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BrokenGears
Guest
Probably 4th or 5th
Where does Djokovic rank all time on grass?
- Thread starter Hyde
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Rafa's OCD
Semi-Pro
I don't know what to say, that's a very simplistic way of thinking
nobody with a clue is ranking Edberg over Djokovic in any category other than possibly hair
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
The question was not about Wimbledon, the question is about grass, right? That's what the title says. He is more accomplished than them, sure, that's something else entirely. Sure, if there was more majors on grass he might have many more titles, but he doesn't, and they do
JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
Tbh I’d prob still put him behind Federer, Sampras, and Borg obviously
And then behind Mac, Becker and Edberg
Because they had prime/peak ATGs in their way that stopped them from winning a couple more
Achievement wise he’s certainly above them though
I’d def put him above Connors and Nadal now though
But peak level is debatable
And then behind Mac, Becker and Edberg
Because they had prime/peak ATGs in their way that stopped them from winning a couple more
Achievement wise he’s certainly above them though
I’d def put him above Connors and Nadal now though
But peak level is debatable
I mean why not? He is the second best of this generation on grass and can easily beat Federer at Wimbledon. Morever, Federer isn't getting any younger. I don't see any young guns raising up to challenge him on grass yet. And for Nadal it depends on surviving week 1.
3 is possible if he remains healthy and motivated.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
I don't even think Nadal will win that many FO titles from now on and Djokovic who isn't even a year younger is gonna win Wimbledon 3 times?
I guess the competition outside of the big 3 is so bad that it's possible but even there Djokovic is 31, I wouldn't bet on it.
B
BrokenGears
Guest
Grass and Wimbledon are two different things
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Why, was everyone with a clue born after Stefan Edberg played tennis?
vex
Legend
Because I tried breaking it down point by point and it was like talking to a wall. There’s no point in me breaking out stats and in-depth analyse with a low brow poster. You arent Steve or Natf or Hitman or GM, there’s just no point, it’s a waste of my time.
On top of everything you are completely ignoring the giant fallacy in your argument: Novak would have even more grass slams had AO been played on grass as it was for dumpster fire Connors.
Connors doesn’t belong in the same breath as Djokovic. Period. He’s like 3 tiers behind him as a player.
duaneeo
Legend
We're talking grass, not seasons.
Rafa's OCD
Semi-Pro
I watched him many times. Great player, just not in Djokovic's class. The real question is did you ever see either of them?
Rafa's OCD
Semi-Pro
attempt to tailor the point however you'd like, you're still wrong.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
You have to take into consideration the number of opportunities for winning titles on the surfaceThe question was not about Wimbledon, the question is about grass, right? That's what the title says. He is more accomplished than them, sure, that's something else entirely. Sure, if there was more majors on grass he might have many more titles, but he doesn't, and they do
There are barely any grass tournaments left
duaneeo
Legend
You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Okay, so I get it now, Jimmy Connors nailed your sister or something, right? You're accusing me of fallacies while awarding someone mythical titles he's never won. What have you broken down point by point? I must have missed that between your "lololol" and your "Lol no" and your "did he ever beat Fed or Rafa on grass?" or calling me a clown? Maybe it was when you responded to the idea that Djokovic's returning abilities would probably be less successful on less high bouncing grass by pointing out how he neutralized Anderson's serve?
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
We can go back and forth asking each other the same question till the end of time, but I don't think it's going to get us anywhere
That a serve and volleyer like Edberg won two majors on the grass in Australia so akin to todays Wimbledon is pretty ****ing slick.
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
You also can't just award someone titles that don't exist, because it's not that simple. If there were three majors still being played on grass then the game would still probably be filled primarily by serve and volley guys, and a defensive baseliner is unlikely to have accomplished much more than he has.
Deon Sanders
Legend
Top 15 range
Beating Ned the grass trash in the semi finals and Kevin "who" Anderson in a final doesnt move the needle very far
Beating Ned the grass trash in the semi finals and Kevin "who" Anderson in a final doesnt move the needle very far
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
That’s probably about right.
Edberg and Connors both won 4 majors on grass, which younger viewers will not appreciate.
Mac and Becker with their 3 W titles are still above Novak Djokovic due to facing stronger competition and being naturally better grass courters.
So we can give Novak Djokovic 8th place in the Open Era on grass.
All time, the likes of Tilden, Perry, Budge, Laver and others stand above him also.
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Nadal_Django
Legend
If the competition is some kind of the criteria then what the hell is Federer doing in the top 5 grass courters of all time.
Edberg higher for sure.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
Don't mean to be rude but I'm yet to see Djokovic play grass court tennis I've seen him on grass but never seen him play grass court tennis. Grass ended around 2000. This stuff they csll grass now is closer to Med HC. And in a way I'm happy with that as otherwise Wimbledon Gentlemens singles would be as awesome as the lsdied with 1 of 10 making R64. Maybe should reset the counter from 2001 onwards he's 2nd after Federer with Nadal or Murray 3rd.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
I do not know what to say. I love and loved jimmy connors and djokovic is a new and improved jimmy connors on grass. Cyborg in the mould of jimmy connors. This is beyond me. Is this a tennis historian thing? A fed fan where only fed or sampras know how to play on grass? Jmac? Borg? Im stumped on this.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Why do you always overrate players from the past? This is the less objective comment I have ever read in TTW.
Edberg and Connors only have 2 Wimbledon titles and you are putting them ahead of Djokovic who has twice as many titles? MacEnroe and Becker have 3 Wimbledon titles.
You can make all the subjective arguments you want about competition/surfaces and whatever. The only objective fact is that 4>3> 2.
Djokovic is closer to Borg than any of those you mention with less than 4 Wimbledon titles.
Pheasant
Legend
To me, peak means a ton. Borg won 5 consecutive Wimbledon titles(tied with Fed) and went to 6 consecutive finals(1 short of Fed's record). Let's say that Djokovic wins his 6th Wimbledon title in 2023. That would mean that it took him 13 years to win 6 titles whereas Borg needed only 5 to win 5. In this scenario, I'd still easily give this to Borg. This is no knock on Djokovic. Of course, if Djokovic ran off 6 straight finals appearances(starting with this year), then I would nudge Djoker ahead of Borg.
Let's see what happens here. But for now, Djoker seems like a solid #4 guy. FWIW, I think that Becker is the type of guy that would have troubled Djokovic HTH on grass. Boom Boom was awesome on grass. But it's tough to argue against Djokovic's accomplishments.
Djoker gets the #4 spot for now.
Let's see what happens here. But for now, Djoker seems like a solid #4 guy. FWIW, I think that Becker is the type of guy that would have troubled Djokovic HTH on grass. Boom Boom was awesome on grass. But it's tough to argue against Djokovic's accomplishments.
Djoker gets the #4 spot for now.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I'd be interested to hear @NatF's views on this.
Below peak Arod for sure
On a serious note it's tough because his number of Wimbledon titles clashes with my perception of how he compares to players like McEnroe, Becker and Edberg. It's probably the same reason people think Sampras > Federer on grass still, subjectively style matters a lot.
All time obviously includes pre-OE as well, off the top of my head I'd put him below Federer, Sampras, Laver, Borg, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Newcombe, Tilden, McEnroe and Becker.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Wow, that's quite a lot of players you still have above him. Would it be sacrilegious to say he now has a good argument of at least being ahead of Becker and McEnroe in terms of players from the Open Era?Below peak Arod for sure
On a serious note it's tough because his number of Wimbledon titles clashes with my perception of how he compares to players like McEnroe, Becker and Edberg. It's probably the same reason people think Sampras > Federer on grass still, subjectively style matters a lot.
All time obviously includes pre-OE as well, off the top of my head I'd put him below Federer, Sampras, Laver, Borg, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Newcombe, Tilden, McEnroe and Becker.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Bill Tilden, graphic description:Below peak Arod for sure
On a serious note it's tough because his number of Wimbledon titles clashes with my perception of how he compares to players like McEnroe, Becker and Edberg. It's probably the same reason people think Sampras > Federer on grass still, subjectively style matters a lot.
All time obviously includes pre-OE as well, off the top of my head I'd put him below Federer, Sampras, Laver, Borg, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Newcombe, Tilden, McEnroe and Becker.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Of course he does have arguments with the extra Wimbledon, it's just my opinion. It's not that many players considering that list goes back 100 years...
Both Becker and McEnroe have 4 Queens titles to go with their Wimbledon's and Becker has 3 more finals that Djokovic too. So I don't think I'm being unfair
Bill Tilden, graphic description:
In 50 years time I hope to be educating people on the greatness of Nadal on clay as well.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Heck, that's like saying that Wilander is as good of a grasscourter as Nadal just because he won 2 AO titles on grass despite not passing the QF at Wimb.
Wimb is the barometer for grass greatness. It's the only slam that has stayed on grass since its creation.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Let's not go overboard. Not too long ago he barely avoided upsets against Cilic and Anderson and was actually upset by Querrey.
Djokovic has never beaten Federer easily at Wimb.
Thr guy went 2 years without winning Wimb and suddenly he'll match Sampras. Get a grip
mike danny
Bionic Poster
As of now I rank him behind Federer, Sampras and Borg. So he is 4th.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
This. Wimbledon is seen as the centerpiece and holy grail of tennis which means it's more pressure and more at stake. That's the reason a player like Wilander did well at AO and beat players like McEnroe and Edberg and didn't do well at all at Wimbledon. I would like to know how much differently the grass at AO played in comparison to the grass at Wimbledon because Wilander's record at both tournaments is like night and day.
World Beater
Hall of Fame
lots of bias against novak because he plays mostly from the baseline...
people rating becker and edberg above him? really? i can understand mcenroe but its still a tough sell.
lets not forget he has 5 finals (lost to murray).
djokovic beat a decent fed twice in finals! Nadal once! these are all time champions.
his runs have been very impressive.
people rating becker and edberg above him? really? i can understand mcenroe but its still a tough sell.
lets not forget he has 5 finals (lost to murray).
djokovic beat a decent fed twice in finals! Nadal once! these are all time champions.
his runs have been very impressive.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He beat Nadal twice. The semi this year was the de-facto final.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
But that's like saying Roger's Australian Open titles are meaningless for describing his hard court prowess.
Surely you can see the double-standard you just set?
eldanger25
Hall of Fame
I'm going to limit my answer to Wimbledon, since it isn't particularly fair to either Novak or guys like Connors/Edberg to look at grass as a whole given generational differences (for instance, Novak would have more grass court majors if Australia was still on grass, but Jimmy would have more too if he had played the AO more than 2x in his career).
Anyway, 4 titles in 8 seasons is huge. I think he's past Mac and Becker (who may've only had two Wimbledons if Curren hadn't redlined against Connors in the 1985 semi: teenaged Becker v. aging Connors - two strutting peacocks, the great server versus the great returner - for the 1985 Wimbledon title is maybe my great lost match of the Open Era).
Anyway, 4 titles in 8 seasons is huge. I think he's past Mac and Becker (who may've only had two Wimbledons if Curren hadn't redlined against Connors in the 1985 semi: teenaged Becker v. aging Connors - two strutting peacocks, the great server versus the great returner - for the 1985 Wimbledon title is maybe my great lost match of the Open Era).
If the competition is some kind of the criteria then what the hell is Federer doing in the top 5 grass courters of all time.
When it comes to Fedr, number of titles matters
At least Djokovic has to beat federer twice.
justasport
Professional
1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Djokovic
5. Becker
6. McEnroe
7. Edberg
8. Nadal
9. Murray
10. Connors
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Djokovic
5. Becker
6. McEnroe
7. Edberg
8. Nadal
9. Murray
10. Connors
Rafa's OCD
Semi-Pro
peak Djokovic would annihilate peak Edberg
clout
Hall of Fame
In addition to Wimbledon these would be my top 10 rankings for each major (open era only):
Australian Open:
1. Federer
2. Djokovic
3. Agassi
4. Wilander
5. Edberg
6. Lendl
7. Sampras
8. Nadal
9. Courier
10. Rosewall
Honourable Mentions: Becker, Laver and Newcombe
French Open:
1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Wilander
4. Lendl
5. Kuerten
6. Courier
7. Federer
8. Djokovic
9. Bruguera
10. Vilas
Honourable Mentions: Agassi, Kodes, Laver and Rosewall
US Open:
1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Connors
4. McEnroe
5. Lendl
6. Nadal
7. Agassi
8. Djokovic
9. Edberg
10. Rafter
Honourable Mentions: Laver, Rosewall and Borg
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D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Solid lists
T
Tiki-Taka
Guest
Somewhere around McEnroe and Becker. You could make a case for any of them being fourth of the Open Era.
Novak's roads to his Wimbledon titles haven't been easy at all to be honest so he deserves a lot of praise for winning four...
Novak's roads to his Wimbledon titles haven't been easy at all to be honest so he deserves a lot of praise for winning four...
duaneeo
Legend
Every road to the final has been easy for Djokovic.
In 2011, 2014, and 2015 he kept facing the same 4 players to reach the final...Tomic (2011, 2015), Tsonga (2011, 2014), Cilic (2014, 2015), and Anderson (2011, 2015...and who Djokovic would beat in the final in 2018). To reach the true final this year (the semis), he faced a few mugs, a few NextGens still developing, and punching bag Nishikori.
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