Pushing wins. Pushing AND hooking is unbeatable.

pabletion

Hall of Fame
I'm in this whatsapp group with about 45 tennis players, and we try and hold a "ranking" where the idea is to play everyone and establish ratings for each player, so in the near future we'll organize better, more evenly distribuited tournaments. It has been a lot of fun, so far I'm ranked No. 1, but with two or four players who can definitely catch up and even pass me, and others that have a very low level. All of the matches I've played so far (25 matches!) have been a lot of fun with great people and new friends even. Until last night...............

I played this guy I've been asking to play for about a year, and he always had something that didnt allow him to play. He had played 7 matches, with 7 wins. As of yesterday, his record is 9-0. He has the most horrible, unorthodox playing style I've ever seen, he hits his FLAT forehand standing parallel to the net, and he moves back this way too, it even seems he's gonna fall backwards... 2hbh that he just uses to bunt the ball back, and a strange serve with a semi-eastern fh grip. He runs down everything, when the ball goes to his forehand and hes got a go, he just fires it FLAT crosscourt, barely going over the net and landing practically at the baseline. Effective, nonetheless, but easy to dismantle with heavy topspin and high shots.

Anyways, I knew it could be a tricky match, his style is weird, but, in a way, effective, he is fast and gets to every ball, you never know whats coming. BUT, and heres the big but, he HOOKS calls too. This was the problem, not his style, but that he is one of those players who hangs on and just knows when to hook calls. We were playing to 9 games, very even, I was struggling, had played at noon so I was tired and felt my ball was just not heavy, I was just rolling it, couldnt do much with it. Serve was very bad, plenty of doubles (Ive been struggling with this in the recent weeks), and his style doesnt help me at all. This and it was windy, which really bothers me. All of this is ok, its a part of the gae and it happens, and I have no problem loosing even when I feel I shouldve won and somehow I pile up the UE and end up just not pulling it off. I get mad at myself when this happens, but koodos to the other guy that was able to pull it off.

But this guy..... He decided to hook a dtl forehand I hit from one of his big crosscourt forehands, there was just no way that you can say it was CLEARLY out, to me, it smacked the line it seemed, on the outer part of the sideline, but clearly landing on it. This was on a game point when we were around 5-5, him serving. And it was one of those calls where you know theyre hooking you and standing their ground. He was like "out" and then immediately moved to the other side without glancing back or even staring at where the ball landed. I just stood there and said "C'mon..... you sure? It looked like it was right on the line from here". He was just "nope, out." What am I gonna do? Just went "if you say so..." and just changed sides shaking my head.

He won his serve, up 6-5, now its me serving, it was either a 0-15 or 15-30, but he let a sitter in mid court, around shoulder height to my 2hbh, I hit it crosscourt with plenty of topspin and landed TWO INCHES inside the baseline, it didnt even touch the baseline and the dude calls it out, same attitude as before. At this point I was very frustrated with the whole match and particularly with the way I had to play, grinding because I wasnt feeling it, bad day. I hit this great shot at a big moment and he calls it out. I lost it there "What? No way, thats IN! Its not even touching the baseline!" and he just goes "No, its out, clearly out". I go "you cant call that one out, its nowhere the baseline Im right there and Im seeing the ball land about 2 inches from the baseline, theres no way!" So his only out was "Well if you want lets replay the point". "Why should we replay??? Its my point!" And he goes "Well, Im calling it out, so its out, but we can replay the point".

This match was over at that point. I of course lost the game and the next two games, it was horrible, I did feel robbed, and it doesnt have to do with his game style or the fact that I couldnt figured it out, it wouldve been okay to loose and I wouldve just been mad at me, but on such a crappy night, feeling that I was just playing poorly and for him to pull this off, just p!ssed me off. I just told him when we were at net "no wonder youre unbeaten, theres no way anyone can beat you when youre hooking like this"

Then I told him to fck off when he insisted that ball had been out and whatever... These are the type of players I never want to play ever again, and if I ever play against him on a tournament, Im asking for a supervisor right away. Off my list. Good riddance.

Rant over, feel better!
 

spun_out

Semi-Pro
When did this happen? Where was it? Because I swear I saw another post that might be related to yours. I can't find it now, but if I recall correctly, the guy said something like:

man, I played this guy who's been bugging me about playing. I've not been wanting to play him because he has a reputation of being a hot head who gets upset at close calls despite the fact that everyone around here knows that he's a hooker. So I finally play him, and sure enough, he is making close calls everywhere, but I was too scared to upset him so I called every close call in. But it just got to be too much. At critical points, he would hook me big time, so I decided to execute my plan B. On a critical point, I hooked him back. Sure enough he explodes and then melts down. He even cursed me out before storming off. I mean, really? It's just a social gathering.
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
Cool excuses OP. So you let two points swing the match. Nice mental toughness.

Nope. Not just two points. There were plenty of them, just these two at very critical points that caused me those two games at the end. Like I said, I might have lost in spite of these two points, or the others that might not have been as crucial, and it wouldve been ok.

But yeah, sometimes you have a bad day and you storm off mentally way too soon. I'll grant you that one. Nevertheless.....................
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
When did this happen? Where was it? Because I swear I saw another post that might be related to yours. I can't find it now, but if I recall correctly, the guy said something like:

man, I played this guy who's been bugging me about playing. I've not been wanting to play him because he has a reputation of being a hot head who gets upset at close calls despite the fact that everyone around here knows that he's a hooker. So I finally play him, and sure enough, he is making close calls everywhere, but I was too scared to upset him so I called every close call in. But it just got to be too much. At critical points, he would hook me big time, so I decided to execute my plan B. On a critical point, I hooked him back. Sure enough he explodes and then melts down. He even cursed me out before storming off. I mean, really? It's just a social gathering.

Guatemala? But believe me.... there were NO close calls coming from his end. None whatsoever. Not when he's bunting the ball back to the middle. It all sounds familiar, the cursing at the end and all (oops), EXCEPT for the hooking from my part.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
I'm in this whatsapp group with about 45 tennis players, and we try and hold a "ranking" where the idea is to play everyone and establish ratings for each player, so in the near future we'll organize better, more evenly distribuited tournaments. It has been a lot of fun, so far I'm ranked No. 1, but with two or four players who can definitely catch up and even pass me, and others that have a very low level. All of the matches I've played so far (25 matches!) have been a lot of fun with great people and new friends even. Until last night...............

I played this guy I've been asking to play for about a year, and he always had something that didnt allow him to play. He had played 7 matches, with 7 wins. As of yesterday, his record is 9-0. He has the most horrible, unorthodox playing style I've ever seen, he hits his FLAT forehand standing parallel to the net, and he moves back this way too, it even seems he's gonna fall backwards... 2hbh that he just uses to bunt the ball back, and a strange serve with a semi-eastern fh grip. He runs down everything, when the ball goes to his forehand and hes got a go, he just fires it FLAT crosscourt, barely going over the net and landing practically at the baseline. Effective, nonetheless, but easy to dismantle with heavy topspin and high shots.

Anyways, I knew it could be a tricky match, his style is weird, but, in a way, effective, he is fast and gets to every ball, you never know whats coming. BUT, and heres the big but, he HOOKS calls too. This was the problem, not his style, but that he is one of those players who hangs on and just knows when to hook calls. We were playing to 9 games, very even, I was struggling, had played at noon so I was tired and felt my ball was just not heavy, I was just rolling it, couldnt do much with it. Serve was very bad, plenty of doubles (Ive been struggling with this in the recent weeks), and his style doesnt help me at all. This and it was windy, which really bothers me. All of this is ok, its a part of the gae and it happens, and I have no problem loosing even when I feel I shouldve won and somehow I pile up the UE and end up just not pulling it off. I get mad at myself when this happens, but koodos to the other guy that was able to pull it off.

But this guy..... He decided to hook a dtl forehand I hit from one of his big crosscourt forehands, there was just no way that you can say it was CLEARLY out, to me, it smacked the line it seemed, on the outer part of the sideline, but clearly landing on it. This was on a game point when we were around 5-5, him serving. And it was one of those calls where you know theyre hooking you and standing their ground. He was like "out" and then immediately moved to the other side without glancing back or even staring at where the ball landed. I just stood there and said "C'mon..... you sure? It looked like it was right on the line from here". He was just "nope, out." What am I gonna do? Just went "if you say so..." and just changed sides shaking my head.

He won his serve, up 6-5, now its me serving, it was either a 0-15 or 15-30, but he let a sitter in mid court, around shoulder height to my 2hbh, I hit it crosscourt with plenty of topspin and landed TWO INCHES inside the baseline, it didnt even touch the baseline and the dude calls it out, same attitude as before. At this point I was very frustrated with the whole match and particularly with the way I had to play, grinding because I wasnt feeling it, bad day. I hit this great shot at a big moment and he calls it out. I lost it there "What? No way, thats IN! Its not even touching the baseline!" and he just goes "No, its out, clearly out". I go "you cant call that one out, its nowhere the baseline Im right there and Im seeing the ball land about 2 inches from the baseline, theres no way!" So his only out was "Well if you want lets replay the point". "Why should we replay??? Its my point!" And he goes "Well, Im calling it out, so its out, but we can replay the point".

This match was over at that point. I of course lost the game and the next two games, it was horrible, I did feel robbed, and it doesnt have to do with his game style or the fact that I couldnt figured it out, it wouldve been okay to loose and I wouldve just been mad at me, but on such a crappy night, feeling that I was just playing poorly and for him to pull this off, just p!ssed me off. I just told him when we were at net "no wonder youre unbeaten, theres no way anyone can beat you when youre hooking like this"

Then I told him to fck off when he insisted that ball had been out and whatever... These are the type of players I never want to play ever again, and if I ever play against him on a tournament, Im asking for a supervisor right away. Off my list. Good riddance.

Rant over, feel better!
I've been in that scenario too many times...
It's why i adopted my mantra of "if I hit the line, they will call it out"... to let myself get over the inevitable bad/questionable line call, and move on and just focus on doing what i can to win the match (despite "spotting" 4 inches of court all around...)

IMO, especially in a "social" impromptu "whatsapp" group league, with standings... it's better to just avoid jerks like that... life's too short.
I had joined a club ladder that was self moderated... came across a player (think 3.5 hacker/junk baller), and cheater (who I later realized had a reputation)... 3 bad line calls later, I'm serving up 4-1... i hit a serve that was literally ~6 inches from any line... his response... "I did not see it, so it was out"... laughing and thinking to myself, "you don't even know how to cheat well!"... i went to shake his hand, and resigned, saying he's too good... a few weeks later he was no longer in the ladder, too many complaints about his poor sportsmanship.

and yeah, if it's a tourney, I'll call a line judge asap.. otherwise I'll let it get to me, and I'll fall apart mentally (no bad calls needed).
 

OrangePower

Legend
Hooking happens sometimes, whether intentional or not. I would say 90+% of players make fair calls, but there is the other 10%...
Couple of weeks ago I played a guy who it seemed to me called any ball landing on the baseline out. I can't be 100% sure but usually I have a pretty good sense of where my ball landed, and every single deep one that was close he called out. Well at least he was consistent haha. Must have been at least 10 calls that I would have challenged if we had hawkeye! How many of those were actually bad calls, and would it have changed the outcome (I lost in 3 close sets)? Dunno. And was it deliberate? Also dunno. Either way, nothing you can do except try not let it get to you, and soldier on...
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
Hooking happens sometimes, whether intentional or not. I would say 90+% of players make fair calls, but there is the other 10%...
Couple of weeks ago I played a guy who it seemed to me called any ball landing on the baseline out. I can't be 100% sure but usually I have a pretty good sense of where my ball landed, and every single deep one that was close he called out. Well at least he was consistent haha. Must have been at least 10 calls that I would have challenged if we had hawkeye! How many of those were actually bad calls, and would it have changed the outcome (I lost in 3 close sets)? Dunno. And was it deliberate? Also dunno. Either way, nothing you can do except try not let it get to you, and soldier on...

Yeah I agree... Just wanted to vent. At the end you just let it go, chose not to play with them unless you have to.
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
When he asked to replay the point he admitted he wasn't sure about his call, so you can claim the point.

Sure, but at that point I was just frustrated with the whole situation, coulve done that, or just call it quits, tell him tu bugger off and just take the match, just wasnt up for that last night. Its not that big a deal, if he wants to win like that and be undefeated with questionable material (yeah, I've talked to other members of the group as well, they have similar claims) be my guest, who cares. I want nothing to do with that guy anymore, I would gladly play with him again, because that weird counterpuncher (pusher) style is a challenge, but by the way I felt during this match, no thanks. There are other crafty players who slice and dice and charge the net in the group I can play with, and I play with the other member regularly so why bother.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
If you play tennis with strangers, expect hooking to happen. It's like the faceless internet. People have no shame in those situations. If you want to play fun, fair tennis, find a bunch of guys you know around your level and set up a weekly match. Friends rarely hook friends for fear of retribution.

I only get mad at my wife for crap calls, because I want her to get better and not get a reputation for hooking. We play on clay so she has an excellent opportunity to examine marks (yet rarely does). She's pretty good around the baseline but tends to call any serve down the T as Out. It's a work in progress.

Against other players, I use hooking situations as a way to test my mental toughness. Can i quickly set the anger aside and focus? There really isn't anything you can do to change a person's mind once they are set and determined, so you need to find inner fortitude to not let it bother you.

All adverse situations on a tennis court are opportunities to get better at something. Being hooked? Learn to stay focused and win with safer margins. Facing a sandbagger? Yay, free hit against a stronger player. Being able to turn negatives into positives is a skill worth having.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
Dang that's a tough way to lose a match. Had one of the following just happened sounds like the OP would have won.
  • Get the benefit of the doubt on a couple of close calls
  • Played a player with better shots
  • OP not been so tired
  • OP been able to execute his topspin shots a little better
Surely I missed one or two things.
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
Dang that's a tough way to lose a match. Had one of the following just happened sounds like the OP would have won.
  • Get the benefit of the doubt on a couple of close calls
  • Played a player with better shots
  • OP not been so tired
  • OP been able to execute his topspin shots a little better
Surely I missed one or two things.

Yup. Like I said, I didnt loose the match because of those two points, but it was the boiling point for me. It couldve gone either way, him playing, well, "smart" tennis, and running down eveything just waiting for my errors, and not even having to hook those two balls and have me melt down.

I agree its part of Tournament play and playing w strangers. I do have buddies with whom I play for fun and train hard and hooking is out of the equation. Glad I dont HAVE to put up with guys like these to get to play tennis.
 
Sure, but at that point I was just frustrated with the whole situation, coulve done that, or just call it quits, tell him tu bugger off and just take the match, just wasnt up for that last night. Its not that big a deal, if he wants to win like that and be undefeated with questionable material (yeah, I've talked to other members of the group as well, they have similar claims) be my guest, who cares. I want nothing to do with that guy anymore, I would gladly play with him again, because that weird counterpuncher (pusher) style is a challenge, but by the way I felt during this match, no thanks. There are other crafty players who slice and dice and charge the net in the group I can play with, and I play with the other member regularly so why bother.
I hear you, I wouldn't play with him again either. I just like to have a little fun with the cheaters while I'm stuck with them. :)
 
Ahhh man thats tough! With those guys I just dont go through the emotional frustration of getting hooked, I just walk up, shake their hand and say "well played". Tennis is all fun at the end of the day.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Guatemala? But believe me.... there were NO close calls coming from his end. None whatsoever. Not when he's bunting the ball back to the middle. It all sounds familiar, the cursing at the end and all (oops), EXCEPT for the hooking from my part.
that's interesting because in the original post you stated this;
'
He runs down everything, when the ball goes to his forehand and hes got a go, he just fires it FLAT crosscourt, barely going over the net and landing practically at the baseline.
'
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
that's interesting because in the original post you stated this;
'
He runs down everything, when the ball goes to his forehand and hes got a go, he just fires it FLAT crosscourt, barely going over the net and landing practically at the baseline.
'

Was describing his usual style. Didnt play like that at all during our match, never was able to go for his flat crosscourt fh, never had a go at it or couldnt.
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
When did this happen? Where was it? Because I swear I saw another post that might be related to yours. I can't find it now, but if I recall correctly, the guy said something like:

man, I played this guy who's been bugging me about playing. I've not been wanting to play him because he has a reputation of being a hot head who gets upset at close calls despite the fact that everyone around here knows that he's a hooker. So I finally play him, and sure enough, he is making close calls everywhere, but I was too scared to upset him so I called every close call in. But it just got to be too much. At critical points, he would hook me big time, so I decided to execute my plan B. On a critical point, I hooked him back. Sure enough he explodes and then melts down. He even cursed me out before storming off. I mean, really? It's just a social gathering.

I wanna SEE this post...... Almost sounds familiar ;)
 

mucat

Hall of Fame
If someone hit a DTL shot against me hitting close to the line and I am at the other side of the baseline, I will usually ask my opponent what's the call.
The person hitting the DTL shots has way better view on wide call, I might have a good view on if it is long.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
If someone hit a DTL shot against me hitting close to the line and I am at the other side of the baseline, I will usually ask my opponent what's the call.
The person hitting the DTL shots has way better view on wide call, I might have a good view on if it is long.

I passed my opponent and happened to be straddling the sideline as I watched the ball land. He watched it but obviously his head was moving as he turned. Instead of making a call, he turned back and looked at me as if to say "I think that was out but I'm not sure so I'll go with whatever call you make". I called it out.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Was describing his usual style. Didnt play like that at all during our match, never was able to go for his flat crosscourt fh, never had a go at it or couldnt.
yes, of course, as evidenced by another part of your original post :rolleyes:;
'
But this guy..... He decided to hook a dtl forehand I hit from one of his big crosscourt forehands
'

hey, I wasn't there, I only go by what you wrote.....
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
yes, of course, as evidenced by another part of your original post :rolleyes:;
'
But this guy..... He decided to hook a dtl forehand I hit from one of his big crosscourt forehands
'

hey, I wasn't there, I only go by what you wrote.....

Um.... Yeah? ONE. Out of many many many many.

What I meant was that he barely went fot his fh. This one was one of the very few.
 

letstakeourshirtsoff

Professional
that #1 spot in your whatsapp group must mean a lot to you.

is whining on tt about losses in rec matches a thing now?

if this opponent truly is such a gangsta on hooking, it will eventually show and you guys can kick him out of the group, problem solved.

don't forget to post about your losses to him untill then though; we all like a good laugh.
 

mucat

Hall of Fame
I passed my opponent and happened to be straddling the sideline as I watched the ball land. He watched it but obviously his head was moving as he turned. Instead of making a call, he turned back and looked at me as if to say "I think that was out but I'm not sure so I'll go with whatever call you make". I called it out.

Wow, I had the same thing happened to me long time ago, except the outcome is not the same. Hit a passing shot passed the net player in double....let the ball pull a little wider then go for the DTL dipping passing shot, the ball hit the line and I was celebrating. The net player turned his head around and called out. I was so pissed, I had the best viewing angle staring down the line.I didn't question his call but made mental note to not play with that person again.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Wow, I had the same thing happened to me long time ago, except the outcome is not the same. Hit a passing shot passed the net player in double....let the ball pull a little wider then go for the DTL dipping passing shot, the ball hit the line and I was celebrating. The net player turned his head around and called out. I was so pissed, I had the best viewing angle staring down the line.I didn't question his call but made mental note to not play with that person again.

To play Devil's Advocate, he may not have been cheating. He may have seen it out.

Also, he may have been the type of person to dislike an opponent celebrating before the call so he changed his mind to call it out just to spite you.

Bottom line is that I'm pretty sure I have made bad calls as have my opponents. Very few would I classify as cheating.
 

v-verb

Hall of Fame
I'm playing a guy like this in an hour. Anything close to the line he calls out. I almost always still beat him but it's somewhat frustrating.
 
Then I told him to fck off when he insisted that ball had been out and whatever...

Awesome. Rare to see someone with balls to call people out anymore.
If it was 2 inches INSIDE the baseline, this clown needed to be told off.

If you feel bad about the match, feel worse for him.
This is a pathetic loser who needs to resort to cheating to win a meaningless match.

It's not about losing, it's about the satisfaction of telling him to F off.
I would tell the entire 45 person group this guy is a cheater..
If you're not imagining this, you will get at least 5 other guys back you up.

That will be the real victory
 
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Nashvegas

Guest
I passed my opponent and happened to be straddling the sideline as I watched the ball land. He watched it but obviously his head was moving as he turned. Instead of making a call, he turned back and looked at me as if to say "I think that was out but I'm not sure so I'll go with whatever call you make". I called it out.

Same thing occurred in my last doubles match, except the opponent was in your position having tried to take a serve down the line. I thought it was out but I turned first and asked what he saw. He hesitated a second (which is fine... he’d have been right to throw it back at me) but then said it was probably an inch wide.

And my thinking was exactly what you thought your opponent was thinking.
 

mucat

Hall of Fame
To play Devil's Advocate, he may not have been cheating. He may have seen it out.

Also, he may have been the type of person to dislike an opponent celebrating before the call so he changed his mind to call it out just to spite you.

Bottom line is that I'm pretty sure I have made bad calls as have my opponents. Very few would I classify as cheating.

I don't agree with the second point. If he cannot take opponent celebration and resort to cheating, then he was playing tennis for the wrong reason.
He might make a mistake like you said, but given that me and him are at about the same angle staring at the line and the different was he was facing the wrong direction, it should either be a easy call, or he didn't see it at all. Anyway, it was quite long time ago. I enjoy passing net player DTL, totally low percentage shot, but they are so fun to hit (even when you miss).
 

davced1

Hall of Fame
Yeah hooking is bad and it occurs on all levels until there are linesmen. I even watched a tournament at home that was part of the Swedish summer tour with some ATP ranked players and in the early rounds one pretty succesful player was probably hooking some calls. His opponent said not so nice things about this and that he does this all the time but he did not seem to care. It was a really fierce atmosphere betwen the two because of this.

I think the better approach is to be generous on line calls and hopefully your opponent will notice this and you will maybe get one back later at a crucial moment. If your opponent is clearly hooking, do it yourself too, if in doubt call it out and it evens out in the end.
 
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