction chsnge, the strings wount turn either.

In the later case, people tend to lay back the wrist actively and the flip of the racket woun’t build up the momentum at all. And passively lay back the wrist.

Here is another example of the strings really not facing the ground. Quite effective and fluent shots to my eye.

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jmdp fh doesn't face the ground (perpendiculuar), but it does close (during the traditional pat the dog position), which IMO is the point of the pat-the-dog progression (ie. to close the face prior to forward swing)... the traditional point to ground pat the dog position is semi-extreme... then you have some folks point almost to the back fence even...

 

[ByeByePoly]

I bet a lot of tennis instructors hate Delpo