Please help me with my forehand, friends

[peoplespeace]

Don’t get mad bro. You have your own concept, that’s ok. You can describe it more explicitly, if you wish to.
If you need some extra hooks to get into understanding outward swing, consider serving. The swing for proper serve is “up the mountain”, not forward, not downward. Then racquet rotates into contact on top of the swing to cut across the ball, or to smash it flush for flat serve.

Im not mad at all bro, thus the smiley! I dont think that u (guys) are really clear in saying whether it is a mental trick or an actual real swing that is different from a normal atp pro fh. When u (he) use the wording "that is deffo an inside out fh" the u give the impression that something different goes on than on a standard modern fh. Are u talking about a swing where the player actually swings out to the side to enhance centrifugal force? I dont think that it is a coinsidence that u cant find more that a couple of youtube coaches mentioning this. I have alot of respect for Thomas feel tennis's advice however when he mentions this he refers to some guy with his own filosophy and website and courses, so........

Yes the the rotational force is a major part of the serve but u dont swing out to the side during serve! U swing up towards the target, just like u swing towards the target on a fh not out to the side!

Anyhow, we are so far apart in our understanding that i feel like im talking to people who are trying to proof God's existance.

 

[peoplespeace]

Btw, its not like i havent had the idea of using that inside out principle that u are talking about. This is my private note no 514 where i reflect about exactly this. It is in danish but if u put it in google translate u will see what my thoughts were about this at the time. "514) Hey! Hvad med at jeg slår ud mod ca siden af kroppen i mit fremsving for at skabe mere centrifugalkraft, og med et løst greb bør det også skabe mere "radial" håndledslag. Det kan være det der gav power da jeg visualiserede at jeg slog lidt inside out selvom jeg slog ligefrem!! Hvis jeg kombinerer dette med at rulle kraftigt med håndleddet i kontakt (dvs brushing og radial movement) så bør jeg kunne ramme bolden med lidt mere åbne strenge og ikke bekymre mig om at slå ud. Dette bør også give noget sidespin da jeg jo så faktisk cupper lidt af siden af bolden i slutning af kontakt."

 

[Dragy]

Im not mad at all bro, thus the smiley! I dont think that u (guys) are really clear in saying whether it is a mental trick or an actual real swing that is different from a normal atp pro fh. When u (he) use the wording "that is deffo an inside out fh" the u give the impression that something different goes on than on a standard modern fh. Are u talking about a swing where the player actually swings out to the side to enhance centrifugal force?

It’s not different, it is good modern FH, Rafa being a very pronounced example with his straight arm and steep swing.
You don’t do it to enhance centrifugal force. You apply centrifugal force to make it happen. And you don’t resist it.

 

[peoplespeace]

It’s not different, it is good modern FH, Rafa being a very pronounced example with his straight arm and steep swing.
You don’t do it to enhance centrifugal force. You apply centrifugal force to make it happen. And you don’t resist it.

See my post no 52.

U are really not being clear but maybe thats the intention.

 

[Dragy]

See my post no 52.

U are really not being clear but maybe thats the intention.

What kind of clearness you are after?
In pro swings for topspin shots arm gets back high, then dropped low close to body/hip, then propelled out and up towards the ball. Of course in line with forward acceleration - from mild pendulum-like as it drops into high power as legs push and torso rotates. That’s pretty clear from video available.
I didn’t translate your post, sorry.

 

[peoplespeace]

What kind of clearness you are after?
In pro swings for topspin shots arm gets back high, then dropped low close to body/hip, then propelled out and up towards the ball. Of course in line with forward acceleration - from mild pendulum-like as it drops into high power as legs push and torso rotates. That’s pretty clear from video available.
I didn’t translate your post, sorry.

U cant "propel" something in two different directions!

 

[peoplespeace]

U cant "propel" something in two different directions! Plus if u are just giving a description of what happens then there is no reason to give it a new name such as "an inside out fh".

 

[Dragy]

U cant "propel" something in two different directions! Plus if u are just giving a description of what happens then there is no reason to give it a new name such as "an inside out fh".

You made it up. Outward swing is a description of a segment of a FH, not a name to a FH.

It’s important to pay attention to for those who struggle with smooth low-to-high swing or with achieving good spacing or with arm bending mid-swing as OP demonstrates. It’s not evident for flattish strokes though, where arm isn’t dropping to and rising from around hip.

 

[peoplespeace]

You made it up. Outward swing is a description of a segment of a FH, not a name to a FH.

It’s important to pay attention to for those who struggle with smooth low-to-high swing or with achieving good spacing or with arm bending mid-swing as OP demonstrates. It’s not evident for flattish strokes though, where arm isn’t dropping to and rising from around hip.

I not sure about u, but another guy in the thread said "deffo an inside out fh" and Tomas from Feel tennis starts his video about this swing saying that all the pros swing out to the side even on their take back! to initiate the figure 8 and then links to some "guru" with his own website about this swing! The pros do NOT swing to the side on their take back as he claims. This is utter bs and it has every sign of a scam targeting the more gullable ignorant players and i dont like it! I dont like scammers and the world of tennis is full of them!

 

[undecided]

Back in the early 90s I was taught a very rigid SW/W double-bend forehand with a stiff wrist/arm. Didn't play at all for like 15 years then 3 years ago I saw a video of a Fed forehand and decided on spot I was gonna learn how to play this Eastern grip modern ATP straight-arm forehand. It was simply the coolest way of hitting a tennis ball I had ever seen! I used to be a very flat hitter getting a lot of ball acceleration by snapping the wrist forward through contact but of course losing (almost all ) control in the process. My backhand feels like a very natural swing whereas any change to my forehand was probably a good thing

So this is where I stand now. It seems like my biggest challenge is a loose swing which is especially apparent in my follow-through. So I can concentrate on the mechanics of the stroke more I've been using the ball machine a lot (first part of the clip). If I play an opponent I tense up quite a bit (second part). I've hit lessons with 3 different pro coaches and it definitely improved my stroke but I feel they can't help me much from here on out. I would very much appreciate any advice on where the root of my evil forehand lies.

Cheers!

Your FH looks fantastic already.

 

[ubercat]

I don't get the controversy the same movement is mirrored on the back hand. It's essential on the one hander as it's one of the elements that gives topspin. I know because I had to fix my backhand. I used to take the racket straight back and ended up with a wobbly outside in backhand with no power.

 

[muph]

There are many examples. But one of the big one that you can easily spot in slow mo is that Fed specifically start and stop body then move the arm right around contact

Fed also consistently segmented upper body rotation from bottom legs rotation you will notice he almost look like he is holding his legs from rotation until the ball already contacted.

I can’t explain why he did those weird stuff but that is Fed style and it shows since he hit with feel and he is strong.

I just noticed but maybe this will help you: you hit too late, if you can move your contact point a bit further away (into the court) it will help your contact a lot better. You hit too late

I completely agree with you, 'letting the arm fly' before you hit the ball by stopping torso rotation is essential. I just started feeling this on the last two hitting sessions so on my second video I can see myself aiming for that only in the last 1 1/2 min.
I did realize even though it used to be much worse I still don't hit the ball out in front as far as I'd like to. Whenever I try to hit the ball earlier I shank a lot and it also becomes hard to direct the ball to my right (eg inside-out fh). I guess I have to fix some mechanical issues earlier in my swing first then the contact point will naturally happen more in front of the body. That's what I hope anyway

Your FH looks fantastic already.

Thank you for the kind words.

 

[muph]

Something that was mentioned further up the thread made me start wondering - does it take quite some physical strength to hit a modern ATP straight-arm forehand since apparently pretty much none of the girls are hitting like that...? Rafa, Verdasco, and to some extent Fed... - I'd say they're on the bulkier side in tennis. If I can't keep my arm extended through contact when I'm trying to hit harder could it mean that I'm not just lacking technique but also upper body strength?

 

[Dragy]

Something that was mentioned further up the thread made me start wondering - does it take quite some physical strength to hit a modern ATP straight-arm forehand since apparently pretty much none of the girls are hitting like that...? Rafa, Verdasco, and to some extent Fed... - I'd say they're on the bulkier side in tennis. If I can't keep my arm extended through contact when I'm trying to hit harder could it mean that I'm not just lacking technique but also upper body strength?

Rybarikova, Krunic, Sevastova don’t look bulky. Barty does
Karo Muchova, Petra Martic are athletic, yet not stronger than male pros.
It’s not triceps strength to hold arm straight, at least not until contact is rather high with a flattish swing. Proper joint positions and proper sequencing are key.

 

[peoplespeace]

Something that was mentioned further up the thread made me start wondering - does it take quite some physical strength to hit a modern ATP straight-arm forehand since apparently pretty much none of the girls are hitting like that...? Rafa, Verdasco, and to some extent Fed... - I'd say they're on the bulkier side in tennis. If I can't keep my arm extended through contact when I'm trying to hit harder could it mean that I'm not just lacking technique but also upper body strength?

Men are more explosive than women and can thus get away with a shorter swing. Women need a big swing to accelarate the racket.

I dont think u lack strength. By the time u hit the ball ur body should be transferring its weight into the ball, so if the ball feels very heavy in ur arm then it becus u are not trasferring ur weight enough. The most common reason for this is to hit the ball to late, ie contact point too far behind.

 

[muph]

Rybarikova, Krunic, Sevastova don’t look bulky. Barty does
Karo Muchova, Petra Martic are athletic, yet not stronger than male pros.
It’s not triceps strength to hold arm straight, at least not until contact is rather high with a flattish swing. Proper joint positions and proper sequencing are key.

That's good info.

 

[muph]

Men are more explosive than women and can thus get away with a shorter swing. Women need a big swing to accelarate the racket.

I dont think u lack strength. By the time u hit the ball ur body should be transferring its weight into the ball, so if the ball feels very heavy in ur arm then it becus u are not trasferring ur weight enough. The most common reason for this is to hit the ball to late, ie contact point too far behind.

It's not so much the ball feeling heavy, more like I automatically tend to bring the mass (racquet and arm) closer to the axis for acceleration meaning I bend the arm in the forward acceleration phase. But seeing some of the skinny girls hit with a straight arm has dissolved my doubts. Maybe I just need some time to get more comfortable with all the adjustments I have made already.

 

[peoplespeace]

It's not so much the ball feeling heavy, more like I automatically tend to bring the mass (racquet and arm) closer to the axis for acceleration meaning I bend the arm in the forward acceleration phase. But seeing some of the skinny girls hit with a straight arm has dissolved my doubts. Maybe I just need some time to get more comfortable with all the adjustments I have made already.

Is there a particular reason why u dont want a fh that bends during the forward swing like eg Djokovic? If that feels more comfortable.

 

[muph]

Is there a particular reason why u dont want a fh that bends during the forward swing like eg Djokovic? If that feels more comfortable.

It's a spiritual journey for me. I feel very strongly drawn towards what I feel when I watch Fed play a forehand... so loose and free yet so powerful. It works as a symbol for the whole. Finding the looseness in my tennis forehand is leading me to my own inner looseness. Not that I knew that from the start but now I realize more and more that: as it is in the smallest part it is in the whole as well. If you are a 'tight person' you do not have looseness in you. Everything you do will be affected by your tightness. The life-altering realization though is it works both ways: me finding a more relaxed way to play my forehand leads to addressing my own tightness and finding ways to be more relaxed - or my forehand could never have loosened up. For me, Tennis is acting much like a crutch, if you will.

I'm sure everyone feels drawn the most towards the one thing from that they can learn the most. But not in the sense of 'learning how to play tennis' or 'learning how to be a successful manager' but encountering those unresolved parts of yourselve that are mirrored back by what you experience while you are 'learning how to play tennis' or whatever it is you gravitate towards. I encountered the tightness in myself.

Maybe (maybe probably ) once I have reached the fluidity and looseness in my swing that I seek now I will stop playing because I don't need the crutch anymore. Anyway it'll be right.

 

[pencilcheck]

Is there a particular reason why u dont want a fh that bends during the forward swing like eg Djokovic? If that feels more comfortable.

Would you believe me if I say Djokovic is also hitting straight arm? Djokovic is actually straightening his hitting arm but it look bent because not everyone straight arm look straight

 

[peoplespeace]

It's a spiritual journey for me. I feel very strongly drawn towards what I feel when I watch Fed play a forehand... so loose and free yet so powerful. It works as a symbol for the whole. Finding the looseness in my tennis forehand is leading me to my own inner looseness. Not that I knew that from the start but now I realize more and more that: as it is in the smallest part it is in the whole as well. If you are a 'tight person' you do not have looseness in you. Everything you do will be affected by your tightness. The life-altering realization though is it works both ways: me finding a more relaxed way to play my forehand leads to addressing my own tightness and finding ways to be more relaxed - or my forehand could never have loosened up. For me, Tennis is acting much like a crutch, if you will.

I'm sure everyone feels drawn the most towards the one thing from that they can learn the most. But not in the sense of 'learning how to play tennis' or 'learning how to be a successful manager' but encountering those unresolved parts of yourselve that are mirrored back by what you experience while you are 'learning how to play tennis' or whatever it is you gravitate towards. I encountered the tightness in myself.

Maybe (maybe probably ) once I have reached the fluidity and looseness in my swing that I seek now I will stop playing because I don't need the crutch anymore. Anyway it'll be right.

Interesting and unusual but it makes perfect sense. If tennis can make u a better human being then all power to u! Ill be an interesting journey with bumps and surprises me thinks but stay on course and gl!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Are there videos to illustrate variations of the racket path from appearing to be circular, especially if viewed from above.

For example, Frank Salazar forehand video from above. Fuzzy Yellow Balls video with Toly processing. Single frame on Youtube use the "." & "," KEYS.

Inside out forehand.

 

[peoplespeace]

Are there videos to illustrate variations of the racket path from appearing to be circular, especially if viewed from above.

For example, Frank Salazar forehand video from above. Fuzzy Yellow Balls video with Toly processing. Single frame on Youtube use the "." & "," KEYS.

Inside out forehand.

Double post

 

[Chas Tennis]

If u look at the but cap of the racket, it travels almost on a straight line from the start of the forward swing up to contact. Also, racket path and swing are two different things. Of course the path of the racket will be more circular than the arm since it rotates sometimes as much as 360 degress around the butt cap from the start of the forward swing til the end of the followthrough.

At second 41 of the forehand, the blue dots indicate a reference on the hand near the butt cap. The red dots are on the tip of the racket. Neither looks straight. I would call the hand and racket paths curved and the path just before impact to be about circular. And if we kept looking we would see variations. Until I see videos I'd say that they are curved paths toward more racket path circular near impact - but let's always look at high speed video to see what is true.

There is also a belief that the racket faces moves on a straight line for some of the path around impact for control. I suppose a tangent should then appear in overhead videos. I have looked for that a little but never have seen it. Suggest video evidence for verifying all racket or hand paths.

If there is any similar evidence to support hand, racket path or other simple word descriptions of paths, let's post the videos. There are many posts where different posters argue over what simplifying words mean to them. Let's show what we mean with videos. Unfortunately, the overhead camera views are hard to find.

We did have a thread where pulling the racket toward the rotation axis seemed to have some credence for increasing pace and was also being used in golf for the same reason. It had the name of 'parametric acceleration' I believe. That was an interesting thread.

On a similar thread I found that a camera could be protected and place under the incoming ball's trajectory and get high speed coverage. So if we want to see the paths of the incoming ball, outgoing ball, racket head and maybe the hand we might be able to get it without the equipment required to video from above. There were some consideration of not looking at the sun directly and some others.

Under Impact Camera on a Forehand. The videos were processed on Youtube and resolution reduced to 320x240. The original video files on my computer look much sharper like the thumbnail picture below.
Use the "." and "," keys to step through the video and read the text boxes.

240 fps, shutter speed: 1/5000 sec, ASA 3200, wide angle lens 24 mm,

The video is of a forehand in the direction of an inside-out-forehand but without as much angle.

Some returns were directed to one side of the ball machine, the ad court. Some were directed to the other side of the ball machine (deuce). I am getting mixed up with rights and lefts when looking at this video. The incoming ball direction is a good reference line.

There appears to be a bend in the direction of the racket shaft and racket head. I believe that will likely turn out to be Jello Effect, a camera artifact from scaning the sensor.

The velocity of the ball can be measured by how many inches the ball moved. The ball itself can be used to measure distance using the ball's diameter as calibration. Better to use the thumbnail as the video is low resolution.

The good news is that the set up worked well with a ball machine. The wide angle lens should be wider than 24 mm to get the player. I put my tennis bag in front of the camera, pointing toward the ball machine, and that worked to stop balls from hitting the camera. Camera close to end of tennis bag, The camera was on a towel looking up where I was trying to impact the ball. A fair number of the balls were seen close enough above the camera, 40-60%? Kinovea worked very well for analysis. The video feedback set-up works. I have no financial interest in Samsung, iPhone, others....... A good use for a old smartphones with high speed video. But they have high resolution and produce very large video files.

I am very disappointed that the Youtube dropped down in resolution to 320 X 240. The original 240 fps recording was 448 X 336 and the Kinovea video looked as good as the original.

Camera looking straight up, protected from ball (machine fed).

There was a problem with Youtube downsizing this low resolution video. It was solved so that future videos should not lose resolution and look as sharp as the thumbnail shown below. That impact was for an inside out forehand or at least my attempt at one.

 

[Chas Tennis]

duplicate delete

 

[peoplespeace]

Double post

 

[Chas Tennis]

This is a very informative video regarding the more linear forehand technique vs the more circular forehand. Look especially when Dan Brown overlays the circular technique over the linear, 4:30. I see mostly the circular technique in the ATP, all?

This forehand technique is another feature that will affect the paths of the hand and racket. I don't know by how much. I may use a few words to describe part of a stroke but for clear and unambiguous communication the words need to describe videos while they are being examined.

 

[peoplespeace]

Double post

 

[landcookie]

More legs, perhaps? I think I hit with a straight arm without even thinking about it. Here's a lousy video. Sorry about the quality.

 

[muph]

Interesting and unusual but it makes perfect sense. If tennis can make u a better human being then all power to u! Ill be an interesting journey with bumps and surprises me thinks but stay on course and gl!

Thanks @peoplespeace . It IS exciting to discover and then try to solve those aspects about myself I find by looking so deeply at my tennis game.

More legs, perhaps? I think I hit with a straight arm without even thinking about it. Here's a lousy video. Sorry about the quality.

Looking great! Are you initiating the swing with your non-hitting arm or is it just moving out of the way?

 

[landcookie]

Looking great! Are you initiating the swing with your non-hitting arm or is it just moving out of the way?

Thanks. Initiating from the legs up. Lower body stays intense while upper body is relaxed throughout.

Don't really think much about the upper body anymore. In the past I've been coached to keep my non hitting arm out longer, and catch the racquet after contact. Otherwise I tend to over rotate and my contact point gets all funny. I still have a tendency to over rotate sometimes.

Now all I think about is legs legs legs legs legs legs explode. Repeat.

 

[Happi]

@muph lots of good advice here, but if you want to develop your forehand I would suggest working with a good coach.

2 things I notice on the videos, that could help you

- get more under the ball, you hit too flat on the ball.
- get low, use your body much more (not just arm), move more, dance around the ball - here is a great video, that to me is a good way to mold a forehand from.

 

[Happi]

It's a spiritual journey for me. I feel very strongly drawn towards what I feel when I watch Fed play a forehand... so loose and free yet so powerful. It works as a symbol for the whole. Finding the looseness in my tennis forehand is leading me to my own inner looseness. Not that I knew that from the start but now I realize more and more that: as it is in the smallest part it is in the whole as well. If you are a 'tight person' you do not have looseness in you. Everything you do will be affected by your tightness. The life-altering realization though is it works both ways: me finding a more relaxed way to play my forehand leads to addressing my own tightness and finding ways to be more relaxed - or my forehand could never have loosened up. For me, Tennis is acting much like a crutch, if you will.

I'm sure everyone feels drawn the most towards the one thing from that they can learn the most. But not in the sense of 'learning how to play tennis' or 'learning how to be a successful manager' but encountering those unresolved parts of yourselve that are mirrored back by what you experience while you are 'learning how to play tennis' or whatever it is you gravitate towards. I encountered the tightness in myself.

Maybe (maybe probably ) once I have reached the fluidity and looseness in my swing that I seek now I will stop playing because I don't need the crutch anymore. Anyway it'll be right.

Go to about 6:50 in this video

 

[Happi]

To me developing my tennis is a spiritual journey too. Here is a good book to read.

Zen in the Art of Archery: Eugen Herrigel, R. F. C. Hull, Daisetz T. Suzuki: 2015375705090: Amazon.com: Books

Zen in the Art of Archery [Eugen Herrigel, R. F. C. Hull, Daisetz T. Suzuki] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Zen in the Art of Archery

www.amazon.com

Have a great journey

 

[Miki 1234]

Your forhand is at your lvl of game and even better so dont worry looks very good.
If anything when you are hitting from the spot or without the ball shadow tennis bent arm more at the elbow coz it seems bit straight .
By this i mean 1 or 2 cm at most and i mean at most like you did in a rally.
Rally was good.

 

[Chas Tennis]

SOMETIMES IT WORKS - SOMETIMES VIMEO SINGLE FRAME AFFECTS YOUTUBE ?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Comparing Forehands Single Frame on a Vimeo Video and a Youtube Video.

For Vimeo
1) Pick a forehand and go to impact frame.
2) For single frame in Vimeo, selecting the video does not automatically start it playing. No problem.
3) To single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

For Youtube
1) Pick a forehand and go to impact frame
2) Place the cursor on the video - always well away from the time line - and hold the Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select that video.
3) On Youtube use the PERIOD/COMMA KEYS to advance or go back one frame. Find frame closest to impact.
4) Always use the Alt-Left Mouse Click to select the YT video to work on so that it will not start playing.

This works on my laptop using a touchpad. If you simply click on the Youtube video in the usual way it will start the video and encumber going back and forth between videos. I have heard than some other keys may work so that Youtube videos do not automatically start playing when the cursor clicks on them.

Timing can be exact if the frame rates are the same or known. For now, just compare similar positions of the stroke.

If you have any problems with this technique, please post them.

 

[5263]

U cant "propel" something in two different directions! Plus if u are just giving a description of what happens then there is no reason to give it a new name such as "an inside out fh".

Inside out Fh refers to taking an inside ball one that doesn't cross your body ref. Wardlaw Directionals) and hitting out to the crosscourt side based on where you are standing. It's a way of discussing a different approach to hitting crosscourt from the Bh side with the Fh, where you don't allow the ball to cross the body, thus it gives you the choice of changing directions more freely. The term doesn't refer to a different Fh technique, but instead to a different shot option/direction.

 

[5263]

You mean he should keep the ball more on the strings/extend more through the ball?

Sorry I am a bit of loss about your " lag to drag"....

What I mean by the phrase "lag to drag" is that when you hit the slot correctly, the racket head should lag back and down to some extent for a topspin Fh. With the racket fully back and deepest in this "lagging" slot, you should leave this slot by dragging the buttcap on a fairly direct path towards the contact area. So you hit the slot and the rh lags, then the rh is initially dragged from the slot maintaining some or all of that lag. This method will help you to have a very responsive Fh with ability to adjust, time and accelerate for a desired contact. If you don't drag the racket at least momentarily, then you must muscle and torque the RH around or let the rh bounce out from the lag of the slot (such as with the lag & snap) in a less effective manner for timing and clean contact.

 

[5263]

What u say is correct! What does the drag theory say? That the racket doesnt catch up?! In certain situations it might not catch up, when control is more important than power but otherwise yes that reacket catches up.

Where did you get that? I'm the one who coined the phrase "lag to drag" unless someone can provide me an earlier reference to that phrasing (which I'm happy to hear if someone can confirm past coaches used this or something similar). But no. Draging the racket doesn't mean it won't catch up. It means that the racket will initially be dragged at the beginning of it's path from the lag of the slot. From there it may or may not "catch up" as you suggest.