Peak Nishikori would have beaten Djokovic

[Nadalgaenger]

So goes the logic of TTW.

2014 “peak” Djokovic lost in USO SF to Nishikori.
Since 2014 Djokovic was exponentially better than the current player that just won 7 of the last 10 slams we know that Nishikori would have won this USO.

Similarly, 2010 Maelzer would win FO as well as 2009 Kohlschreiber. Alcaraz wouldn’t stand a chance against those Titans because they beat the younger, faster Djokovic and he lost to an old guy that can’t move apparently.

2010 Tsonga would have won the last several AO because he beat the young, fast Djokovic in 2010.

Ergo, the tour would be dominated today by Kohlschreiber, Melzer, and company...

 

[NeutralFan]

You're as ridiculous as people who thinks 36 is the age players shouldn't be winning. Reality is somewhere else. He's good but he's not 3 slam a year good at 36.

 

[Kralingen]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year, and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

 

[Midaso240]

It doesn't always work like that, just because they beat Djokovic doesn't mean they will beat everyone. We saw that sort of thing with Medvedev this year, he played maybe the match of his life against Alcaraz in the semis then laid an egg in the final

 

[NeutralFan]

Give Djokovic Carlos's draw and he will have a hard time winning this USO and you think he would have won in a field that was stacked with players like Nadal, Fed, Tsonga, Murray etc when he would have to play them back to back?

 

[daggerman]

He's good but he's not 3 slam a year good at 36.

Yes, he is.

 

[NeutralFan]

Yes, he is.

Sure if he gets the draw like he got in all 4 slams.

 

[GabeT]

Yes, he is.

Of course he is

 

[NeutralFan]

Three slam a year before 30= 2, 3 slam a year post 34=2

34-36 year old Djokovic=2011, 2015 Djokovic

 

[Mainad]

I guess peak Cilic would have beaten Djokovic too.

 

[Federev]

I guess peak Cilic would have beaten Djokovic too.

Peak Cillic happened for like one tournament - the second week.

And yes, he wasn’t playable that week.

 

[daggerman]

Had Novak retired at the end of 2021, I'm quite certain that folks here would've spent the last two years talking about how Alcaraz, Medvedev, and Sinner were too strong for him and that Djokovic retired because he realized he couldn't vulture slams anymore.

 

[RF-18]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year, and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

Nishikori would do jack all. Tsonga had flaws, in wich current Djokovic would expose. Djokovic is so well equipped that you need to be perfect in every facet of the game if you want to challenge him. Alcaraz is such a player and he has pushed him this year, but Djoko has come out stronger, again. When are people gonna get that players 10-15 years ago also had flaws in their games just like flaws exist in current and all other generations. You are not gonna get a new big 3 levek player every new generation. Alcaraz is a young ATG and I'd even say he is above that, we are talking about a new star that will dominate the game for many years. He hasn't been able to stop Djokovic.

In the end it's Djokovic who has set the standards and raised the bar. Not the other way around.

 

[CoolCoolCool]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year, and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

The Med that showed up against Raz was better than any version of Nishikori though. He only has himself to blame for not having been able to bring that against Djoker.

 

[RS]

AO 10 Cilic/Gonzo and Roddick and Davydenko would have beaten AO 10 Tsonga. Possibly as good as AO 20-23 Djokovic bar the AO 21 SF/F and sets 1/4/5 of the AO 20 F and the injured Fed match after 5-1 down.

 

[FeroBango]

Peak Cillic happened for like one tournament - the second week.

And yes, he wasn’t playable that week.

Also during the champions tiebreak vs Rublev last year

 

[TheNachoMan]

Had Novak retired at the end of 2021, I'm quite certain that folks here would've spent the last two years talking about how Alcaraz, Medvedev, and Sinner were too strong for him and that Djokovic retired because he realized he couldn't vulture slams anymore.

Bingo.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year, and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

Ok but the argument is consistently that his AGE is the key variable. We can't keep moving goalposts around. He was younger in 2009 than in 2011 and much younger in 2014 than now. Yet we hear over and over that the current Djokovic is only a shadow of his younger self.
If that's true, the only logical conclusion is that guys like Maelzer, Kohlschreiber, and Nishikori would be winning all the slams in this generation.

 

[Omega_7000]

So goes the logic of TTW.

2014 “peak” Djokovic lost in USO SF to Nishikori.
Since 2014 Djokovic was exponentially better than the current player that just won 7 of the last 10 slams we know that Nishikori would have won this USO.

Similarly, 2010 Maelzer would win FO as well as 2009 Kohlschreiber. Alcaraz wouldn’t stand a chance against those Titans because they beat the younger, faster Djokovic and he lost to an old guy that can’t move apparently.

2010 Tsonga would have won the last several AO because he beat the young, fast Djokovic in 2010.

Lol good try. One good match or tournament does not define peak. These are flash in the pan performances that many from the useless next gens have had over the past 12 or so years.

 

[Dominic & Andrey]

Nishikori's game was beautiful at his best but he was a massive choker, you can't pick him with certainty in an hypothetical match.

 

[Kralingen]

Ok but the argument is consistently that his AGE is the key variable. We can't keep moving goalposts around. He was younger in 2009 than in 2011 and much younger in 2014 than now. Yet we hear over and over that the current Djokovic is only a shadow of his younger self.
If that's true, the only logical conclusion is that guys like Maelzer, Kohlschreiber, and Nishikori would be winning all the slams in this generation.

This is so disingenuous that I don’t really know how to respond.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year, and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

Simple question: Who has had a more accomplished clay career: Ruud or Melzer?

 

[The Blond Blur]

OP back at it making another disingenuous bad faith thread/argument

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Simple question: Who has had a more accomplished clay career: Ruud or Melzer?

Who played at a higher level vis-a-vis RG 20 / RG 22/23 is the more pertinent question, of course.

 

[The Guru]

This is so disingenuous that I don’t really know how to respond.

As is constantly throwing people's age around as a substitute for their level

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

As is constantly throwing people's age around as a substitute for their level

Says one who throws scorelines as substitute for level all the time.

 

[The Guru]

Says one who throws scorelines as substitute for level all the time.

Using the scores of matches to say how competitive they were *gasp* what ridiculousness who would ever do such a thing

 

[Kralingen]

Every argument these days feels disingenuous. Need video breakdown-based point by point analyses with live audiences rating each player for true honesty.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

I don’t think anyone believes or argues 2009-10 Djokovic is peak, nor do they believe 2014 USO Djokovic is peak.

However, 2014 Nishikori would’ve given 2023 Djokovic a much better match than anyone he faced in Flushing this year

Nah, I can tell you that every Djokovic fan would be rooting for Nishikori if he was facing Medvedev in the SF, no way in hell is Nishikori tougher than Medvedev. And this Medvedev performance in the final, even if you think it was weak, it was better than what Nishikori did in the 2014 final.

and I can say the same for 09/10 Kohlschreiber and Melzer at RG and 2010 Tsonga at AO. Not saying they would beat 2023ovic for certain, but they’d absolutely give a better showing than Tsitsipas Ruud and Medvedev did in their Slam finals against him this year.

Tsonga would do better than Tsitsipas at the AO likely.

Melzer and Kohli at RG better than Ruud is very debatable.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Using the scores of matches to say how competitive they were *gasp* what ridiculousness who would ever do such a thing

If competitiveness equalled level the Isner-Mahut match would've been goat.

 

[The Guru]

If competitiveness equalled level the Isner-Mahut match would've been goat.

Yep this is exactly what I've been saying. Reading comprehension skills 10/10.

 

[RS]

Every argument these days feels disingenuous. Need video breakdown-based point by point analyses with live audiences rating each player for true honesty.

We have done a few in threads and disscusions.

 

[thrust]

So goes the logic of TTW.

2014 “peak” Djokovic lost in USO SF to Nishikori.
Since 2014 Djokovic was exponentially better than the current player that just won 7 of the last 10 slams we know that Nishikori would have won this USO.

Similarly, 2010 Maelzer would win FO as well as 2009 Kohlschreiber. Alcaraz wouldn’t stand a chance against those Titans because they beat the younger, faster Djokovic and he lost to an old guy that can’t move apparently.

2010 Tsonga would have won the last several AO because he beat the young, fast Djokovic in 2010.

TOTAL NONSENSE! None of the players mentioned were on the same level as Medvedev or Alcaraz. How many times did Nishikori beat Novak? True, he caught Novak on a bad day and won that USO semi, but very little important after that

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Yep this is exactly what I've been saying. Reading comprehension skills 10/10.

Whatever exactly you've been saying, the essence is that you're shilling for a lower-level player pretending he's higher-level using any trick you see fit. It really seems like there's no hope for your warped mind to not envisage the opposite.

 

[RS]

Every argument these days feels disingenuous. Need video breakdown-based point by point analyses with live audiences rating each player for true honesty.

USO 03 SF
AO 03 QF
Wim 19 F
Wim 09 F
AO 20 F
USO 11 SF ish
USO 07 QF
USO 05 ish

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Nah, I can tell you that every Djokovic fan would be rooting for Nishikori if he was facing Medvedev in the SF, no way in hell is Nishikori tougher than Medvedev. And this Medvedev performance in the final, even if you think it was weak, it was better than what Nishikori did in the 2014 final.




Tsonga would do better than Tsitsipas at the AO likely.

Melzer and Kohli at RG better than Ruud is very debatable.

I'm rating peak Nishikori over Medvedev at every slam in a heartbeat. Think Federer would've owned Lad harder than Ferrer if they played in the same era(s). Just a total mismatch of a matchup, volley+slice spells doom. Nishikori did give Fred some scares though no slam wins of course.

 

[Kralingen]

Nah, I can tell you that every Djokovic fan would be rooting for Nishikori if he was facing Medvedev in the SF, no way in hell is Nishikori tougher than Medvedev. And this Medvedev performance in the final, even if you think it was weak, it was better than what Nishikori did in the 2014 final.

The final is one thing, but Nishikori definitely performed better against Djokovic in 2014 USO than Medvedev did in 2023 USO.

Go watch what Nishikori did to the Djokovic second serve in this match. And his ability to hug the baseline and go BH to BH, ceding very little positioning unlike Medvedev who cedes 50 meters of positioning at the beginning of every point? I rate that over a subpar Medvedev showing any day of the week.

Tsonga would do better than Tsitsipas at the AO likely.

Think that’s the most obvious one agree. Tsonga was maybe my favorite or 2nd favorite player growing up, he gives you so much more to think about than a Tsitsipas. His BH was good in the 2010 match too.

Melzer and Kohli at RG better than Ruud is very debatable.

Melzer sure, as 2010 Djokovic was up 2-0 and then basically collapsed. Again though Kohli gives you more to think about than a Ruud. Djokovic also struggles with left handers and OHBH on clay compared to 2HBH players. He’s literally undefeated against 2HBH right handed players at Roland Garros aside from Coria in 2005. so this is a matchup thing imo.

Speaking of Tsonga, in 2022 having basically not played in a full year he was a point away from taking Ruud 5 on Philippe Chatrier. He tore something in his shoulder and then lost the TB 1-7. He was totally out of shape and way below his best. That match is very instructive in the way I view Ruud’s level on clay.

 

[Jonesy]

Peak Nishikori has one of the best BHs i ever seen.

 

[WeekendTennisHack]

Cecchinato anyone?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

The final is one thing, but Nishikori definitely performed better against Djokovic in 2014 USO than Medvedev did in 2023 USO.

Yeah, but Djokovic is 18-2 against Nishikori. That's just one match, if we are using just one match Medvedev 2021 did better than Nishikori 2014. Medvedev is just a better player overall and a tougher matchup for Djokovic.

Think that’s the most obvious one agree. Tsonga was maybe my favorite or 2nd favorite player growing up, he gives you so much more to think about than a Tsitsipas. His BH was good in the 2010 match too.

Agreed. He beat Djokovic at the AO in 2010, even if it was a very subpar Djokovic, and did decently in the 2008 final. He's just better than Tsitsipas overall.

Melzer sure, as 2010 Djokovic was up 2-0 and then basically collapsed. Again though Kohli gives you more to think about than a Ruud. Djokovic also struggles with left handers and OHBH on clay compared to 2HBH players. He’s literally undefeated against 2HBH right handed players at Roland Garros aside from Coria in 2005. so this is a matchup thing imo.

None of them should be any trouble for Djokovic, Melzer and Kohli would never beat post-2010 Djokovic at a slam and Ruud shouldn't either. But Ruud is just a much better player overall, he may be one of the worst #2 ever and can't win anything about a 250, but he has 3 slam finals. The other two never came close to one.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Building up straw men and going to town on them like a pinata might feel satisfying for you, but its not very persuasive

 

[SonnyT]

Rosol, Darcis and Brown defeated Nadal. Starkovsky defeated Federer. Nishikori, Chung defeated Djokovic.

**** happens in sports. Looking at the stats, it most rarely happens to Djokovic.

 

[Username_]

Tomic would destroy everyone in this us open with his eyes closed

 

[Biotic]

Yup. Even the almighty fedfan eyetest of the actual matches is relegated nowdays to a secondary role and gives way to the hypothetical level based on what people think the player was capable of at any given time. Age is the key variable ofc.

Therefore, it's only fair to award Melzer a hypothetical CYGS in 2023.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

OP back at it making another disingenuous bad faith thread/argument

I'm just making your argument. Do you agree or disagree?
2014 Djokovic was objectively better than now, correct?

 

[The Blond Blur]

I'm just making your argument. Do you agree or disagree?
2014 Djokovic was objectively better than now, correct?

See that right there is why this is being done in bad faith. Now he actually was better in 2014. He also faced way better players in 2014. But in this thread and in your previous thread you were trying to equate 2013 Joker with 2010 Joker when the latter was slumping due to changes in his game that backfired.

 

[Unseeded Player]

You're as ridiculous as people who thinks 36 is the age players shouldn't be winning. Reality is somewhere else. He's good but he's not 3 slam a year good at 36.

If Fed was 2 slam good at 36 I don't see why Novak is not.

 

[Unseeded Player]

Tomic would destroy everyone in this us open with his eyes closed

How is he btw? Did they found the guys who kicked him?

 

[Unseeded Player]

Give Djokovic Carlos's draw and he will have a hard time winning this USO and you think he would have won in a field that was stacked with players like Nadal, Fed, Tsonga, Murray etc when he would have to play them back to back?

Novak is almost 20 years on the tour, it is normal that he won't have strong or weak field all the time. He faced both and also weak and tough draws through career. Fed didn't think back in the days: " Sampras is retired, Agassi is now the tourist type of player, I don't want to play without any ATG outside clay, let Roddick and Hewitt battle for the title. ".... Sure it would be harder for Novak to win a slam with those guys in the way but nobody mentioned something simmilar in 2017. Novak has played against best versions of those guys you mentioned and he has positive H2H against all of them and he beated back to back Fed and Nadal in 2011.

 

[Third Serve]

Had Novak retired at the end of 2021, I'm quite certain that folks here would've spent the last two years talking about how Alcaraz, Medvedev, and Sinner were too strong for him and that Djokovic retired because he realized he couldn't vulture slams anymore.

I think it would be impossible to extrapolate that from one defeat at the US Open in a year when Djokovic almost won the CYGS and destroyed the next gen multiple times in the other Slams. And Alcaraz and Sinner weren’t quite in the limelight by then so that point’s moot as well.

But I know strawmen are quite fun to write (and to read) so carry on.