Prime Federer vs Prime Djokovic at all major slams
- Thread starter dmt
- Start date
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2017 was still relatively strong during the AO and the Sunshine Double. It only became relatively weak after that.
metsman
G.O.A.T.
AO/Miami/Madrid were good tournaments, almost every other one after that sucked. Shanghai was decent. This year looks to be even worse.
Zhilady
Professional
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Murray has 3.3 times more big titles than Roddick (20 to 6). Federer has 1.1 times more big titles than Djokovic (53 to 47).
Tilden dominated much more than Federer. Never lost in a major in 7 years, won 98 matches in a row... Maybe when I have time I will tell you more.
Roddick has terrible h2h against 1985-88 generation. Those with Djokovic are only one part of it.
Last edited by a moderator:
2007 Djokovic was very good. Aggressive, great FH/BH, decent serve, good movement. 2015 Federer didn’t beat anyone at this level in slams so I’d go for 2007 Djokovic to prevail.
You might have had a point if Federer didn’t sweep indoors 2011, beat peak Djokovic twice, held double MP in 2 USO and reached number 1 with 3 slam SF, 1 win, numerous masters titles etc. All at aged 30-31 vs younger, fitter more athletic 25-26 year old peak ATGs.
9 matches vs 14 so not comparable sample size.
Djokovic and Murray weren’t a factor in 2006 so there was no “big 4”.
2-4 vs Rafa, 0-3 in big clay matches with double MP in one of them going 5 sets. 2-0 in big HC/grass matches. Don’t care about Dubai. Results make sense.
The whole argument is based on peak level... you peak for slams so therefore Murray isn’t that much better than Roddick. Yes he’s more consistent and much more successful, but I’d bet he wouldn’t have 3 slams if he had to face prime Federer at Wimbledon rather than 2013 exhausted Djokovic or 2016 Raonic.
Therefore Murray isn’t really a much more difficult opponent in a one off slam match.
Zhilady
Professional
You said “difference”. Do you know what the word means?
“Difference” between Federer and Djokovic = 8 Slams.
“Difference” between Murray and Roddick = 2 Slams.
8 > 2.
He was competing against Amateurs during those 7 years, and didn’t even play Wimbledon (historically, the biggest Grand Slam title) for a lot of those years. He has a grand total of 4 Pro Majors.
Now, that’s because of the tour conditions, and he had to play the hand he was dealt, which is why these comparisons are difficult. But just in terms of “numbers” and “achievements”, Federer is way ahead. Sorry to burst your ignorant bubble.
Roddick leads Djokovic 5-4. Nothing can change that.
If you want to consider performance against the entire field, Federer is way ahead of everyone, including Djokovic, so I don’t think you want to go there.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Zhilady I doubt you can or want to understand what I write, and since you're also disrespecting I won't answer to you anymore.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Ok.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
2004-06's 13 matches, 6 wins and 7 losses, is a better sample size?
They were no big 4 (ranked 20-70) and still won 1 match out of 3.
Why don't care about Dubai?
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Maybe not peak level, but peak talent. They showed the talent and mentality to beat Federer.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Consistency is not a teenager's best quality.
robthai
Hall of Fame
Not a valid excuse because according to you they were consistent in beating Fed though but also consistent at losing against Safin and Blake. It wasnt a one off. Safin has 2 wins at slams vs Djokovic. Roddick has a leading h2h against Djokovic. Davydenko has a leading h2h against Nadal.
Pheasant
Legend
The key is to beat the whole field, not just a couple of guys.
Back to Djoker vs Federer: I could go either way on which player peaked higher. But Federer peaked for much longer period of time. I think that the main difference between these two players is Wimbledon.
If we exclude Wimbledon, then Federer leads Djokovic 12-9 in slams. However, through their age 30 seasons, Federer's lead is 10-9 over Djokovic in non-Wimbledon slams. Can Djokovic win one more non-Wimbledon slam to pull even with Federer? That seems reasonable.
I see arguments for either player on clay and hard courts. I'm fine calling those two surfaces a push. But Federer has the clear advance on grass.
Back to Djoker vs Federer: I could go either way on which player peaked higher. But Federer peaked for much longer period of time. I think that the main difference between these two players is Wimbledon.
If we exclude Wimbledon, then Federer leads Djokovic 12-9 in slams. However, through their age 30 seasons, Federer's lead is 10-9 over Djokovic in non-Wimbledon slams. Can Djokovic win one more non-Wimbledon slam to pull even with Federer? That seems reasonable.
I see arguments for either player on clay and hard courts. I'm fine calling those two surfaces a push. But Federer has the clear advance on grass.
abmk
Bionic Poster
if by one of the highest levels you mean after 2004,05,06,07,08,09 & 11 US Opens, then yes.
RS
Bionic Poster
Djokovic is better on slow HC. Miami and IW.
Djokovic is also slightly better on Clay
7 wins vs Nadal while Federer has 2
8 masters 1000 to Federer 6
2011 was stronger than 2004-2009
2012 was as well
2013 was weaker than 2008 but stronger than the rest
2014 weaker than 2008-2009 but stronger than the rest
2015-weaker than 2007-2009 but stronger than the rest
2016-weaker than 2005/2007-2009
2011-2016 had 4 great players while 2004-2009 had 2 and not 3 until 2007
Federer is better on fast or medium fast and Grass
Indoors is very even. Djokovic is the only guy in to win Paris 3 times in a row and WTF 4 times in a row
Federer often missed Paris which is medium paced not as fast as Shanghai,WTF
abmk
Bionic Poster
Miami, sure, Djokovic is clearly better.
IW is close level-wise, but achievements wise, federer is clearly better. Both have 5 wins, but apart from the wins , fed has 3 more finals, while djoko has 1 more.
AO , federer is ahead now with a sh*tload of semis more (better consistency+longevity)
you can have djokovic ahead of slow HC, I have no problem with that. But it is debatable, IMO.
no, he's not.
Fed had to go through a tough draw for RG 2009, while Djoko had a pretty easy one in RG 16.
Fed was able to halt a red-hot delpo in 2009, djoko wasn't able to do to a similar form stan in RG 2015.
only 3 wins of djoko were against prime nadal (madrid 11, rome 11, MC 13), fed had 2.
even almagro, ferrer, fognini, thiem, murray etc. all were beating nadal from 14-16 on clay(fognini, murray multiple times at that )
federer has more masters finals than djoko does on clay (he was stopped by a prime nadal more than djoko was)
also has one RG final more.
2009 was arguably the toughest year of them all. top 10 was stacked and we had so many great matches. 11 and 12 were also strong and you could argue for them as well.
2008 was not stronger than 2009.
2004-05,07-09 were all clearly stronger than 2014-16.
2015 stronger than 2004-05 ? yeah, ok
2004,05 were all considerably stronger than 2014-15 and gap grows when talking about 16.
a deep field with the likes of agassi, hewitt, roddick, safin & then nalbandian, henman, coria, moya etc. considerably eclipses what we had in 2015 or instance. jeez, nadal ended up what #5 in 2015 with no slam semi or masters win to his name.
its not about the # of "great" players in name. djoko had his worst year in 2010 from 2007-16. Roddick in 2003/04 was clearly better for instance.
no, indoors is not very even.
fed is significantly better at the YEC. 1 more YEC and quite a few more finals.
fed has 24 indoor titles to 12 for Novak
djoko was good, but that not that great indoors from 2007-11. (had a few moments like YEC 2008 win, Basel/Paris in 09). only really excellent from 12-15 indoors.
federer OTOH has been excellent indoors for far longer. Hell he won Shanghai, Basel last year b2b.
federer has the peak level, the longevity, clearly better at the YEC.
Paris is the only edge Djoker has.
as far as 4 times in a row at the YEC is concerned, hell, fed would probably have gone 5 in a row if not for the ankle injury in 2005 YEC (he still came to within 2 points of winning that final)
and this is all with indoor surfaces being slowed down quite a bit at djoker's peak - in particular the YEC. it wa sa disgrace tbh.
Last edited:
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If we exclude their best slams, since that's the more reasonable comparison, then Federer leads Djokovic 12-6 in slams.
But the difference between Fed and Djoko is not just Wimb. It's the USO too.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2014 was not stronger than 2004-2007. Cilic-Nishikori slam final and Gulbis in a slam semi.
2015 was not stronger than 2004-2006. A 34 year old was Djoker's most consistent rival. Also, Djokovic didn't have to deal with one single young player, let alone a great one. Nadal also ended at no.5 despite no slam semi and no big titles. I rest my case.
2016 was not stronger than 2004 and 2006. 2016 was the beginning of the incredibly atrocious field that is still continuing. An almost 35 year old Fed on one leg almost reached the Wimb final. Djoker's ridiculous USO draw as well.
Djoker is not better than Fed at IW. They both have 5 titles there and Fed was a whisker from winning a 6th one this year.
Also Djoker is better than Fed on clay overall, bu not at RG IMO.
Last edited:
mike danny
Bionic Poster
AO has not been a slow HC in the last 2 years though. That has helped Fed win 2 more titles.Miami, sure, Djokovic is clearly better.
IW is close level-wise, but achievements wise, federer is clearly better. Both have 5 wins, but apart from the wins , fed has 3 more finals, while djoko has 1 more.
AO , federer is ahead now with a sh*tload of semis more (better consistency+longevity)
you can have djokovic ahead of slow HC, I have no problem with that. But it is debatable, IMO.
no, he's not.
Fed had to go through a tough draw for RG 2009, while Djoko had a pretty easy one in RG 16.
Fed was able to halt a red-hot delpo in 2009, djoko wasn't able to do to a similar form stan in RG 2015.
only 3 wins of djoko were against prime nadal (madrid 11, rome 11, MC 13), fed had 2.
even almagro, ferrer, fognini, thiem, murray etc. all were beating nadal from 14-16 on clay(fognini, murray multiple times at that )
federer has more masters finals than djoko does on clay (he was stopped by a prime nadal more than djoko was)
also has one RG final more.
2009 was arguably the toughest year of them all. top 10 was stacked and we had so many great matches. 11 and 12 were also strong and you could argue for them as well.
2008 was not stronger than 2009.
2004-05,07-09 were all clearly stronger than 2014-16.
2015 stronger than 2004-05 ? yeah, ok
2004,05 were all considerably stronger than 2014-15 and gap grows when talking about 16.
a deep field with the likes of agassi, hewitt, roddick, safin & then nalbandian, henman, coria, moya etc. considerably eclipses what we had in 2015 or instance. jeez, nadal ended up what #5 in 2015 with no slam semi or masters win to his name.
its not about the # of "great" players in name. djoko had his worst year in 2010 from 2007-16. Roddick in 2003/04 was clearly better for instance.
no, indoors is not very even.
fed is significantly better at the YEC. 1 more YEC and quite a few more finals.
fed has 24 indoor titles to 12 for Novak
djoko was good, but that not that great indoors from 2007-11. (had a few moments like YEC 2008 win, Basel/Paris in 09). only really excellent from 12-15 indoors.
federer OTOH has been excellent indoors for far longer. Hell he won Shanghai, Basel last year b2b.
federer has the peak level, the longevity, clearly better at the YEC.
Paris is the only edge Djoker has.
as far as 4 times in a row at the YEC is concerned, hell, fed would probably have gone 5 in a row if not for the ankle injury in 2005 YEC (he still came to within 2 points of winning that final)
and this is all with indoor surfaces being slowed down quite a bit at djoker's peak - in particular the YEC. it wa sa disgrace tbh.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Djoker was stopped by Nadal more often in semis of RG than Federer. So Fed's extra final isn't really a decider.Miami, sure, Djokovic is clearly better.
IW is close level-wise, but achievements wise, federer is clearly better. Both have 5 wins, but apart from the wins , fed has 3 more finals, while djoko has 1 more.
AO , federer is ahead now with a sh*tload of semis more (better consistency+longevity)
you can have djokovic ahead of slow HC, I have no problem with that. But it is debatable, IMO.
no, he's not.
Fed had to go through a tough draw for RG 2009, while Djoko had a pretty easy one in RG 16.
Fed was able to halt a red-hot delpo in 2009, djoko wasn't able to do to a similar form stan in RG 2015.
only 3 wins of djoko were against prime nadal (madrid 11, rome 11, MC 13), fed had 2.
even almagro, ferrer, fognini, thiem, murray etc. all were beating nadal from 14-16 on clay(fognini, murray multiple times at that )
federer has more masters finals than djoko does on clay (he was stopped by a prime nadal more than djoko was)
also has one RG final more.
2009 was arguably the toughest year of them all. top 10 was stacked and we had so many great matches. 11 and 12 were also strong and you could argue for them as well.
2008 was not stronger than 2009.
2004-05,07-09 were all clearly stronger than 2014-16.
2015 stronger than 2004-05 ? yeah, ok
2004,05 were all considerably stronger than 2014-15 and gap grows when talking about 16.
a deep field with the likes of agassi, hewitt, roddick, safin & then nalbandian, henman, coria, moya etc. considerably eclipses what we had in 2015 or instance. jeez, nadal ended up what #5 in 2015 with no slam semi or masters win to his name.
its not about the # of "great" players in name. djoko had his worst year in 2010 from 2007-16. Roddick in 2003/04 was clearly better for instance.
no, indoors is not very even.
fed is significantly better at the YEC. 1 more YEC and quite a few more finals.
fed has 24 indoor titles to 12 for Novak
djoko was good, but that not that great indoors from 2007-11. (had a few moments like YEC 2008 win, Basel/Paris in 09). only really excellent from 12-15 indoors.
federer OTOH has been excellent indoors for far longer. Hell he won Shanghai, Basel last year b2b.
federer has the peak level, the longevity, clearly better at the YEC.
Paris is the only edge Djoker has.
as far as 4 times in a row at the YEC is concerned, hell, fed would probably have gone 5 in a row if not for the ankle injury in 2005 YEC (he still came to within 2 points of winning that final)
and this is all with indoor surfaces being slowed down quite a bit at djoker's peak - in particular the YEC. it wa sa disgrace tbh.
However, Fed has more victories over in-form players at RG than Djokovic. Fed has beaten Delpo in 2009 and Djokovic in 2011. The only notable Djokovic victory at RG against an in-form player is probably against Tsonga in 2012.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
Are we talking prime or peak here?
abmk
Bionic Poster
oh yeah, I meant to type about the RG 2011 semi match, but missed it.
re : semis, well yeah. 2008 and 2013 djoker was stopped in the semi by Nadal
fed was stopped in 2005 RG semi by Nadal.
2007 semi, don't really consider it that much since I think djoker was the weakest of the 4 semi-finalists (yes, even compared to davy at that time).
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Possibly. Djoker really hit if off during the USO series in 2007. That's when he really was a threat to win a slam.
Djoker also defeated stiffer competition to get to the semis at Wimb in 2007 than he did to get to the RG semis that same year. But he also faced weak competition on his way to reaching the semis at RG 2008, so I'm not sure there was much of an improvement. Nadal pretty much took his foot off the gas, otherwise he would have destroyed Djokovic in that semi as well.
abmk
Bionic Poster
He was clearly better in 2008 than in 2007 on clay. He won Rome, gave Nadal a big battle at Hamburg.
2008, he was also Nadal's toughest opponent at RG.
Nadal did let down a bit in the 3rd set, but DJoko has also played some real good stuff to get back in the 3rd set.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...vic-french-open-2008-semi-final-stats.558246/
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Federer's fans have no ovjectivity in their posts, all they write is "everything Federer does is better". For example a guy above said talented Gulbis is bad for a slam semifinal, while he doesn't mention 2006's Bjorkman and Kiefer. Or the assumption that a 33 year old player is a bad opponent even if he destroys the whole field, including players who used to beat him in his "peak".
The only stat supporting them is Fed's winning score in 2004-07, but if that was enough then Federer would be far away from being the best tennis player ever.
The only stat supporting them is Fed's winning score in 2004-07, but if that was enough then Federer would be far away from being the best tennis player ever.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Last 32 slams: Federer 4 titles, Djokovic 11
Modern = better (es. Two asian player will be top20 soon, Two new players hit as rotating as Nadal, Thiem and Sock)
Plus, 2007-16 is the era with most consistent top players (especially 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2015), according to the ATP ranking.
This is my theory. Is it one-sided?
Modern = better (es. Two asian player will be top20 soon, Two new players hit as rotating as Nadal, Thiem and Sock)
Plus, 2007-16 is the era with most consistent top players (especially 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2015), according to the ATP ranking.
This is my theory. Is it one-sided?
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Since 2011 Djokovic vs Federer&Nadal: 24 wins and 8 losses in finals. Federer and Nadal had won 2-0, 3-0 or 3-1 the semifinal 22 times out of 24.
Peak Djokovic is untouchable.
Peak Djokovic is untouchable.
Slightly D1
Professional
AO- Djokovic 7-3
FO- Djokovic 6-4
Wimbledon- Federer 7-3
US Open- Tie 5-5
FO- Djokovic 6-4
Wimbledon- Federer 7-3
US Open- Tie 5-5
Ray Mercer
Hall of Fame
US Open (Old fast court) 10-0 Federer
Wimbledon (old fast cour) 10-0 Federer
French Open - 7-3 Federer (See 2011 FO and Peak Djoker getting smashed by Stan)
Australian (Plexi)slow - 8-2 Djokovic
Australian (Rebound Ace) 5-5
Wimbledon (old fast cour) 10-0 Federer
French Open - 7-3 Federer (See 2011 FO and Peak Djoker getting smashed by Stan)
Australian (Plexi)slow - 8-2 Djokovic
Australian (Rebound Ace) 5-5
