Seems Jim Courier is on the "Nadal may be GOAT" train as well

[octogon]

Courier was just questioned by the ITV Tennis anchorman in the UK, whether Nadal could be considered the greatest ever, and Courier pretty much said that he might just be, if you look at his achievements so far and the fact that he's dominated the H2H with his strongest rivals (Federer, Djokovic, Murray).

Courier said Nadal can't play any of the other guys in the GOAT conversation (aside from Fedrerer) like Sampras and Laver because tey are in different eras, but his superior H2H against all his main rivals in his era works in favour of him being considered the greatest ever.

I do hope the Federer fans won't rip poor Jimbo to shreds (like McEnroe) for daring to have an opinion that suggests Nadal may well be greater than Fed, and the possible GOAT.

 

[-RF-]

Courier loves to talk. He's a bandwagoner

 

[The Dark Knight]

Courier was just questioned by the ITV Tennis anchorman in the UK, whether Nadal could be considered the greatest ever, and Courier pretty much said that he might just be, if you look at his achievements so far and the fact that he's dominated the H2H with his strongest rivals (Federer, Djokovic, Murray).

Courier said Nadal can't play any of the other guys in the GOAT conversation (aside from Fedrerer) like Sampras and Laver because tey are in different eras, but his superior H2H against all his main rivals in his era works in favour of him being considered the greatest ever.

I do hope the Federer fans won't rip poor Jimbo to shreds (like McEnroe) for daring to have an opinion that suggests Nadal may well be greater than Fed, and the possible GOAT.

Did you ever think that maybe all these hall of famers may just be giving their honest opinion. ?

Maybe up to now there has been a Federer bandwagon ?

 

[octogon]

Did you ever think that maybe all these hall of famers may just be giving their honest opinion. ?

I do think they are giving their honest opinion, but obviously some don't.

Unless it's when they say Federer is GOAT. Then they are just stating the facts.lol!

 

[mattennis]

I've said it thousand times already.

Those who sell the game will always say that the current great player is "the GOAT".

They have to say exactly that to make people want to watch him play.

In 2020 those who sell the game (commentators) will say that the top player ( of 2020 ) is "the GOAT", and on and on and on.....

 

[ScottleeSV]

Jim is entitled to his opinion. Many will disagree with him.

 

[Cosmic_Colin]

I've said it thousand times already.

Those who sell the game will always say that the current great player is "the GOAT".

They have to say exactly that to make people want to watch him play.

In 2020 those who sell the game (commentators) will say that the top player ( of 2020 ) is "the GOAT", and on and on and on.....

You're right. We could have someone who has say 10 slams, and a winning h2h against Nadal, Djokovic and Murray due to playing them at the tail end of their careers. Commentators will be selling them as a possible GOAT and the forums will be flooded with the same thing.

 

[Mustard]

Jim Courier is obviously very impressed with how Rafael Nadal overcame that Novak Djokovic challenge. Courier thought that Djokovic would win.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Well Nadal is flavor of the month. Let's see who is called GOAT after W, then after USO, then after WTF, and so on and so on....

 

[rainingaces]

You're right. We could have someone who has say 10 slams, and a winning h2h against Nadal, Djokovic and Murray due to playing them at the tail end of their careers. Commentators will be selling them as a possible GOAT and the forums will be flooded with the same thing.

That might be Jack Sock you just discribed.

As for courier he might believe it although when Nadal has just won a 8th French open and the interviewer clearly would like a hyperbole answer as well as his network employer, it isn't the occasion to say Federer has more grand slams so he is the GOAT for now, which is the correct thing to say.

 

[NLBwell]

Did he think Nadal was the greatest before this years French Open?
He could certainly make a case for that, but not sure why doing something 8 times would make a huge difference over doing something 7 times and already being considered the greatest clay-courter ever.
I'd be much more inclined to raise my view of Nadal upward if he won Wimbledon or the U.S. Open again or became year-end #1 again.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Well Nadal is flavor of the month. Let's see who is called GOAT after W, then after USO, then after WTF, and so on and so on....

No one cares about WTF. How do you even mention Wimbledon or any of the slams in the same sentence as WTF.

Is WTF worth more than a slam in prestige ....no

Is WTF worth more than a slam in points .......no

Is WTF even carried on a network station .....no

WTF is a nice tournament . But it's really nothing in the scheme of things .

 

[NikeWilson]

Anyone who wins 8 French Opens, 12 Slams total, and has the Career Slam deserves to be considered the GOAT.

 

[tennis_pro]

Take out his wins on clay and look at the h2h's again, especially against Djokovic.

This is what a weekend hacker thinks - well, Nadal leads Djokovic 4-3 in the last 7 matches therefore he's better.

This is what we think - 4-3 and all 7 on clay. Gooby, please, when was the last time Nadal beat Djokovic on a hard court? 2010, was it?

That's EXACTLY what Nadal has been doing in the last couple of years. When it's clay he faces them in every possible tournament. Come hard courts - he catches an injury and is out for 7 months. Until Monte Carlo starts.

 

[Cesc Fabregas]

Take out his wins on clay and look at the h2h's again, especially against Djokovic.

This is what a weekend hacker thinks - well, Nadal leads Djokovic 4-3 in the last 7 matches therefore he's better.

This is what we think - 4-3 and all 7 on clay. Gooby, please, when was the last time Nadal beat Djokovic on a hard court? 2010, was it?

That's EXACTLY what Nadal has been doing in the last couple of years. When it's clay he faces them in every possible tournament. Come hard courts - he catches an injury and is out for 7 months. Until Monte Carlo starts.

He's faced Djokovic loads of times on hardcourts over the last few years. He was out for 7 months once, you act like he skips the grass and hardcourt season every year. He also got to the final of Indian Wells this year but Djokovic lost in the semis. Try harder.

 

[Bud]

Courier was just questioned by the ITV Tennis anchorman in the UK, whether Nadal could be considered the greatest ever, and Courier pretty much said that he might just be, if you look at his achievements so far and the fact that he's dominated the H2H with his strongest rivals (Federer, Djokovic, Murray).

Courier said Nadal can't play any of the other guys in the GOAT conversation (aside from Fedrerer) like Sampras and Laver because tey are in different eras, but his superior H2H against all his main rivals in his era works in favour of him being considered the greatest ever.

I do hope the Federer fans won't rip poor Jimbo to shreds (like McEnroe) for daring to have an opinion that suggests Nadal may well be greater than Fed, and the possible GOAT.

Nadal also has:

• Highest win% versus top 10 opponents
• Highest win% overall (versus all opponents)
• A better H2H against top 10 opponents versus his main rivals (Federer, Djokovic and Murray)

In fact, his H2H over top 10 opponents may be the best in history. I will have to research it.

 

[Mustard]

Take out his wins on clay and look at the h2h's again, especially against Djokovic.

Why would we take out the wins for Nadal on clay? That's just as absurd as saying take out the wins for Djokovic on hardcourt.

 

[Cesc Fabregas]

Why would we take out the wins for Nadal on clay? That's just as absurd as saying take out the wins for Djokovic on hardcourt.

Clay isn't a legitimate surface you know.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Clay isn't a legitimate surface you know.

Personally I don't think grass is . Who the fawk really plays on grass?

The grass season is like a month long . It's just stupid

 

[Bud]

Why would we take out the wins for Nadal on clay? That's just as absurd as saying take out the wins for Djokovic on hardcourt.

Clay isn't a legitimate surface you know.

It's amusing how desperate Nadal-haters have become. They are at the point where they'd like to delete an entire surface - one that has been around longer than hardcourt :shock: simply to negate Nadal's amazing accomplishments :lol:

Does anyone know when the first professional clay match was played? How about hardcourt? No major was even played on HC until the late 1970's

 

[Mustard]

It's amusing how desperate Nadal-haters have become. They are at the point where they'd like to delete an entire surface - one that has been around longer than hardcourt :shock: simply to negate Nadal's amazing accomplishments :lol:

It's very amusing :lol:

 

[The Dark Knight]

It's very amusing :lol:

Hilarious if you ask me .

 

[pds999]

Strange for Courier to say that when he predicted Djokovic would win the semi only two and a bit days ago.

 

[6-1 6-3 6-0]

It's very amusing :lol:

The RNadal-RFederer h2h is 20-10.

Take away clay-courts, since they're RNadal's favourite surface and RFederer is impotent on them.

Now take away hard-courts and grass-courts, since RFederer is the supposed 'GOAT' on those surfaces. ( :lol: )

Then, the h2h is a nullified 0-0.

'Take away clay' is the most popular phrase of RFederer and ***** fans.

 

[Clarky21]

Strange for Courier to say that when he predicted Djokovic would win the semi only two and a bit days ago.

Classic bandwagon jumper. I disregard a lot of what these commentators say because of it.

 

[Mustard]

Strange for Courier to say that when he predicted Djokovic would win the semi only two and a bit days ago.

As I said earlier in the thread, Courier was obviously impressed by how Nadal found a way to win that match and go on to win an 8th French Open.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Classic bandwagon jumper. I disregard a lot of what these commentators say because of it.

And you know better?

Courier,Agassi,mcenroe,Becker ,wilander,Navratilova .......and the list goes on and on.

 

[TheNightHunter]

It's amusing how desperate Nadal-haters have become. They are at the point where they'd like to delete an entire surface - one that has been around longer than hardcourt :shock: simply to negate Nadal's amazing accomplishments :lol:

Does anyone know when the first professional clay match was played? How about hardcourt? No major was even played on HC until the late 1970's

Yes, it is becoming insane and disgusting that they want to go to such extremes.

Why not just ban Nadal from playing? That's probably their next step.

 

[pds999]

As I said earlier in the thread, Courier was obviously impressed by how Nadal found a way to win that match and go on to win an 8th French Open.

Indeed, but I don't think that in itself is enough to consider someone the GOAT when he didn't before.

 

[marc45]

actually was just going to start a new thread on this, and still will because it deserves it, but here's courier with christopher clarey of the new york times talking about the full reign of nadal at rg both in substance and style, great article http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/09/sports/tennis/a-review-of-nadals-look-mannerisms-and-game.html

checked, didn't see it elsewhere, if not, sorry

 

[6-1 6-3 6-0]

Yes, it is becoming insane and disgusting that they want to go to such extremes.

Why not just ban Nadal from playing? That's probably their next step.

RFederer extremists wished for death upon RNadal since the day RNadal stamped his dominance all over RFederer. They wish that he'll be outed as a LArmstrong in the future. :lol:

Soon, making the argument that RFederer is greater than RNadal will be like arguing that PSampras is greater than RFederer. Except PSampras never had a 10-20 h2h with his biggest rival.

 

[TheNightHunter]

Indeed, but I don't think that in itself is enough to consider someone the GOAT when he didn't before.

I think the reason why it is very significant is because it demonstrates that Nadal is responding to his main rival right now (Djokovic) by at least maintaining his superiority in his main territory (Roland Garros). It's a double whammy, because he also denied Djokovic the Career Grand Slam for the second year.

If Nadal can continue responding to Djokovic's threat and winning slams, it's very hard to argue against his case as the greatest player of his era, as he would have come on top of his two main rivals.

 

[TheNightHunter]

RFederer extremists wished for death upon RNadal since the day RNadal stamped his dominance all over RFederer. They wish that he'll be outed as a LArmstrong in the future. :lol:

Soon, making the argument that RFederer is greater than RNadal will be like arguing that PSampras is greater than RFederer. Except PSampras never had a 10-20 h2h with his biggest rival.

You are right. What's shocking is the professed hate by many of them for Nadal. I've never heard of a Nadal fan declaring such hate for Federer. It's more ridicule and derision. But not hate.

 

[Sartorius]

Indeed, but I don't think that in itself is enough to consider someone the GOAT when he didn't before.

Might not be the case with Courier, but catapulting Nadal to GOATness or ahead of Federer (considered GOAT or not) each time he wins something, or even each time he wins a significant match is a practice undertaken especially in the internet scene since 2008.

Nadal will likely continue to do great things but his career does not surpass every other career in history so far and that definitely includes Federer. One thing you is certain though: there's probably never been a better clay court player.

 

[sureshs]

It's amusing how desperate Nadal-haters have become. They are at the point where they'd like to delete an entire surface - one that has been around longer than hardcourt :shock: simply to negate Nadal's amazing accomplishments :lol:

Does anyone know when the first professional clay match was played? How about hardcourt? No major was even played on HC until the late 1970's

They are pretty much desperate at this point as the great players of the past come out and declare Nadal to be the GOAT. They are creating threads asking clay to be banned, that is how badly in denial they are.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Jim Courier is obviously very impressed with how..

....Nadal has now won as many French Opens as Lendl, Wilander and Courier combined!... and they, in their peaks, were all considered the clay gods of the day.

Or even worse... as many as Courier, Bruguera, Muster and Kuerten combined. A group of guys who regularly get support here as being better clay-courters than anyone nowdays other than Nadal. And yet he makes them all look like complete chumps by comparison*.


(* unless you're the sort who buys into "weak era" style arguments)

 

[cc0509]

Jim Courier is obviously very impressed with how Rafael Nadal overcame that Novak Djokovic challenge. Courier thought that Djokovic would win.

I agree what Nadal has done vs Djokovic on clay is impressive, but now Nadal needs to do it at off-clay slams vs Djokovic or not. If Nadal can go on and win a few slams off clay, it will be super impressive.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Courier said Nadal can't play any of the other guys in the GOAT conversation (aside from Fedrerer) like Sampras and Laver because tey are in different eras, but his superior H2H against all his main rivals in his era works in favour of him being considered the greatest ever.
)

Always liked Jim.

 

[spinovic]

One thing that stood amount to me - I don't read that as Courier declaring Nadal the GOAT. He simply acknowledges that is in the discussion. His second point is one everyone knows, when he simply states that his H2H is a strong argument on his behalf.

 

[DeShaun]

Looks like some old timers are showing support for Rafa. It's a given that they know how important to their sport he is. They could be afraid he might not play until next spring again following his second consecutive premature exit from Wimbledon.

 

[bullfan]

Courier loves to talk. He's a bandwagoner

I agree, he's like McEnroe in that regard. It seems he's writing Fed off, and sucking up to Nadal. All the commentators suck up to the latest #1.

 

[The Dark Knight]

I agree, he's like McEnroe in that regard. It seems he's writing Fed off, and sucking up to Nadal. All the commentators suck up to the latest #1.

Why would he need to "suck up "? Maybe it's his honest opinion ?

 

[TheTruth]

Why would we take out the wins for Nadal on clay? That's just as absurd as saying take out the wins for Djokovic on hardcourt.

Exactly. That has to be the dumbest excuse ever typed on the board. Every time it comes to Nadal it's like take out the clay.

Ironically, no one ever mentions take out the grass or hardcourt. So, it's a ridiculously stupid argument and one that needs to be retired. Permanently.

 

[Emiliano55]

Lol, this ex players quotes makes me laugh, they are just a bunch of bandwagoners.

If Roger wins the USO all of them will be saying "oh, incredible he still can dominate the new players at 32 y/o, he is definitely the GOAT".

To me they are just a joke that loves to talk.

 

[Monsieur_DeLarge]

I have my own opinions on the matter, but in simple terms I think context is everything...

Q: "Do you think Nadal could be considered the greatest?"
Many experts have answered yes.

Q: "Who is the greatest?"
How many of those same experts, when not given a leading question, still pick Nadal?


Regards,
MDL

 

[NatF]

Exactly. That has to be the dumbest excuse ever typed on the board. Every time it comes to Nadal it's like take out the clay.

Ironically, no one ever mentions take out the grass or hardcourt. So, it's a ridiculously stupid argument and one that needs to be retired. Permanently.

It's because Nadal's achievements are mostly based on his insane clay numbers, he's barely top 10 for achievements on hards/grass combined. Clay is an important surface and I don't think many would dispute that Nadal is all time greatest clay courter. I actually enjoyed this years clay season more than any other part of the year so far. But when comparing him to the greatest of the greats he comes up short on 2/3's of the surfaces. Constantly reading terribad Nadal fans saying "h2h" and "best win percentage" etc...is annoying when it's largely a product of him being invincible for 3 months of the year.

Djokovic is arguably more specialized than Nadal with most of his slams and titles being on HC. But Djokovic isn't even close to being considered a tier 1 great let alone the GOAT.

I assume I'll be getting stick for this post. But I'll try and explain my point more concisely. Nadal is a fantastic player who has achieved alot, even off clay his achievements are greater than any other player today bar Federer and Djokovic. However for those that indulge in the GOAT debate, finding his numbers overly skewed towards clay isn't exactly illogical, especially considering who he's often compared to. He's the greatest single surface player of all time. And that has an impact on his numbers and percentages. If you take away Federer's grass titles his career is still borderline tier 1.

No one ever mentions taking away grass or hardcourt because no player bar peak Federer was ever even close to as strong on those surfaces as Nadal. No player ever sweeps the hardcourt masters every year or goes undefeated.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Lol, this ex players quotes makes me laugh, they are just a bunch of bandwagoners.

If Roger wins the USO all of them will be saying "oh, incredible he still can dominate the new players at 32 y/o, he is definitely the GOAT".

To me they are just a joke that loves to talk.

What benefit to be a "bandwagoner"? Maybe it's their honest opinion ?

 

[Raz11]

What benefit to be a "bandwagoner"? Maybe it's their honest opinion ?

Perhaps but when their honest opinion involves Federer being the greatest, I'm sure you would accuse them of being biased, invalid and a bandwagoner as well.

 

[mistik]

To be honest ı just hated when they talk like Fed was kind of a god but now even as a Nadal fan ı dont like that they try to downgrade Fed trying to show Nadal as a goat. ( which at this stage he clearly isnt ) The reality is somewhere in the middle. I mean they always play the same stupid game,they will call Laver the greatest again when the dust settles down.Thats why ı never take what they say all that seriously.

Fed fans in my book also needs to say calm stop coming with idiot stuff like if we dont count clay ( desperate stuff )
Grass and clay is the natural surfaces of the game.Hard courts only created because it is cheap.İt would still be a stupid thing to say if we dont count hard courts though.

 

[TheTruth]

It's because Nadal's achievements are mostly based on his insane clay numbers, he's barely top 10 for achievements on hards/grass combined. Clay is an important surface and I don't think many would dispute that Nadal is all time greatest clay courter. I actually enjoyed this years clay season more than any other part of the year so far. But when comparing him to the greatest of the greats he comes up short on 2/3's of the surfaces. Constantly reading terribad Nadal fans saying "h2h" and "best win percentage" etc...is annoying when it's largely a product of him being invincible for 3 months of the year.

Djokovic is arguably more specialized than Nadal with most of his slams and titles being on HC. But Djokovic isn't even close to being considered a tier 1 great let alone the GOAT.

I assume I'll be getting stick for this post. But I'll try and explain my point more concisely. Nadal is a fantastic player who has achieved alot, even off clay his achievements are greater than any other player today bar Federer and Djokovic. However for those that indulge in the GOAT debate, finding his numbers overly skewed towards clay isn't exactly illogical, especially considering who he's often compared to. He's the greatest single surface player of all time. And that has an impact on his numbers and percentages. If you take away Federer's grass titles his career is still borderline tier 1.

No one ever mentions taking away grass or hardcourt because no player bar peak Federer was ever even close to as strong on those surfaces as Nadal. No player ever sweeps the hardcourt masters every year or goes undefeated.

I quit reading here. This is a legitimate surface so it renders any discussion fruitless. When people dismiss a total and legitimate surface their arguments can't be considered (imo). The thing is, this "argument" has gone on so long that many people are actually starting to believe it.