So why aren't red clay courts built more in the US?

tennisoh

Semi-Pro
Really, what's the deal? What are the drawbacks other than getting dirty and it requires a little maintenance? I mean, it is better on the body than hard courts, plays slower so beginners can learn the game better, etc. I just don't understand it. I have no idea where the closest red clay court in Ohio is.

Plus, the clay court season is a decent sized chunk, so if an American wants to become #1, we could use some more clay.
 

Mick

Legend
what happens when it rains ? hard courts can dry quickly but the red clay courts would probably turn into mud courts unless they are covered like at roland garros.
 
Really, what's the deal? What are the drawbacks other than getting dirty and it requires a little maintenance? I mean, it is better on the body than hard courts, plays slower so beginners can learn the game better, etc. I just don't understand it. I have no idea where the closest red clay court in Ohio is.

Plus, the clay court season is a decent sized chunk, so if an American wants to become #1, we could use some more clay.

I like clay courts better than hardcourts myself, but sorry they're not easy to maintain like you think.
 

tenis

Professional
The american will NEVER maintain the clay court after their game (level the gravel and spray it).
 

Supernatural_Serve

Professional
I always drag that big rake around when I'm finished on har-tru (green clay) and push the wheely brush around the lines. Most American (adults) are responsible in this way.

2 of the 3 clubs with har-tru that I regularly play on are watered from under the clay not sprayed from above, so that helps with the maintenance.
 

peter

Professional
what happens when it rains ? hard courts can dry quickly but the red clay courts would probably turn into mud courts unless they are covered like at roland garros.

It's no big deal if the courts are built properly. Believe me - It rains in Sweden too... With clay courts you can actually play some time into a rain since the clay will soak up the water). And it dries up pretty quickly too.
 

maverick66

Hall of Fame
I always drag that big rake around when I'm finished on har-tru (green clay) and push the wheely brush around the lines. Most American (adults) are responsible in this way.

2 of the 3 clubs with har-tru that I regularly play on are watered from under the clay not sprayed from above, so that helps with the maintenance.

its not the brushing. it has to be maintained decently to remain intact and most towns and cities are not gonna spend the money to maintain them. more clubs ive seen are starting to add them as the seniors like them and any national junior needs them.
 

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
It shouldn't be a problem I think. It's not like it never rains in Europe or anything.. Besides that, I think they use clay in baseball as well.
 

tzinc

Semi-Pro
Some Americans have an inherent fear of anything labeled RED.

Some Americans also have a fear of good things in general like free Medical Care and Red Clay Court Tennis.
 
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smO

Semi-Pro
It's no big deal if the courts are built properly. Believe me - It rains in Sweden too... With clay courts you can actually play some time into a rain since the clay will soak up the water). And it dries up pretty quickly too.

Yeah, I agree. It rains in Finland pretty often too and all the outdoor courts are clay. They don't turn into mud.
 

PlayTheClay

New User
In actuality, there are hundreds of Har-Tru courts in Europe and with the weakness of the US dollar, I would expect more to be built in the next year or so. The largest market for Har-Tru in Europe in the UK. There are over 100 courts in England and the first court in Ireland was installed last year. In fact, The All England Lawn Tennis Club (Wimbledon) now has 8 Har-Tru courts with the HydroCourt subsurface irrigation system underneath of them. All eight were originally red clay....in fact the club only has 2 or 3 hard courts and the main reason they are there is so buses can drop patrons off for the tournament and turn around on them without rutting up the surface. The largest percentage of member play at the club is on the Har-Tru courts and not on the famed grass courts there. In addition, there are quite a few Har-Tru courts in Germany and few here and there throughout Europe and into other neighboring countries like Turkey.

There are three main factors as to why you don't see more green Har-Tru courts in Europe; tradition, cost, and knowledge. In no way am I going to say that Har-Tru is any better than red clay, but at the same time, there is no way it is not as good either. As General Manager of Lee Tennis Court Products, the manufacturers of Har-Tru, I am certainly a little bias...but in an objective way, lets look at the differences. Har-Tru has been around since the late 1920's and over the past 80 years, it has replaced most (98% or more) of the red clay and "dirt" courts here in North America. Prior to it's introduction, all the clay courts in the US were red/brown or an imported European product called En-tout-cas. What tennis court owners found was that Har-Tru was easier to maintain, easier to source, more consistent from bag to bag, and dried much quicker after a rain than red clay or En-tout-cas. Therefore, over the 80 years, almost all of the red clay courts that were in the US were switched over to the green stuff. Red clay courts in Europe are all a little different. I have seen courts that were 2 feet thick of different layers of brick and terracotta dust and others, like Roland Garros, that are actually constructed of white limestone and top dressed with about 1/8 of fine brick dust to reduce glare and allow the ball to be set off better to the eye. Most of the clay courts over there use a product from a local brick producer...so as the local product goes, so does the quality of the court. Same thing happens in Mexico, Central and South America.

To further clarify why you don't see more in Europe...red is clay court tennis in Europe and changing the minds of tennis players and tennis fanatics is very tough. Tradition and loyalty are strong persuaders in judgment, even if they are not totally correct. When building a Har-Tru court in Europe, the clay has to ship from Charlottesville, VA where is is mined (it is a finely crushed, naturally formed green stone -it is not colored with pigment in any way) and processed to the proper gradation. Shipping alone can run $5000 to $7000 for the 40 tons (2 shipping containers full) of Har-Tru needed to lay down a 1" thick layer. So if you are comparing prices, Har-Tru is always at a disadvantage to start because of the freight charges. We have seen as court owners in Europe experience a Har-Tru court and better understand the benefits to owning our court, that they are very interested in the product. As labor rates for maintenance increase in Europe,as they have in the US, you will see more and more green clay in those markets.

For more info on Har-Tru, email me through our website at www.hartru.com .

Play The Clay. Play For Life. Play Har-Tru!
 

tennisoh

Semi-Pro
Excuse me for not knowing a whole lot about clay court maintenance, but wouldn't it be similar to caring for a baseball infield? It seems like the same concept, doesn't it? Baseball fields all across America are taken care of just fine while in season.
 

Quattro

New User
Guess I'm lucky. I have 32 Har-Tru courts within 10 miles of me spread between 4 clubs, with 8 more courts be added at one right now.

I love the stuff.....the sliding, the sound, the smell, even the funky bounces and skids off lines.
 

h7hugo

Rookie
what happens when it rains ? hard courts can dry quickly but the red clay courts would probably turn into mud courts unless they are covered like at roland garros.

You haven't seen any clay court after rain, aren't ya?? Rain is the better thing to the clay court. After it rains, clay courts have facilities to use that allows us to play in it, 2/3 hours later....
 

h7hugo

Rookie
Really, what's the deal? What are the drawbacks other than getting dirty and it requires a little maintenance? I mean, it is better on the body than hard courts, plays slower so beginners can learn the game better, etc. I just don't understand it. I have no idea where the closest red clay court in Ohio is.

Plus, the clay court season is a decent sized chunk, so if an American wants to become #1, we could use some more clay.

Probably because the heat...
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Red clay courts are expensive to install compared to hardcourts (and even green clay courts).

And, they need a lot of maintentance (rolling, watering, brushing the lines, etc.)

The cost and maintenance is the reason that a lot of park districts and other public entities don's install clay.

That said, I'm surprised more private facilities don't at least have a couple.

The US, especially in places down south like Georgia, NC and Florida, have a lot of Har-Tru (green clay) courts. The purists will say that these aren't true clay courts. And, maybe they're not. But, I've played on Har-tru, and, like red clay, thay have the advantage of being much easier on the body, even if they are firmer and faster. That alone is reason to like them.

So many American juniors train in the south, so I wonder how the teaching pros divide the training between hard and green clay. Again, green clay isn't the same as red clay, but you can learn clay movement on green clay, which will help on any clay surface. Someone like Capriati and Evert grew up playing on green clay and were never uncomfortable moving on the surface. Courier and Agassi must have spent time training on it at the Bolliteri's, as they never looked that out of place playing on the clay in Europe.

I guess my point is that red clay would be great, but even green clay helps in establishing the American clay game.
 
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Nellie

Hall of Fame
Man - If I could find a club in my area with hard-tru courts. I would go all the time. My hips cannot last too many more hardcourt seasons.
 

Blade0324

Hall of Fame
I am certainly no expert on clay surfaces but in my experience I have played a number of events on Har-Tru and the local club I play at has a couple of Red Clay courts with a product that is brought in from Europe. I can say that there really are only small similarities between the two. I don't find Har-Tru to be a particularly good surface as compared to the red clay. It is faster the ball bounces lower and sliding is certainly different. Basically the only advantage I can see with Har-Tru is that it dries faster than a hard court. The red clay on the other hand is really a dream as far and I'm concerned. Very easy on the body slow high bouncing balls, much easier to slide on. Sure you get some bad bounces no question, but for me it is just tremendous to play on. I learned on Hardcourts and do still like that surface very well but I am one of the few at our club that uses the red clay very regularly.
 

Moz

Hall of Fame
In no way am I going to say that Har-Tru is any better than red clay, but at the same time, there is no way it is not as good either.

Interesting post and thanks very much for contributing from a position of knowledge and acknowledging your background.

In my personal experience I find red clay much nicer to play on than har-tru as I find that the surface is more consistent and that sliding is more consistent and reliable. On har-tru I find that you cannot rely on the court to give as consistently as red clay. I will however, say that har-tru would be a great improvement over the artificial grass and if the choice is between the two it's a no-brainer.

I think you also miss the major advantage red has over har-tru and that is that all the major professional tournaments are staged on red clay and therefore it is the most appropriate training ground for aspiring juniors. This may be a circular argument in a sense but still holds true.

Do you ever find clubs in the UK choose astroturf over har-tru? My suspicion is that the decision makers don't really care about court playability and therefore will choose astroturf. Would be interested to hear more of your real life experiences of the decision making processes you have witnessed in clubs in the UK.
 

cmb

Semi-Pro
I dont know why the clay would have to be imported/shipped from Europe? Its just crushed brick...and we have plenty of bricks in the states. And the maintaining of the courts is not that expensive. At my club in France I never see anyone taking care of it...like once or twice a week at most. Americans have their pride about hard courts and hartru. I think that is the real reason.
 

simi

Hall of Fame
...The cost and maintenance is the reason that a lot of park districts and other public entities don't install clay....

That's the bottom line. Wage cost of personnel to maintain a clay court, and probably the know-how, which a park district wouldn't have.

The only clay courts I've seen here in SoCal are at private clubs, which can afford the maintenance costs. Hardcourt maintenance? Re-painting the lines about once every ten years and replacing the net after the skateboarders trash it. If you're lucky, they will sweep it a couple times a year, especially during the autumn when the leaves fall.
 

Double Fault

Semi-Pro
Red clay is my favorite surface by far. It is slower, so it allows us who aren't looking forward to playing an AO or USO, to have more fun and keep our bodies nice and uninjured.

The huge drawback is that a good red clay court is hard to maintain. For starters, you have to keep buying crushed brick every so often to compensate for erosion. You have to wipe off the marks after each match, brush the lines, press it down, water it, etc. Most clubs down here in South America have someone dedicated to the courts and his only job is to keep the surface playable. He will wipe off the court after each match in a flash and compress it if needed.

A huge advantage is that play is possible 2 or 3 hours after heavy rains (provided there's sun) and, as someone mentioned, you can play well into light rain since the clay absorbs water.

Irregular bounces are a part of clay play, but on a well maintained court there shouldn't be that many of them per match.

The other drawback that red clay courts have is that my beloved white Supergrap lasts only like 2 matches and then it looks like it has gone through Bosnia.
 

Double Fault

Semi-Pro
Oh, by the way, Uruguay has public clay tennis courts at the cost of 2.80 dollars per person per hour. Hard courts are free.
 

simi

Hall of Fame
Oh, by the way, Uruguay has public clay tennis courts at the cost of 2.80 dollars per person per hour. Hard courts are free.

What are those miniature "tennis" courts you see all over the place in Uruguay? They look like tennis courts, but are only about half the size. For a different game entirely, or for youngsters to learn the game?

(By the way, my wife is Uruguayan, so we visit about once a year.)
 

herosol

Professional
blah i dont see why California can't have any.
We have so many clubs, and it barely rains, and the good thing is that when it rains it rains for a maximum two weeks, and then just droughts off again.

we need clay. i want clay. i want to slide.
 

simi

Hall of Fame
blah i dont see why California can't have any.
We have so many clubs, and it barely rains, and the good thing is that when it rains it rains for a maximum two weeks, and then just droughts off again.

we need clay. i want clay. i want to slide.

If you are in the Valley, Burbank Tennis Center has a couple as well as Sherwood Country Club in T.O. Think there are a couple in O.C. too.
 

daddy

Legend
To further clarify why you don't see more in Europe...red is clay court tennis in Europe and changing the minds of tennis players and tennis fanatics is very tough. Tradition and loyalty are strong persuaders in judgment, even if they are not totally correct. When building a Har-Tru court in Europe, the clay has to ship from Charlottesville, VA where is is mined (it is a finely crushed, naturally formed green stone -it is not colored with pigment in any way) and processed to the proper gradation. Shipping alone can run $5000 to $7000 for the 40 tons (2 shipping containers full) of Har-Tru needed to lay down a 1" thick layer. So if you are comparing prices, Har-Tru is always at a disadvantage to start because of the freight charges. We have seen as court owners in Europe experience a Har-Tru court and better understand the benefits to owning our court, that they are very interested in the product. As labor rates for maintenance increase in Europe,as they have in the US, you will see more and more green clay in those markets.

For more info on Har-Tru, email me through our website at www.hartru.com .

Play The Clay. Play For Life. Play Har-Tru!

I respect your position and yes you are a little biased but that is only normal and expected. But as you very well know and have stated above, tradition is maybe the biggest factor which will prevent har-tru from overcoming red-clay and replacing it. It is simply ireplacable at this point with tennis which has such a long history on the red stuff in Europe.

Of course other things which prevent har-tru from being imported are the availablility of red-clay in Europe. Dollar can be twice as low as it is now, many people are not even aware of the existance of the har-tru or not interested in going though a procedure to import it while they can have the 'original' red dirt from nearby with not much effort.
 

daddy

Legend
Oh, by the way, Uruguay has public clay tennis courts at the cost of 2.80 dollars per person per hour. Hard courts are free.

Serbia's public tennis courts are on average 10$ per hour, you rent the court of course, so it is for two or four people ( doubles ).
 

rrhstennis

Rookie
Some Americans also have a fear of good things in general like free Medical Care and Red Clay Court Tennis.

Don't bring your political agenda into this. There are major problems with "free" health care and most people who have a brain understand that.
 

Double Fault

Semi-Pro
What are those miniature "tennis" courts you see all over the place in Uruguay? They look like tennis courts, but are only about half the size. For a different game entirely, or for youngsters to learn the game?

(By the way, my wife is Uruguayan, so we visit about once a year.)

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Here's a pic of what three legal-size clay courts look like (this is where I usually play):

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-34.898278,-56.070528&spn=0.00484,0.011759&t=h&z=17

This is the main clay venue for Uruguay. It is where the Montevideo Challenger is played. Members have a boatload of money each, but they can't seem to produce a decent ATP player. The best we have is Cuevas and Felder can't keep his **** together if it was to save his own life:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-34.885447,-56.060239&spn=0.00484,0.011759&t=h&z=17
 

Mick

Legend
some tw posters don't like playing against pushers. i am thinking pushers would be mighty tough to beat on the slow red clay courts if more were available in the US.
 

daddy

Legend
some tw posters don't like playing against pushers. i am thinking pushers would be mighty tough to beat on the slow red clay courts if more were available in the US.

Chances of getting anything back in play are 2 times better than on hard. The ball trajectory and the courts give you more time though and it is as much about errors as it is about winners on clay but pushers are pushers and if you have no skill to beat them, clay ain't helping you much.
 

simi

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Next time I have a chance, I'll take a photograph. You can see them on the north side of the street on the road that goes from Montevideo to Punta del Este. It's all fenced off, with a high fence. But the courts are miniature in size.

Saw a condo complex with a unit for sale in Maldonado for sale that has a clay court, but couldn't convince my wife that we needed a vacation home. If you ever get across the river, look up Andres Guazzelli. He'll hit with you. He lives in B.A.
 

MariaS

Semi-Pro
Rented a home in Vermont once that had a red clay court. Balls skid a lot. Very dirty too. We have har tru and hard courts and even at my age I prefer hard courts. I already have bad hips so what the heck! :)
 

Double Fault

Semi-Pro
Next time I have a chance, I'll take a photograph. You can see them on the north side of the street on the road that goes from Montevideo to Punta del Este. It's all fenced off, with a high fence. But the courts are miniature in size.

Saw a condo complex with a unit for sale in Maldonado for sale that has a clay court, but couldn't convince my wife that we needed a vacation home. If you ever get across the river, look up Andres Guazzelli. He'll hit with you. He lives in B.A.

Could it be a "bochas" court? I dunno, its something they play down here...
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
to play on clay is not american.

FYI - The US Open was held on clay for three years.

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/12830005cp.shtml

The West Side Tennis Club

Home to the US Open until 1977, The West Side Tennis Club hosted the US Open on grass until 1974 and the only three years the event was held on clay (1975-77). The US Open became a hard court event when it moved to the USTA National Tennis Center in 1978. The West Side Tennis Club was also the home to the US Championships until 1990.
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
Here's something interesting on the topic.

http://www.xsports.com/clay.html

According to the web site, Americans turned to Hard-tru because it was too expensive to ship to ship crushed brick. The crushed brick courts were developed because "Real" clay courts too 2-3 days to dry out.

Also - IMHO - with the tennis boom, most towns and cities would rather pay less for maintenance and install hard courts than trying to maintain hard-tru or clay courts.
 
what happens when it rains ? hard courts can dry quickly but the red clay courts would probably turn into mud courts unless they are covered like at roland garros.

Umm, no.

Hard courts are impossible to play when wet and they dry more slowly. Water doesn't collect on a clay court. It drains. You can theoretically play in the rain on clay. Ever watched the French Open?

I play on Har-Tru here in the states. It's pretty common. Red clay is harder to maintain, slower, and is often imported.
 
I dont know why the clay would have to be imported/shipped from Europe? Its just crushed brick...and we have plenty of bricks in the states. And the maintaining of the courts is not that expensive. At my club in France I never see anyone taking care of it...like once or twice a week at most. Americans have their pride about hard courts and hartru. I think that is the real reason.

I agree, but also feel the same way about grass. It's just grass. Level the dirt and plant the seeds.
 

Double Fault

Semi-Pro
Here's something interesting on the topic.

http://www.xsports.com/clay.html

According to the web site, Americans turned to Hard-tru because it was too expensive to ship to ship crushed brick. The crushed brick courts were developed because "Real" clay courts too 2-3 days to dry out.

Also - IMHO - with the tennis boom, most towns and cities would rather pay less for maintenance and install hard courts than trying to maintain hard-tru or clay courts.

Great article. Thanks for a good read!
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
Just a thought - IMHO - brick is actually a pretty expensive building material now days. At least here in VA, very few houses are made of real brick - just sticks, compressed cardboard, and plastic siding with maybe one side bricked in for decoration.

When I lived in Florida, most of those houses were cinder block - I think cinder block is probably cheaper and easier to lay down.

Taking that into consideration, it may just be cheaper to use crushed granite (hard-tru) which can just be mined, than having to actually make and process red brick for courts.
 
FYI - The US Open was held on clay for three years.

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/12830005cp.shtml

The West Side Tennis Club

Home to the US Open until 1977, The West Side Tennis Club hosted the US Open on grass until 1974 and the only three years the event was held on clay (1975-77). The US Open became a hard court event when it moved to the USTA National Tennis Center in 1978. The West Side Tennis Club was also the home to the US Championships until 1990.

Not red clay....it was held on har tru...the cheap imitation crap.

But the real reason is because the Har Tru company must be paying people under the table so we use their crappy dirt.
 
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