"probably the highest level of tennis that I ever saw."

Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
So Nadal said this about Djokovic after he went 10-1 against Fedal in 2011-2012. Nadal had played peak/prime Federer many times, and yet this was still he assessment.

Are some fans discounting the high level that Djokovic was been able to reach in his prime? Yes, he’s won more titles later in his career, but he’s found a way to play smarter not harder. He can win against anyone not Fedal with 75% of the level he reached at his heights. He’s learned to become more efficient by improving his serve and juicing up his FH to make up for the slight decline in movement, endurance and recovery.

Was Djokovic’s peak level the greatest of all time considering who he was up against and the assessment of his contemporary and greatest rival?
 
N

ND-13

Hall of Fame
Based on results, I would say that it depends on the interval we consider

Over 1-20 matches : Federer / Nadal
Between 30-40 matches - Djokovic
Between 40-100 matches (over an year) - Federer
Peak for 1-5 years - Federer
Peak for 5-12 years - Djokovic
Peak over 12-15 years - Toss up between Fed and Djokovic.
 
jl809

jl809

Hall of Fame
Hitman said:
I thought Nadal said that after Doha 2016, where Djokovic tore him apart.

Did he say that in 2011 also? I cannot remember.
Click to expand...
Yeah it was Doha 16, and understandably so.. I watched it back recently and both players were better than I remember, such that I have started wondering whether it was Djoker’s best match ever. AO 16 SF might have been but it was longer and he fell off a bit in set 3.
 
jl809

jl809

Hall of Fame
Tweener said:
So Nadal said this about Djokovic after he went 10-1 against Fedal in 2011-2012. Nadal had played peak/prime Federer many times, and yet this was still he assessment.

Are some fans discounting the high level that Djokovic was been able to reach in his prime? Yes, he’s won more titles later in his career, but he’s found a way to play smarter not harder. He can win against anyone not Fedal with 75% of the level he reached at his heights. He’s learned to become more efficient by improving his serve and juicing up his FH to make up for the slight decline in movement, endurance and recovery.

Was Djokovic’s peak level the greatest of all time considering who he was up against and the assessment of his contemporary and greatest rival?
Click to expand...
Absolutely not lol
 
Airspun

Airspun

Professional
For those keeping track this is thread #49 from insecure djoker fans still not happy their boy is undisputed goat?!
 
Martin J

Martin J

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is Nadal's toughest opponent with the ability to neutralize his game and to exploit his weak spots better than anyone, so it's not surprising that the best version of Novak leaves Ned with such an impression. He handles Fed (even the best version of him) with less problems.
 
The_Order

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Yeah... because Nadal can see his own level from the other side of the net can't he?

It was a throw away, damage control remark after getting thumped. Nothing more, of course, ******* needs to bring it up because of insecurity...
 
Lozo1016

Lozo1016

Hall of Fame
According to Ultimate Tennis Statistics, Djokovic's 2016 AO Peak ELO is the highest peak ELO of the Open Era. #2 is Borg's Peak ELO following 1980 Wimbledon.

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Peak Elo Ratings

Peak Elo Ratings compare peak player strengths across Eras, overall, by surface, by in/out or by set/game/tie-break
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I thought the Djokovic I saw at IW in 2015-16 was playing the highest level of tennis I’ve seen in more than 30 years of watching pro tournaments regularly in person and on TV since the late Seventies. That version is my BOAT and I had a feeling already then that he would break all the records he needed to earn the mythical ‘ GOAT’ title in the future which he has.

He was a supreme offensive power baseliner hitting everything on the rise from great court position close to the baseline taking time away from the opponent, hitting high pace/spin, having extraordinary consistency and changing angles at will to go DTL hitting small target spots near the sidelines. All this combined to make his opponents run around like a puppet on a string while feeling slowly squeezed by a boa constrictor till they physically/emotionally gave up in most cases in the deciding set. It was extremely entertaining to watch as he also hit all his shots in textbook fashion (except the smash) and seemed to have no weaknesses that could be exploited - not to mention the GOAT BH and return along with hard court footwork.

Not a fan of the man or even some of his on-court antics, but I love watching him play.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
WeekendTennisHack said:
Why fewer slams?
Click to expand...
Because this was the most competitive few years ever in tennis in terms of the level of the top 4 players. Despite disgruntled or delusional TTW experts always performing mental gymnastics to discredit anything after 2008 as “post prime Fed” or whatever, this period of time had Fedalokovic all playing at historically GOAT levels and then you throw Murray and Stan peaking along with Delpo and others showing flashes of absolute brilliance and not shying away from the big moment against these GOATs like the field does nowadays.

He cleaned up in 2011 as I mentioned, then slams in 2012-2014 were tightly contested but Fedal stepped up and played a bit better than he did in some moments, along with Stan playing out of his mind. 2015 was another goat level season. This thread is about whether his peak level may be been the best ever. Sampras called his 2011 season “one of the best” he’d ever seen in his lifetime. Then 2015 happened and he made the final in every single major and masters event he played. Unreal stuff when he was peaking.

I’m not on here trying to ******** or whatever the hell that means. I honestly love all three of the big three, I just feel that Novak gets the most hate and gets his achievements discredited the most so I felt the need to raise this discussion. I myself always thought that Federer’s peak level of quality was the best ever based on the “eye test”, but 2011 and 2015 were insane when I really review the results in hindsight, so it’s hard for me to decide.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Reliving the memories of watching the 2015 Indian Wells made me think of this song. Highest level of tennis I have ever seen from courtside as Federer played great for two sets also before he slowly got ground down physically in the decider. They both bashed from close to the baseline like it was some video game version of tennis.

 
Backspin1183

Backspin1183

Talk Tennis Guru
jl809 said:
Yeah it was Doha 16, and understandably so.. I watched it back recently and both players were better than I remember, such that I have started wondering whether it was Djoker’s best match ever. AO 16 SF might have been but it was longer and he fell off a bit in set 3.
Click to expand...
Early 2016 Nadal wasn't that good. Even Dasco beat him in the first round of AO. Djokovic was in the zone though.
 
D

Deleted member 629564

Guest
Airspun said:
For those keeping track this is thread #49 from insecure djoker fans still not happy their boy is undisputed goat?!
Click to expand...
Yep. They feel insecure because they are aware someone else is much greater when it comes to the most important tennis metrics.
 
initialize

initialize

Hall of Fame
Everyone will have their own opinion on who achieved the highest peak, and for most people it will obviously be Federer.

Tim Henman even agreed that the highest level of tennis he's ever seen is by Federer -- he said this at the end of 2011, Djokovic's peakiest season ever, after Fed trampled Nadal in the WTF final

" I still think that in the right type of conditions, Federer's best tennis is better than anyone else's in the world,' said Henman.

'When you look at the performance of Federer this week against Rafael Nadal - admittedly, Nadal wasn't at his best and it was on an indoor court which favours Federer - the score was 6-3, 6-0 and I have honestly never seen anyone play better."

www.dailymail.co.uk

Federer remains best in the world on his day, says Henman

Roger Federer can still play better tennis than any man on the planet according to Tim Henman, who watched him reach the 100th final of his career yesterday.
www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
initialize said:
Everyone will have their own opinion on who achieved the highest peak, and for most people it will obviously be Federer.

Tim Henman even agreed that the highest level of tennis he's ever seen is by Federer -- he said this at the end of 2011, Djokovic's peakiest season ever, after Fed trampled Nadal in the WTF final

" I still think that in the right type of conditions, Federer's best tennis is better than anyone else's in the world,' said Henman.

'When you look at the performance of Federer this week against Rafael Nadal - admittedly, Nadal wasn't at his best and it was on an indoor court which favours Federer - the score was 6-3, 6-0 and I have honestly never seen anyone play better."

www.dailymail.co.uk

Federer remains best in the world on his day, says Henman

Roger Federer can still play better tennis than any man on the planet according to Tim Henman, who watched him reach the 100th final of his career yesterday.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Click to expand...
It's just tricky to have someone like Henman watching a match where Rafa where not his best and getting trampled by Fed on Fed's preferred surface coming to that conclusion, when you have Rafa himself (having been beaten multiple times on clay and all surfaces by Djokovic that year) himself having played both at their peak/prime on the biggest stages saying that Djokovic's level was the highest he's ever seen. I put more weight on Rafa's assessment for this reason.

If we compare 2006 (Fed's best season) with 2015 (Djokovic's best season), Fed had 3 slams and 4 masters while Djokovic had 3 slams and 6 masters. The competition he faced in getting those big titles was stronger as well. I know we'll probably disagree on that point, but objectively Federer beat 19 top ten players in 2006 while Djokovic beat 31 top ten players in 2015.
 
StannisTheMannis

StannisTheMannis

Hall of Fame
The_Order said:
Yeah... because Nadal can see his own level from the other side of the net can't he?

It was a throw away, damage control remark after getting thumped. Nothing more, of course, ******* needs to bring it up because of insecurity...
Click to expand...
How far must one fall to outright deny Rafael nadals words about who has the highest tennis peak and follow your own useless blind judgement
 
The Fedfather

The Fedfather

Legend
I don't disount peak Djokovic's level, he always had a fair share of scary-good performances, he had the insane 2011 streak, he has amazing overall performance stats too. But when you don't discount his peak level, it is funny then to see this narrative that well, he actually didn't decline significantly plus gained some important advantages. Which would then make you think, how come it's widely accepted that he's playing worse now than at his very best? By virtue of what?

It's always "slight" decline in his movement, endurance and recovery plus better serve and net game when Djokovic, even with openly admitted injuries, is cutting through butter opponents like NextGen and a cramping Alcaraz in Slams or WTF. But before a match against a formiddable young opponent, or after a loss to a young opponent, or after a poor loss when attempting CYGS. That's when the plot about the slight decline and significant improvements gets lost and all of a sudden it's Djokovic being in his mid-30s, being exhausted, being injured, yada, yada, yada.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
The Fedfather said:
I don't disount peak Djokovic's level, he always had a fair share of scary-good performances, he had the insane 2011 streak, he has amazing overall performance stats too. But when you don't discount his peak level, it is funny then to see this narrative that well, he actually didn't decline significantly plus gained some important advantages. Which would then make you think, how come it's widely accepted that he's playing worse now than at his very best? By virtue of what?

It's always "slight" decline in his movement, endurance and recovery plus better serve and net game when Djokovic, even with openly admitted injuries, is cutting through butter opponents like NextGen and a cramping Alcaraz in Slams or WTF. But before a match against a formiddable young opponent, or after a loss to a young opponent, or after a poor loss when attempting CYGS. That's when the plot about the slight decline and significant improvements gets lost and all of a sudden it's Djokovic being in his mid-30s, being exhausted, being injured, yada, yada, yada.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure who you're referring to about the plot about slight decline after losses, but I've said it after he won RG. I'll refer you to his match against Medvedev at the 2022 ATP finals. It was a slugfest with grueling rallies, and Djokovic was literally shaking and pouring water over himself and it was indoors. I think that's a sign of the slight physical decline, and that's my assessment even though he won that match and the tournament. There doesn't have to be some ulterior motive to analyze one's overall condition. He's declined slightly on the physical side but has made some improvements to his game and mentally in order to negate the overall impact on his performances.
 
The Fedfather

The Fedfather

Legend
Tweener said:
I'm not sure who you're referring to about the plot about slight decline after losses, but I've said it after he won RG. I'll refer you to his match against Medvedev at the 2022 ATP finals. It was a slugfest with grueling rallies, and Djokovic was literally shaking and pouring water over himself and it was indoors. I think that's a sign of the slight physical decline, and that's my assessment even though he won that match and the tournament. There doesn't have to be some ulterior motive to analyze one's overall condition. He's declined slightly on the physical side but has made some improvements to his game and mentally in order to negate the overall impact on his performances.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I wasn't referring to you, though I did take the words you used in the OP. It was more me referencing a common sentiment expressed by some posters (about Novak not declining significantly), posters who also express a contrasting sentiment, depending on the outcome of Novak's matches or the potential threat he'll have to face.

I disagree with the notion that Novak hasn't declined significantly and that the improvements in his game negate the decline, but no ill will toward those who just genuinely see it differently. :)
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
The Fedfather said:
Sorry, I wasn't referring to you, though I did take the words you used in the OP. It was more me referencing a common sentiment expressed by some posters (about Novak not declining significantly), posters who also express a contrasting sentiment, depending on the outcome of Novak's matches or the potential threat he'll have to face.

I disagree with the notion that Novak hasn't declined significantly and that the improvements in his game negate the decline, but no ill will toward those who just genuinely see it differently. :)
Click to expand...
No worries, happy to share opinions. I try to be objective in my analysis and I'm not a bot trying to hype "my guy" in these discussions. Like I've said, I love all three of the big three. Rabid fans from all camps come up with ridiculous stuff on here. I think we can agree that Djokovic has declined physically and has not been at his "peak" level since mid 2016. It's just too hard to quantity how much of a decline there has been physically and the impact of the incremental improvements he's made. The field outside of Alcaraz (and Nadal when not out) is weak, especially mentally. But all GOATs clean up soft competition historically, it's not an anomaly that only Djokovic has been able to capitalize on. You can only play/beat who is in front of you.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
BlueB said:
That quote was actually after the Doha 2016 demolition job.
Click to expand...
He said the quote I referenced in 2011: https://www.entersportnews.co.zw/dj...=In 2011, Nadal lost to,ever saw,” Nadal said.

The quote you're referring to in 2016 was:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level."
“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Tweener said:
He said the quote I referenced in 2011: https://www.entersportnews.co.zw/djokovic-pays-price-forbeating-nadal-federer/#:~:text=In 2011, Nadal lost to,ever saw,” Nadal said.

The quote you're referring to in 2016 was:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level."
“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”
Click to expand...
Nadal is the perfect matchup for Djokovic on hard courts.
Toni had already anticipated it in 2005, 2006 when he saw the Serbian player for the first time.
:D
 
Last edited:
BlueB

BlueB

Legend
Tweener said:
He said the quote I referenced in 2011: https://www.entersportnews.co.zw/djokovic-pays-price-forbeating-nadal-federer/#:~:text=In 2011, Nadal lost to,ever saw,” Nadal said.

The quote you're referring to in 2016 was:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level."
“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”
Click to expand...
The article you referenced is from 2023. They don't give a link to the original Nadal's quote.
If you can post the sources for both 2011 and 2016 quotes, I'll stand corrected and I'll apologize for doubting.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
BlueB said:
The article you referenced is from 2023. They don't give a link to the original Nadal's quote.
If you can post the sources for both 2011 and 2016 quotes, I'll stand corrected and I'll apologize for doubting.
Click to expand...
If you read the article I shared, it specifically says

"In 2011, Nadal lost to Djokovic in the finals at six different tournaments on three different surfaces and gave the most succinct evaluation of how well his counterpart performed.

“It was probably the highest level of tennis that I ever saw,” Nadal said."

The article is recent and references 2016, 2017, etc. But it was quoting Nadal from 2011. There's a Yahoo sports article from 2011 with the same quote, referenced in Wikipedia, but Yahoo has since deleted the article so the link fails.

The second quote from 2016 can be found here: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/01/ra...ying-perfect-tennis-better-than-roger-federer
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
“Best ever” lost to fed at rg and loses to most Nadal there, had to save double MP vs 7th best fed at the uso and probably would’ve lost to fed at W had he made the SF. Statistical GOAT but lags a little in BOAT rankings.
 
uscwang

uscwang

Hall of Fame
Tweener said:
He said the quote I referenced in 2011: https://www.entersportnews.co.zw/djokovic-pays-price-forbeating-nadal-federer/#:~:text=In 2011, Nadal lost to,ever saw,” Nadal said.

The quote you're referring to in 2016 was:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level."
“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”
Click to expand...
This is also what I recall. Nadal made this type of comment first after USO 2011 final, with something like but it would be hard to repeat. He praised Novak again after Doha 2016 final.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
fedfan24 said:
“Best ever” lost to fed at rg and loses to most Nadal there, had to save double MP vs 7th best fed at the uso and probably would’ve lost to fed at W had he made the SF. Statistical GOAT but lags a little in BOAT rankings.
Click to expand...
Djok has 3 RG to Fed's 1. Fed played inspired tennis at the 2011 French Open and probably played his best RG match against Nadal that year (and the longest match they ever played at RG against each other) despite losing again to him. Then Djok turned around and beat Roger at RG the very next year. Djokovic is the only player to beat Rafa twice at RG, Fed never managed to get a single win over him there. Let me guess, you're going to reply with Rafa was compromised or not his best and Djok was lucky to get those RG wins or something. No matter how you slice it, Fed never won 4 slams in a row. The Nole slam included beating peak Stan and Murray at AO15, beating Roger at W15, and beating Roger at USO15.
 
BlueB

BlueB

Legend
Tweener said:
If you read the article I shared, it specifically says

"In 2011, Nadal lost to Djokovic in the finals at six different tournaments on three different surfaces and gave the most succinct evaluation of how well his counterpart performed.

“It was probably the highest level of tennis that I ever saw,” Nadal said."

The article is recent and references 2016, 2017, etc. But it was quoting Nadal from 2011. There's a Yahoo sports article from 2011 with the same quote, referenced in Wikipedia, but Yahoo has since deleted the article so the link fails.

The second quote from 2016 can be found here: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/01/ra...ying-perfect-tennis-better-than-roger-federer
Click to expand...
Quote from the link you provided:
"After a thorough 6-1, 6-2 beatdown in the finals of the Qatar Open, Rafael Nadal said that his vanquisher, world No. 1 Novak Djokovic, is playing the best tennis he’s ever seen, "
That's all we've got, for now.
 
M

Matrix968

Semi-Pro
fundrazer said:
Which could be a result of inflated ratings. A lot matchmaking/ranking systems tend to suffer from that as times goes on.
Click to expand...
Actually it's really good algorithm, calculates rankings and results equally for all the players, there's no double standard or math here. Based on the same parameters, produce accurate ratings, no cheating.
 
Tweener

Tweener

Semi-Pro
BlueB said:
Quote from the link you provided:
"After a thorough 6-1, 6-2 beatdown in the finals of the Qatar Open, Rafael Nadal said that his vanquisher, world No. 1 Novak Djokovic, is playing the best tennis he’s ever seen, "
That's all we've got, for now.
Click to expand...
We're splitting hairs, but here's another quote from Nadal at 2011 before the ATP WTF: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-is-the-most-fun-tennis-player-to-watch-today

"Novak had an unbelievable season," Nadal said before the ATP World Tour Finals last season. "It's probably the highest level of tennis that I ever saw."

He has essentially said the same thing twice, once in 2011 and once in 2016. It only serves to strengthen the point.
 
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