Was he a Jerk?
- Thread starter Attila the tennis Bum
- Start date
Squall Leonheart
Rookie
With all due respect, this is like saying that a ball that lands "like a centimeter [outside] the line" should be called good and the players should "just play the freaking match!"
Gut Reaction
Banned
Actually in league play if a ball lands a centimeter outside the line I do call it good and so should you.
Something that close is virtually impossible for the naked eye to see and when its that close you should give the point to your opponent.
We dont have shot spot in league play so you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the opponent.
Serve and Volley
Banned
actually all you can do is warn. You have no right to call foot faults...rather you can call an official.
Now after calling the official, they must see a flagrant foot fault. if it is flagrant then the official is to also give a warning (or two not sure), if it still does not work then you can call the foot fault.
Serve and Volley
Banned
After re reading the article on page 1 of this post I can tell you that James martin Definitely lied about one thing:
"I had just taken the court for the second singles against my opponent, a dapper Englishman with a yachtsman's tan. "
Rich Callwood is anything but Dapper. He was involved in some sort of an accident and his face is actually a bit disfigured. Furthermore because of this disfigurment his speech is affected and he sort of sounds a little like a deaf person.
Finally he has anything but a "yachtman's tan" as he is just a poor tennis pro trying to make a buck.
James martins credibility just went down the toilet.
"I had just taken the court for the second singles against my opponent, a dapper Englishman with a yachtsman's tan. "
Rich Callwood is anything but Dapper. He was involved in some sort of an accident and his face is actually a bit disfigured. Furthermore because of this disfigurment his speech is affected and he sort of sounds a little like a deaf person.
Finally he has anything but a "yachtman's tan" as he is just a poor tennis pro trying to make a buck.
James martins credibility just went down the toilet.
Gut Reaction
Banned
Wow...its a tie in the poll! Is anyone going to break the tie?
mucat
Hall of Fame
Rich Callwood called foot fault during warming up probably just wanted to warn James Martin that he did foot faulted and should watch out during the match. I think it is well within his right to do so. However, being a bully, James Martin started with the "you want to go outside?" thing.
A foot fault IS a foot fault, it is not a foot right, not foot good, nor foot excellent. IT IS A FREAKY FOOT FAULT. If you did it and and your opponent caught it, be a gentleman and adjust for it. Stop with the "you want to go outside?" thing.
Maybe everytime someone questions my calls or my behaviors on the court, I will just say "you want to go outside"?
A foot fault IS a foot fault, it is not a foot right, not foot good, nor foot excellent. IT IS A FREAKY FOOT FAULT. If you did it and and your opponent caught it, be a gentleman and adjust for it. Stop with the "you want to go outside?" thing.
Maybe everytime someone questions my calls or my behaviors on the court, I will just say "you want to go outside"?
Gut Reaction
Banned
well you broke the tie!
tenniko
Semi-Pro
Wow...
Just one question though, did the author (mention that he) actually foot faulted?
If he actually foot faulted (as well as his captain) and wrote the article, then it's shame on him, I think. Although Mr. Callwood shouldn't have confronted the captain and Mr. Martin in such a way, if you foot fault, and think other person calling your foot fault has some major personality issues, then that's F-ed up on your part.
Just one question though, did the author (mention that he) actually foot faulted?
If he actually foot faulted (as well as his captain) and wrote the article, then it's shame on him, I think. Although Mr. Callwood shouldn't have confronted the captain and Mr. Martin in such a way, if you foot fault, and think other person calling your foot fault has some major personality issues, then that's F-ed up on your part.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I have to say, I would take it badly if someone claimed I was foot-faulting.
I don't think I do, and if I do it is not so flagrant that someone could be 100% certain about it from the other side of the net.
I don't think I do, and if I do it is not so flagrant that someone could be 100% certain about it from the other side of the net.
Gut Reaction
Banned
The full article is on page one of this post. But here is the relevant excerpt:
In my 25 years of playing tennis, I'd never been called for a foot fault during a match (I'm not saying I haven't crossed the all-important white line, but no one's taken me to task for doing it). And during warm-ups? I walked up to my service line. "Don't even think about it," I said. "Don't start."
I returned to the baseline and hit another practice serve. "You're foot faulting," he said. "You can't do that."
By the time the match finally started, I had never been more fired up on a tennis court. And that's when things turned really weird. After breaking him to start the match, I prepared to serve. But he didn't have his racquet in the ready position. He stood there with one hand on his hip. I served the ball in.
"Foot fault," he said, pointing to my feet and shaking his head disapprovingly.
I was as dumbstruck as K-Fed in a library. "I'm taking the point," I shouted, and headed to the ad side. Another serve. He let that one go, too. That was 30-love in my book. Completely rattled, I double-faulted on the next point. Keep it together, I told myself. Serve underhand if you have to, just get the ball in! I was on the verge of hyperventilating by this point, and my arm felt like a lead pipe. But I was able to muscle my racquet up and over my head and meekly push two balls into the serve box, which he made no attempt to return. Two-love, me.
My opponent looked toward his teammate in the lounge as if to say, "Can you believe this guy?" After he lost the first point of the next game, he walked to the sideline, grabbed his bag, and, without a word, walked off the court. "Where are you going?" I said. "Let's finish this." No response. My captain, still playing on an adjacent court, shouted, "Let him go." He knew that our team would get a win. This strange debacle would go down in the books as a simple default.
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Great point!!! Its not just that you dont have shot spot, its also that your not stationary looking up the line the way the line judges are. If you consistently call balls out that you think are a cm out you are hooking your
opponent plenty of times. I'd rather play a few barely out balls than hook my opponent on their best shots which catch the back of the line.
Pros are often wrong on those balls, I've seen many pros stop play because they incorrectly think real close balls are out...how much less accurate are a 4.5 players' than a pros.
tenniko
Semi-Pro
Martin is THE author...
Well, if he was talking to himself, your conversation would make perfect sense.
Squall Leonheart
Rookie
I agree with you, and I do call very close shots good. However, what I meant was that there must be some boundary that cannot be crossed: if that boundary is allowed to be extended by any little bit, then it can be extended further and further untill there is no more boundary. I know this is a somewhat extreme view, but think about it: if someone were to break the law once and were not punished, what would be there to stop that person from doing it again?
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Gut Reaction
Banned
The problem is that the law regarding foot faults is ridiculous.
First of all only "flagrant" foot faults are not allowed. I am not sure what that means but it seems to me that therefore "regular" foot faults are ok.
Secondly even so called "flagrant" foot faults are practically allowed. If someone makes a flagrant foot fault all you can do is gove them a warning. If they do it again all you can do is give them a second warning. If they do it a third time then you can call an official out. If an official see a flagrant foot fault then all he can do is give a warning. If that doesnt work they can finally call the fault.
Do you realize how hard it is to actually win on a foot fault call? With all this warning and flagrant nonsense you basically can footfault without really ever being punished.
Its a good lesson because if anyone ever calls one on you you can respond "Well it wasnt flagrant"
. There is no definition of "Flagrant". How can a rule be enforced if there is no definition of the offense? Its insane!Gut Reaction
Banned
mucat
Hall of Fame
You want to take it outside?
Raiden.Kaminari
Semi-Pro
Haven't seen Ezra post here in a while.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Gut Reaction
Banned
The problem is that the law regarding foot faults is ridiculous.
First of all only "flagrant" foot faults are not allowed. I am not sure what that means but it seems to me that therefore "regular" foot faults are ok.
Secondly even so called "flagrant" foot faults are practically allowed. If someone makes a flagrant foot fault all you can do is gove them a warning. If they do it again all you can do is give them a second warning. If they do it a third time then you can call an official out. If an official see a flagrant foot fault then all he can do is give a warning. If that doesnt work they can finally call the fault.
Do you realize how hard it is to actually win on a foot fault call? With all this warning and flagrant nonsense you basically can footfault without really ever being punished.
Its a good lesson because if anyone ever calls one on you you can respond "Well it wasnt flagrant"
If your opponent is flagrantly foot faulting, you can't call an official over immediately? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
Gut Reaction
Banned
read the rules. Only after a second "flagrant" foot fault warning may you call an official. So basically the third "flagrant" foot fault.
and at that point the Official watches for a "flagrant foot fault" (regular ones are fine). At that point the official can only give a warning as well.
I don't think however that people actually know or follow the rules. So if anyone ever calls one on you then you can just whip out the book. If you are called on a foot fault your question should be :
"Well by how much was I foot faulting"
If your opponent says "about an inch or two"
You should respond "Well I believe thats ok because I dont think thats a flagrant foot fault".
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USTA Comment 18.6 states that one may call foot faults after all efforts (warning, attempting to find official but failing) have been made. This seems to indicate that you can call someone over after one warning.
They also use this wording:
This makes sense, as roaming officials will call foot faults that aren't exactly flagrant.
They also use this wording:
indicating that flagrant simply means: you can see it. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about the degree of the foot fault, just that you need to be sure that it *is* a foot fault.
This makes sense, as roaming officials will call foot faults that aren't exactly flagrant.
Gut Reaction
Banned
Correct. If warning and trying to find an official have failed then you can call a foot fault. Do you realize how hard that is to do???
First you have to give a warning. Then if he footfaults again you can go look for an official. If you cant find one then and only then can you make the call. Furthermore the term used is "all efforts" I am not sure that means one warning. Also maybe "all efforts" may also mean speaking to the captain. The rules make it very hard to make a foot fault call.
As far as the definition of "Flagrant" then basically small foot faults are allowed because they cannot possibly be seen clearly. You have the net in the way not to mention you are returning a serve. Hell I can't even see if a ball is in or out on my opponents baseline from my baseline unless its "flagrantly out". In fact when returning a serve you are standing behind the baseline and you cannot even see your opponents baseline until you start rallying. .....unless of course, you do not even try and return the serve & you bend below the height of the net and stare at the guys feet.
So in order to clearly see a foot fault it has to be pretty damn bad......and I mean real real bad. or in other words: "Flagrant".
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mucat
Hall of Fame
I am issuing you a warning for an insult fault.
Well, your captain started it
Gut Reaction
Banned
I agree. I dont think going slightly over the line is a big deal at all and really gives no advantage. On the other hand I have seen guys hit their toss all the way in no mans land. That gives a huge advantage to a serve and volleyer. Even I would call a foot fault on that one.
But the thing is that the foot faults were being called during the warm up. Thats just wrong.
Gut Reaction
Banned
"Don't [expletive] with me"
Sakkijarvi
Semi-Pro
<I agree. I dont think going slightly over the line is a big deal at all and really gives no advantage. On the other hand I have seen guys hit their toss all the way in no mans land. That gives a huge advantage to a serve and volleyer. Even I would call a foot fault on that one.>
We have a guy in our league that fits the above description to a T. He is a short dude, and seems to compensate well by stepping way onto his front foot, landing way inside the court before striking his serves. It's really blatant, but no one will call him on it.
Sakki
We have a guy in our league that fits the above description to a T. He is a short dude, and seems to compensate well by stepping way onto his front foot, landing way inside the court before striking his serves. It's really blatant, but no one will call him on it.
Sakki
If someone is foot faulting so flagrantly and so repeatedly that you intend to call them in a match- wouldn't the sportsmanlike thing be to warn them in the warmup that they are doing it? Some people foot fault literally on every serve. It seems to me that it would be more underhanded to wait until the points count to let them know about the issue.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
He's cheating by foot-faulting, may as well use it against him when it counts. If he can foot-fault then walk up to the net and hammer your serve into the box and out of play.
kylebarendrick
Professional
I don't want my opponent giving feedback on my warm-up. I don't care if they think I'm footfaulting. I don't care if they think a warm-up serve was in or out. If someone said I footfaulted during a warm-up, I'd simply reply "thanks" and continue doing whatever I was doing. During the match is a different story. Each player has a right to an opponent that follows the rules.
Nothing seems to get people riled up like mentioning that they footfault. It's kind of like calling an offensive foul in basketball. If someone mentions to you that you footfaulted during a match, your first reaction should be to make sure that you keep your feet behind the line. Your reaction shouldn't be to get revenge or explain why they can't call it or throw a fit.
With that said, I really like Norcal's rule that the players can request court monitors (generally one from each team) to make footfault calls. Although the player initially accused of footfaulting generally plays the rest of the match mad, both players have an amazing ability to stay behind the line when they know people are watching.
Nothing seems to get people riled up like mentioning that they footfault. It's kind of like calling an offensive foul in basketball. If someone mentions to you that you footfaulted during a match, your first reaction should be to make sure that you keep your feet behind the line. Your reaction shouldn't be to get revenge or explain why they can't call it or throw a fit.
With that said, I really like Norcal's rule that the players can request court monitors (generally one from each team) to make footfault calls. Although the player initially accused of footfaulting generally plays the rest of the match mad, both players have an amazing ability to stay behind the line when they know people are watching.
Gut Reaction
Banned
I think its actually unsportsmanlike. Have you ever been called for a foot fault? I can tell you its a very aggravating experience. You become very conscious of your feet and loose focus of the match at hand.
If you call a foot fault in warmup its only to screw with your opponents head.
Serve and Volley
Banned
You know I would worry more about actual cheating that goes on. I mean the cheating in this sport is so prevalent its nuts.
I have a really big serve that hits the lines. I know on every big point my opponent is going to call it out. I am so used to it by now I just take it in stride. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it.
If I had my own club I would arrange match play and hire some illegals to call the lines. This way the prices of the matches would still be kept down and the matches would be honest.
Its really insane that in tennis your opponent makes the calls. We use an honor system but there are so many cheaters that it makes me ill.
tennisfan_23
Rookie
Honestly, I've never heard of an opponent calling a foot fault from the other side of the court. And while the author may be biased, this is the only account of the story, and I think that we should go on this and say that the receiver was definitely being a bit strange.
Gut Reaction
Banned
This is probably the most famous league match ever. I propose a grudge match televised on you Tube and no umpire.
The problem is that the law regarding foot faults is ridiculous.
First of all only "flagrant" foot faults are not allowed. I am not sure what that means but it seems to me that therefore "regular" foot faults are ok.
Secondly even so called "flagrant" foot faults are practically allowed. If someone makes a flagrant foot fault all you can do is gove them a warning. If they do it again all you can do is give them a second warning. If they do it a third time then you can call an official out. If an official see a flagrant foot fault then all he can do is give a warning. If that doesnt work they can finally call the fault.
Do you realize how hard it is to actually win on a foot fault call? With all this warning and flagrant nonsense you basically can footfault without really ever being punished.
Its a good lesson because if anyone ever calls one on you you can respond "Well it wasnt flagrant"
The law is written for adults who should know that the word 'flagrant' means conspicuous/glaring/absolutely bloody obvious. If you're standing at the baseline and can see, without a shadow of a doubt, that your opponent is footfaulting then it is a footfault. It doesn't matter if they're three feet inside the court or three centimetres, if you can see that it is an obvious footfault then it is 'flagrant'.
Shosho- there are many players that footfault blatantly on every serve where you can clearly see them doing it from the other side of the court. Not barely touching the line- but blatantly footfaulting. (And full disclosure- my teammates tell me that I am one of them on occasion) The difference is that I realize that people are being generous in not calling me when I do it, but if they started to then I would understand that they are completely entitled to- its cheating to footfault. I certainly wouldn't be a jerk like the author of the article- I would simply make sure I didn't footfault the next serve.
Gut Reaction
Banned
Actually far worse than footfaulting is the outright cheating that goes on everyday. The line calling situation is just terrible. In fact cheating on line calls and footfaulting could all be solved if there were Umps at every match.
Would it be so terrible to have an ump at every USTA match? They do it in every other sport, from football, to baseball to soccer. Tennis is the only sport that is on the "Honor system"
Could you imagine a baseball game without an Ump? Could you further imagine that the batter was the one responsible to make the call on whether it was a strike or a ball?
The current system is inherently illogical. It just does not work.
Would it be so terrible to have an ump at every USTA match? They do it in every other sport, from football, to baseball to soccer. Tennis is the only sport that is on the "Honor system"
Could you imagine a baseball game without an Ump? Could you further imagine that the batter was the one responsible to make the call on whether it was a strike or a ball?
The current system is inherently illogical. It just does not work.
Gut Reaction
Banned
You know thats a funny argument. In the law if you are trying to prove if a person is negligent the standard applied is:
"Given the situation what would a reasonable person do"
Now I ask you...what is a "reasonable person"? Whats reasonable to me may be very unreasonable to you.
The problem with ambiguous terms such as "reasonable" or "Flagrant" is that it means different things to different people and thats why we have actual jurys to decide what is meant.
This goes on to almost any word. For example.... what does "Family" mean.
Some would say it means related by blood. Others would say that a daughter in law is family. While a married gay couple may consider themselves "family". Hell some people even consider their dogs part of the "family".
Absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Serve and Volley
Banned
Yes they are absolutely entitled to give you a warning. But thats about it.
'Flagrant' isn't in the least bit ambiguous if you know what the word means. If you have any doubts, look it up in a dictionary.
No. It's not ambiguous at all. If you see the foot fault, it is flagrant.
There is absolutely NO other way to intepret this other than "visible", regardless of how much they foot fault.
Serve and Volley
Banned
The word flagrant is merely an opinion. Whats flagrant to you may not be flagrant to me.
Besides whats the big deal..... Flagrant foot faults are allowed. If you see one all you get to do is give a warning. Woop deee doo dah !
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Phil
Hall of Fame
I did that once during a doubles match! I didn't exactly walk up to the net, but I got to the service line and then hammered the serve (an "ace"!)-and then explained that if YOU GUYS were gonna footfault a couple of inches or two over the line, then I may as well go all the way.
We all know each other and had played together before, so I did it with a smile. But the guy waiting to receive serve (the flagrant foot faulter) got the message all the same...
Serve and Volley- You don't understand. "Flagrant" is defined in the rules. It means "So flagrant as to be clearly seen from your side of the court". Its just trying to eliminate the situation where you think the person might have touched the line. If you can clearly see with 100% certainty that the player footfaulted then you are completely entitled to call it. (after the warning) You might not like the rule- but thats what the rule is and its perfectly clear.
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