Serve techniques less taxing on the back？

[SystemicAnomaly]

Please keep in mind that I advised the OP not to employ a kick serve (in post #14) if he cannot figure out an implementation that doesn't tax the back.

Hm, it's seeming like you don't know much about the lower and mid back facet joints. Your personal observations don't mean anything. The stress on those joints that I'm talking about would not be visible. Also, the lower-mid vertebrae are already arched in their natural resting position.

It isn't really a meaningful discussion. You're going to believe what you believe based on your implementation of the kick serve and watching a Federer video. That's fine. In these times, I don't really get involved in trying to convince anybody of anything. Nobody believes anything anymore.

But my advice to OP still stands. Ditch the kick serve. Develop a good slice. If OP's back doesn't like the kick serve, I encourage him to save his back, not injure himself further, and think about his future health.

Don't know much facet joints
Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book,
Don't know much about the french I took...

Doesn't matter whether I am familiar with facet joints or not. I do know what stress to the lower back feels like. As mentioned, I have a history of lower back problems. A lot of bending forward (to pick up things) can stress my back. Some other activities that include twisting and extension of the back can stress my back. I can perform an implementation of a kick serve that will also stress my lower back...

However, I have also developed an implementation of the kick serve that does not appear to stress my lower back. I know other players with back problems who can execute kick serves without repercussions to the lower back. It appears that Federer can also do this.

Pushing the hips forward, as Jeff Salzenstein advises (post #5), is one of the ways to implement the kick serve motion w/ very little stress to the lower back. Also, heels UP.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Note that the ITF indicates that low back pain can have a variety of causes: postural abnormalities, muscle dysfunction (imbalances, shortening or weakening of muscle), overuse, instability, and articular dysfunction in the lower back. They also indicate that a kick serve can exacerbate this. The ITF provides a number of ways to recover from low back pain. They also discuss prevention. Will try to dig up an ITF link on this.

 

[Pete Player]

The taxin present in lumbar spine in a serve is coming from the upper body center of gravity being behind the pelvis, feet pushing the butt an lower end up, while upper body is trying to preserve it’s position due inertia. Exactly as @mightyrick said.

Jumping up fiercly will add the effect, while profitable would be smooth and gradually accelerating effort, which still adds load to th lumbar spine.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[nvr2old]

The spine is a very complex structure biomechanically. That being said optimal tennis serve mechanics might vary based on the variety of factors including injury, prior injury, age, physical ability etc. Makes it very difficult to advise someone how they best serve. For example myvserve has been the most difficult to recapture after my 35 year layoff. This is based solely on age and prior injury to back and to knees. I no longer have the ability to serve like I used to. While I still can throw, I can no longer use my body and trunk/legs in service motion. As such my serve is an arm serve. Still 80-85 mph but pretty blasé overall. If I want the play more than once a week and be consistent that’s all I have.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The spine is a very complex structure biomechanically. That being said optimal tennis serve mechanics might vary based on the variety of factors including injury, prior injury, age, physical ability etc. Makes it very difficult to advise someone how they best serve. For example myvserve has been the most difficult to recapture after my 35 year layoff. This is based solely on age and prior injury to back and to knees. I no longer have the ability to serve like I used to. While I still can throw, I can no longer use my body and trunk/legs in service motion. As such my serve is an arm serve. Still 80-85 mph but pretty blasé overall. If I want the play more than once a week and be consistent that’s all I have.

Interesting because you mentioned you are still able to easily throw over the fence. If that's the case it means you are using your body to throw -- not arming.

I can't even throw to the fence but still occasionally reach speeds of 80mph on my first serves.

 

[mightyrick]

Doesn't matter weather I am familiar with facet joints or not. I do know what stress to the lower back feels like. As mentioned, I have a history of lower back problems. A lot of bending forward (to pick up things) can stress my back. Some other activities that include twisting and extension of the back can stress my back. I can perform an implementation of a kick serve that will also stress my lower back...

However, I have also developed an implementation of the kick serve that does not appear to stress my lower back. I know other players with back problems who can execute kick serves without repercussions to the lower back. It appears that Federer can also do this.

Actually, it does matter if you are familiar with the back or not. Why? Because YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR. You actually think that because you know how back pain feels... that this magically qualifies you for such recommendations?

Some of your posts are quite good, but I have to say... in this case, IMHO you are being really irresponsible. For someone to say that they have a potentially serious physical condition when he engages in a particular activity... and then for you to recommend that he continue that activity by doing it your way because it feels good for you... or because you do what Federer does and Federer is fine... IS RIDICULOUS. Let me repeat it again... YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR.

Your experience is anecdotal. You are asking someone to potentially risk further injury. Put that one on your conscience.

TO OP ( @GN-001 ). If something causes you pain, STOP. Secondly, go see a real sports physician. Someone who can look at you, see if there are other issues at hand. Do not try the magic @SystemicAnomaly approach. You can risk further injury. Lastly, if you experience pain in a location as serious as your back... don't come to TTW asking for advice. Go to the doctor. The best you are going to get at TTW are responses that will encourage you to risk further injury.

 

[nvr2old]

Interesting because you mentioned you are still able to easily throw over the fence. If that's the case it means you are using your body to throw -- not arming.

I can't even throw to the fence but still occasionally reach speeds of 80mph on my first serves.

Yeah but I think I mentioned in another post that throwing is very easy for me. I grew up playing baseball and actually tried out for the Angels (still waiting for their phone call!). I can stand as I said earlier flat footed with both toes on the baseline and throw over the back fence at my local clubs college courts. Guess I’m lucky in that respect. I’m also 61 though and time has taken its toll on my joints specifically my back and knees so serve and court movement difficultl.

 

[mightyrick]

Note that the ITF indicates that low back pain can have a variety of causes: postural abnormalities, muscle dysfunction (imbalances, shortening or weakening of muscle), overuse, instability, and articular dysfunction in the lower back. They also indicate that a kick serve can exacerbate this. The ITF provides a number of ways to recover from low back pain. They also discuss prevention. Will try to dig up an ITF link on this.

Can you just say that OP should go see a real orthopedist? What you posted isn't what he needs to assist in his diagnosis.

He needs A DOCTOR.

 

[Pete Player]

Just out of curiosity, @nvr2old, wouldn’t the structure of spine be under physiology and the movement and possible positions under biomechanics?


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Raul_SJ]

Yeah but I think I mentioned in another post that throwing is very easy for me. I grew up playing baseball and actually tried out for the Angels (still waiting for their phone call!). I can stand as I said earlier flat footed with both toes on the baseline and throw over the back fence at my local clubs college courts. Guess I’m lucky in that respect. I’m also 61 though and time has taken its toll on my joints specifically my back and knees so serve and court movement difficultl.

I have very bad knees as well. Back is okay but I don't use the back much on the serve anyway.

IMO, throwing distance translates very closely to serve pace. I am getting the same pace as you even though my throwing distance is far far less. If I could improve my throw to over the fence like you I am sure I would be serving well over 100mph!

 

[nvr2old]

Just out of curiosity, @nvr2old, wouldn’t the structure of spine be under physiology and the movement and possible positions under biomechanics?


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

I think biomechanics falls under the physiatrist/physical therspy/kinesiology/sports med umbrella and maybe others I’m not familiar with. Physiology deals with molecular biological mechanisms in general at least when I studied. Anyway complicated mechanisms none the less. Likely not decipherable in a forum like this. For example I have a spodolilolisthesis which is a fracture and slippage of my lumbar spine. Not sure if it was congenital or traumatically caused. Have significant arthritis and pain which nothing short of fairly large surgery with no guaranteed success and possible worsening impairment. As such just minimize pain and alter technique as needed and ultimately not play anymore at some point. I think it’s called “life” and we all get there eventually.

 

[nvr2old]

I have very bad knees as well. Back is okay but I don't use the back much on the serve anyway.

IMO, throwing distance translates very closely to serve pace. I am getting the same pace as you even though my throwing distance is far far less. If I could improve my throw to over the fence like you I am sure I would be serving well over 100mph!

That would be awesome!! Good luck. I’ve been in the 90’s but I get 1 in 10 in so don’t win matches at that rate. Hey it’s all good. We all want to improve.

 

[34n]

OP has a great serve actually. The only tiny difference from the model players is that you actually arch you back.
If you feel that you are freezing in the trophy position, pay attention and try rolling through the trophy position. ( I don't see it on the video but might feel it)
Another one - keep you right hand ( raquet handle ) closer to to your head.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Pete Player

... for you to recommend that he continue that activity by doing it your way because it feels good for you...

Seriously? You are twisting/misinterpreting the intent of my posts. My point was that some implementation of the kick serve tax the back more than others. I've suggested a couple of possible adjustments = heels off the ground & hips pushed fwd. Again, TWICE I have suggested that the OP abandon the kick serve if these things don't apply and he can't execute the serve w/o stressing his back.

Can you just say that OP should go see a real orthopedist? What you posted isn't what he needs to assist in his diagnosis.

He needs A DOCTOR.

I am not a doctor but I play one on TV....

Enough already. It is NOT my intent to provide a diagnosis for the OP. You seem to reading things into my posts that are not intended. I am merely providing information/possibilities that may or may not apply. I have not seen videos of him serving. Nor have I seen X-rays or an MRI of his back. I do not know if he is getting his heels off the ground or pushing his hips fwd when he bends his knees. Nor do I know if he has a muscle imbalance. Again, I am providing info and some possibilities, NOT a diagnosis. Since when is this irresponsible?

It is my belief that it can be more effective to present the OP with sufficient information for him to realize that his situation MIGHT not be remedied with a simple fix. Simply telling some to see a doctor/ortho or physio may or may not be effective. I have done this numerous times in the past in other threads in the Health & Fitness forum. Sometimes the advice is heeded; sometimes it is ignored. However, when you let someone know that there are a multitude of possibilities, they might be more inclined to seek out a qualified expert than simply telling them to go see a doctor or physio. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to determine whether or not they choose to seek out professional help.

If you take another look at the 1st post, the OP has already had his condition evaluated by doctors. Doesn't need me to tell him.

.................................................................................................................................................................... Happy Holidays!

 

[heninfan99]

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Jeff Cooper had an excellent how-to video on this serve. But, sadly, it disappeared on May 1st of this year. Here's another one from Gino (Fava)

 

[Pete Player]

It’s like a shot in the groin. No-one respectfull ever does it, yet could.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It’s like a shot in the groin. No-one respectfull ever does it, yet could.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

You see an underhand serve every once in a while in the pro ranks. But perhaps not this version of it. The 1st one that usually comes to mind is Chang against Lendl at RG. Lendl was annoyed at Chang for this but it is a tactic that he had previously employed a couple of times in his career prior to that (IIRC). Berdych tried to sneak one in against Pospisil as he was being called for a time violation. Llorda used an underhand against Murray at a US Open match. I think that Llorda also used it against Federer as well. Tomic has employed it (but I wouldn't regard him as respectable). Not sure it Kyrgios has also used it. (I've not watched the whole vid below).

Older rec players will sometimes develop the more vicious version shown in #65 and #66. They resort to this serve because their worn-out shoulder will not permit a lot of overhand serves any longer. A standard underhand serve becomes a liability when your opponent is expecting you to use it a lot. So players will develop this nastier version so that their underhand serves are not easily attackable. Players with lower back issues might consider these serves as well

 

[Mitcheson]

Turning and tilting your shoulders and upper body while resisting with the hips creates torque and stress on the lower back. (This was recommended in the past on a golf swing.) A straight take back with tilt but less horizontal rotation will alleviate this but potentially lose some power and spin. I am still seeking an optimum technique repertoire and variety that will get me through a couple of hours tennis with some aces mixed in at ideal moments but without wrecking my back! (I am talking about serving in general not just kick serves.)

 

[Cashman]

I think a lot of players tend to love the romanticism of the kick serve. They love to see the bounce. The kick serve is probably the most overrated, poorly hit serve. It is hard to hit well. It is hard to hit with pace. It sucks in doubles unless you hit it really well. It requires serious back strain to hit it. Regardless of what you say... many professionals had back issues due to their devastating kick serves (even with flawless technique).

Someone else recommended a slice serve, and I agree with that. A slice serve is easier to hit, can be hit on both sides with equal effectiveness, and it is a very good serve to have in doubles. The slice out wide is probably the most effective serve in rec doubles.

Whilst I'm as guilty as anyone of romanticising the kicker, I mostly agree with this.

I do however think it has a pretty big deterrent value. As a lefty, my slice serve is exponentially more valuable if I can kick one down their forehand when they cheat too much. For that purpose, your kicker doesn't even have to be that good - hit it once or twice when they're obviously going to be wrong-footed, and it'll be enough to put doubt in their mind.

It's definitely something I would ditch in a heartbeat if I had back problems though.

 

[liftordie]

Kick serve is definitely harder on the lower back. I feel the pain right now...

 

[toth]

Well, mediocre serves of all kinds can drive some 3.5/4.0 returners nuts. I don't really think that's a function of the type of a serve as much as it is a function of the returner unable to hit a return if they have to create their own pace and not overhit.

I think a lot of players tend to love the romanticism of the kick serve. They love to see the bounce. The kick serve is probably the most overrated, poorly hit serve. It is hard to hit well. It is hard to hit with pace. It sucks in doubles unless you hit it really well. It requires serious back strain to hit it. Regardless of what you say... many professionals had back issues due to their devastating kick serves (even with flawless technique).

Someone else recommended a slice serve, and I agree with that. A slice serve is easier to hit, can be hit on both sides with equal effectiveness, and it is a very good serve to have in doubles. The slice out wide is probably the most effective serve in rec doubles.

o
I am agree that kick serve is to difficoult and could lead to injuries.
However for second serve i do not see that is there an alternative.
Slice serves clear the net low, and natural go to the righty opponents forehand.
If you add topspin to the slice serve you could have ball toss problems and bach arching problem.
At the moment if i lose it is most of all becouse of the lack a decent second serve...