Serena vs. McEnroe Fantasy Match
- Thread starter MatsPhilander
- Start date
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Bobbie Riggs threw that match against BJK. So I wouldn't use that match as any measuring stick.
Yes the hatred is sickening, especially when Mac already proclaimed Serena the greatest female player of all time(even though it's debatable). The Serena worshippers can't let it go just because Mac ranked her #700 if she's on the men's tour. I mean what do they expect Mac to say? Top #5 and 20 slam winners. Ridiculous !
TennisLBC
Professional
@TMF Just in case you missed this from @heftylefty :
From Serena Williams herself she said four years ago:
"The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder. It's just a different game. I love to play women's tennis. I only want to play girls, because I don't want to be embarrassed."
Isn't heftylefty a pretty hardcore Serena fan?
From Serena Williams herself she said four years ago:
"The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder. It's just a different game. I love to play women's tennis. I only want to play girls, because I don't want to be embarrassed."
Isn't heftylefty a pretty hardcore Serena fan?
I just don't see why Mac gets so much heat just because of that one statement. I mean he could have said Martina, or Graf being ranked #700 on the men's tour and I don't think their fan base wouldn't mind. Not that I'm saying it's a compliment, but certainly not an insult.
Yes, hefty is a big Serena fan.
That's a theory proposed by some, but there's no proof of it. It's certainly not an established fact.
It's not like women can't even hit with men, if that were the case there wouldn't be any mixed doubles. And we're talking about a guy approaching 60 here.
Anyway, if I had my way, I'd have Mac win, because I'm a fan. And to be honest I'm not that fond of Serena, since that incident where she threatened to stuff a tennis ball down that lines woman's throat, but whatever. At this point, I'd pick Serena to win, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
But Mac never insulted her in any way, shape, or form. He said she was the greatest female player of all time, and he has said that for awhile now. I don't know why she got all salty over it on her tweet or whatever it was. He didn't say anything that wasn't true.
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Documentary on the Riggs/King match awhile back. If you believe an eye witness account of a conversation Riggs had, then he threw the match for $$$. Other highly suspicious happenings. Having watched the match, Riggs looked to be playing at a 3.5 level. Looked to be tanking.
For McEnroe to win against Serena, he would need to serve very well, and play first strike tennis. Trying to rally with Serena would be a mistake as his movement just isn't there anymore.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
We need to see a fantasy doubles match between Serena and Venus vs McEnroe and Nastase.
She's not. The reporter wanted Mac to take the "female" off the "greatest female tennis player ever", and he explained why he didn't. Greatest female player of all time is not an insult.
TennisLBC
Professional
I am not just referring to Mac's comments. Serena is held to a different standard than other female players. Just reading the comments on this board plays this out. Again, you can scourer the internet and you would be hard press to find an article judging Graf's greatness to her male counterparts. There's even a list of greatest all time tennis player combining men and women where Graf is 3rd on, over Pete Sampras, yet not a peep.
There such a blatant attempt to downplay whatever Serena has accomplished here, it's sad. No one require to like anyone, but this is getting out of hand. I am not a fan of Pete Sampras. I don't find him inspiring, but I don't go around saying "weak-era champ" or "he sucked on clay, so he shouldn't be in the conversation of GOAT" or "Laver would own him if he played in his era". Because it's not only silly, but there is no denying what he accomplished. Why is only one player accomplishments all of sudden suspect?
No-one ever claimed that Graf ect could beat the men or do well on the men's tour. Take your own advice, search the net, there are plenty of deluded articles claiming Serena would win on the men's tour. Often based on little more than the fact she can serve hard.
I saw one claiming she could beat Andy Murray. The guy can return Roanic's serve and people think he would struggle with Serena's?
It is Serena's deluded fans that cause these kind of endless debates.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Please, the one causing these debates is McEnroe. Serena is off tour with a bloody pregnancy and McEnroe is yapping on about where she'd be ranked and whether he could beat her. He needs to shutup and leave her alone
TennisLBC
Professional
That's my whole point. Did you see the quote by Serena regarding playing men from 4 years ago?
If there are these "deluded fans", you should have no problem posting a quote.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Off topic, but I agree with you and Sampras being uninspiring. Most juniors from his era wanted to be like Agassi.
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C
Chadillac
Guest
4.0 isnt an insult, they are decent players. I meant usta, not the euro 4.0 (would mean your bad).
Serena pops up and hits off her back foot against deep slice to her FH. Her shots have net clearance, easy volleys. His serve/xcourt fh would extend her 2h backhand, forcing weak shots.
She would have to serve very accurately, Jmac can return isners serve.
Its a terrible match up for her. Hitting hard shot that cross the baseline arent going to bother him. Someone who crosses the side lines would be able to run him and put on defense, but he would control every point against her
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Can he? When did we last see JMac return Isner's serve? When was the last time we even saw JMac play a current male or female player that isn't retired and on the legends tour? He's 58 now.
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Chadillac
Guest
There was a good video of him and isner practicing. He still hits with pro's.
dParis
Hall of Fame
This so well sums up NPR's Lulu Garcia-Navarro's role in this story.
At least half a dozen times in this thread, probably many more, McEnroe's comments have been characterized as "ranting". I had only read transcripts, previously, but I have just listened to the audio of the entire interview. Some people need to open a dictionary and look up the word "rant" immediately.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
This what you're referring to?
Cause that's from 8 years ago in 2009 which is hardly a good indicator. He would've been 50 then which isn't too bad. He's almost 60 now which makes a big difference. If there's another one i'll stand corrected but I couldn't find any recent stuff of him practicing with current pro's. Just exhibition legend stuff at slams and such.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
Yea, but here is the thing. I don't believe in comparing men and women's tennis, but from what I understand. Serena may have opened that can up with the commercial that suggested she was the number one women's tennis player in the world and then supposedly the commercial went on to suggest she was the number one player in the world which would include men. I haven't seen the commercial but if she did say that, she brought this on herself. She would struggle with men. She basically over powers most women which is fine, but the power she is hitting with would not be a problem with most men. Infact, I think if the truth be told Robby Poole probably beats her on a regular basis and he struggled here a few years back when he played in a 2000 money tourney. So there is no comparison. It's why women don't play 3 out of 5 in the majors and many of the men that aren't up to the task would love to see the majors go to 2 out of 3 sets. I'd personally stop watching them if they did that. Outside of the prize money there would be no difference in the U.S Open and the glorified alta tourney in ATL. So if the commercial exists(I haven't seen it) then Serena brought this on herself.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
I agree with this 100 percent. I'll see if I can find the ad, but if Nike went that far...they were wrong and she was wrong for agreeing to it. She opened up the door for this. I'm a huge Serena fan but she was wrong if she did this and Mcenroe is well within his right to grill her for it.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
I agree with @tennisaddict and @chatt_town . Serena's gotten a pretty big head from her success in the WTA and all those commercials she's been doing. There are definitely much more athletic women than her from other sports.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
I don't even want to talk about the other women in other sports...that's at least debatable. What isn't up for debate is her vs men in Tennis....I believe her hitting partner(Poole) would dust her off. He's getting paid so he wouldn't ever tell the truth about it but he probably would or has dusted her off a few times....think about it...do you think she would be paying him to travel with her if he couldn't make her play? Keep in mind he struggled here in a 2k money tourney with other men. That tells you everthing you need to know.
RoddickAce
Hall of Fame
She's not being held to a higher standard. Jmac said she was the greatest female player. But the interviewer wanted to either boost Serena further or bait Jmac, and he gave his view.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
McEnroe has nothing to apologize for. The "agenda-driven" press (most of whom haven't a clue tennis-wise) took his comments out of context and acted like he dissed her which he didn't.
Even as the female goat, at best she's #750 in the world (and sinking fast) as her pregnancy progresses..
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_(magazine)#Greatest
Where was the outage when this list was published?
Where was the outage when this list was published?
TennisLBC
Professional
Wait! 5 of the top ten players are Women?! This is hierarchy of the highest order. Why is this allowed to stand?
Mac wasn't grilling her though, he was being complimentary. He just wasn't comfortable with calling her the greatest player ever period (as the reporter wanted him to do), and explained why.
If Serena is that much of a narcissist that she is offended if someone calls her the best female athlete ever, I'd say damn get over yourself.
Wow, Serena is WAY down that list. Behind Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, King, and Seles. I know it's a few years old, but wow. Goes against the constant barrage of "Serena is the best ever" we've been getting for years now.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Why should he shut up? He's got a book to sellPlease, the one causing these debates is McEnroe. Serena is off tour with a bloody pregnancy and McEnroe is yapping on about where she'd be ranked and whether he could beat her. He needs to shutup and leave her alone
And a naked pregnant Serena is hardly keeping a low profile
Plus, they both get to be a source of endless debates on here
I'd be much more interested in who's buying his book. And who's buying Vanity Fair.
I'll start... I'm buying neither
ZirkusAffe
Semi-Pro
exactly.. Mac's reaction to the question was spot on that he was like 'why are you asking this?' the approach wasn't very elegant, he was sort of baited into answering it.
700 is better than half men's pros, not good enough for people.. but if he said she'd be top 20, same result people up in arms why 'he' doesn't think she's better... unfortunate reality.
Just always remember Sorenstam playing PGA at Colonial how cool it was that she played a men's event, the height of her career crushing the LPGA ... missed the cut. was cool but reality. went back to LPGA and dominated again.
I got what your point was, I was just making a comment. I was surprised at how low she was rated, I didn't put her there.
I did see the date, but when get to be my age, 2005 seems like yesterday
So yes, you're right, it didn't quite register with me how long ago that is. Makes sense that she's listed where she was.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
well...maybe he wasn't grilling her but I'm sure she didn't like being called top 700 or 702...lol She opened the door if they said...greatest female and then followed it up with greatest ever....nah...that's bhullshit. She wouldn't last in a 3 out of 5 with many of the men playing much less the so called big 4 or 6....or whatever. Again, if the truth be told she'd have a hard time beating Robby Poole(hitting partner)....and he probably couldn't win the TVOC here in Chattanooga now. So what does that tell ya. She gets my vote for best female tennis player ever, but that's where it stops.
Yeah, I mean I'm not even sure I'm comfortable calling her greatest female tennis player ever, I don't really like comparing eras. But there is certainly an argument for making that case, so okay cool. But there's no way I'm calling her greatest tennis player ever, to me that would be nothing more than lying.well...maybe he wasn't grilling her but I'm sure she didn't like being called top 700 or 702...lol She opened the door if they said...greatest female and then followed it up with greatest ever....nah...that's bhullshit. She wouldn't last in a 3 out of 5 with many of the men playing much less the so called big 4 or 6....or whatever. Again, if the truth be told she'd have a hard time beating Robby Poole(hitting partner)....and he probably couldn't win the TVOC here in Chattanooga now. So what does that tell ya. She gets my vote for best female tennis player ever, but that's where it stops.
As for what number she would be, we could debate that all day long. She'd be number 745. No, she'd be number 540. Who cares? It was a little thin skinned for her to get irritated by that, especially since she's never claimed she could beat the top men anyway.
Tennis Sam
Rookie
Just checked the UTR website. There are 2,507 men rated higher than Serena. I don't really buy the cross gender comparisons by UTR, but if you do then Mac was being generous.
maruzo
Semi-Pro
The match up between John and Serena will be an interesting reverse, imho. John probably isn't as strong as Serena, and he probably won't run as fast.
What he lacks right now he will more than make up for with skills and strategies and immaculate shot placements.
Serena's game, while it's sheer strength is unheard of in the women's game, is only mid level in men's tennis in terms of speed and power. John can beat an average male pro today, in his current condition.
So year, Johnny Mac FTW.
But the match, if it happens, is really more for entertainment value than anything substantial. Nor is its effect everlasting or significant.
It'll make for good story and great opportunity to watch them play each other.
What he lacks right now he will more than make up for with skills and strategies and immaculate shot placements.
Serena's game, while it's sheer strength is unheard of in the women's game, is only mid level in men's tennis in terms of speed and power. John can beat an average male pro today, in his current condition.
So year, Johnny Mac FTW.
But the match, if it happens, is really more for entertainment value than anything substantial. Nor is its effect everlasting or significant.
It'll make for good story and great opportunity to watch them play each other.
dParis
Hall of Fame
Motivated enough to post, but too lazy to find the actual GIF...
...Not Sure if Serious.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
gplracer
Hall of Fame
Men and women are different but there is something else too. More men play sports. Just look at the sectional draws in the juniors for the 18s. A lot of the time the girl's draws do not fill up. The boys are fighting to just get in the draw. I think this alone makes the boys draws tougher since there are more players. It is a contributing factor even at the top level. I am not a fan of Serena as a role model or her comments, but she is the greatest female player of all time. When you look at where she came from her accomplishments are incredible.
