Proof it's not gear that causes tennis elbow golfers elbow

tlm

G.O.A.T.
One with poor technique and timing will be able to arm the shot no matter how heavy the racket is and end up with worse GE, TE.


I’m told that I only arm and muscle the ball but I do not have arm problems, plus I use full poly at 70 lbs. tension.

I’ve mentioned this many times but few if any listen. If you want to avoid TE and GE you need to do a complete forearm workout at least twice a week.

Almost everyone waits until they get TE before they do anything about it. But then it’s going to take a long time to recover from. I got TE years back from fly fishing not tennis, but it was tough to get through it and I was much younger.

Then later I got into tennis and I could feel some soreness in the elbow so I started doing complete forearm workouts and no problems ever since. You need strong forearms and wrists to avoid arm problems.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I’m told that I only arm and muscle the ball but I do not have arm problems, plus I use full poly at 70 lbs. tension.

I’ve mentioned this many times but few if any listen. If you want to avoid TE and GE you need to do a complete forearm workout at least twice a week.

Almost everyone waits until they get TE before they do anything about it. But then it’s going to take a long time to recover from. I got TE years back from fly fishing not tennis, but it was tough to get through it and I was much younger.

Then later I got into tennis and I could feel some soreness in the elbow so I started doing complete forearm workouts and no problems ever since. You need strong forearms and wrists to avoid arm problems.

Just finished my Flexbar workout. It definitely helps.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
I never really remember suffered from either, yet even in my teens hit 1hbh.

At the same time, I competed in sailing, and pulled ropes for endless hrs on the lake practicing all summer. Tennis was only a spare time hobby and something we did in the winter after I took on sailing more seriously in my teens.

Later in life golf and bowling has strengthened my forearms along with dumbells in the gym. I guess the weaker parts are giving in, like shoulder and wrist hitting some fat shots on the golf course with blades and really robust tour shafts.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
After 25 years absence of tennis, got into a shop and bought Bab PD Roddick GTwith full bed of polys. No trouble, what so ever. Replaced the other with PD Tour. Nothing.

It is really intresting, that so many suffers after changed gear or strings.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

philosoup

Rookie
Shock and vibration in the trivial amounts caused by playing tennis doesn't cause injury; misuse can, and overuse can.
Shock and vibration in even tiny amounts CAN cause major damages. Vibrations of some wavelengths can penetrate through and be magnified by certain part of our body to cause damages there. Even some weapons were made this way. Tennis equipment is not that type of category, but over time, some combinations of them have the potential to cause undesirable effects.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
It would be interesting to have some statistics. Let's say you examine two groups of people aged 30 years. Both groups have been playing tennis with similar gear since they were 10 years old. One group self taught, the other properly coached since the beginning. The prevalence of elbow problems compared between these two groups.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
The answer is it depends on the individual.
I think being silly, greedy, aggressive without a fundementally sound technique ie going for a winner unnecessarily often, trying to hit as hard as possible too often plays the biggest role. Speaking from experience! I am 100% sure hitting the ball nice and relaxed without a crazy mentality like Edberg here will fix this problem. I will prove it.:D

 
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rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I’m told that I only arm and muscle the ball but I do not have arm problems, plus I use full poly at 70 lbs. tension.

I’ve mentioned this many times but few if any listen. If you want to avoid TE and GE you need to do a complete forearm workout at least twice a week.

Almost everyone waits until they get TE before they do anything about it. But then it’s going to take a long time to recover from. I got TE years back from fly fishing not tennis, but it was tough to get through it and I was much younger.

Then later I got into tennis and I could feel some soreness in the elbow so I started doing complete forearm workouts and no problems ever since. You need strong forearms and wrists to avoid arm problems.
Yeah. Strength in your body helps. That's why the pros do it.

And yes you are all arm.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Golfers elbow, on the other side is more of a stretching issue, which comes (in golf) from duffed fat shots more than gripping too hard. Could also be achieved in tennis serve, if you have too wide trophy position.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Can you expound on this? How does having a wide trophy position contribute to golfers elbow?

Asking for a friend.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Can you expound on this? How does having a wide trophy position contribute to golfers elbow?

Asking for a friend.

If your elbow is like 75-90° after you’ve ”dropped” leading with the elbow and having good to excellent shoulder rotation, the force forward will break your elbow sideways, not towards the free axis of the joint. It will accelerate fiercly and stretch the ligament at the inner side of your elbow. That will also initiate cartwheeling, yet that is the most undesired motion in a serve.

Dropping the racket down and fist inside will allow the acceleration towards the elbow bone and accelerate the fist thru your upper arm by extending the elbow, not sideways to your elbow.

Shoulder inner rotation shall appear after you’ve extended the elbow. Getting that arm close to straight or straight before ISR really starts is essential. Otherwise it shall break your elbow sideways.

Throwing basics and fundamentals of the throwing motion. Use your joints into directions, they are designed for!


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
It must be the gear only. Every single person using Bab rackets in the world suffers from elbow problems!

Well, this is what I’ve been using since I broke the Roddick GT... NO ELBOW ISSUES.
93086942cbc16291613ea2ec5525a477.jpg

Still have the other Roddick in my bag and use it for doubles, cause it’s less head heavy than the Tour I have.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
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time_fly

Hall of Fame
I had tennis elbow in each elbow successively starting a few months after switching to the Pure Strike. I have been playing regularly for the past 6 years and hadn’t had any issues until then. I let it heal and switched frames and haven’t had an elbow issue again. So it’s hard for me to believe the equipment wasn’t a big factor.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I had tennis elbow in each elbow successively starting a few months after switching to the Pure Strike. I have been playing regularly for the past 6 years and hadn’t had any issues until then. I let it heal and switched frames and haven’t had an elbow issue again. So it’s hard for me to believe the equipment wasn’t a big factor.
Sounds like the racket in your case. But I'm sure there are others who have used similar rackets for years without developing tennis elbow. Fognini comes to mind.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This recent research examines the effect of racket off center line ball impacts.

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/6841

"RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BALL IMPACT LOCATION AND JOINT ANGLE CHANGES FOR ONE-HANDED TENNIS BACKHAND GROUNDSTROKES
Mark King, Agnes Hau, Glen Blenkinso

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to investigate the effect of off-longitudinal axis and off-lateral axis ball-racket impact locations on racket and lower arm joint angle changes for one-handed tennis backhand ground strokes. Three-dimensional racket and wrist angular kinematic data were recorded for fourteen university tennis players. Off-longitudinal axis ball-racket impact locations explained over 70% of the variation in racket rotation about the longitudinal axis and wrist flexion / extension angles during the period immediately following impad. Off-lateral axis ball-racket impact locations had a less clear cut influence on racket and lower arm rotations. This study has confirmed that off-longitudinal impacts blow the longitudinal axis cause forced wrist flexion and established that there can be large differences in forced wrist flexion from individual to individual. "

View the PDF for the full report.

I interpret the "longitudinal axis to be the center line of the racket. King et al have several publications on this subject in recent years. Look at those publications for more information. The paper's references also have some scientific research on tennis elbow over the years, an informative list .

Suggest you read the summations in the Abstract, Introduction,....Conclusions to see their points. Then dig into the publication for their experiments. This is a brief publication for a conference. We may have to look at some earlier King et al publications to better understand the details of the experiments. Use Google Scholar to search for additional King et al publications.

Don't take my interpretation as I need to verify - In my opinion, they seem to be interested in low impacts below the racket center line, possibly during eccentric muscle action (muscle lengthening - eccentric = away from center) of certain muscles, and with an interest in the added wrist flexion from off center line impacts that especially stresses the Tennis Elbow tendons that are injured. In general, muscle lengthening with eccentric muscle forces (forced muscle lengthening) has been mentioned as increasing injury risk.

Off racket center line impacts have an influence on tennis elbow injuries. Rackets and strings also have an influence. Other factors have an influence. I don't think the main causes of TE are well enough understood and can be ranked at this time. But the King et al research on racket off center line impacts seems like one reasonable candidate to keep in mind.

These racket rotations immediately following impacts show up in high speed videos. Anybody with a high speed video camera with small motion blur can look to see how off center line their impacts are and how their wrists might respond.
 
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movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
This is why manufacturers have been increasing twist weight over the last couple of years. It increases comfort and health at a loss of maneuverability.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Now getting closer!
Novak has withdrawn from the Mubadala WTC exhibition event due to pain in his right elbow. The Serbian star was scheduled to return to tennis on Friday, December 29, after being out of the game for nearly six months.

“I am terribly disappointed that I am forced to withdraw from the Mubadala World Tennis Championship. Unfortunately, in the past few days I started to feel pain in the elbow and after several tests, my medical team has advised me not to risk anything, to withdraw from the tournament and to immediately continue with the therapies,” Novak said.

http://novakdjokovic.com/en/news/tennis/novak-withdraws-from-abu-dhabi-due-to-elbow-problem/
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Novak has withdrawn from the Mubadala WTC exhibition event due to pain in his right elbow. The Serbian star was scheduled to return to tennis on Friday, December 29, after being out of the game for nearly six months.

“I am terribly disappointed that I am forced to withdraw from the Mubadala World Tennis Championship. Unfortunately, in the past few days I started to feel pain in the elbow and after several tests, my medical team has advised me not to risk anything, to withdraw from the tournament and to immediately continue with the therapies,” Novak said.

http://novakdjokovic.com/en/news/tennis/novak-withdraws-from-abu-dhabi-due-to-elbow-problem/
Now spot on:p.
I did quite a bit of google search today about the details of his elbow problem and what sort of surgery he underwent but couldnt find anything except 'elbow injury'.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
Many repetitive strain and repetitive impact injuries have many contributing factors rather than a single cause. Equipment that reduces peak impact forces and torques will tend to reduce the incidence of these injuries, and equipment that increases peak impact forces and torques will tend to increase the incidence of these injuries.

In the past 20 years or so, there has been an overemphasis on equipment among sportsmen compared with technique or other injury factors. But suboptimal equipment can still be part of the problem and improvements in equipment can still be part of the solution.

My experience in any sport has been that real progress over time has elements of improved equipment, technique, focus, and fitness.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
There is another interesting issue that researcher D. Knudson had emphasized in the past, whether the wrist is flexed or extended for the one hand backhand. See his 2006 book on tennis biomechnics for some interesting commentary.

I don't know about the current status of that issue, but we can all look at ATP players hitting one hand backhands and do some rough stats of our own. They seem to mostly have extended wrists on one hand backhands. Dimitrov seems to show wrist flexion more often. Study the pictures or videos and form your own conclusions.

Search: one hand backhand pictures

This one is close, I call this extended because the finger bones go up from the wrist.
Federer-Backhand-Grip.jpg


richard-gasquet-backhand-07-56a9431f5f9b58b7d0f9c397.jpg


Search: Dimitrov one hand backhand pictures

Mostly Dimitrov pictures are extended but it is easier to find pictures with Dimitrov's wrist flexed. Stats not known for players in general or Dimitrov or the circumstances, but you will see a lot of extended wrists.
grigor-dimitrov-08-56a944103df78cf772a55583.jpg
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Making a fist will look easily extended, yet it is neutral.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Well, I will ask again. If it is the vibration and shock, why is it impossible to develop tennis elbow if you hit forehands only? ie no backhand, no use of the outer/extensor side of the elbow.

I'm not looking to shoot your ideas down. I think you're right - technique flaws are a fundamental issue when we get into the whole ball-o-wax that is arm ailments and injuries among tennis players. But I'm of the mindset that nobody has perfect technique, including the killers on TV who compete to earn their lunch money. The pros do employ significantly better technique than mere mortals like ourselves more often for sure. So that helps with reducing wear and tear on the soft tissues in their arms despite the fact that they play all the time.

I'm mending some real-deal tennis elbow right now and this is the first arm ailment I've had in all my tennis years - I'm a month away from birthday #52. My technique certainly doesn't flirt with perfection, but I've stayed plenty healthy through the years despite a very busy schedule of playing, teaching, and coaching. I had a workout with one of the guys I coached in high school who now plays on a small college team and when I woke up the next day, I knew that I had a significant issue going on.

Not a case of tennis elbow so acute that I couldn't hold a glass of water, but it was MIGHTY uncomfortable on several days when my arm was particularly grumpy over the next couple of weeks. I've played a few times since this onset and I can honestly say that hitting one-handed backhands and serves at full speed were no problem. The real whoa Nellie pain came along when I caught an occasional forehand a little late. Bad technique. But I have to assume that it was my forehand technique that initially did it, since that's exactly what aggravated it when I did it again - no other shot.

What changed? I was playing with the same super arm-friendly Volkl C10's that I've enjoyed for years, I wasn't hitting with my pal after an exhausting day on the courts, and I was at the end of my coaching season with the high school kids, so I certainly wasn't rusty. I sampled a full bed of poly (fresh poly tensioned at 43 lbs.) and didn't even use it for the entire workout. So it's my own dang fault for tap dancing in a minefield - I knew better and tried it anyway thinking I could proceed with caution.

Bad technique is a fundamental stressor for any player's arm, but I'm sure that certain equipment can function as a more effective transmitter of impact shock. Equipment is absolutely a contributor to arm troubles in at least some cases. That being said, I don't think it's realistic to try and boil down the root cause of every arm injury to just one thing. That's why we get into these discussions - fine by me considering how ferociously cold it's turned out there for the time being. Can't even ride my bike on the trak-stand in the garage. This is what the surfers call "burrr-ito!!"

As a tennis coach/teacher, I can't just say that it's okay to play with a soft racquet and string combo, but then go out there and take violent swipes at the ball all day trying to emulate your favorite pro. But I've also seen a lot more than just one or two cases among the locals in my area where players both young and older have run into injuries shortly after switching into harsher equipment including poly strings. And some of those cases included higher level players. Folks who have me string their racquets never get to switch from a softer string into a poly setup without first talking it over.

Every injury brings a very unique set of circumstances, so I think it's impossible to boil all of them down to one common denominator. But decent technique AND cozy gear are both among the highest priorities for everybody.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
And using Pro Kennex 'cured' my TE although I have now switched to an arm friendly Prince. It may well be a technique issue but it seems some rackets punish poor technique like gripping tightly more than others.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Grip size and grip pressure accordingly defenately plays a role and the twist resistance of the racket on off center hits.

Overall strength in the playing arm and forearm is also important factors. If you have to grip the stick close to your max every time, you hit, it will sooner than later become an overuse issue.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Making a fist will look easily extended, yet it is neutral.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

I have to check on how zero degrees is measured for wrist extension & flexion. There is a prescribed method.

Regardless of what is called zero for flexion or extension, the wrist of skilled players has a look that the back of the hand is closer to the forearm. If I saw in videos of my one hand backhand drive that my wrist was more flexed than high level players I would look into this issue.

Thread on this issue and definitions of flexion of the wrist. Dimitrov is mentioned again.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/wrist-flexion-on-1hbh.519468/

I have seen wrist joint pictures that support both views, Pete Player's and mine.

I go with the 5th metacarpal (connected to little finger) being in line with the ulna as being neutral, zero degrees, for flexion or extension.

But for this safety issue, comparisons to videos of high level backhands would take priority.

Two issues come to mind as to why this is important:
1) In flexion, the muscles that are injured in TE are lengthened. I don't know how close to the end of their range of motion those muscles might be or how that matters for injury.
2) Forced extension or muscle stretching, 'eccentric contraction', has been associated with injury risk especially if a second event might increase the stress. Speculation -- Take the second event to be ball impact. The number of Actin & Myosin cross bridges that exist in a muscle are dependent on the muscle length. If a greater number of cross bridges exist at a certain muscle length then ball impact might transmit more force to the tendons that are injured in TE. ? I have seen no basis, research, etc for this speculation. But I have seen comments, for example by D. Knudson, that injuries are often believed to be associated somehow with forced muscle eccentric contractions.
 
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